these Republicans whom you extol, whom you permit yourself to vomit bile on everybody who criticises them - these Republicans HATE Trump, whereas I have been in his camp all along.

That isn't true. I praise Republicans like Rand Paul. Like Jim Jordan and the Meadows fellow. Even Mitch is doing good things.

Not the Romneys whom I never liked. Not the Mccains. Not the Susan Collins. You know not the more progressive ones.

Because the word lists are clear, somebody can always simply mass replace one word with another, but the point is that the words are the words, and the translator doesn't get any choices - to make something theological.

"In origin was the word and the word was with the divine and divine was the word."

The root of "theos" is "heaven" or "bright sky", across many languages - thus, the association of "the divine" with the sky itself (which in the greek is "ouranos" - uranus - which of course was also the name of the original sky god who, with gaae (the earth mother) fathered the original gods.

The Hebrew words for God move around "el" (or "al", depending on pronunciation), which is "mighty one" and is drawn (and called) as a bull's head (the letter "Aleph").

Christians place too much weight on that word "God", because it's not a defined term in either testament, but comes from words in the underlying language that refer to something.

In Hebrew, the word simply means "power", in Greek root, it derives from "bright sky", and means "divine".

Now, a non-mechanical reader with a theological agenda will positively scream that I am "twisting the Scripture", but actually, I am saying what the word really IS, what the words really ARE - if "the heaven" inspired them (the mandate of the sky, so to speak) - perhaps the heaven was revealing its nature in that choice of word. But that's not what theological Jews or Christians want - no, they're quite sure of what "God" is, even though nobody told them but their tradition.

I'm not revising anything. I'm writing the words in their actual meaning. That those words really make firm theological beliefs fuzzy is a weakness of the theological beliefs - the words just are what they are.

Hmmm...inasmuch as I grasp your point, perhaps we could use a simple passage as an example.

As you know, translators have grappled with the proper translation of the names rendered as "Lord" and "God" for centuries. The primary names in Hebrew are: Jehovah (the tetragramatron YHVH, used 6,521 times, usually translated as LORD), Adonai (used 335 times, ), and Elohim (used 2,601 times, usually rendered as gods or god or God) and their singular/plural word forms.

This is good short summary:

Wiki: Names of God in Judaism

The name of God most often used in the Hebrew Bible is the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). Owing to the Jewish tradition viewing the divine name as too sacred to be uttered it was replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai ("My Lord"), which was translated as Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Hebrew scriptures. It is frequently anglicized as Yahweh or Jehovah and written in most English editions of the Bible as "the LORD". Rabbinic Judaism describes seven names which are so holy that, once written, should not be erased: YHWH and six others which can be categorized as titles are El ("God"), Eloah ("God"), Elohim ("Gods"), Shaddai (“Almighty"), Ehyeh ("I Will Be"), and Tzevaot ("[of] Hosts").

I suggest you review that Wiki page for these 7 unerasable names of God as well as the other names used for God in Hebrew scripture, the leading one of this secondary rank of names for God being Adon/Adonai (as I understand it).

But enough all the different names for God in the OT and about translation principles like formal equivalence (the name for the translation method you would like to use with word-for-word translation). Let's proceed to a well-known concrete example, just one single verse we can translate.

Let's use Deuteronomy 10:17. It's very familiar and contains a number of these names used in ancient Israel which we translate as LORD, or Lord, or God, or The Almighty, etc. Since these names are all found in a single verse, we don't have to worry that the meanings or usage drifted over the centuries. If they're all in one verse, they had to make sense to any literate Jews back when they were written, published on scrolls, and recited in synagogue.

Here is a list of various translations of the verse that I got from e-Sword, including a few Catholic versions like Vulgate and Jubilee bible along with the Bishop's, Geneva, KJV-1611, KJV (1769), KJV with Strong's numbers, and a few modern literal translations like LITV and MKJV.

Notice that if you hover your mouse over the Strong's numbers, a tooltip will appear to tell you which Hebrew word is being used when the word "God" or "LORD" or "Lord" (YHVH, Elohim, EL). You can verify the Strong's numbers at any bible website; I included them here for convenience.

Deuteronomy 10:17
Bishops	For the Lorde your God, is God of Gods, and Lorde of Lordes, a great God, a mightie and a terrible, whiche regardeth no mans person, nor taketh rewarde.
Geneva	For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lordes, a great God, mightie and terrible, which accepteth no persons nor taketh reward:
KJV-1611	For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
KJV	For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
KJV+	ForH3588 the LORDH3068 your GodH430 is GodH430 of gods,H430 and LordH113 of lords,H113 a greatH1419 God,H410 a mighty,H1368 and a terrible,H3372 whichH834 regardethH5375 notH3808 persons,H6440 norH3808 takethH3947 reward:H7810
LITV	For Jehovah your God, He is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords; the great, the mighty, the fearful God who does not lift up faces, nor take a bribe.
MKJV	For Jehovah your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, the mighty, and a terrible God, who does not respect persons nor take a bribe.
JUB	For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, a great God, mighty, and terrible, who makes no exception of persons, nor takes a bribe;
Latin	quia Dominus Deus vester ipse est Deus deorum et Dominus dominantium Deus magnus et potens et terribilis qui personam non accipit nec munera
CEV	The LORD your God is more powerful than all other gods and lords, and his tremendous power is to be feared. His decisions are always fair, and you cannot bribe him to change his mind.
ESV	For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
OJB	17 For Hashem Eloheichem is Elohei HaElohim, and Adonei HaAdonim, HaEl HaGadol, HaGibbor v’HaNorah, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh shochad (bribe):

So how would you translate these various names of God from Hebrew, using word pictures like bright sky god in this one well-known verse, word for word, with or without capitals, with or without modern punctuation? How would you improve these various English translations? BTW, I included the Jubilee bible just for fun. And I added the Orthodox Jewish Bible translation at the very end, almost certainly more accurate than any of the others and pretty revealing of the underlying Hebrew language structure but...who would really want to read that as daily scripture readings? Not many people, I think.

If you really like translations that strive for accuracy and consistency in names and terms across the entire bible, LITV and Jubilee have that as their goal. They try to make the words self-defining by context. The results are mixed IMO. I included the CEV just for humor because it's so stupid, as are all the paraphrase bibles.

Given that He Exists (or He Lives), he is powers of powers, leader of leaders, the power, the great, the courageous and the feared one, he will not lift up face and he will not take bribe.

That's how I would view that, from the Hebrew.

YHWH = He Exists or He Lives or He Is - to exist, to be, and to live are one single verb in Hebrew - take your pick.

Elohiym = Powers El = Power

Adonai = "lord", which is just the archaic form of "leader".

The name of God missing in this is El Elyon - the Power of Powers - the Most High of Powers, the Highest Power.

El Elyon - the Most High - is Jesus' God and Father.

So, you see, the critters in the religious zoo, to me, are El Elyon and YHSWH - The Highest God, who is the father and god of Yahshua - Jesus - his only begotten son.

The first "word" of Genesis, before creation (so before time) is a pictographic sentence showing the begetting of the son from the father:

b'reshiyt = B R A Sh Y T

House Head El divide-into point-at Cross.

God is El Elyon - he is our most high God, and he was (and is) Jesus' God also. Jesus prayed to God - his Father - and that God was (and is) El Elyon.

The only son God ever fathered biologically through a woman's uterus was Jesus (and his very name puts the "bite in two" letter "Shin" into the middle of YHWH). God fathered EVERY human, by breathing out our spirit (spirit is breath, divine spirit is the breath of God - the "Holy Spirit" is that which is breathed out by the divine - which is El Elyon, and also the Son), but God only IMPREGNATED one woman to create one son BIOLOGICALLY. That is why Jesus and we have the same father, but Jesus' relationship to that father is "only-begotten" - begotten means "fathered" - El Elyon breathed his spirit into all of us, giving us life. But El Elyon biologically fathered Jesus through a woman's egg - the only time he ever did that - which is why Jesus is our brother of the same Father, but he's the only BEGOTTEN son.

Is Jesus divine? Of course. Are WE divine? In a sense - we live because of the breath of God that animates us, the individual spirit that God breathed out that makes us what we are. Of course, WE breathe out spirit also, and our spirits can indeed affect others, inspiring them, blighting them, etc. We can't CREATE material and biological things by our spirit, but we certainly subcreate by our words and expressions.

Indeed, we make in the image by which we are made.

But we can indeed be "fathered", metaphorically speaking, by evil spirits too. "Satan" - the adversarial principle, that which opposed to God, it can be breathed into us and animate us (not originally giving us life, only God originally animates us), but the "spirit of Satan" can come to be what we live and breathe pretty quickly (not in the womb, and not when we are very little - that is why Jesus said to suffer the little ones to come to him and don't block them, for unless one became as a little child (again), without the spirit of satan in him, one could not enter the kingdom of God.

This is why Jesus said to Nicodemas the spirit (wind) blows where it may, and one doesn't know whence it comes or whither it goes, but that unless you are fathered (not born - begotten) again (by the Father, with a new spirit - a new breath) with water and the word, you can't come to God.

That's why "your father is Satan" - because the spirit of the adversary fills the blood of your veins and your minds, once you are polluted with it, and only the spirit/breath...oxygen!...of God can overbear that.

The breath/spirit is the crossover of everything - it is both intangible and physical, it animates life. The physical component of spirit - air - is WHY the blood is the life - because the blood literally carries the wind (spirit/oxygen) to the body to each cell to let it live.

God is not SIMPLY an idea, but also manifests physically. This is why the eucharist is a mystery - this IS my body, this IS my blood - breath IS God's spirit, not simply metaphorically, but not JUST physically.

The philosophical desire to render God utterly non-physical and outside of the physical is the downfall of many millions who cannot accept that God is both ethereal AND physical. It's what, for example, makes Jesus' own divinity so hard to accept (for some), and why the endless wrangling over the "nature" of the eucharist. Spirit/breath is the transition, the crossover, and when one understands that the physical winds of earth are literally the willed breaths of God, that that is exactly how the Hebrews understood it, one understands how much CLOSER God was to them in their minds, and how much closer he actually IS.

Psalm 104 When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath [spirit], they die and return to their dust. When you send forth your spirit [breath] they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.

It's not really hard to understand. For some reason it's hard for some to accept.

When you appoint someone you can't completely know their heart.

Yes you can.

Or at least Democrats can. After all, they've appointed four in the past 40 years, and a lot more to the appellate benches and district courts, and they NEVER break ranks on abortion - NOT EVER.

Democrats apply a litmus test, and they drive the point home in direct questioning, demanding ideological purity and absolute orthodoxy on the matter in their questioning BEFORE they will offer up the nomination.

Republicans don't do that, pretending it's "inappropriate". it's NOT inappropriate AT ALL. Republicans DO THAT because the rich who control the GOP - including folks like the Romneys and the Bushes, but also Wall Street backers, etc., are pro-choice, but the party runs as pro-life. On things that matter to the rich - regulatory matters, contract rights - the Republican judges NEVER break ranks, because there IS a litmus test applied to Republican judges. Abortion is simply not one of the tests, because the Republican Party owners and top leaders and donors are PRO-CHOICE.

They need the pro-life votes, but they have NO INTENTION OF EVER allowing a pro-life majority to get on that court, which is why Reagan appointed O'Connor and Kennedy - both pro-choice, and why Bush 41 appointed Souter (and tried to appoint Ginsburg): both pro-choice, and why W appointed the Chief Justice (who is treacherous) and tried to appoint Harriet Miers.

Democrat Presidents appoint justices and judges they know damned well are pro-Roe absolutists, and Democrats re NEVER disappointed by their judges. You never see the Democrats SURPRISED by a Kelo, or by a ruling on anything important to Democrats, because Democrat Presidents and their judicial appointment officials exhaustively examine and test the ideological purity of their judges.

Republicans do too, and overturning Roe is NOT part of the Republican litmus test. It CoULD be. I think with Trump it actually IS, which is yet one more reason why the owners of the GOP - the country club set - the Rockefellers and Bushes and Romneys, etc., really detest Trump.

This is why I get on Republicans so hard: the party is not HONEST in what it campaigns on. If it were, they could have VERY EASILY tested potential judicial nominees as harshly on matters of abortion as they do on matters of private contract and regulatory powers, and Republican judges could be just as reliable on matters of Roe as Democrat judges are. But Republicans don't, because the leaders of the Republican party are pro-choice, and don't WANT an ACTUAL pro-life majority on the Supreme Court. They want to get the votes from the Christians by always dangling the carrot, but they have no intention of EVER putting the crucial 5th vote up there, and they want guys up there like John Roberts who, in a pinch, will change sides to preserve the policy they want to keep.

Obamacare is an example of a policy that the Republican Party wanted to campaign against to get votes, but did not really want to kill. All of that mandatory purchasing channeled billions of private money into financial institutions under their control. And so, when it came before the Supreme Court, John Roberts changed sides. And when it came before the Congress, dying Senator McCain took the bullet and prevented it from being struck down.

The Republican pattern is so utterly consistent that, as the years go on, people should be able to see it, especially when contrasted to the Democrats, who ALWAYS stick to their guns and who NEVER betray their principles on core matters.

There is stuff you said Trump would never do. Like welfare stuff. Well Trump agrees with my position more that your s on leeches stealing from the system. Welfare. So if Trump is the model he is more like me that you. So by your logic the country is moving more in my direction that yours.

That's true.

But the most important thing, to me, about Trump has always been peace and friendship with Russia, tariffs on China, and controlling the Mexican Border.

China has to be stopped from walking into the position of world hegemon through economic denomination, because the whole world is greedy and afraid to face them alone. The US had to lead that charge, it had to be with tariffs, and Trump had done that.

Trump made Mexico put the detention camps there and pay for them, lest they lost NAFTA. And the Wall is going up.

Most importantly, Trump is working with Russia, as we see in Syria, and will see in the course of time with Iran. Good relations with Russia and economic measures that stop the rise of China mean that we don't need the huge military we have, over time we can significantly reduce it, which means a balanced budget then a budget surplus, which means economic stability and improvement in the USA in the long run.

So, these foreign affairs issues are ultimate the most important things for the long term future of the country. And Trump has all of these issues right.

Domestically, he has applied a litmus test on abortion (or appears to have).

I'm pleased as punch with Trump for all of those reasons.

I didn't vote for Reagan ever. I wasn't old enough. If you want to bash me on this issue do it for voting for Perot.

I voted for Reagan, always denouncing his voodoo economics and free trade as debt-producing, industry-destroying stupidity. I now know it was not stupidly. Reagan, like all Republicans, actively dismantled the American broad middle class economy in order to concentrate wealth in the hands of the top Republican business class. At the time, I thought he was a boob. Now I realize that he was an asshole on those matters, as are all Republicans except Trump. That's why Trump has launched a trade war with China, and punishes companies who try to move manufacturing outside of America.

Despite Reaganomics, I voted for Reagan because foreign policy is more important than the domestic economy. Reagan was fighting the Cold War, and the Democrats were spineless wimps, cringing in the face of Vietnam a few years earlier, cringing in the face of Cuban aggression, Russians in Afghanistan, Iranian students.

Reagan kicked their asses and built a strong military to hem in and ultimately destroy the Soviet Union, and when he had them on the ropes, he made peace with them too. He was a great grand strategist, and that earned my vote.

Bush lost my vote because he lied about taxes - even though I thought the tax hikes were actually necessary to prevent the debt from burgeoning. It isn't enough that you do what is necessary. If you lie to my face to get power, you're shit on my boots and I'm going to scrape you off. Bush lied to our faces, and thought that because he was President, he had the discretion to do whatever he wanted. Well, we could not stop him, but we DID throw him out of office on his ass - a one termer - the hallmark of a failed Presdidency.

I PROUDLY voted for Perot, because Bush was a skunk who raised taxes, but also because Perot was DEAD RIGHT about "free" trade and immigration. We finally got Perot with Trump.

With 20-20 hindsight, I recognize that voting for Perot meant Clinton won, and I am fine with that. Clinton was a crappy human, but he wasn't a terrible President - we did balance the budget.

I voted for Dole.

I voted for McCain against W in the primaries, but held my nose and voted for W in the first election, happily in the second because I support the War on Terror and am please to see how we've largely won it. Trump has even managed to enlist Russian support in keeping Syria peaceful and ending its terrorist tendences.

Obama wasn't a disaster in my eyes, those I voted against him both times.

The thing I appreciate about Democrats is that their taxation and economics are much better for the common man than Republican plutocracy. But their foreign policy and immigration policy are shite, so I vote for Republicans.

But when you get a Republican like Romney, who incorporates everything that is terrible about Republican economics, with everything that is terrible about Democrat foreign policy AND who is obviously pro-choice but says he's not - another H.W. Bush. He can stuff it.

Give us four more years of Trump, and let Trump start working on health care: we'll be in good shape.

Ted Cruz. What is loathsome about Ted Cruz? Besides the fact you want to murder him. I mean real stuff not your over active imagination.

He doesn't bother me the way he used to. I don't remember what riled me up about him then. Perhaps it was the way he was going after Trump?

Clarence Thomas is the best judge on the Supreme court. Pro life appointed by Bush.

I agree with you.

After Vic has disposed of all those mean old white Christian right wingers, he'll be left alone with all his leftist, communist, atheist pals...and they will do what they always do...they will immediately kill him.

Actually, I'll be left with the Independent Centrists, like me. There are more of us than there are Republicans OR Democrats.

Catholics will be more heavily represented - though all of Christianity is in trouble.

I'm not "disposing" of anybody. The Christian Churches aren't dying because of ME. They're dying because the new generation doesn't believe in God, and the older generations don't trust them. Of note, the Catholic Church has broken itself with the mass rape of little boys and cover up, and the refusal to get rid of a rule that doesn't work anymore.

I wanted Border control, and if Trump holds out, we'll finally get it. But the damage done before it, and the birth rates, mean that Hispanic Catholics will grow in numbers. So no, the atheists will not be storming the ramparts. In truth, people are not all that atheist. They are discouraged and disgusted with their traditional organized Churches for very good reasons. Doesn't mean they're giving up on God.

I don't consider people who support Social Security, public schooling and Medicare to be leftists. I consider people who think they are to be right- wing nutjobs...usually who are THEMSELVES dependent on these programs they hate. They can't be silenced, so you just have to turn out to vote down their stubborn, stupid ideas as always. This is the same wing of American politics they tried to keep America out of World War II. Dumb.

I am aware that you support abortion too.

No, I consider abortion to be murder.

But I recognize that there are 1.5 million poor babies aborted every year. Outlaw abortion, as I would do, and you must simultaneously be prepared to MASSIVELY expand welfare rolls by about 1.5 million a year, year after year. Because if you don't have abortion, you're going to have all of those poor babies. And we cannot (and will not) let them starve.

Because I recognize that expanded social welfare is joined at the hip with the abortion issue, and that the two cannot be separated, I speak of them together. They are cars on the same cable.

And I notice that conservative Republicans are never mature enough or rational enough to see the obvious truth of that, and to bite the bullet. They want to outlaw abortion AND cut social welfare, which is wildly unrealistic nonsense that sensible people will never let happen, because it will obviously lead to mass starvation.

I already don't see Republicans as really being pro-life, for the reasons I've stated before, but even the pro-life right I don't see as REALISTICALLY being pro-life, because they live in a fantasy world in which outlawing abortion doesn't mean an explosion of the numbers of poor. Of course it does!

And the unwillingness to acknowledge that the poor have to be fed, housed, clothed, educated and medically treated is simply unrealism, and un- Christian, as far as I am concerned.

I'm a realist.

Given that He Exists (or He Lives), he is powers of powers, leader of leaders, the power, the great, the courageous and the feared one, he will not lift up face and he will not take bribe.

I'm not sure the Vicomte bible will be a big seller. Kind of lacks literary style, not punchy enough. And no poetic meter or vivid imagery.

I'm not trying to be overly critical. It's just a bit flat in reading it. Some capitalization would help. I would probably have used Almighty for EL but that is kinda nitpicking.

I'm doubt that's the worst translation around - for that look at the paraphrase bibles - but it isn't memorable or especially accurate, at least in my understanding.

A great translation teaches something and says it in a memorable way. I think that is a prime measure of the merits of a translation of scripture. I'm sure you see my point.

Returning to where this began, I'm not sure you could use this ensample (example in modern terms) of names of God to translate word-for-word the entire Old Testament. Other passages would get very very ragged, I think.

That's the problem with formal equivalence translations. Especially when dealing with a collection of OT books written in multiple languages (Hebrew, Koine Greek) spanning 500 years or more.

I'm not complaining, I could do no better. And, of course, we haven't even begun to deal with all the other names for God, gods of foreign nations, etc.

If a translation method cannot deal with all the names given for God in a book of various scriptures, that translation method doesn't have a lot of merit IMO.

I thought you might enjoy observing the development of English translations over time. Too bad I don't have a ready source for Tyndale's bible, the real granddaddy of English vernaculars. But the Bishop's is close enough. The Geneva uses most of the same renderings which were familiar to English readers from the Bishop's and the Tyndale. And the KJV borrowed many of the same readings, often infusing them with more literary style as well as some poetic meter which aided memorization greatly. There's a reason that no one memorizes and quotes bible verses from the modern bibles. They have no meter unless they're just stealing readings from the older Tyndale-based bibles. So they can fuss all they want over basing modern translations on the supposedly superior Nestle-Aland Greek text (based on Vaticanus/Sinaiticus) instead of the Textus Receptus. But if they just steal the old familiar readings from the KJV, then what good are their supposed superior underlying Greek manuscripts? It's just a scam to sell new copyrighted bibles like NIV. Don't get me started on just how scammy these modern bible companies are and how greedy. It's a truly dismal story.

I did like seeing the Orthodox Jewish Bible though. I might have to examine it more fully in other passages. It might be considerably more accurate and give a better sense of the original text to English readers. In translation, some things just can't be properly translated and you have to see a near-representation to read it. And the OJB is a bit punchy in style and might even be suitable to memorize. It has a certain punchiness to it. Believe it or not but punchiness, style and meter are vital attributes in scripture translations.     : )

BTW, if you were serious about machine translation, the public-domain software for the Babylon dictionary/translation project has been crafted into a proprietary software called Babylon. About $130, Mac or PC. That is the kind of software that could do the sort of translation you have been talking about.

Try it out online: https://translation.babylon-software.com/

Using BibleGateway's Leningrad Codex, I fed Deuteronomy 10:17 to the online version of Babylon and got this:

That the LORD your God is the God of God, and the lords of God increase increase and terrible that no-bear and not take bribes.

Well, it's about what you expect from such translation software. I think you could impose more rules on the $130 version and really make it work much better but I haven't actually used Babylon in some years so I may be overestimating it a little. But just for using the free generic online version, that rendering isn't that bad. I think the Hebrew they're using as their dictionary is modern Israeli Masoretic, not a dictionary of ancient Hebrew. So you could probably do a lot better with the retail Babylon.

I'm not seeing this, Liberator. But I'm not seeing the church "dying", as Vic would describe it.

All three of us can be right; It's our respective observation and sense. Then also a matter of our expectation and on what metric we assess the current State of The Church.

By "Church," I would say, those who believe simply in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Vic maybe making his assessment based on his local or international RCC.

It's reasonable to expect our experience to be different.

What I see is this:

You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. Rev. 3:17

The Church is in this condition today...(I wish I were wrong, but I don't think I am)

I can concur with this assessment as an overall State of the Church and Jesus' own observation. But then again, hadn't Jesus warned of a flabby, "lukewarm" faith and Church? We are seeing that -- especially of "mega" and "show-biz" churches.

Faith and Salvation is going to come down to a "Mano-a-Mano" personal relationship with the Lord and growing the way we need to. That may mean leaving a particular church behind.

ACTUAL miracles of healing, the REAL thing. They do not happen, but by the power of God.

People will see what they want to see and perceive ANY supernatural act as "an act of God." That's the problem.

Jesus asked the same question: "Can Satan cast out Satan?"

Good point. But then again as watchman has noted and inferred -- there are weak churches, with those of weak faith, who think they are amply "armed." They can and will easily be duped by anti-Christ or false messiah who will wield demonic power, capable of great deception.

Some Churches may be growing at the margins, while Christianity as a whole shrinks. BUT does that even matter?

YES. EVERY saved soul always matters, doesn't it? THAT person may save other souls. And so forth.

A few more people here or there believe in something. Is the poverty being attacked and reduced? Is the distress weakening?

Whom do you think has been preventing this evil world from caving in upon itself? The moral, the wise, the Godly. Moreover, this fallen mortal realm was never intended to be Heaven, Vic. You're giving way too much weight to "poverty" as the primary dilemma for man -- Salvation is. Scripture itself tells us the poor will ALWAYS be with us.

If anybody has actually been helping the poor, it's been Christian charity. That said, it is NOT up to government to confiscate wealth and re-distribute it. That my friend is called, THEFT.

"Distress" you say? NEVER in history has there been less "distress" among poor people. Who do you think in helping Africa fro starving to death?

It is accurate. That's the point. It precisely says what the words mean. And it does so consistently. It's flat and uninteresting, but there are no games played with "LORD" versus YHWH - two different words that mean different things.

Where the precision matters is only in certain places, such as where God explicitly tells Isaiah that he creates evil. This matches, of course, God's threats in other places, such as throughout his warnings given to Amos, and it matches the "Tree of knowledge of good and evil" - that word - Ra - but it contradicts a psalm that says God does not do evil.

Similarly that word "Kill", as in "You shall not kill". The efforts to turn that word into "murder", thereby allowing killing by authorities to do things people like - or killing in war. Translators decide that in most places "ratsaq" is "kill", but in others, it's murder.

Nope. One word. God creates evil, that is very clear. God made everything. And God commanded men not to kill, and only generally authorized men to shed men's blood in payment for the shedding of blood.

Then, in Israel (only) God imposed the death penalty for various offenses, including Sabbath breaking, but these are not laws for the whole world, just for Israel under the covenant of Sinai.

Those precisions are very precious when it comes to combatting theologies that have been devised to change the words to allow men to do what men want to do. Nowhere is it more important than in the notion that men can decide on laws, and then appoint some men to kill other men if they will not obey their laws. All of that killing done to enforce authority violates God's commandment against killing. There is no "law enforcement exception".

Paradoxically, then, charity is actually MANDATORY, but compliance with human law is what is voluntary. Men sin if they DON'T give to the poor - and they sin in a way that offends God to the point of sending those who don't into outer darkness - but men sin if they kill in enforcement of law, or in war to seize territory - there is no "government exception" to the law against killing - organized war is mass murder on an organized scale, and those who obey orders and kill are candidates for the lake of fire.

These two facts from the text, when translated mechanically and without changing the words around, are directly opposite what Christians teach themselves, and explain most of the evil that befalls the Christian world. We do not understand that we are COMMANDED to give or lend (at zero interest) our excess money to relieve poverty, but that we are FORBIDDEN from enforcing our civil laws with deadly force. That "charity" is compelled but that obedience to human law is voluntary is what God actually says - or the implication of it - and it is the diametric opposite of what humans want.

That is why, in Israel, they appointed a King - so they could wage war and the stronger could dominate the weak - and so they would not be dependent on God for defense and harvests.

Given just how offensive God's way really is to the Christian mind, of course any exacting translation will evoke rejection.

The Quakers - with their nonviolence and their insistence on unanimity before imposing any rule - are actually the only religion on earth that obeys God.

And that's why they're also the one that hasn't killed anybody - despite having existed in the 1600s, and the one that led to the abolition of slavery, equal rights for women, conscientious objection, the single price theory. BECAUSE they are God's people, in the sense that they're the only ones who ACTUALLY OBEY HIM on the most fundamental rule: NOBODY (including the King and the Army) is permitted by God to kill ANYBODY, except in direct self-defense against immediate violence.

I suppose the Jains of India are in the same place.

Anyway, the reason I don't bother to try to do anything comprehensive is that it would be oceans of work, to be ignored in general, and the fact the people ignore direct words of God carefully placed before them enrages me and makes me go nonlinear. And what good is that to me? Oceans of time wasted to be ignored or endlessly contradicted by ignoramuses who "like the old wine better"?

I have better things to do with my time. Judaeo-Christian religion is dying IN GENERAL. (The REASON it is dying is because it dwells endlessly on what individuals feel and want and social structures and rituals, and does not address the cardinal problems of humanity: poverty and violence - and that is because Christians have chosen to believe in a God who lets them do the POLAR OPPOSITE with regards to violence and charity from what the REAL God said to do. OF COURSE, therefore, Christianity will wilt and die: it's not real. It's not true.

Jesus is the Son of God, and he said to do certain things. God has a rule of violence that Christians ignore. God set up the world as an economic entity without scarcity, but the fall imposed scarcity, and that imposes HEAVY burdens on humanity. God set up his laws for Israel explicitly to ELIMINATE human suffering from want - but it comes at the heavy price (to men's egos) of there being NO king, NO legislature, and NO human authority at all in the formation of laws - just the execution of judicial judgment on those who break God's laws...without, even, discretion in the judges: God gave them the prescription judgments they must deliver. And God even gave the Urim and Thummim to consult him in those cases where the facts could not be determined.

Thus, in Israel there would be no scarcity, because all land and all produce and all people were accounted for under the laws of God, including who must be given to by whom in the event of misfortune. And there would be no abuse of law because men were completely stripped of their ability to make any law whatever. They could only execute the laws God set, without changing them. No place was left to human opinion, and there was, effectively, no source of human voluntary power in the system. Thus did God create a system that would lake poverty or abuse, by eliminating the human ego from the governance of men.

For once, Christians who want to use God's ISRAELITE law to go after, say, the gays, will be happy to proclaim "WE'RE NOT ISRAELITES!" and thus we CAN determine our laws, and enforce them as we place. Yes, except that the law against shedding blood was given to NOAH and his sons after the Flood, so that denial of the right to kill/inflict violence (except in defense or punishment of a violent attacker) is NOT the law of YHWH for Israel, but of Elohiym for the entire world. Sorry, Christians, you were ALWAYS WRONG when you executed anybody for heresy, homosexuality, apostasy, witchcraft or anything BUT killing.

I do the mechanical translation for the insights it gives me, and to have things to converse with God about, so that he can show me insights into how he has done things. When the hieroglyphs in which Genesis was originally carved are read, the revelation is mind blowing. Something simple like the word "El" - the first appearance of "God" - is an ox head picture, and the sound of it "EL" is the same picture (Eh, or Ah), and L - lamed - a shepherd's crook picture. So, the word "powers" or "mighty one" - the first "name" of God, is, phonetically spelled: Lord Shepherd.

The Lord is MY shepherd indeed!

People like what they like. I'm not going to change them. They're contentious. I've given up on trying to teach anybody anything from the Bible. If God wants to do that, he can. I delve into the words so I can talk to him about what he meant, what he wants of me.

Sharing these things with the world just gets me bruised, angry and sullen. So what's the point?

Whom do you think has been preventing this evil world from caving in upon itself?

God.

it is NOT up to government to confiscate wealth and re-distribute it. That my friend is called, THEFT.

God commanded that the people of the state he set up give 10% of their production, plus their first fruits harvest, plus their head toll (in total around 24% of their annual income) to the state he set up.

He commanded the state he set up to receive those imposts, and to use some of them to support the judges and administrators, and most of it to support the classes of the poor within the land.

And he commanded the judges of the state he set up to prosecute and punish those who did not pay their taxes.

He commanded every individual to pay what was owed over to his state, and also to lend their excess to their poor neighbors, if asked, without interest, and to drop any portion of that debt that was not repaid after seven years.

There was nothing voluntary about any of it, and it was entirely involuntary.

Let's cut to the chase:

Does God allow men to kill other men?

Jesus said that killers were consigned to the Lake of Fire at final judgment.

Who has to worry about that? Do murderers? What about people who order murder but don't commit it themselves? What about those who aid and abet murder? Does Paul have anything to worry about?

What about soldiers who kill? What about cops? What about people who kill an innocent by accident?

What about people who kill in self defense?

What about people who torture animals?

Discuss.

Does God allow men to kill other men?

Yes. God delegates His authority to governments to put to death those guilty of crimes against the state.

Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. Acts 26:10

Acts 26:10 is an example of Paul/Saul acting under authority to execute criminals.

Jesus said that killers were consigned to the Lake of Fire at final judgment.

The only people consigned to the Lake of Fire are those who reject Jesus Christ.

Who has to worry about that? Do murderers? What about people who order murder but don't commit it themselves? What about those who aid and abet murder? Does Paul have anything to worry about?

Murderers are to be tried by courts of the government and meet with whatever punishment set by that government. Same applies to aiding and abetting. The murderer can accept Christ while in route to execution and will receive eternal life in heaven.

What about soldiers who kill? What about cops? What about people who kill an innocent by accident?

Military and cops fall under the rules of the government. If their killing is justified they are merely instruments of the state upholding the law. If they kill unjustly, as we often read about here on the forum, then courts must decide their fates/punishment, etc.

Those who kill accidentally must also face certain judgments and make restitution as set forth by the government.

What about people who kill in self defense?

Allowed. If the delegated authority (government) allows it.

What about people who torture animals?

Punished by laws set forth by the government.

When you appoint someone you can't completely know their heart. Yes you can.

Don't be dumb, no you can't.

These two facts from the text, when translated mechanically and without changing the words around, are directly opposite what Christians teach themselves, and explain most of the evil that befalls the Christian world. We do not understand that we are COMMANDED to give or lend (at zero interest) our excess money to relieve poverty, but that we are FORBIDDEN from enforcing our civil laws with deadly force. That "charity" is compelled but that obedience to human law is voluntary is what God actually says - or the implication of it - and it is the diametric opposite of what humans want.

I think you take this farther than scripture. The bible is full of kings and magistrates using force. Because that is what it takes to stop bandits, scofflaws, and criminal elements.

It's very hard to believe that ancient Israel just suggested that people should follow their laws. They used force to keep the criminal element down. Look at how they dealt with their enemies, over and over. They were not shy about using violence to enforce the civil order, conquer the land, etc.

And Israel under Rome in the time of Jesus certainly did not lack enforcement by Roman troops nor did the governor or the Sanhedrin shy away from using them at will.

You prefer this as policy. That doesn't mean there was no law enforcement.

Without armed enforcement, there is no rule of law. Because people don't obey the laws otherwise. The Jews in particular had to fear lawlessness as a serious threat to them historically. Major cities had thousands of crucified criminals along the roads leading to them, generally with the cooperation of the Sanhedrin and Jewish civilians.

Thus, in Israel there would be no scarcity, because all land and all produce and all people were accounted for under the laws of God, including who must be given to by whom in the event of misfortune. And there would be no abuse of law because men were completely stripped of their ability to make any law whatever. They could only execute the laws God set, without changing them. No place was left to human opinion, and there was, effectively, no source of human voluntary power in the system. Thus did God create a system that would lake poverty or abuse, by eliminating the human ego from the governance of men.

The poor in modern Western countries have more opportunity and more actual wealth than most ancient kings. The bible does not give much sympathy to those who refuse to help themselves or who refuse to work at all and prefer to spend their days drinking and doing drugs and leading immoral lives.

So before you tell us all to sell all that we have to give to the poor, can you tell us finally just what "poor" means? What income level does that mean? Do we have to give them all houses and cars? Because we do do that with most of them. We scour the world and bring millions more poor people here and give them a lot of stuff too.

If we can be faulted, it is that we neglect the native citizens in favor of constantly importing hordes of foreigners, something the Bible never commanded Israel to do.

I spoke there only of what God said, out of his mouth, as far as law goes. I consider well what he promised, and the effects of it. I consider the “Don’t shed man’s blood” commandment given to the Ark people, the legal interplay in the Torah, the fact of Urim and Thummin, such that Israel never HAD to get a judgment wrong, the urging of the prophets, Jesus’ words and conduct from “Render unto Caesar...”, through his “Enough!” at the last supper at the eagerness of tge Apostles to take up the swordshe said they would now need, to his admonition of ‘live by the sword, die by the sword’. I then look past him to the gross errors of Paul and Israel, wielding death to stop the progress of God, until Jesus himself blinded him and made him dependent on the people he was headed to Damascus to persecute. I look at the only two people who offended God enough in the new testament for God to kill outright in a pair of unambiguous open miracles (Ananias and Sapphira); then I look forward to the fatal sin of the Church, circa 381 AD, when it fired itself up with the wrongheaded zeal of “Error has no rights!” Augustine and started to use the state it dominated to execute people for heresy. And I conclude that, no, it’s not a question of what I “prefer”. It never was that.

Let's cut to the chase:

Does God allow men to kill other men?

If Scripture is our reference, YES.

Jesus said that killers were consigned to the Lake of Fire at final judgment.

(Is there not a difference between "killing" and "murder"? You're also familiar with Ecclesiastes, right?)

Who has to worry about that? Do murderers? What about people who order murder but don't commit it themselves? What about those who aid and abet murder? Does Paul have anything to worry about?

Judgement Day and the blood of Jesus will sort all that and all other sins out. (Why would Paul have anything to worry about??)

What about soldiers who kill? What about cops? What about people who kill an innocent by accident? What about people who kill in self defense?

What about people who torture animals?

Discuss.

(Again, please reference Ecclesiastes and Jesus' Gift of Grace & Salvation. He knows our heart.)

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV

3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

I consider well what he promised, and the effects of it. I consider the “Don’t shed man’s blood” commandment given to the Ark people, the legal interplay in the Torah, the fact of Urim and Thummin, such that Israel never HAD to get a judgment wrong, the urging of the prophets, Jesus’ words and conduct from “Render unto Caesar...”, through his “Enough!” at the last supper at the eagerness of tge Apostles to take up the swordshe said they would now need, to his admonition of ‘live by the sword, die by the sword’.

I think you have conflict with others over the extent to which you value the relevance of Old Testament teachings to Christians. Just because Jesus and his disciples were Torah-observant Jews does not mean they absolutely forbade many matters of Jewish law to Christians. Abandoning circumcision for Gentile converts and even for newborns in Christian families. What is more fundamental to ancient Jewish law and culture than the absolute requirement that all males in that cult be circumcised? Yet there are no such requirements in Christianity. One of the most fundamental breaks between Christianity, the new vine grafted to the ancient vine of Israel, was the matter of tribal membership based on circumcision. That was the first and only significant attribute of any Jew, observant or not. Nothing that any ancient person could do would make them part of the Old Covenant with the God of Israel unless they were circumsized. Period, end of story. And dismiss entirely the notion that the God of Israel was the god of any other nation. He was not. Jewish scripture describes the god of Israel and the laws of circumsized observant Jews of the ancient era, not the god of all mankind and a universal set of laws applicable to all the ages of mankind on the earth.

So I think you over-value the laws of Israel and would impose many Old Testament laws upon Christians that are not valid. I'm speaking in general terms, of reading the thrusts of your posts over the years. There is always a dividing line in theology over what elements, if any, are carried over from Judaism to Christianity. What elements of actual ancient Jewish law and religion still applied in the era of Jesus and how the New Covenant was established for Christians (non-observant Jews and Gentile converts). And many obscure Jewish customs were abolished for Gentile converts, among them circumcision, that most basic element of Jewish identity and subjection to the strictures of Jewish religion and custom.

Now of course, you must recognize that I am implying that you are a Judaizer, that you seek to impose irrelevant Jewish laws on modern Christians for psychological or theological or philosophical or cultic reasons. But I don't think that is true. I think there is just a difference in where we place the dividing line between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

One of the key distinctions in this kind of disagreement is fully illustrated in Paul's victory over Peter before the council of Jerusalem, the ruling body of early Christianity, the pre-Vatican, over the issue of whether Gentiles or even Jewish Christians were required to be circumcised to become Christians.

Bible.org: The Jerusalem Council: The Gospel Defined and Defended (Acts 15:1-35)

Introduction While there is a time to fight, there are many times when a fight is simply not worth it. I can remember Vance Havner once saying something like this: “Shucks, a hound dog can lick a skunk any day, but it just isn’t worth it.” A friend of mine used to say, “There are some things I would go to the wall for, but this isn’t one of them.” We should strive to avoid conflict, but there are those few times when we must engage in conflict in order to stand for what is essential and true. Acts 15 contains Luke’s account of two such instances, where conflict was necessary and where the gospel was advanced as a result of both disagreements. The first 35 verses describe the conflict which Paul and Barnabas had with certain men who had come to Antioch from Judea. The issue at hand was whether Gentile converts had to become Jewish proselytes in order to be saved. The outgrowth of this conflict was the first church council, which included some heated words but resulted in a very wise decision on the part of the apostles and elders of the church in Jerusalem. The remaining verses in Acts 15 describe the disagreement which arose between Paul and Barnabas. This was a matter which was settled privately and into which the church leaders were not drawn. We will concentrate in this lesson on the first conflict between Paul and Barnabas and some overly Jewish Christians, and the Jerusalem Council which met to settle the dispute. We will take note of the way in which the problem was handled and of the basis for the decision, as well as the decision of the Council and its impact. We will then seek to discern those principles which are inherent in our text and ponder their implications for the church today. The Issue, Its Advocates and Its Assumptions The issue is that of the gospel itself. What did the gospel require of those who were Gentiles and who were converted to faith in Christ? The answer of Paul and Barnabas can be summed up in these words: The gospel requires nothing more than a personal faith in the substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, in the sinner’s place, resulting in the forgiveness of sins, the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, and the certainty of eternal life. There were certain unnamed men who had come down to Antioch from Judea who held to a very different “gospel,” a “gospel” which, in reality, was a false one.323Their “gospel” might be summed up in this fashion: Christianity is Jewish. To be saved, one must believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, but in order to be a part of this covenant community, Israel, one must become a proselyte, which is entered into by circumcision, which obligates the individual to keep the Law of Moses. Put differently, to these “Judaisers” salvation meant identifying not only with Christ but with the nation Israel. It meant placing oneself under the Mosaic Covenant and keeping the Laws of Moses, as defined by Judaism. We know for certain that these men who opposed Paul and Barnabas were from Judea. We can be sure they were Jews and that they had been and continued to be Pharisees (15:5). We are also told that these men were believers (15:5). We can infer, with some confidence, that these men either claimed or implied that their position represented the viewpoint of the apostles and the church in Jerusalem.324 It is probably safe to say that they taught with great confidence and an air of authority. When Paul and Barnabas opposed them, the sparks began to fly. Neither party was willing to budge. As wrong as these “Judaisers” were, they believed their position was biblical. A brief look at some Old Testament passages will show us the basis for their error, as well as an explanation of the error. Tracking the concept of circumcision through the Old Testament provides us with the reasons these Pharisees believed as they did and the reason they were wrong. Consider these two passages, the first found in Genesis 17 and the second in Exodus 12: 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” 9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” … 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him. 23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen (Genesis 17:5-14, 22-25, NIV). 43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover: “No foreigner is to eat of it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it. 46 “It must be eaten inside one house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it. 48 “An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it. 49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you” (Exodus 12:43-49, NIV). Circumcision was no mere ritual—it was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. By being circumcised men bore witness to their faith in the God of Abraham and in His covenant with him and his descendants. Failure to circumcise his son nearly cost Moses his life (cf. Exodus 4:24-26). Failure or refusal to be circumcised placed one outside the covenant community. In order for one to participate in the Passover meal, one had to be circumcised. Aliens (Gentiles, for all practical purposes) could participate, but only after being circumcised. How easy it would be for a Jew to reason that these circumcision passages applied equally to those who wished salvation in Christ. Jesus was a Jew, the Jewish Messiah. If men wished to benefit in the blessings which God promised in and through the Messiah, they must identify themselves with Israel, with their covenants, and with the Mosaic commands. The fallacy of this Pharisaical position was that one did not have to identify with Israel to be saved, but only with Christ. Indeed, the baptism of John and later that of our Lord and His apostles was a public renouncing of Judaism as a system of works and an identification with Christ, on the basis of faith alone. Men turned their backs on legalistic Judaism and turned to Christ, who alone kept the law and bore its (death) penalty for sinners. The law could not save anyone; it could only condemn all men as sinners. Christ alone can save, and thus men had to choose between self-righteousness, based upon perfect obedience of the law, or Christ’s righteousness, a gift of God’s grace, through faith in the person and work of His Son, Jesus. The Judaisers viewed circumcision from these early texts in the Old Testament, but not from the other texts which showed the “true circumcision” to be an act of God, performed on men’s hearts and not on their physical flesh.325 Notice how this “spiritual” circumcision becomes more and more clear as the Old Testament progresses: 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live (Deuteronomy 30:6, NIV). 1 “If you will return, O Israel, return to me,” declares the Lord. “If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and no longer go astray, 2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’ then the nations will be blessed by him and in him they will glory.” 3 This is what the Lord says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: “Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done—burn with no one to quench it (Jeremiah 4:1-4, NIV). 23 This is what the Lord says: “Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the Lord. 25 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh—26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the desert in distant places. For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart” (Jeremiah 9:23-26, NIV). Though the term “circumcision” is not used, God’s promise of a new covenant and a new heart is surely referring to the “spiritual circumcision” which God will perform on men’s hearts, by faith, under a new covenant: “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (Jeremiah 31:31-33, NASB). So the differences between us probably amount more to differences on how we lay down the dividing lines between the Old Covenant for Israel and the New Covenant which led to non-observant Jews forming churches of their own and abandoning entirely the system of priestly sacrifices and the other strictures of the Jewish state, keeping in mind this was very much the era in which the Sandhedrin, a religious court, ruled in conjunction with a Roman governor (instead of a Jewish king). But, you say, what of the fundamentals, the Ten Commandments? Thou shall not kill, thou shall not take the name of the Lord in vain, etc.? Do we then wish to enforce the Ten Commandments with the full force of the modern state? Should we punish those who fail to make the God of Israel their primary god and never take his name in vain? Should we forbid the use of all imagery as idolatry, the creation of graven images? How do we enforce the prohibition on coveting the property of your neighbor or his wife? The truth is that we are modern people and you have to have good reasons to insist absolutely on certain particulars of Old Testament laws as being applicable to modern Christians. If you don't enforce them all, why are you enforcing any of them? I think you have a lawyerly craving for underlying and consistent principles within an organized system of law. Otherwise, despite any contradictions or failures of the system, there is no underlying systemic principles to dispense justice. Without fundamental principles, there is no concept of real justice. I do find your insistence that it is forbidden to kill those who are breaking the laws. What do you think is actually required if dealing with a Las Vegas massacre situation? The police are supposed to knock at the door and request politely that the gunman stop shooting? Or they just wait until he runs out of bullets and needs more snacks? It is only the law if the modern state is willing to kill you or imprison you and pay your institutional upkeep if you break those laws. Some people don't stop shooting or harming others until the police just kill them. It surprises me that you don't understand this. I think you just don't like it. And it is an easy way to condemn the entire system on moral grounds. Not that the American justice system and its policing don't deserve to be condemned; they absolutely do. But not on the grounds that you argue repeatedly, like some mythical refusal to kill because the ancient laws of Israel forbids it. Anyway, that seems to me to be the fundamental difference in our positions. A lot of times, people disagree on the particulars but don't look at the fundamental positions that others hold, different views of the most important features of a policing and justice system. Trying to apply the laws of small nation of homogenous religious and cultural tribe, a society like ancient Israel, to modern America and to any modern Christian nation is an exercise in futility, doomed to fail before you even start. And even if we granted you the power to impose such a system, it is readily apparent it would fail when faced with hardened criminal gangs and those who refuse to obey authority when push comes to shove in the matter of police encountering a lawbreaker. I flagged a few others who might be interested. Sometimes we argue endlessly the particulars when the real issue is the unspoken fundamentals. At least it seems that way to me. There is often a fundamental disagreement in opinion that works out to a wider range of conflicts in opinion.

(Is there not a difference between "killing" and "murder"? You're also familiar with Ecclesiastes, right?)

There is an issue of literalism here. When the armies of Israel were commanded to fight and conquer other nations like Canaan, there was no such prohibition against killing. Killing the enemies of the nation of Israel or those who resisted armed conquest of their lands by the nation of Israel was allowed and even praised and rewarded by God.

So is the prohibition, "Thou shalt not kill" so absolute and literal that it should be read as "Thou shalt not kill unless you are an ancient Jew and the God of Israel has commanded your leader/king to conquer and kill the inhabitants of land that God promised to the Jews". Because God did order a lot of killing in the Old Testament, much of it for conquest, much of it for ritual deviation or profaning the sacred or for forbidden sexual relations, just to name a few of the things that God commanded ancient Israel to kill for. Jews were ordered to stone to death a lot of different people committing various offenses under Old Testament (therefore Old Covenant) laws.

Circumcision was given to Abraham and his heirs, and the to the Hebrews of Sinai and theirs. So it never applied to you and me. (Note: the uncircumcised heir lost his right to inherit land in Israel, which was the only promise given to Abraham, and givennat Sinai. “Eternal life” is not part of the package offered either.

The prohibition on shedding blood was given to Noah and his heirs, which is everybody on earth. Jesus said that killers earn the lake of fire at final judgment.

As far as the invasion of Canaan goes, God gave that order to the Hebrews, only, conquering Canaan, only. It was not a permanent grant of authority for Jews to make war on whomever. They had a permanent right to defend the land God gave them, and were commanded to kill the Canaanites who did not flee (this was explicitly part of the divine judgment against the Canaanites. The exception to the “don’t kill” rule was limited in time and place, not an authorizatuion for Gentiles to wage wars of conquest.

To insist on the Ten Commanments, even, is JudaiIzing. Jesus listed SOME of the ten in his lists of mortal sins, added sins that aren’t there. And of course the law against killing doesn’t come from the Ten Commandments, but from the Ark. it is merely repeated at Sinai. Moreover, the Law of Moses, if followed perfectly by a Hebrew in Israel, doesn’t promise eternal life - that’s not the deal. It only promises a secure farm in Israel in this life. On the other hand, it’s Jesus, not Moses, whose law says that those who do not provide for the poor will be left in outer darkness for Christ does not know them. Don’t kill was a law before Sinai, and is a law of Jesus. It’s not a Jewish Law as such, and not Judaizing to insist on it.

Don’t kill is an absolute, except for self defense (in which case it’s enforcing don’t kill on the would- be killers. All of those other cases under the Jewish law are specific exceptions for Israel, for God ruled Israel directly. Ancient Israel is gone, but Jesus says that killers today go into the lake of fire. So, trying to drag in Jewish Law that allowed killing is Judaizing.

but Jesus says that killers today go into the lake of fire

A little help, please. What verse are you referring to?

Look on the last couple of pages of the Bible. In Revelation, Jesus gives two similar (not identical) lists of mortal sins - sins for which people are cast into the lake of fire: liars, killers, the sexually immoral, etc. Killers appear on both lists. Sabbath breakers, the covetous and thieves appear on neither. Idolators do, and, curiously, curs and are he filthy appear on at least one list, but the uncircumcised and shrimp eaters appear on neither (unless one interprets “filthy” as being “unclean”.

liars, killers, the sexually immoral, etc. Killers appear on both lists.

Are murderers un-redeemable?

Vic isn't a bible believer. I also notice he is adding to scripture adding the word mortal. Vic is a bit of a fool.

Vic isn't a bible believer.

Sad news! He does seem to believe certain parts of the Bible...and mixes in something like Catholicism?

He says he only trusts the red writing.

He says he only trusts the red writing.

Well, that's a good start.

Here's a Bible that will appeal to Vic...an OT red letter edition

https://kjver.com/redletter.aspx

I'll keep looking until I find an entire Bible printed in red.

That Sword Bible with the direct words of God in Red certainly is a useful addition.

I had to do that work myself, with a highlighter, and it bled through the page a lot.

Also, in the NT, distinguishing who is speaking - the Father, Jesus, angels, YHWH from the OT, Jesus quoting the OT - it took a lot of different color fonts. Having had someone already do that is a good thing.

The nice thing about the KJV is that it is from ONE main manuscript, of Bysantine Orthodox text type, the original version has all of the books later excluded by some Protestants, and it has such a rich research apparatus supporting it (of concordances, word-counts, "Strongs", etc. that one can really delve down into many aspects of it better than in any other version.

The translation also has the virtue of "thee" and "you", so one can see the distinction between second person singular and plural, which no longer exists in contemporary English.

So, I'll be pleased to get myself a "Sword Bible" as it will make my task easier.

Of course, it remains to be seen whether they will properly put the words of Jesus in Revelation.

(And no, every word in the Bible did not "proceed forth from the mouth of God". The writers did a good job of pointing THOSE words out, and they're important because of who said them.

If you want to believe that EVERY word proceeded forth out of the mouth again, you can follow your tradition and believe that, but the original writers were inspired by God to make the distinction, so God apparently intended for there to be such a distinction.

Of course, what one DOES with the information is more important than sitting around thinking about it, in any case.

An entire Bible printed in red would be useless, therefore. The red would be distracting and hard on the eyes.

Murderers unredeemable?

Jesus promised that God forgives those who forgive, and that he will not forgive those who do not.

I also notice he is adding to scripture adding the word mortal.

Well, Jesus gives a list of sins that earn the lake of fire at final judgment. He gives two overlapping lists.

ALL sins are not on that list. Indeed, a great number of sins pointed out by God are not on the list. Half of the Ten Commandments are not on the list, while things not among the Ten Commandments are on that list.

So, how shall I describe the list of specific sins that earn one the lake of fire? I need a word. "Mortal" seems reasonable enough. These are the sins that result in the second death. Sounds pretty "mortal" to me.

By contrast, sins such as theft or dishonoring your father, or breaking the Sabbath, or coveting, are NOT on the list of "Lake of Fire" - second death - sins. "Mortal" is a nice short word that distinguishes between the lists of sin that earn one the fire, versus the ones that don't.

James says "Break one, break them all", but Jesus obviously disagrees.

Thank goodness, then, that James' ideas on the matter are not printed in red like Jesus's words are. In this way, given the conflict between two different parts of the Bible, we can decide whether we think that James is the final authority, or Jesus.

Likewise, we have Jesus sayin over and over again at the end of revelation that all of the souls will be called forth from Hades and Death, resurrected, and judged by their works. And of course we've got Paul disagreeing with that. Once again we've got red-letters conflicting with black-letters. "Bible" contains both, and the conflict. How does one resolve the conflict?

You resolve it by denying there is a conflict, even though there clearly is.

I resolve it by looking to the highest authority, which - to a Christian - is Jesus's Father, followed by Jesus himself.

All Jesus' father said that was pertinent to this was "listen to him" (Jesus). So what Jesus says, goes. Where James and Paul and John disagree with Jesus, Jesus trumps, obviously.

"But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." - Jesus

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

You are pulling Matt 5:22 out of context, thereby missing the whole point Jesus is making...that (Matt 5:20) unless your righteousness EXCEEDS that of the most righteous scribes and Pharisees, you not qualified for heaven .

In other words, there is no one righteous, not even one (Rom 3:10). There is no one who at one point or another doesn't break The Law. You don't have to murder someone to break The Law, all you have to do is call them a fool and you are as deserving of hell as any murderer.

Backing up to Matt 5:17 we see the explanation of 5:22, and the reason Christ came into this world...to fulfill The Law (that we cannot keep!) He fulfills it for us. He keeps The Law that we cannot keep. And our faith in Him credits us with righteousness.

You're a good man, Vic. You have never murdered anyone. But if you have ever been the least bit angry, or told even a white lie, you are as guilty of hell as any killer.

And you REALLY believe that this is what Jesus meant by his teaching?

And you REALLY believe that this is what Jesus meant by his teaching?

Did you not just read Matt 5:20? Jesus said it, I believe it.

So, where Jesus said that men are judged by their works, do you believe that? Or do you go with Paul?

You will either be judged by your works (leading you to the Lake of Fire), or you will be judged by your faith in the atoning work of Christ (which will lead to eternal life with Christ). Still wanna go with your works, which are as filthy rags?

But if you have ever been the least bit angry, or told even a white lie, you are as guilty of hell as any killer.

So Jesus was a sinner? He was known to be angry.

So Jesus was a sinner?

If Jesus were a sinner, He wouldn't qualify as the One to redeem us from our sin. He had to be the perfect Lamb.

Not all anger is sin.

Okay I just asked because you told Vic if you've ever been the "least"...

Yes, showing that Jesus' anger was sinless is a needed clarification. Thank you.

But if you have ever been the least bit angry, or told even a white lie, you are as guilty of hell as any killer.

So Jesus was a sinner? He was known to be angry.

So was God. Right?

I know, I know.... That was "righteous" anger. That's somehow different from ordinary anger.

I'm saying it does not add up. Anger is a response to insecurity, whether "righteous" or not, therefore it does not have a place anywhere in God's resume. All this theology has been constructed around the premise that the Bible is the Word of God. It's quite reasonable in my view that much of it is simply man made. God has been ascribed being capable of anger just being a way for the leaders of the ancient world to control, through fear, the people. It's the same thing that goes on today in our modern world. Surrender your rights or else everyone in the USA will be killed in a mass shooting or by some Islamic jihadist suicide bomber.

Submit or terrible things will happen to you. Same story, different millennium.