Once again you are putting your ignorance of the law on display.

That would be you doing that,Bubba. "The Law" is a flexible thing,able to be changed by any fool or group of fools in power at any given time.

Changing the US Constitution is a little more involved. It takes decades of robots like you working diligently in the background to change it,and even then it's not a sure thing you would get away with it.

"The People" are the ultimate rulers of this land,not as bunch of punk ass whore lawyers.

What people REALLY need is a firm dictator that can be a strict father figure,right?

Article III

Section 1.

"The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."

Your current judicial daddy is Chief Justice John Roberts.

The Constitution vested the judicial power in one Supreme Court, and such inferior courts as the Congress may establish. I can't find the secret codicil where the Constitution vested such judicial power in a cranky old blogger named sneakypete.

"The Law" is a flexible thing,able to be changed by any fool or group of fools in power at any given time.

As you are demonstrably an old fool, show me how you, on your own, change the law.

You can blog any damfool thing you want and it changes nothing.

"The People" are the ultimate rulers of this land,not as bunch of punk ass whore lawyers.

The truly ignorant people, such as yourself, who proclaim that their cranky stupid demented ideas displace the constitutional interpretations of the U.S. Supreme Court, barely rule the wild imaginations of their own delusional mind.

When the Court ruled that abortion was a right, that became the law in all 50 states.

When the Court ruled that same sex marriage was lawful, that became the law in all 50 states.

When and if the Court decides to rule differently, whatever they rule will be the law.

This is true, your absurd bleatings to the contrary notwithstanding.

When your absurdities meet reality, reality prevails.

I myself think that the best read of the Second Amendment is that it applies to personal firearms - not the other stuff (WMD, crew-served weapons, Claymore mines, napalm, et al).

Our point of political contention, then, is limited to machine guns. From my perspective, it's settled law (by Supreme Court decision). From yours, the Supreme Court overreached and had no authority to make such an opinion.

That fight I will leave between you and Nolu Chan, because from my perspective, the law as to where the line is drawn - machine guns - is right, but on this side of the line: handguns, semi-automatic weapons, carrying rights and the general harassment of gun owners by the government, the government is in the wrong and this right is heavily infringed by the authorities.

I'm ready and willing to roll back regulations and restrictions and limitations on handgun ownership and carrying, and "assault rifle" legislation which is based on semi-automatic weapons being "scary-looking". The Second Amendment, I believe, is much, much stronger and more protective than that.

Also, I think it is a national right that overrides all competing states rights. I do not believe that the states have the authority under the 9th or 10th amendments to infringe upon the First or Second, and that all claims of states rights against the First and Second by right out to be swept aside in favor of broad national free speech, free religion and guns rights.

In that context, I am a very good ally indeed, ready and willing to trot out the Constitution, logic, everything, to defend gun rights that I don't choose to exercise much, because I believe in the principle and understand the logic, and believe in the wisdom of the law, and also simply don't like to see the erosion of liberties I HAVE that I don't choose to much exercise, but could.

But I'm not going to go onto the battlefield to fight for the principles that Hondo has espoused, of some sort of absolute right to possess any sort of weapons. There are far, far too many crazy average citizens. I can trust my fellow citizens with guns even if some of them are crazy. But a nuke in their basement? (George Soros is rich enough to buy nukes. So is the Teachers Union. So is Monsanto.)

Machine guns do enough damage that I draw the line below the them. So if THAT'S the ground on which the fight has to be fought, then I'm sorry, I will not fight for the principle that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear machine guns. I do not believe that is prudent.

So for our purposes, I think it would be best not to continue down the Second Amendment road. I walk a lot farther down that road with you than you know, and am a lot more passionate about defending the right - within what I believe are its prudent boundaries - than most East Coast right wing people I know.

But I can't get to machine guns. I think that limit is right, and I think the Supreme Court decided wisely, and has the authority to draw that line.

So if that's what you and I focus on, we will destroy what otherwise would be a good alliance, over an irreconcilable difference in philosophical world view.

It isn't necessary, so I'm going to let it be. We both know that the Second Amendment doesn't protect any "right" of citizens to have nukes, chemical weapons, biological weapons, crew-served weapons, anti-aircraft missiles, land mines, bombs and the like.

We both agree that the people have the right to keep and carry pistols, shotguns and rifles, through semiauto.

I might be more absolutist than you: I think once a criminal does his time, he retains the right to keep and bear arms - just as he has the right to free speech and freedom of religion. Parolees are still doing time, but once the sentence is complete, I see no constitutional authority to permanently deprive a man of his right to free speech, free religion, guns or voting. You may not even go as far as I do in that - I don't see that the OPTION to deprive a man of his vote or his gun rights.

We don't agree on machine guns. We're not going to. Now, because I don't actually EXERCISE my right to keep and bear arms much, it's abstract to me. I'm willing to fight for it, even vote on that basis, but my passion for the subject cools pretty quickly when the guys alongside of me in the trenches are calling me "numbnuts" and treating me with disrespect because I don't agree with them on a certain precept.

We're not going to agree on machine guns. So that we remain allies in the bigger fight - which is to get the government out of the business of harassing people over their gun rights - I think we should lay off fighting one another on this subject. I strongly support the Second Amendment, within the rational boundaries that I think it falls, and my Midwestern Michigan boy beliefs in what is "rational" regarding guns sees handguns and long arms as tools that everybody has the right to have and to carry around unmolested, anywhere.

That's a pretty good ally. It's as good as you're going to get anyway.

Sure, Hondo is an absolute FANATIC on the subject - HE thinks there are no rightful restrictions on nukes.

I won't stay in the trenches with him. He can only hurt your cause, and I don't believe in his.

So I will leave the argument over machine guns to you and Nolu Chan. I think he's right on the law, and I like that outcome better, but I'd prefer not to divide the defenders of the Second Amendment on the issue. So I'm going to let it be with you on machine guns. That is, as far as I can tell, our only meaningful point of contention (though maybe you don't think that felons should still have the vote and guns rights, like I do - we don't have to fight over that either).

Irrelevant because none are individual weapons carried by the typical soldier.

It relevant because there are rich people and organizations that can afford to acquire WMD. If they have the constitutional right to, some will. And that's bad.

Not when they violate the original intent of the US Constitution.

As decided by whom? It clear to me that the original intent of the Constitution was to fully uphold the "right" of slaveholders to hold black slaves, and the implicit power of the states to discriminate against blacks and Indians based upon their race. I do not respect the original intent of the Founders on this matter - I do not believe any such right ever existed or CAN exist - and do not want to see the courts treating their evil ideas as authoritative either.

In a similar vein, they believed that the states had the right to establish official religion, and to continue to impose religious taxes and worship attendance, within the states, as some did at the time of independence. Their original intent in the First Amendment was to prevent the FEDERAL government from doing that, but to leave it to the states. I oppose the Founders' original intent on the matter. I do not believe that the states have any right to establish a religion, tax people to uphold it, and impose fines for non- attendance. The current Supreme Court agrees with me on this.

The Founders passed the Alien and Sedition Acts, making opposition to the President and his policies seditious speech. Their original intent regarding free speech was obviously altogether less thoroughgoing than ours today. I agree with us, and really don't care what sort of limitations were still hanging in their minds from their very British, class-based societies.

Original intent is not hard to discern. And it has resulted in a series of really bad things we've had to address as a nation (because the Founders' intent was pretty bad, morally, on certain things). So, while I agree that we can certainly examine and consider their original intent, I do not believe that what they emotionally intended or wanted is binding law on us, or should be. It's persuasive authority - dictum - nothing more (nothing less).

The Constitution vested the judicial power in one Supreme Court, and such inferior courts as the Congress may establish. I can't find the secret codicil where the Constitution vested such judicial power in a cranky old blogger named sneakypete.

Yet you have no trouble thinking a small cabal of political creatures and vest that sort of power in the hands of a blackmailed homosexual.

You really should consider changing your screen name to Shelton Cooper.

As you are demonstrably an old fool, show me how you, on your own, change the law.

What kind of fool are you? Show me where your lust bunnies have the authority to change the US Constitution,which is the law of the land.

Santa and the Easter Bunny,too

Is that where you got that crew served arms can be infringed?

My copy of the 2A just says "arms". BTW, "people" is plural as in more than one.

Show me where your lust bunnies have the authority to change the US Constitution,which is the law of the land.

The Supreme Court does not change the Constitution or law, it interprets it.

The authority is at Article III.

Where is the authority of blogger sneakypete to act as the Deemer™, and to deem laws or Supreme Court interpretations unconstitutional and of no lawful effect.

Mule headed moron.

Blah,blah,blah.More anal rantings from a human machine.

That's what happens when your jackass absurdities meet reality and you have no answer.

Pathetic. Try again.

As you are demonstrably an old fool, show me how you, on your own, change the law.

You can blog any damfool thing you want and it changes nothing.

"The People" are the ultimate rulers of this land,not as bunch of punk ass whore lawyers.

The truly ignorant people, such as yourself, who proclaim that their cranky stupid demented ideas displace the constitutional interpretations of the U.S. Supreme Court, barely rule the wild imaginations of their own delusional mind.

When the Court ruled that abortion was a right, that became the law in all 50 states.

When the Court ruled that same sex marriage was lawful, that became the law in all 50 states.

When and if the Court decides to rule differently, whatever they rule will be the law.

This is true, your absurd bleatings to the contrary notwithstanding.

When your absurdities meet reality, reality prevails.

Our point of political contention, then, is limited to machine guns. From my perspective, it's settled law (by Supreme Court decision). From yours, the Supreme Court overreached and had no authority to make such an opinion.

First of all,we need to define WHAT machine guns are protected for individual ownership under the 2nd Amendment,and which are not.

Individual weapons of the type carried by the typical infantryman ARE protected because they are carried by individual soldiers.

Belt-fed are not covered by the 2nd Amendment because they are crew-served weapons. Even stuff like the old VN-era M-60 were CREW SERVED,even though the weapon itself was carried by one man. He had an assistant gunner,and he had ammo carriers.

I hate this argument even though I have to make it because I,personally,have no interest in machine guns,or any interest in owning one unless it was a historic weapon like a BAR or a M3 greasegun. For one thing,I couldn't afford to shoot it if you gave it to me,so what good is it to me? For another,I am one of those who subscribe to the "1 shot,1 kill" theory. What makes me do my little "happy dance" is 3 shots touching in the bullseye at 100 yards.

Besides,if I have to carry the ammo,I damn sure don't want to waste it.

Now, because I don't actually EXERCISE my right to keep and bear arms much, it's abstract to me.

Machine guns are also abstract to me. I could have one if I wanted because the local sheriff told me all I have to do is apply and he will approve it. I guess I COULD afford to own one and occasionally shoot it if it were that important to me,but it isn't. I would rather use my bolt-action rifle to make ragged holes in targets off in the distance,and spend the rest of my money on antique autos and motorcycles. Truth to tell,I haven't even shot any of my bolt guns in a decade or more. I just kinda got bored with it. The only time I shoot any of my handguns or shotguns anymore is to shoot a snake or a rabid animal. My normal daily "carry gun" is a 22 LR revolver. I have larger caliber handguns and semi-autos,but the 22 will do what I need it to do,and is quieter,cheaper to shoot,and lighter to carry.

But I'm not going to go onto the battlefield to fight for the principles that Hondo has espoused,...

Yeah,he is a nutcase. Not that it makes any difference because nukes are crew-served weapons,and the FF'ers clearly wrote that crew-served weapons were to be kept in possession of local civil authorities,to be issued in times of emergencies when the militia gets called out.

Even then,for the life of me,I can not think of even one set of circumstances where a militia under the control of a local city/county government would ever need nukes

So if that's what you and I focus on, we will destroy what otherwise would be a good alliance, over an irreconcilable difference in philosophical world view.

Not from MY POV. This really is a circular argument for pro-gunners to argue over because it's theoretical and will remain that way unless the nation goes into revolt,and if that ever happens,the law is whatever you want it to be until the dust settles.

I do have friends that own machine guns,including one guy that owns a 50 cal belt fed. He can even afford to shoot it a few times once a year if he saves his money. The fool actually spent part of his inheritance to buy it.

I guess being a teenage weapons man in the army spoiled them for me. I don't see anything mystical or magical about them. I see them and think of all the work it takes to move them around,set them up ,and keep them fed and watered. GREAT things if you are keeping the hordes of Red China from coming up your hill to eat you,but pretty much useless for anything else.

I also don't see it as a big issue because damn few people have any interest in owning one. I literally know hundreds of people who own shotguns,handguns,and rifles,and less than a dozen that own machine guns. In other words,it really is a non-issue. Most people,even people with big bucks,just don't want one.

We don't agree on machine guns. We're not going to. Now, because I don't actually EXERCISE my right to keep and bear arms much, it's abstract to me. I'm willing to fight for it, even vote on that basis, but my passion for the subject cools pretty quickly when the guys alongside of me in the trenches are calling me "numbnuts" and treating me with disrespect because I don't agree with them on a certain precept.

My remark had NOTHING to do with machine guns,and everything to do with you or anyone else that thinks some asshat judge can rule them illegal from his lofty perch as a public servant. The ONLY way to make them illegal is to change the US Constitution.

BTW,machineguns aren't even illegal to own in Massachusetts. The Kennedy Klan has boocoo bodyguards carrying them around,even in Washington,DC. Remember the incident several years ago when one of Fat Teddy's bodyguards set off a metal detector when following Fat Teddy into the Senate chambers using a peon entrance instead of one for the nobility? The DC police ended up apologizing and giving the bodyguard his Uzi back.

They get away with this by forming a corporation,and then having the corporation buy and own the weapons.

Sure, Hondo is an absolute FANATIC on the subject - HE thinks there are no rightful restrictions on nukes.

Hondo is a anarchist,not a libertarian. Most people outgrow that by the time they turn 13 or 14,but not everybody.

So I will leave the argument over machine guns to you and Nolu Chan. I think he's right on the law,...

What good is it to be right on "the law" when "the law" is wrong? Brain farts like Heller are the result of a brain fart by a leftist judge being allowed to ignore the Bill of Rights because they conflict with his personal POV. It will remain "the law" right up to the moment someone takes over and decides it is no longer "the law" because it is clearly un-Constituional.

Despite what anal people who love to wear red and march in a straight line like Nolu think,the Bill of Rights are not open to change unless you want to dissolve America because without them there would have never been an America,

It relevant because there are rich people and organizations that can afford to acquire WMD. If they have the constitutional right to, some will. And that's bad.

See my post about the Kennedy Klan. EVERY rich family in America has machine guns,and most form a family corporation,and have the corporation buy and possess them. That way you can legally own one even in places like San Francisco,DC,or Boston.

Corporations may be artificial people,but they have rights that real people don't have in some places. That IS the power of money.

It clear to me that the original intent of the Constitution was to fully uphold the "right" of slaveholders to hold black slaves, and the implicit power of the states to discriminate against blacks and Indians based upon their race.

That is not clear to me. Granted,that happened a lot and no one seemed to have any problem with it,but that doesn't mean it was Constitutional. The Preamble makes that pretty clear when it "talks" about "all people being created equal,with inalienable rights........."

The Supreme Court does not change the Constitution or law, it interprets it.

There ya go,and they interpret it according to their own prejudices.

Mule headed moron.

Better than than a Anal slave boy suckup with no opinion of his own.

I am primarily concerned with the ability of people to carry concealed pistols unmolested. THAT, as a practical matter, is the most important gun right, and it is HEAVILY suppressed. THAT Is where I will fight.

It is pretty damned hard to fight about side arms when your allies won't draw a logical line at thermonuclear weapons!

A line has to be drawn for every single right. ANY right without limitations is the loose thread by which the entirety of civilisation can, and will, be unravelled. There have to be lines and limits on all things - speech (no, you can't freely give away national secrets or engage in fraud), the press (no, you can't print and sell child porn), religion (no, you can't practice human sacrifice), privacy (no, you can't have an absolutely inviolable private fortress in which you can keep slaves unmolested), and arms (no, you can't have a nuke or a nerve gas grenade or weaponised anthrax).

I want those lines drawn on big perimeters, and I want broad, broad rights. I like liberty. But the philosophical understanding the EVERY RIGHT has its limits, and the willingness to face that squarely and clearly - that's important to me. Focusing on the private concealed carry of pistols, across state and city lines, without molestation - this is fundamental. Nukes, and machine guns, are not. But if we have to be Hondos and have to be purists and refuse to EVER draw a line, then the public dismisses us as nutjobs (because then we ARE nutjobs), and then we not only don't have nukes, we don't have pistols either, and we're harassed, and in trying to hold onto EVERYTHING - even the unreasonable and insane - we lose everything. To defend all is to defend nothing. I know that. You know it too.

The Second Amendment guarantees the right of every adult citisen, everywhere, except in prison and certain other obvious places (like inmates of lunatic asylums) to keep and bear pistols and long arms, including semi-automatic weapons.

That's where the fight should be - nukes and mustard gas must be conceded at the outright. I concede machine guns also.

The "Well regulated" part, I believe, DOES allow for the state to require training, and registration of some sort, but I think the right to carry is much broader, and I think the right to a license should be akin to a driver's license: you don't let drunks drive, but you can't stop everybody else.

That's a lot freer and more sensible, and more in keeping with the 2nd Amendment's language, than what we've got, or where the Hondos would take us.

The Preamble makes that pretty clear when it "talks" about "all people being created equal,with inalienable rights........."

That's the Declaration of Independence you're thinking of. That 1776 document reads, in part, "We hold these truths to be self-evident - that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights - that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" (or something close to that - that's from memory).

But the Preamble to the Constitution (1787) only says: We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America" (or something close to that - that's from memory too)

The toad Announces He’s a Few Weeks From Banning Bump Stocks

The Toad is a degenerate, habitual liar, ass-clown, tax-cheat, and delusional narcissist.

Why would any rational individual believe anything this national embarrassment, says?

Perhaps it is only the willfully irrational, and willfully ignorant who continue to buy into this disgusting racist's propaganda....

The world is watching, and laughing at U.S.

lol

The Supreme Court does not change the Constitution or law, it interprets it.

There ya go,and they interpret it according to their own prejudices.

You just blow it out your ass.

The Supreme Court is empowered by the Constitution to act as the highest authority of the federal judicial branch.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii

Article III Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

As a matter of law, nobody gives two shits what your interpretation of the Constitution is.

If you decided same sex marriage was unlawful, it would not stop legally authorized same sex marriage. If, prior to Obergefell, you decided that same sex marriage was constitutional, it would not have made same sex marriage lawful where a state prohibited it.

If you decided abortion was unconstitutional infanticide, abortion would still be lawful. If before Roe, you decided that abortion was a constitutional right, it would not have made abortion legal where the state prohibited it.

Where your idiotic interpretation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is directly contrary to U.S. Supreme Court precedent, your idiotic interpretation changes nothing. It is just bullshit on parade.

The U.S. RKBA was derived directly from the English common law RKBA.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals (1765)

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

As stated in 1802 and quoted in Lynch v. Clarke in 1844, "The constitution is unintelligible without reference, to the common law."

Heller, 524 U.S. 570, 627-28 (2008)

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); ...

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

You do not like what the law actually is. I do not care about what you do not like. You phony position is exposed when you choose not to exercise your bullshit right to own a modern machinegun as you know it would result in going to prison.

You cannot excercise a right that does not exist, and discretion being the better part of valor, you do not do what your bullshit asserts to be your constitutional right.

Your love of being pimped out by judges just becomes more obvious with every post you make.

Your fear of a judge sentencing you to sharing a cell with Bubba precludes your practicing the bullshit you make believe blog about.

You know what the law is. You just don't like it and act out on the internet. Your acting out does not change the law. You are not going to obtain or assemble a nice shiny new M-16 and flaunt it.

What a pathetic joke.

That's the Declaration of Independence you're thinking of. ... But the Preamble to the Constitution (1787) only says....

But neither the DOI nor the Preamble is a source of substantive law. The preamble was a product of the Committee on Style, and was not proposed or discussed on the floor of the convention before being added to the final draft of the Constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Drafting

The Preamble was placed in the Constitution during the last days of the Constitutional Convention by the Committee on Style, which wrote its final draft, with Gouverneur Morris leading the effort. It was not proposed or discussed on the floor of the convention beforehand. The initial wording of the preamble did not refer to the people of the United States, rather, it referred to people of the various states, which was the norm. In earlier documents, including the 1778 Treaty of Alliance with France, the Articles of Confederation, and the 1783 Treaty of Paris recognizing American independence, the word "people" was not used, and the phrase the United States was followed immediately by a listing of the states, from north to south. The change was made out of necessity, as the Constitution provided that whenever the popularly elected ratifying conventions of nine states gave their approval, it would go into effect for those nine, irrespective of whether any of the remaining states ratified.

Meaning and application

The Preamble serves solely as an introduction, and does not assign powers to the federal government, nor does it provide specific limitations on government action. Due to the Preamble's limited nature, no court has ever used it as a decisive factor in case adjudication, except as regards frivolous litigation.

Madison annotated his copy of the Report of Committee of Style with,

As Reported by Come. of revision, of Stile & arrangement. Sept. 12. consisting of Mr Johnson Mr Hamilton Mr. Morris, Mr. Madison & Mr King.

The Records of the Federal Convention of 1797, (Farrand's Records), Edited by Max Farrand, Professor of History in Yale University, Volume II, page 590.

It was an introductory paragraph added by the Committee of Style, and not proposed and discussed on the floor of the Constitutional Convention, as were the actual Articles of the Constitution.

The Preamble is not a source of substantive law

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/case.html

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

MR. JUSTICE HARLAN, after making the foregoing statement, delivered the opinion of the court.

We pass without extended discussion the suggestion that the particular section of the statute of Massachusetts now in question (§ 137, c. 75) is in derogation of rights secured by the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States. Although that Preamble indicates the general purposes for which the people ordained and established the Constitution, it has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments. Such powers embrace only those expressly granted in the body of the Constitution and such as may be implied from those so granted. Although, therefore, one of the declared objects of the Constitution was to secure the blessings of liberty to all under the sovereign jurisdiction and authority of the United States, no power can be exerted to that end by the United States unless, apart from the Preamble, it be found in some express delegation of power or in some power to be properly implied therefrom. 1 Story's Const. § 462.

But neither the DOI nor the Preamble is a source of substantive law.

Until the Supreme Court decides otherwise, which of course they could. The current court won't. Some future court might.

Words do indeed have meaning. Part of meaning is hierarchy of authority. When words conflict and lead to different ends, what prevails?

That’s what i focus on. The pretense that they don’t conflict is fantasy.

You need a dictionary.

The constitution as written includes a right to bear arms that Congress has no lawful power to limit.

myself think that the best read of the Second Amendment is that it applies to personal firearms - not the other stuff (WMD, crew-served weapons, Claymore mines, napalm, et al).

If you lie to yourself and pretend arms aren't arms. It days nothing about personal firearms. It says arms. Get out the dictionary.

No wonder you get the Bible wrong. You try to make unchangeable words fit what you think is rigjt.

A line has to be drawn for every single right.

Seems to me the line is already drawn. By DEFINITION,a handgun is an individual weapon,and a nuke is a weapon of mass destruction.

You are not going to obtain or assemble a nice shiny new M-16 and flaunt it.

No,I am not,but only because I don't want one.

I could if I wanted,though.

Legally.

myself think that the best read of the Second Amendment is that it applies to personal firearms - not the other stuff (WMD, crew-served weapons, Claymore mines, napalm, et al).

If you lie to yourself and pretend arms aren't arms. It days nothing about personal firearms. It says arms. Get out the dictionary.

Yes,but the definition of "arms" FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DECLARATION were already settled during the discussion that lead to the adoption,namely "arms of a type carried by individual soldiers". Meaning handguns,rifles,and shotguns. Such things are cannons and grenades are NOT included because cannons are crew-served weapons,and grenades are not firearms.

I have no idea why so many of us get sidetracked over the discussion of machine guns. Almost nobody really wants one bad enough to spend the kind of money it takes to buy one,and for civilian use such as hunting,target shooting,or self-defense,they are useless.

Don't forget,there are a lot of people in this country who have no desire to own ANY firearm,never mind a machine gun. We let crap discussions like this divert us from the real fight of keeping ownership and possession of actual useful firearms legal.

The Constitution says a well regulated militia. Therefore,arms are regulated. The only question is how much.

Absolutely not. This is simply a misinterpretation of a now archaic usage of the term well regulated.

The meaning of "well regulated" militia did not refer to gun control regulations. Now archaic, the meaning two centuries ago, in context, meant a militia well trained to use arms. The colonists of the day were experts at arms from their everyday hunting of squirrels, turkeys, and raccoons, and the like.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm

The meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 2nd amendment

From: Brian T. Halonen

The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

David E. Young, The Founders' View of the Right to Bear Arms, Golden Oak Books, Ontonagon, Michigan, 2007, pp. 63-64:

VIRGINIA'S WELL REGULATED MILITIA OF THE PEOPLE

The wording of Article 13 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which contained language relative to the Second amendment was:

SEC. 13 - That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

This language was written and adopted by men who were actively engaged in armed defense against the forces of government which they viewed as violating their constitution, rights, and liberty. Note that this language used by George Mason and the Virginia Convention in the Virginia Declaration of Rights closely followed that which Mason had used previously in describing the voluntary militia association for defense in several documents relating to Fairfax County. This prior Mason usage extends back to over a year earlier, prior to any hostilities with the British. In September 1774, Mason described a voluntary militia association of gentlemen and freeholders as the Fairfax Independent Company of Volunteers. The purpose of the volunteers associating was defense of their just rights and privileges upon principles of the British Constitution. Later, in January 1775. Mason discussed a well regulated militia in a document of the Fairfax County Committee of Safety. He described a well regulated militia composed of gentlemen freeholders and other freemen as the natural strength and only stable security of a free government. Mason indicated that such a militia would make standing armies unnecessary since they were ever dangerous to liberty. Mason's Committee recommended that the inhabitants from 16 to 50 years old voluntarily form companies, choose officers, and arm and train themselves. Then in a Febmary 6, 1775 plan for embodying the people of Fairfax Country, Mason largely repeated the Committee language of January, adding the term "safe" to the description of a well regulated militia being the natural strength and only safe and stable security of a free government. He specified that a well regulated militia was intended to include all able-bodied freemen from 18 to 50 years old. Finally, in mid-April 1775, Mason provided his views on the purposes for the men voluntarily embodying themselves as a well regulated militia in Fairfax County. These purposes were to preserve the inestimable rights inherited from their ancestors and to defend against the threatened ruin of the constitution. A well regulated militia was intended to introduce the use of arms, discipline, and a martial spirit of emulation. The reason was that in case of absolute necessity, the people might be able to act in defense of their invaded liberty

David E. Young, The Founders' View of the Right to Bear Arms, Golden Oak Books, Ontonagon, Michigan, 2007, pp. 16-17.

PLAIN TRUTH

Ben Franklin, being a very well-informed person and a printer, was in an exceptionally favorable position to publicize his concerns about the defenseless situation of Pennsylvania. In an attempt to rouse his fellow Pennsylvanians to prepare for organized defense of the Colony, he wrote a pamphlet entitled Plain Truth that was publishcd on November 17. 1747. In Plain Truth. Franklin noted that all parts of Pennsylvania from the frontier areas to the Delaware shoreline were subject to attack at the whim of Britain's enemies. He noted the previous attacks along the Delaware and the probability that there were enemy spies within the Colony. It was Franklin's belief that a defensive remedy had to be prepared before the next sununer, or Philadelphia and Pennsylvania might be attacked, plundered, and destroyed. Franklin noted that if enemies ruined Philadelphia and the Colony of Pennsylvania, it would not be due to any lack of inhabitants able to bear arms in its defense. According to Franklin, there were at least 60,000 men in the Colony, not counting Quakers, who were familiar with firearms. The reasons which Franklin gave for all those men being familiar with their firearms, being able to defend themselves and the colony, and being hardy and bold was because they were all hunters and marksmen.

EXPERTISE IN THE USE OF ARMS

Considering that the able-bodied males in colonial Pennsylvania had never been required by law to possess their own arms for organized defensive purposes, as the men in the other colonies had under their militia laws, it might be assumed that there were few firearms possessed by the people of Pennsylvania. Any such assumption would be completely incorrect, however. Benjamin Franklin's Plain Truth clearly indicated that large numbers of Pennsylvanians not only possessed their own arms but were quite expert in their use. Apparently. the people of Pcnnsylvania were just as adept in the use of arms as those of Virginia described above. Militia laws were clearly not responsible for the people of Pennsylvania having and knowing how to use arms. It was the common possession and usage of arms for numerous everyday purposes such as hunting and target shooting that resulted in the population being familiar with arms and in a position to defend themselves and the Colony.

Recall Robert Beverly's 1705 book stating that Virginians spent all their lives shooting in the woods and as a result were very skillful in the use of arms. Beverly noted that with a little exercising the militia of Virginia, the free males 16 to 60, would be little inferior to regular troops. There is a very similar statement from Frothingham in Historv of the Siege of Boston. Frothingham stated that the habitual use of the fowling piece (bird hunting gun) made the farmers of Massachusetts superior to veteran troops in aiming the musket. Yet another example of this fact came from the Virginia/Pennsylania frontier. Joseph Doddridge described the normal situation on the frontier regarding a well-grown boy of twelve or thirteen. The lad was furnished a small rifle and shot pouch of his own. He then became a fort soldier and was assigned a porthole in the local defensive fort. However, it was not standing guard at a porthole during an alarm that made a young man knowledgeable in the use of his rifle. Instead, it was the everyday hunting of squirrels, turkeys, and raccoons that made him expert in the use of his gun.

But neither the DOI nor the Preamble is a source of substantive law.

Until the Supreme Court decides otherwise, which of course they could. The current court won't. Some future court might.

But until more than two centuries of legal interpretation is reversed, the DOI and the Preamble are uncitable as substantive law.

And as long as they are uncitable as substantive law, sneakypete can attribute any self-believed content to either one, and it cannot be cited as substantive law.

Whatever the DOI or Preamble may "clearly state," one must continue to look at the actual articles of the Constitution to find something substantive.

You just cut and paste,and have never had an original thought in your entire life,have you,Shelton?

You just deflect and divert when Court opinions and legal authorities establish that your delusions are bullshit, don't you Chester?

You are not going to obtain or assemble a nice shiny new M-16 and flaunt it.

No,I am not,but only because I don't want one.

I could if I wanted,though.

Legally.

Suuuuure, you could.

https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57557

Decorated Silver Star Veteran, POW Sentenced to 7 Years for a Gun He Bought 40 Years Ago

You can't register a shiny new M-16, and you go to prison if caught with your unregistered shiny new M-16.

There is no civilian lawful ownership of a machine gun made after 1986.

Except for you, of course. The law does not apply to you.

The supreme court granted itself power not found in the constitution. Perhaps that is for the best but an honest reading of the constitution doesn't give the supreme court the power they now have.

You may hold whatever opinion, and may even be theoretically correct, and it does not change what the law currently is. SCOTUS is the constitutionally appointed ultimate arbiter of what the law is. Pursuant to SCOTUS ruling, "separate but equal" was constitutional (Plessy) until it wasn't (Brown).

Stating what the law is does not mean agreement with it. It is only stating what the prevailing law is established to be.

SCOTUS has the final say on interpretation. Congress can change a law, or the people can amend a provision of the Constitution, and thereby override a SCOTUS interpretation.

You can't register a shiny new M-16, and you go to prison if caught with your unregistered shiny new M-16.

There is no civilian lawful ownership of a machine gun made after 1986.

Except for you, of course. The law does not apply to you.

So intelligent,but like your namesake on teebee,you don't have enough common sense to pour piss out of a boot.

If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

Yep, a brand new, 32-year old (minimum) rifle.

Definitely never first.

Yep, a brand new, 32-year old (minimum) rifle.

Definitely never first.

That just shows how little you know about firearms and the people who collect them.

[nolu chan #131] You can't register a shiny new M-16, and you go to prison if caught with your unregistered shiny new M-16.

There is no civilian lawful ownership of a machine gun made after 1986.

Except for you, of course. The law does not apply to you.

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[sneakypete #134] So intelligent,but like your namesake on teebee,you don't have enough common sense to pour piss out of a boot.

If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

[sneakypete #136] That just shows how little you know about firearms and the people who collect them.

You bleat on endlessly about how the law is unconstitutional and you do not have to comply with it, you only have to ask your local sheriff.

Now you check the boxes to comply with every last jot and tiddle of the law, to include buying a 32+ year old gun, and you say that is buying a brand new shiny M-16. It just goes to show how full of shit you really are.

Good luck with getting aa actual, real, brand new, shiny M-16.

https://floridaarmory.com/How-to-purchase-class-III.html

How to Purchase Class III NFA Weapons in the State of Florida

Did you know that owning a suppressor (silencer), machinegun, short barreled rifle or shotgun is legal in the state of Florida? You just need to go through the proper channels. At Florida Armory Gun Shop, we handle all the details for you. Here are some basic requirements necessary to purchase & own a Class III / NFA weapon:

*You must have a clean record, with no felonies

*You must be at least 21 years of age

*You must reside in the state of Florida

*You must have a valid identification issued by the state of Florida

* In the state of Florida, you must have a Trust, Corporation or CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) Approval Signature. Ask us for more information about those options.

Class III / NFA weapons such as suppressors, machineguns, short barreled rifles or shotguns & destructive devices carry a $200 tax. AOWs carry a $5 tax. This tax is payable when we send out your Form 4 to the NFA. The NFA Branch will take anywhere from 3-5 months to process and return your application with the $200 or $5 tax stamp. Once that arrives at our store, your weapon is ready to go home with you. Just come in to the store, pass a background check and your set to go!

And, just for the heck of it,

https://www.quora.com/In-America-is-it-legal-for-a-civilian-to-own-an-M16

Tim Gordon

Answered Nov 16 2017 · Author has 2.4k answers and 2.8m answer views

In America, is it legal for a civilian to own an M16?

It’s doubtful, depending on several things.

The major one is what state you live in. Some of them do not permit firearms required to be registered and taxed under the National Firearms Act to be owned by members of the general public.

Assuming that you do live in a state that allows NFA firearms, the next consideration is the M16 itself. As in US Rifle, caliber 5.56mm, M16. Note that ‘M16’ is an official US government designation for a rifle that it purchases and issues to members of its armed forces on an as-needed basis. That means that an actual M16 is US government property. If you have an real M16, that begs the question, “where did you get it from?” I personally know of no instances where M16 rifles were sold as surplus. They didn’t even do that with M14 rifles! A number of M16 rifles have been provided to other nations as military aid, but they cannot be lawfully imported into the US, and that is assuming that the rifles in question do not still belong to the US government. Quite often, that is the case and those rifles are expected to be eventually returned. In most instances, if a civilian possesses a real M16, it is stolen property. That is, in and of itself, illegal.

The rifles described in the preceding paragraph are military models that Colt Industries internally identified using a three digit model number, starting with the Model 601, which identifies Colt produced copies of the original ArmaLite AR-15. Very few of these would have ever been sold into civilian ownership. Any receiver that is stamped as an ‘M16’ likely has an interesting story behind it…

Colt civilian AR-15 models were autoloaders and appeared with the release of the Model R6000, more commonly known as the AR-15 SP1 ‘Sporter’ in 1964. Of the 20,000 or so ostensible ‘M16’s on the National Firearms Act Registry, a large number - probably a vast majority, in fact - are actually lawful conversions of Colt civilian AR-15 (identified by a four digit number) model lower receivers that were registered before May 19, 1986 and are thus transferable. Factory select-fire rifles were available from several manufacturers between 1977 when Colt’s patent on the AR-15 expired and 1986, but ran two to three times the cost of a regular autoloader, not counting the NFA tax and headaches, and few sold. Select fire Colt AR-15’s were available, even if not listed in the catalog, but similarly costly and unless you were buying for a governmental entity, you probably had to be a very special friend of someone important at Colt or one of its distributors.

The law refers to these as ‘M16’ rifles, but they are still just select-fire AR-15’s if they were never property of the US Department of Defense.

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Jeff Carlisle-Tierno, Type 1 FFL dealer with a gunsmithing business

Answered Mar 29

Yes and no.

It is an M16 IF it was built to the specifications proscribed by the Department of Defense AND built under a contract to produce M16s. M16 is a military nomenclature, not one which belongs to Colt Firearms.

In order to be able to legally own a US-made full auto in the United States, it has to have been manufactured and NFA registered prior to the implementation of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. To the best of my knowledge, no M16 rifle has been released for sale on the civilian market, and I don’t really see the same DoD which prevented the M14s from being released into the NFA market allowing it.

That being said, you CAN own the exact same rifle, except it will say “AR-15” on the receiver, rather than M16. The AR-15 is a family of firearms, which includes both select fire and semi auto only variants.

So the typical NFA tax stamp holder cannot, but they can own a rifle which for all practical purposes is identical.

Now that’s not to say that an M16 can’t be in civilian hands in the US - many of those rifles were sold or given to law enforcement agencies. While a number of the terms of use indicated that they must returned to the DoD upon completion of use, that isn’t always the case. In those instances, police departments can transfer them to NFA dealers, who are civilians. They can rent them out for use on firing ranges, transfer them to other NFA dealers, or sell them to other agencies which are authorized the use of such weapons (e.g., law enforcement agencies). They cannot be sold to civilians purchasing on the NFA retail market.