"At a gun show 40 years ago, Pick bought the rare M-14 rifle …"

More correctly, "At a gun show 40 years ago, Pick bought a full-auto M-14 rifle with the serial number filed off".

Not that the freethoughtproject would ever tell you.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the rifle ended up in some ATF agents collection, or will remain in some PD's evidence locker. To be forever enjoyed by the agents, or local cops.

"with the serial number filed off"

SMH.

Details details.

None of my flamingos have serial numbers either, BTW!

None of my flamingos have serial numbers either, BTW!

Yeah, but are they full-auto flamingos?

More correctly, "At a gun show 40 years ago, Pick bought a full-auto M-14 rifle with the serial number filed off".

Yes he should have known better.

Putting him in jail is a waste all the way around. Take the weapon and fine him some reasonable amount and be done with it.

Freethought plays fast with the facts. Not a very reliable source IMHO.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/10/17/decorated-vietnam-veteran-pow-sentenced-to-7-years-for-mistake-made-decades-ago/

Vietnam War Hero Sentenced On Illegal Gun Charges Was Violent And Abusive, Prosecutors Say

UPDATED: October 19, 2018 4:50 PM
By J.D. Miles
October 17, 2018 at 4:14 pm

[excerpt]

Federal prosecutors released more information on Friday shedding light on Pick’s dark past.

According to information presented to the court, Pick had repeatedly been cited for criminal trespass at various area hospitals for his aggressive behavior, involving both verbal and physical abuse of medical staff and impeding staff. The court also heard that police had been called on two prior occasions in 2014 to restaurant parking lots where patrons reported that Pick had been threatening and brandished handguns in encounters with him.

Also, Pick’s daughter reported to Pick had sexually abused her from the time she was 4-years-old until the age of 17, taking nude photographs of her to, as he put it, “chart her growth” and sexually assaulting her.

The court also received evidence that Pick threatened the Federal Magistrate Judge who detained him indicating he would fly his plane with explosives to kill the Judge and ATF agents who investigated his case. Pick also said he would “have taught the Las Vegas shooter a thing or two,” referring to the Oct. 1, 2017 mass shooting.

“Obviously, there was a lot more to the sentence that was received – a sentence that Mr. Pick and his lawyer agreed to – than a single gun with a missing serial number,” said U.S. Attorney Joseph D. Brown. “Although Mr. Pick was a decorated veteran, he would use that status routinely to try to excuse his repeated criminal behavior. This was also not a mental health issue. It became a public safety issue.”

READER COMMENTS:

Bill Hobbs
October 18, 2018 at 3:39 pm

Read this and warning bells rang because of the statement, “Short time as a POW”. I checked a number of Vietnam POW data bases and did not find Alfred Pick listed anywhere. So spent some time searching various data bases and again could not find any listing of a Silver Star or any awards for Alfred Pick.. I’m just an old disabled Marine Gunner so maybe I’m wrong. Semper Fi.

- - - - - - - - - -

John Hammond
October 18, 2018 at 4:04 pm

Pick was originally charged with 3 counts, including making a terrorist threat to the staff at a local hospital saying “What happened in Las Vegas is nothing compared to what I’m going to do to you people”. This resulted in them raiding his home to search for weapons and finding cocaine, pot and an automatic rifle with the serial number filed off. He has been banned from other hospitals as well. His only daughter was sexually abused by both Al and his wife from the age of 4 years old including digital and oral penetration, pornographic photographs, vibrators and forced bubble baths with body rubbing. Al denied this vehemently at the hearing, His daughter had photograph proof which she retrieved from Al’s house following his arrest. The judge reviewed the photographs with both attorneys in closed chambers and found Alfred’s denials and statements regarding his character to be false. When his house was raided, child pornography was also confiscated. Al confided to another neighbor that he had stolen the automatic weapon during a target practice session, hiding it under some leaves and returning that night to the range to retrieve it. A few years ago Al was arrested for banishing [sic - brandishing] a weapon over a parking space. Al refused to allow his wife’s body to be released for cremation for two weeks, holding it hostage as a tool to force his release.

Al Pick’s neighbor for many, many years.

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/vietnam-war-hero-sentenced-to-7-years-for-decades-old-rifle-purchase.1728060/page-9#post-26104352

TBO said:

Evidence was presented regarding Defendant’s verbal threat to kill hospital employees. Evidence was also presented regarding items recovered at Defendant’s residence, including, but not limited to, fourteen firearms, one of which was a machine gun, ammunition, marijuana, and cocaine. Evidence was also presented regarding Defendant’s habitual drug use, as well as alleged sexual misconduct with his daughter, including inappropriate pictures of his daughter as a minor. Notably, not one family member would agree to be Defendant’s third party custodian, and all expressed that they would fear for their safety if Defendant was released. Finally, evidence was presented that Defendant is a trained and licensed pilot and owns a plane. Based on the evidence presented at the hearing, the Court is unable to fashion any conditions that would ensure the safety of the community and that would ensure Defendant’s appearance as required in these proceedings. Therefore, the United States’ motion for detention (Dkt. 5) is GRANTED, and Defendant is detained pending trial.

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/guns/2018/10/17/american-hero-plano-sentenced-7-years-decades-old-rifle-purchase

Vietnam vet from Plano gets 7 years in prison after plea deal over decades-old rifle purchase

Written by Marc Ramirez, Breaking News Reporter DallasNews.com

[excerpt]

Pick pleaded guilty to the charge in April in a deal with federal prosecutors.

"It was probably the piece de resistance of his collection," Mark Shackelford, a friend of Pick's, told the TV station. "He had shown it to me. I've never seen it taken out of the case."

Federal agents also found Pick to be in possession of cocaine and marijuana, according to his indictment.

https://www.redcatcher.org/activek/roster.asp?sSearchName=&sSort=&sLetter=&showphotos=0&filter-sUnit=2nd+Battalion+3rd+Infantry&itemstart=401&itemsperpage=20&itemsort=

Redcatcher
199th Light Infantry Brigade
Viet Nam 1966-1970
199th LIB Association, Inc.
AKA Redcatcher Association
199th Infantry Brigade (Separate) (Light)
Member Directory

Filtered for 199th Infantry Brigade, 3d Infantry Regiment, 2d Battalion

Page 21, listing 401-420

There is no listing for Pick between Phillips and Pico.

Phillips, Ron
Unit: 2nd Battalion 3rd Infantry
Company: Delta
Dates with Brigade: 06/69 to 06/70
Home Town: Detroit, Mi

Pico, Pasquale
Unit: 2nd Battalion 3rd Infantry
Company: A
Dates with Brigade: 11/66 to 10/67
Home Town: Phila. Pa.

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.linkedin.com/in/alfred-pick-7709841

Honors & Awards

Air Medal
US Army
March 1969

Awarded for over 100 aerial combat assaults and direction of numerous aerial attacks on enemy positions. Shot down during combat operations.

- - - - - - - - - -

Silver Star Medal
US Army
May 1968

On May 19, 1968, 19 year old Second Lieutenant Alfred Pick assigned as Forward Observer attached to infantry company with 199th Light Infantry Brigade assumed command when commanding officer and all other infantry officers KIA during night attack by superior North Vietnamese force. Perimeter breached; attacking enemy force repelled and defeated. Leadership and inspiration of Lt. Pick credited with repelling attack and defeating enemy force. Lt. Pick awarded Silver Star Medal for "brave and valorous actions...in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service..."

LinkedIn is not an official source. It is an individual's brag sheet.

http://www.dpaa.mil/Our-Missing/Vietnam-War/Vietnam-War-POW-MIA-List/

Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency Fulfilling Our Nation's Promise

http://www.dpaa.mil/portals/85/Documents/VietnamAccounting/pmsea_acc_p_name_20181019.pdf

U.S. Accounted-For from the Vietnam War
Prisoners of War, Escapees, Returnees and Remains Recovered
Sorted by Name
Total Accounted: 1,843

No Alfred Pick, or anyone named Pick, is listed. DPAA is an official military source.

No Alfred Pick, or anyone named Pick, is listed. DPAA is an official military source.

I appreciate your due diligence.

Reminds me of

Vermin howell / david koresh

MenTal hisTory lock up case

Love
boris

Yeah, but are they full-auto flamingos?

Only if they get fed habanero peppers for breakfast.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/guns/2018/10/17/american-hero-plano-sentenced-7-years-decades-old-rifle-purchase

Decorated Vietnam vet had drugs, 14 guns when his family led ATF to his Plano [UPDATE]

Marc Ramirez
Breaking News Reporter
dallasnews.com

Updated at 7:15 p.m. Friday with comments from the veteran's daughter and the U.S. attorney's office.

A gun collector and decorated Vietnam veteran from Plano was hailed as an "American hero" by some — before his private arsenal and an illegal drug habit landed him in prison last week.

Federal authorities and Alfred Pick's daughter portrayed the 70-year-old retired Army lieutenant as a mentally unstable addict who ultimately led those closest to him to fear for his and their own safety.

"I didn't want to be the person who knew he was a danger and didn't do anything," said Pick's daughter, Amber Zable, who reported him to federal authorities. "I felt really conflicted about basically betraying my dad, but this person was a danger and a menace."

A year after federal agents raided Pick's home, U.S. Attorney Joseph Brown announced that a federal judge had slapped the decorated Vietnam veteran with a seven-year sentence for owning a firearm while illegally using controlled substances.

Agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms also found Pick to be in possession of cocaine and marijuana, according to his indictment. He pleaded guilty to the charge in April in a deal with federal prosecutors.

[...]

Pick's daughter told The Dallas Morning News that her father's mental health had increasingly deteriorated as he cared for her terminally ill stepmother, who she said suffered from a rare, degenerative neurological disease.

"He started to become hopeless and frustrated," Zable said. "Being the primary caregiver for someone who is not going to get better is very emotionally, physically, mentally and financially taxing. It really started to wear on him."

Her father's longtime drug use, she said, became even more problematic.

After her stepmother died, Zable and her husband began going through her father's property as they tried to sort out the deceased woman's affairs, and they were alarmed by the amount of drugs and weapons in the home. That's when they decided to call federal authorities.

The ATF found more than 2 grams of cocaine, more than 10 grams of marijuana and 14 firearms at Pick's home, including the one with the obliterated serial number.

Prosecutors also informed the court that Pick had been repeatedly cited for criminal trespass at area hospitals for his aggressive behavior and that police had twice been called in 2014 to defuse situations in which Pick had brandished handguns and threatened others.

In exchange for Pick's guilty plea to the charge for which he was convicted, two other charges were dismissed: possession of an unregistered firearm and possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number.

"Obviously, there was a lot more to the sentence that was received — a sentence that Mr. Pick and his lawyer agreed to — than a single gun with a missing serial number," said Brown, the U.S. attorney. "Although Mr. Pick was a decorated veteran, he would use that status routinely to try to excuse his repeated criminal behavior. This was also not a mental health issue. It became a public safety issue."

CORRECTION, 6:45 p.m. Oct. 19, 2018: A previous version of this story did not clarify that Alfred Pick was convicted for possessing a firearm while using illegal drugs. It also mistakenly said he lost his wife to cancer. She died from a neurological disease.

I appreciate your due diligence.

Thank you.

Pick's purported Silver Star citation states it is for action of 14 May 1968 by "Second Lieutenant (Field Artillery) Alfred Pick (ASN: 0-5428223), United States Army...." The purported citation is not from the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) in St. Louis (Overland) MO, but attributed to some file in the National Archives in College Park, MD as published by an unofficial source. I believe this may well be another exploit of the July 12, 1973 fire at the NPRC in St. Louis which destroyed about 18 million Official Military Personnel Files (OMPF).

The claimed Army Service Number appears bogus for the Vietnam era. (Wikipedia/

NPRC states, "No duplicate copies of these records were ever maintained, nor were microfilm copies produced. Neither were any indexes created prior to the fire. In addition, millions of documents had been lent to the Department of Veterans Affairs before the fire occurred. Therefore, a complete listing of the records that were lost is not available. However, in the years following the fire, the NPRC collected numerous series of records (referred to as Auxiliary Records) that are used to reconstruct basic service information."

Pick's LinkIn page states, "On May 19, 1968, 19 year old Second Lieutenant Alfred Pick assigned as Forward Observer attached to infantry company with 199th Light Infantry Brigade...."

Pick's date of birth was April 27, 1948 in Oceanside, New York. By my reckoning, Pick turned 20 on April 27, 1968, and was 20 on May 19, 1968.

I was in the Navy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you have stated you were in the Army back when. In your experience, did you ever come across a 19/20-year 2nd Louie in the Army? I never heard of a 19/20-year old Ensign in the Navy. It sort of presupposes that somebody got a college degree at 19 and quickly signed up for the Army.

Pick's LinkedIn page also claims an Air Medal for March 1969 (at 20 years old), "Awarded for over 100 aerial combat assaults and direction of numerous aerial attacks on enemy positions. Shot down during combat operations." This sort of presupposes Pick somehow went from a forward observer in the infantry to doing whatever he was doing 10 months later to be awarded an Air Medal for 100 aerial combat assaults. It does not state, but infers he was flying the plane.

Wikipedia says, "The medal is awarded to anyone who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Armed Forces of the United States, distinguishes himself or herself by meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight."

I'm ex-Navy and don't know much about infantry or Army, but I just don't see how an infantryman would distinguish himself while participating in aerial flight. These two claims, when considered together, make no sense to me. Does it make sense to someone with Army experience?

Secondly,I would have to inspect it myself before I would agree it is even a selective-fire M-14,or the civilian semi-auto version known as the M-1A. Even if it is a M-14,it is not a full-auto weapon without the selective fire switch. Not all M-14'S were issued with selective-fire capabilities because most soldiers were teen age kids that had a tendency to hold the trigger back until it quit making loud noises,and if they hit anything at all,it was one of their fellow soldiers.

I was never in a conventional infantry unit in VN,but have been told by those who were that generally speaking,the platoon sgt would have one full-auto M-14 per squad,and that would be the most experienced soldier. Which follows along with how the old BAR the M-14 replaced was used.

Full-auto fire mostly wastes ammo and accomplishes nothing except for when you are using it to provide cover fire to keep the enemies heads down while your troops are advancing on them,or when the enemy is advancing on you and are very close. Even then the idea was to shoot short bursts. VERY easy to do with the old BAR because they had a "slow fire" and a "fast fire" selector switch,and on slow fire it was really easy to shoot 3 round bursts. Plus,as I wrote above,it was usually the most experienced soldier in the squad that got issued the BAR and they understood that a empty weapon was useless.

The thing is not many people these days know the difference between a M-14 and a M-1A,and this includes many BATF agents and local cops. The M-14 hasn't been a standard issue item since around 1969,so most people have never even seen one. Which means this USAF Pilot guy may have ACCIDENTALLY bought a M-14 with the selector switch on it and had no freaking idea it was an automatic rifle he was buying,or it could mean it's a M-1A and not an actual M-14 and the cops didn't know what the hell they were doing.

It's going to unnecessarily cost this sick old guy some money and more than a little embarrassment,but in the end the charges will be dropped even if it is a M-14 with the selector switch. After all,how many juries would be willing to convict him when it is obvious neither he nor the rifle was any danger to anyone,and it was an innocent misunderstanding?

Pick bought a full-auto M-14 rifle with the serial number filed off".

HorseHillary! You have watched too many movies. Since an actual M-14 can't be traced back to the seller anyhow,why the HELL would anybody bother to grind a serial number off of it?

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the rifle ended up in some ATF agents collection, or will remain in some PD's evidence locker. To be forever enjoyed by the agents, or local cops.

That's not a bet I would take.

This was also not a mental health issue. It became a public safety issue.”

It is usually both.

Pick was originally charged with 3 counts, including making a terrorist threat to the staff at a local hospital saying “What happened in Las Vegas is nothing compared to what I’m going to do to you people”. This resulted in them raiding his home to search for weapons and finding cocaine, pot and an automatic rifle with the serial number filed off.

I would be willing to bet he filed the number off himself. Filing/grinding a serial number off a gun instantly decreases it's sales value by at least 90 percent. ANYBODY that buys a gun with the serial number removed is either clueless or a fool because you can never make the claim you didn't know the weapon was stolen. Not even if you were that ignorant. Nobody is going to believe it.

Al confided to another neighbor that he had stolen the automatic weapon during a target practice session, hiding it under some leaves and returning that night to the range to retrieve it.

Yeah,ask ANYBODY that has ever been in the military how likely that is to happen. You ain't seen people jump through their asses until you have seen a full-auto weapon disappear between the range and the arms room. On top of that,everyone that came to the range came there in possession of a weapon,and platoon sgts routinely check each weapon to make sure it is unloaded before they leave the range. If you are standing there and don't have a weapon to show before getting on the trucks,you are going to have some splainin to do.

After reading the update nolu chan posted,I have to change my opinion to "lock his crazy,evil,child-molesting ass UP!" This guy is not senile,he is just a liar and evil on top of it.

Yeah, but are they full-auto flamingos?

Only if they get fed habanero peppers for breakfast.

They fire tracers after that?

I was in the Navy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you have stated you were in the Army back when. In your experience, did you ever come across a 19/20-year 2nd Louie in the Army?

I can't speak for them,but I sure did. I was even offered the chance to be one myself,but turned it down.

I don't know about the other branches,but the army had a OCS program that would turn enlisted swine into officers and gentlemen in 90 days. Graduates would receive a RESERVE commission as a 2nd Lt in whatever career field they chose or the army chose upon successful completion of the program instead of the Regular Army Commission that West Point grads and people with battlefield commissions received. MOST that decided to stay in had that converted to a Regular Army Commission after being promoted to 0-3,but I never heard of one going higher than Full Bird. Not even ones that received battlefield commissions due to getting a Medal of Honor,like Ola Mize or Bob Howard. If you wanted a star,you had to be a ring-knocker.

Since an actual M-14 can't be traced back to the seller anyhow,why the HELL would anybody bother to grind a serial number off of it?

Because he did not buy it, he was the one who stole it from the military?

Yeah,ask ANYBODY that has ever been in the military how likely that is to happen. You ain't seen people jump through their asses until you have seen a full-auto weapon disappear between the range and the arms room. On top of that,everyone that came to the range came there in possession of a weapon,and platoon sgts routinely check each weapon to make sure it is unloaded before they leave the range. If you are standing there and don't have a weapon to show before getting on the trucks,you are going to have some splainin to do.

Tks. Common sailors very rarely went to a range. SEALS and SeaBees would do that.

I don't know about the other branches,but the army had a OCS program that would turn enlisted swine into officers and gentlemen in 90 days.

The Navy had 90-day knife and fork school, but I never knew of a 19-year old going to it. Admittance direct from civilian life required a four year college degree.

Current Army requirements appear to require a 4-year college degree. In the Vietnam era, I am sure that was not the case. Then and now, the Navy LDO program allowed enlisted to become officers, but the time in grade E-6 requirement made doing it by age 19 impossible.

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/current-and-prior-service/advance-your-career/officer-candidate-school.html

Currently, the Army requirements include:

In order to qualify for Officer Candidate School as an active duty, enlisted Soldier, you must be:

• A college graduate with at least a four-year degree
• Must not have more than six years of Active Federal Service (AFS) upon arrival at OCS
• Between 19 and 32 years old (you must enter active duty or ship to training by your 33rd birthday and accept commission prior to age 34)
• Eligible for a secret security clearance

In order to qualify for Officer Candidate School as a civilian, you must be:

• A U.S. citizen
• A college graduate with at least a four-year degree
• Between 19 and 32 years old (you must enter active duty or ship to training by your 33rd birthday and accept commission prior to age 34)
• Eligible for a secret security clearance

In order to qualify for Officer Candidate School as a member of the U.S. Army Reserve, you must be:

• A college graduate with at least a four-year degree
• Must not have more than six years of Active Federal Service (AFS) upon arrival at OCS
• Between 18 and 32 years old (you must enter active duty or ship to training by your 33rd birthday and accept commission prior to age 34)
• Eligible for a secret security clearance

The Navy has a Limited Duty Officer (LDO) program that turns enlisted into officers, and does not require a 4-year college degree. The advancement path is capped at Captain (O-6). I had a good enlisted friend who asked me to assist with his LDO brag letter. I pulled an all nighter and wrote what proved to be a successful letter. Command suspected he got help from a Master Chief (E-9) and never found out I was the ghost writer. He retired at O-4.

Enlisted requirements for LDO include being E-6 with a year in grade. It is not possible to get it done by age 19.

https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/officer/communitymanagers/active/ldo_cwo/Pages/applicantinformation.aspx

LDO

Enlisted eligibility requirements for the active duty and inactive duty LDO Program

In addition to the eligibility requirements listed on the eligibility page, LDO applicants must also meet the following requirements:

a. Be serving as a Petty Officer First Class (E-6) or Chief Petty Officer (E-7 through E-9). An E-6 must have served in that capacity for at least 1 year as of 1 October of the year application is made. Such service shall be computed from the time-in-rate (TIR) date for an E-6. If broken service is involved, a PO1 must have served a total of at least 1 year as an E-6 as of 1 October of the year application is made.

Because he did not buy it, he was the one who stole it from the military?

Maybe,but it seems unlikely. I am starting to doubt he was even in the military,and grinding away a serial number or being in possession of a modern weapon with no serial number is pretty much an admission of felony guilt x 2. The first felony when you stole it,and the second felony when you ground the serial number off of it.

You could probably keep a stolen M-14 in a rifle rack in your house for decades with nobody suspecting anything,but anybody that knows anything about guns will drop it like a hot potato the instant they see the serial numbers have been removed.

I have heard horror stories about conventional army units in VN being over ran at night because the asshole Regular Army commanders they had insisted on everyone's weapons but THEIRS and those on guard duty be locked up in arms rooms.

I personally know of one incident where a mortar round landed somewhere close enough you could hear it,and the alleged leadership of a conventional US Army support company went batshit crazy and insisted the arms bunker be opened and everyone issued M-14's and ammunition. I also know for a fact the company armorer (me) told them to kiss my ass because I wasn't issuing any weapons to anyone.

I arrived in VN with a pulled muscle in my lower back and a dislocated shoulder,so I couldn't keep my SF assignment because I was physically unable to run missions. Because of this I was sent to a straight leg signal battalion right there at Nha Trang to serve time until my profile expired,and I could go back to SF.

Since they didn't know what else to do with me,they made me the company armorer.

Their "plan" in case of attack was to have the troops fall out and run behind the sandbag walls alongside each barracks,and prepare to open fire on the attacking enemy. There were a couple of "slight" problems with this "plan".though. The prime one being these were people who hadn't fired or even handled a weapon since basic training were to be issued full-auto M-14's,and would have them resting on the top sand bags and facing the guys in the platoon next to them and MAYBE 30 feet away who were also resting their full-auto M-14's on the sandbags beside their barracks. If just ONE shot had been fired,they would have all opened up and shot each other to shreds. ONE VC running though the company area and firing ONE AK burst would have resulted in dozens of deaths and who knows how many injuries from wounds?

When the CO started bitching at me about refusing to issue weapons and ammo,I told him "Fine,do it,but at the court-martial I am going to tell them why I did it,and that YOU would have been responsible for all the resulting deaths and wounds." That shut him up.

Keep in mind this was a rear echelon signal battalion,not a infantry unit,though.

Once back in SF I could and did walk into the arms room and say stuff like "Gimme a silenced M3 greasegun and a case of frag grenades",and the supply sgt would just hand them over. Didn't even have to sign for them. The difference was we were all NCO's or officers,and we WERE a front line combat unit. We needed them or we wouldn't have asked for them. In a regular infantry unit with a small percentage of NCO's and officers,and 75 percent or more of the others being privates only a year or two in the army,the rules would have been stricter. For one thing,there was no danger of any of us getting drunk and shooting each other. It just didn't happen. Ever.

Tks. Common sailors very rarely went to a range. SEALS and SeaBees would do that.

They probably did like we did in SF. Not so formal. Everybody went to the arms room and checked out there weapons and ammo,and jumped into their cars and drove to the range. The highest ranking people there got stuck with being the range safety officers and NCO's. The rest of us would just blast away on full-auto to get it over with,get back in our cars,and go back to the arms room to turn them in after cleaning them.

It was a waste of time and ammo to require us to go to the range once a year to prove we knew how to shoot safely and that we could hit what we were aiming at,but the army required it.

The Navy had 90-day knife and fork school, but I never knew of a 19-year old going to it.

The minimum age in the army was 18 years old. No big deal since almost all of the graduates became Infantry Branch officers,and a 2nd Lt (0-1) is basically a highly paid Private with responsibilities in the infantry. They are adopted by the platoon sgts they work with,and that's who really runs the platoon and teaches the 0-1 the tricks of the trade.

There are no civilian occupations comparable to infantry platoon leader,so that's why that system works.

Admittance direct from civilian life required a four year college degree.

Ahhh,the army does that too,but ONLY in branches or occupations where specialized knowledge is required,like engineering,Military Police,etc,etc,etc. I had a cousin from NYC (I know,the shame,the shame!) enlist as a E-6 because he had a degree in physical education,and had tried out for the Olympics. His job was to teach physical education stuff at the base Special Services building to soldiers,their wives,and their children.

Lots of guys with technical or scientific degrees enlisted as 0-3's.

COMPLETELY different system than OCS,though.

Come to think of it, I think I knew a pilot who was an LDO. He wasn’t a Warrant, though, but a regular LT, without a college degree.

I just never met one who was 19 years old. Pick was supposedly an infantry 2LT awarded a Silver Star at 19, and 10 months or 300 days later had flown 100 air combat missions and was awarded an Air Medal.

I can’t speak for the Army at all. That seems like such a complicated organization.

It is a different world from the Navy, for sure. I served alongside Army types at a NATO command.

It seems unlikely that a 19 year old would have accomplished all of that. In any case, I think I read above that the guy was trafficking drugs and threatening people, and that those things are what attracted the attention of the authorities.

His claimed military history sounds lke a sea story to me, but lots a sources unquestioningly cite it or echo it as fact. His daughter and her husband reported him to authorities.

I don't know about the other branches,but the army had a OCS program that would turn enlisted swine into officers and gentlemen in 90 days. Graduates would receive a RESERVE commission as a 2nd Lt in whatever career field they chose or the army chose upon successful completion of the program instead of the Regular Army Commission that West Point grads and people with battlefield commissions received. MOST that decided to stay in had that converted to a Regular Army Commission after being promoted to 0-3,but I never heard of one going higher than Full Bird. Not even ones that received battlefield commissions due to getting a Medal of Honor,like Ola Mize or Bob Howard. If you wanted a star,you had to be a ring-knocker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Vessey_Jr.

There are a few other Mustangs who made General but how they ended up there is sketchy especially when it comes to battlefield commissions.

Were you Navy?

Yes. USN, Ret., 20 years active duty.

Officer or Enlisted?

LANT Fleet OR PAC Fleet?

There are a few other Mustangs who made General but how they ended up there is sketchy especially when it comes to battlefield commissions.

I never heard of this happening with anyone involved in special operations. Being a redleg meant he had the conventional brass on his side. I personally knew people who did a lot more than he did,and they retired as Full Birds after being promoted at their retirement parties.

Look at the careers of Robert Howard and Ola Mize,for two examples.

I never heard of this happening with anyone involved in special operations. Being a redleg meant he had the conventional brass on his side. I personally knew people who did a lot more than he did,and they retired as Full Birds after being promoted at their retirement parties.

Since SO/SF groups are small you wouldn't think there would be that many postings for a General to begin with. Besides doesn't the Army want their Generals to have experience with "the big picture" (experience in other areas/bigger units) before they are considered for promotion to that rank??

Look at the careers of Robert Howard and Ola Mize,for two examples

Very impressive careers, Howard was nominated for the MOH three times before he received it.

Since SO/SF groups are small you wouldn't think there would be that many postings for a General to begin with.

That used to be true. Back in the mid-60's there was only 1 General in the entire US Army,and he only had 1 star. You can't walk around Bragg now without tripping over them.

Besides doesn't the Army want their Generals to have experience with "the big picture" (experience in other areas/bigger units) before they are considered for promotion to that rank??

That used to be true,but these days it SEEMS like they want every ring-knocker that ever put in the time to graduate from West Point to wear a Green Beret. For 1 tour,anyway. Helps promotion.

I am convinced they want this more to destroy SF than to help it. I have seen conventional Lt or full Colonels come into SF with novice (5 jump) jumpwings straight out of the very,VERY special jump school the army runs for field grade officers,and take over a SF group. They stay there a year or two to fuck it up,and then move on to a Special Operations Joint Command to get another star or two.

Please do not misunderstand me. I do NOT ridicule technical branch officers that wear stars because they spent years serving in their technical fields,and deserve the stars. I have NO use for politically-connected losers that use the Old Boy West Point Protective Society to gain ranks and commands they are in NO respect qualified to hold.

Howard was nominated for the MOH three times before he received it.

I know. He was serving as the 1st Sgt of Recon Company at Kontum while waiting to see if he was going to get it. Bob was the one that greeted me and gave me my initial briefing when I first got there.

Ola Mize was my Company Commander on Okinawa. He was also one of the nicest men you or anyone else could hope to meet. A true gentleman in the traditional meaning of the word. He just died a few years ago (so did Bob),and people like that are hard to replace.

BTW,I am not "putting on airs" or claiming some special spot because I call Robert Howard "Bob". Everybody that knew or served with him either called him Bob,or stayed the hell away from him. If you weren't on a first name basis with him when he was the first shirt at Recon Company,you would not be in Recon Company for very long.

I called Ola Mize "Sir" or "Colonel". (smile)

I know. He was serving as the 1st Sgt of Recon Company at Kontum while waiting to see if he was going to get it. Bob was the one that greeted me and gave me my initial briefing when I first got there.

I got the impression the first two were downgraded so as not to bring undue attention to the locations of his actions, which is a shame. If the man deserves it he deserves it, embarrassment to the government be damned. They would have made him the one and only triple award recipient if what I've read is correct.

He just died a few years ago (so did Bob),and people like that are hard to replace.

Not many guys like that left in this world and am not sure if they ever will be replaced. The world is a different place and has different values than when they were born/grew up, so it is not conducive to spawning guys like that.

IIRC,we were pretty much told this could happen shortly after getting to SOG. Besides,you don't really have to be a genius to figure out you are NOT going to get the rewards of conventional soldiers when you are initially briefed and told you will turn in your Army ID card and dog tags before each mission,and will go into the jungle wearing sterile fatigues and carrying sterile weapons. Even our CAR-15's and M-16 were weapons that had been reported stolen from various armories.

On top of this add the normal confusion involved in a situation where you have a 6 man recon team or a Hatchet Force platoon in a running gun battle with sometimes hundreds of NVA regulars chasing after them,team members becoming separated due to laying behind to provide cover fire,getting wounded or killed,and sometimes the only survivors dying of wounds after being extracted and there was no one left alive or available to put anybody in for anything,and ALL valor awards require multiple eye witnesses. Even if common sense and experience tells you that a lone survivor pulled from a hole in the jungle that has been shot up and almost out of ammo had to do some pretty serious stuff to have survived long enough to get rescued,no witnesses to write him up means no valor award.

Then there are situations like at least one personnel clerk that served at Group Headquarters at Nha Trang admitted to years after the VN war ended. He said he was jealous of all the valor awards SOG guys were getting when he wasn't getting any,so every time he got a chance and figured he could get away with it due to whole teams being shot up and separated as they were sent off to various hospitals to recover or to the graveyard,and he just threw the documents into his trash can.

I personally received a valor award from the South Vietnamese government that I didn't even know I had been put in for,and got none of the US valor awards I was supposed to have received. The SVN government mailed it to me,and he never told me I got it. Which was common because fellow team members die,get transferred to stateside hospitals far away,and get discharged from the army without ever seeing or talking to their former teammates again. That's how the clerk got away with throwing award award citations.

Even IF everyone survives,there were only 3 Americans on a recon team. The rest of the team members were Montengyards or Vietnamese,and couldn't write you up for an award. Lose ONE American team member,and getting the regular army to approve a valor award is pretty damn tough,and the regular army regulations also applied to SF soldiers.

Most people didn't really seem to care. In my case,I was out of the army less than a year after getting med-evaced from VN,and army awards mean nothing once you are out of the army,so I didn't really care. Still don't care.

BTW,despite all of the above,I have read several places that MACV-SOG still received a higher percentage of valor awards than any other unit in the history of the US Army. There were probably less than 50 Americans (never counted,so am guessing) at the FOB where I was assigned,and I have stood in a Recon Company formation with 3 living Medal of Honor winners. Not many people can make that claim.

Not many guys like that left in this world

There were never many guys like that alive in this world,yet each generation produces a few.

For all we know,each generation produces many heroes,both male and female,but most are never in a position to "rise to the surface" and become publicly known.

So they just become "everyday heroes",their sacrifices and dedication only known to the families they raised. I don't care who you are or what standards you put on the words "courage" and "hero",it takes courage to marry and have children,and take on that financial and emotional burden if you are not born to wealth or position,and then stick with it and do it RIGHT.

My hat is off to all of you who have done this,and done it right. Civilization would not exist without you.