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Title: The Two Shall Become One Flesh
Source:
First Things
URL Source: https://www.firstthings.com/article ... ne-flesh-reclaiming-marriage-2
Published: Feb 26, 2015
Author: Evangelicals & Catholics Together
Post Date: 2015-02-26 22:04:36 by redleghunter
Ping List: *Religious History and Issues* Subscribe to *Religious History and Issues*
Keywords: None
Views: 37408
Comments: 194
In the Gospel of St. Mark, the Lord Jesus teaches that “from the beginning of creation ‘God made them male and female.’” He then declares a great and beautiful truth inscribed in creation: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh” (Mark 10:6–8). For centuries, Christians have proclaimed these words at weddings, for they express the gift of marriage long recognized by all humanity and acknowledged by men and women of faith: Marriage is the union of a man and a woman. This truth is being obscured, even denied, today. Because of that, the institution of marriage, which is essential to the well-being of society, is being undermined. As Christians, it is our responsibility to bear witness to the truth about marriage as taught by both revelation and reason—by the Holy Scriptures and by the truths inscribed on the human heart. These age-old truths explain why Christians celebrate marriage—the coming-together of a man and woman in a binding union of mutual support—as one of the glories of the human race. Marriage is the primordial human institution, a reality that existed long before the establishment of what we now know as the state. As the most venerable and reliable basis for domestic happiness, marriage is the foundation of a just and stable society. Yet in our times this institution has been gravely weakened by the sexual revolution and the damage it has done to marriage and the family: widespread divorce; the dramatic increase in out-of-wedlock births; the casual acceptance of premarital sex and cohabitation; and a contraceptive mentality which insists that sex has an arbitrary relation to procreation. In this environment, families fragment, the poor suffer, and children are especially vulnerable and at risk. The decline of marriage culture is evident throughout the world, and where it is evident, the common good is imperiled. Poster Comment: God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply.” (Gen. 1:27–28)
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#46. To: redleghunter (#43)
Do you believe in absolutes? Very likely in the same manner as you. Why do you ask? Then why do you comment as if you don't? Be specifc. What comment(s) exactly?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
The equal footing you put with gay "marriage" compared to historical marriage. Either the one or the other is right but not both. And why does even secular government support both while knowing it is either one or the other. Both can't be right.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
All traditional religions (and followers therof) are victim of the same caricature; you can not escape the conundrum, no matter how much effort you place in escaping the enigmatic experience of consciousness; you are creating god within your own mind.
A presupposition on your part. The Scriptures are God's revelation to mankind. Unless you have examined such your comments will continue to be suppositions and assertions. Assertions are not arguments.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
The equal footing you put with gay "marriage" compared to historical marriage. Either the one or the other is right but not both. I have done no such thing. If you bothered to read my comments I never used the term gay marriage but rather civil union. You know full well that I make a clear distinction between civil union and marriage. The former being a state sanctioned/recognized form of contract or formal relationship, the latter being the same thing but with a voluntarily religious or spiritiual formality to it. You also know full well that every religious marriage is first and foremost a civil union. I never equated civil union to marriage as traditionally defined by religious institutions or even to historical marraige. As for for historical marriage, was it not common in most of the known world in more ancient times for a man to have more than one wife? Times changed, no? I find your pursuit of this line of attack at bit disingenuous on your part.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Just as your Bible is nothing more than an "assertion." You regard the assertion as "truth." But there is no proof other than a myth that you genuinely follow; it is a problem but you hide from within your own antics.
Was not an attack but a discussion point.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
You knowingly put words in my mouth that you know were not true. That's more than a discussion point.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Proof is subjective. Evidence is objective. That just may be a stumbling block for you.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I said this: You said that: So lets parse what I said to understand the context... Just as your Bible is nothing more than an "assertion." You regard the assertion as "truth." But there is no proof other than a myth that you genuinely follow; Did you not know what a "myth" is? Lets get a merriam-webster definition of "myth" ... Full Definition of MYTH b : parable, allegory 2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society b : an unfounded or false notion 3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence 4 : the whole body of myths So, your later reply was silly, at best, as it did not add to the discussion. In fact, your later reply actually subdues any merits of your discussion while supporting my contention. You blew your own argument, I guess you can say.
No your premise is based on your subjective opinion. Show me how the scriptures are myth.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Genesis 1:1New International Version (NIV) The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. New International Version (NIV) Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
What evidence are you providing in rebuttal to God?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
As your "Bible" absolutely suggests, "NONE." It is a myth that is suggested in the Bible; afterwards, the myth is expanded beyond bound.
Still not presenting evidence to refute. Come on there are hundreds of Muslim and atheist sites with specious assertions you could mimic here. Give it a try.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
You think that's him? No way.
Multigenerational reproductive success is what determines socibiological fitness. What's love got to do with that?
I believe water freezes at 32 degrees F just as two eggs or two sperm cannot create a viable human offspring.
What's love got to do with that? So infertile people are unsocibiologically fit, worthless junk?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Well in the U.K. it now can take three to tango, two biological Moms and one Dad. Who knows what science and/or God has in store for us?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV) 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
And your point is what?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I thought it would be self apparent.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
It is not. What does the quote have to do with the state granting civil union status to gays?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Strong delusion.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Is it delusional to think that gays are entitled to the same civil rights as straights? Do you really believe that God commands us to deny gays their due civil rights? If so we do not pray to the same God.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I haven't attempted to refute anything. Why should I bother with your recommendations? I am not attempting to suggest anything other than you have delusions in a religious or traditional GOD. I do not share your belief is all and you can't convince anyone that you have a rightous faith about GOD other than little, self-created devils running within you.
Science will render Abomination, and God His justice in response -- Naturally.
That would depend upon their behavior, and whether they worship themselves more than they obey the laws of Nature.
Should men be afforded the same civil rights to become pregnant? How about those women cornering that market?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
The answer seems evident as God created woman to give birth not man. You probably need to brush up on your Genesis story. But if a man could become pregnant please cite the law(s) that would deny him the same civil rights as the state grants to a pregnant woman. But you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that God commands us to deny gays the same civil rights as the state deems/grants to straights? If not, then what delusion(s) is involved in the state granting gays the same civil right to a state recognized civil union as it does for straights?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So infertile people are unsocibiologically fit, worthless junk? That would depend upon their behavior, and whether they worship themselves more than they obey the laws of Nature. Then please define what you mean by socibiologically fit.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
No my line of questioning is correct. Two people of the same gender demanding equal protections for something that is not for people of the same gender is akin to man demanding the government recognize he should be and can be able to become pregnant. It is absurd to apply marriage to a civil right for those who don't qualify to be married. If the state wants to provide a legal standing in order for non-married same gender persons or even opposite gender aquaintances to enter into a financial, legal or estate contract, then that is up to the state. But that ain't marriage.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Who says they don't qualify for the civil right of a civil union? We do not live in a theocracy. We live in a secular republic in which all men are equal under the law - the only reason the State can deny a right grant to all to a specific class of people is if the State can put forth a compelling reason on a issue by issue basis and have the courts approve it (as the State has done for bigamy). "If the state wants to provide a legal standing in order for non-married same gender persons or even opposite gender aquaintances to enter into a financial, legal or estate contract, then that is up to the state. But that ain't marriage." Currently, as it always has been in the U.S., what the State sanctions and recognizes as, and calls marriage, is in fact not what the various religions call marriage. The State does not deal in Sacraments, it deals in civil sanctions, civil rights irrespective of what the Pope or Sharia Law has to say about the matter. Obey your God and render unto Caeser what is Caesar's. Let God be the judge of who violates His laws. Now if you can convince the State to present a compelling reason for it to deny gays the exact recognition and legal status of the civil union (otherwise called marriage) that it grants to straights have at it. If the courts agree then you are home free. But it is clear that the State cannot present such a compelling argument which would be acceptable under the U.S. Constitution and have the courts so rule. POTUS is not God. SCOTUS is not God. The U.S. Constitution is not Holy Scripture. You are entitled to your opinions on the matter. You are entitled to campaign, lobby, organize, protest, picket, disrupt, and, otherwise stir up the pot to the fullest extent of the law and even beyond. But in the end, you live in a country that is ruled by the laws of men not the Laws of God. And you are certainly free to disobey the laws of man in preference to what you believe is the Laws of God. Just be prepared to pay the secular consequences when you do. In this country the issue of what you call marriage, which is a secular thing sanctioned by the State, is nothing more than a codified secular recognition of a civil union of no religious meaning. The Church(s) adopt what the State sanctions and for its own religious reasons endows this secular State sanctioned union with a religious component that is only relevant to that Church. In the eyes of the State there is absolutely no difference between the civil union it grants to a couple and the civil union which the State allows a Church to grant to a couple and to embellish with its own religious meaning - they are exactly the same under the law. It is amazing that you cannot grasp this concept in a country where the State has so liberally sanctioned abortion. Have you, I, the Church, or even the opinion of 50%+ of the U.S. people stopped the legalization of abortion? So I say to you again, obey your God and render unto Caeser what is Caesar's and let God be the judge. He knows what to do. If you are compelled to do something I suggest getting the Church to refer to the Sacrament of Marriage as Holy Matrimony which is the sacramental joining together of a man and woman as husband and wife (or whatever term best conveys the meaning). Let the State keep the term marriage for its secular civil union. If memory serves there are just a handful (if any) usage of the word marriage itself in the NT, whatever references there are consist of the usage of the word marry.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You're doing mental gymnastics in order to try and say that it is ok for the government to impose Sodomite immorality on the nation because it isn't really sodomite immorality. It's really Apple Pie and Justice for all.
Nope. Pebbles, you are wrong. The US government has migrated to policies that literally explore additional taxbases by ensuring all people into the citizenry by granting limited rights or priviledges. It is similar to US government policies for accepting illegal immigration. FACT: The nation is broke. THE POLITICAL SOLUTION: Let's get everyone on the bandwagon while we can! US Government is not about morality issues other than revenue streams that may further control the populice.
Are you kidding? Are you saying that the government is forcing people to be gay or to engage in homosexual activities or even accept it? Come on, you are more intelligent than that. Are you familiar with the terms "pursuit of happiness"? Where in the U.S. Constitution grants you or I or anyone to power to legislate to someone what their happiness MUST be? However, there is one very, very simple solution to your rejection of the U.S. Constitution as applied to gays. Just get homosexuality declared illegal in the U.S. Bingo! That's all you need to do. BTW, what is your mental gymnastics that allows you to tolerate legalized abortion in the U.S.?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You certainly are a one trick pony with a hammer that sees every issue as a nail.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So I say to you again, obey your God and render unto Caeser what is Caesar's and let God be the judge. He knows what to do. Do you really think Jesus Christ meant 'rendering to Caesar' means murdered babies? Jesus called for a coin, not a baby. NO. Unless you think child sacrifice is what the founders had in mind. Any nation devoid of absolute moral standards have failed and will continue to fail. Our Western world has embraced humanism (man is at the center of all things), materialism (what we make or do we worship) and relativism (there are no absolutes only individual particulars). It is the destructive recipe which destroyed previous civilizations.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I don't believe Jesus said to give one cent to Rome. He said to give to Caesar what is Ceesars. The fruit of your labor is not Caesars.
Comments (87 - 194) not displayed.
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#47. To: SOSO (#46)
#48. To: redleghunter (#45)
It has been the pagan hedonist way since the fall of man.
#49. To: Pridie.Nones (#48)
All traditional religions (and followers therof) are victim of the same caricature; you can not escape the conundrum, no matter how much effort you place in escaping the enigmatic experience of consciousness; you are creating god within your own mind.
#50. To: redleghunter (#47)
#51. To: redleghunter (#49)
#52. To: SOSO (#50)
#53. To: redleghunter (#52)
Was not an attack but a discussion point.
#54. To: Pridie.Nones (#51)
#55. To: redleghunter (#54)
Just as your Bible is nothing more than an "assertion." You regard the assertion as "truth." But there is no proof other than a myth that you genuinely follow; it is a problem but you hide from within your own antics.
Proof is subjective.
Evidence is objective.
That just may be a stumbling block for you.
1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
#56. To: Pridie.Nones (#55)
#57. To: redleghunter (#56)
#58. To: Pridie.Nones (#57)
#59. To: redleghunter (#58)
#60. To: Pridie.Nones (#59)
#61. To: Pridie.Nones (#55)
3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
#62. To: A K A Stone (#61)
#63. To: SOSO (#27)
What is the biological, natural facts about love?
#64. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#46)
Do you believe in absolutes?
#65. To: VxH (#63)
Multigenerational reproductive success is what determines socibiological fitness.
#66. To: VxH, redleghunter (#64)
........just as two eggs or two sperm cannot create a viable human offspring.
#67. To: SOSO (#66)
#68. To: redleghunter (#67)
#69. To: SOSO (#68)
#70. To: redleghunter (#69)
I thought it would be self apparent.
#71. To: SOSO (#70)
#72. To: redleghunter (#71)
Strong delusion.
#73. To: redleghunter (#60)
Still not presenting evidence to refute.
Come on there are hundreds of Muslim and atheist sites with specious assertions you could mimic here. Give it a try.
#74. To: SOSO (#66)
Who knows what science and/or God has in store for us?
#75. To: SOSO (#65)
So infertile people are unsocibiologically fit, worthless junk?
#76. To: SOSO (#72)
Is it delusional to think that gays are entitled to the same civil rights as straights? Do you really believe that God commands us to deny gays their due civil rights? If so we do not pray to the same God.
#77. To: redleghunter (#76)
Should men be afforded the same civil rights to become pregnant?
#78. To: VxH (#75)
#79. To: SOSO (#77)
But you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that God commands us to deny gays the same civil rights as the state deems/grants to straights? If not, then what delusion(s) is involved in the state granting gays the same civil right to a state recognized civil union as it does for straights?
#80. To: redleghunter (#79)
It is absurd to apply marriage to a civil right for those who don't qualify to be married.
#81. To: SOSO (#80)
#82. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#81)
You're [SOSO] doing mental gymnastics in order to try and say that it is ok for the government to impose Sodomite immorality on the nation because it isn't really sodomite immorality. It's really Apple Pie and Justice for all.
#83. To: A K A Stone (#81)
You're doing mental gymnastics in order to try and say that it is ok for the government to impose Sodomite immorality on the nation because it isn't really sodomite immorality.
#84. To: Pridie.Nones, A K A Stone (#82)
The US government has migrated to policies that literally explore additional taxbases............
#85. To: SOSO, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, A K A Stone, liberator (#80)
It is amazing that you cannot grasp this concept in a country where the State has so liberally sanctioned abortion. Have you, I, the Church, or even the opinion of 50%+ of the U.S. people stopped the legalization of abortion?
#86. To: redleghunter (#85)
Do you really think Jesus Christ meant 'rendering to Caesar' means murdered babies? Jesus called for a coin, not a baby.
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