Why Radical Libertarians Are the New Communists

Source: evonomics.com
Published: Jun 21, 2016
Author: Nick Hanauer and Eric Liu
Post Date: 2018-07-10 03:51:55 by Gatlin
Views: 5195

A toxic strand of a political ideology.

Most people would consider radical libertarianism and communism polar opposites: The first glorifies personal freedom. The second would obliterate it. Yet the ideologies are simply mirror images. Both attempt to answer the same questions, and fail to do so in similar ways. Where communism was adopted, the result was misery, poverty and tyranny. If extremist libertarians ever translated their beliefs into policy, it would lead to the same kinds of catastrophe.

Let’s start with some definitions. By radical libertarianism, we mean the ideology that holds that individual liberty trumps all other values. By communism, we mean the ideology of extreme state domination of private and economic life.

Some of the radical libertarians are Ayn Rand fans who divide their fellow citizens into makers, in the mold of John Galt, and takers, in the mold of anyone not John Galt.

Some, such as the Koch brothers, are economic royalists who repackage trickle- down economics as “libertarian populism.” Some are followers of Texas Senator Ted Cruz, whose highest aspiration is to shut down government. Some resemble the anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, who has made a career out of trying to drown, stifle or strangle government.

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Enter Your Email Yes, liberty is a core American value, and an overweening state can be unhealthy. And there are plenty of self-described libertarians who have adopted the label mainly because they support same-sex marriage or decry government surveillance. These social libertarians aren’t the problem. It is the nihilist anti-state libertarians of the Koch-Cruz-Norquist-Paul (Ron and Rand alike) school who should worry us.

Human Nature

Like communism, this philosophy is defective in its misreading of human nature, misunderstanding of how societies work and utter failure to adapt to changing circumstances. Radical libertarianism assumes that humans are wired only to be selfish, when in fact cooperation is the height of human evolution. It assumes that societies are efficient mechanisms requiring no rules or enforcers, when, in fact, they are fragile ecosystems prone to collapse and easily overwhelmed by free-riders. And it is fanatically rigid in its insistence on a single solution to every problem: Roll back the state!

Communism failed in three strikingly similar ways. It believed that humans should be willing cogs serving the proletariat. It assumed that societies could be run top-down like machines. And it, too, was fanatically rigid in its insistence on an all- encompassing ideology, leading to totalitarianism.

Radical libertarianism, if ever put into practice at the scale of something bigger than a tiny enclave, would also be a disaster.

We say the conditional “would” because radical libertarianism has a fatal flaw: It can’t be applied across a functioning society. What might radical libertarians do if they actually had power? A President Paul would rule by tantrum, shutting down the government in order to repeal laws already passed by Congress. A Secretary Norquist would eliminate the Internal Revenue Service and progressive taxation, so that the already wealthy could exponentially compound their advantage, as the programs that sustain a prosperous middle class are gutted. A Koch domestic policy would obliterate environmental standards for clean air and water, so that polluters could externalize all their costs onto other people.

Radical libertarians would be great at destroying. They would have little concept of creating or governing. It is in failed states such as Somalia that libertarianism finds its fullest actual expression.

Extreme Positions

Some libertarians will claim we are arguing against a straw man and that no serious adherent to their philosophy advocates the extreme positions we describe. The public record of extreme statements by the likes of Cruz, Norquist and the Pauls speaks for itself. Reasonable people debate how best to regulate or how government can most effectively do its work — not whether to regulate at all or whether government should even exist.

The alternative to this extremism is an evolving blend of freedom and cooperation. The relationship between social happiness and economic success can be plotted on a bell curve, and the sweet spot is away from the extremes of either pure liberty or pure communitarianism. That is where true citizenship and healthy capitalism are found.

True citizenship enables a society to thrive for precisely the reasons that communism and radical libertarianism cannot. It is based on a realistic conception of human nature that recognizes we must cooperate to be able compete at higher levels. True citizenship means changing policy to adapt to changes in circumstance. Sometimes government isn’t the answer. Other times it is.

If the U.S. is to continue to adapt and evolve, we have to see that freedom isn’t simply the removal of encumbrance, or the ability to ignore inconvenient rules or limitations. Freedom is responsibility. Communism failed because it kept citizens from taking responsibility for governing themselves. By preaching individualism above all else, so does radical libertarianism.

It is one thing to oppose intrusive government surveillance or the overreach of federal programs. It is another to call for the evisceration of government itself. Let’s put radical libertarianism into the dustbin of history, along with its cousin communism.

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#1: Deckard    To: Gatlin (#0)

Oh lookie here - another rabid hit piece against libertarians.

Reasonable people debate how best to regulate or how government can most effectively do its work — not whether to regulate at all or whether government should even exist.

libertarians are not in favor of eliminating government altogether. Statists on the other hand want total government control. Apparently you fall into this camp since all of your recent hit-pieces have been disparaging of limited government.

Schmuck!

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 06:34:44   Reply   Private Reply

#2: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#1)

Oh lookie here - another rabid hit piece against libertarians.
And it’s a great one too....read it very carefully.

Oh, keep watching....there will be more rabid hit pieces on a daily basis.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 06:52:35   Reply   Private Reply

#3: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#1)

libertarians are not in favor of eliminating government altogether.
Has there ever been a successful libertarian type operating government?

As I look at the various forms of world's governments, and closely survey the governments that possibly most closely resemble libertarian philosophies of their version of government, I am unable to find any that have created a country remotely as powerful, wealthy and prosperous as the United States. Maybe I have missed something. What example do you libertarians cite as proof that your quackery works in a real-world government?

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 07:01:42   Reply   Private Reply

#4: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#1)

Statists on the other hand want total government control.
Nah! You are mixed up here, bub. Go look up the definition of “statist” and you will find that a statists is “an advocate of a political system in which the state has substantial centralized, NOT total, control over social and economic affairs.”

When you speak about a government that totally controls a country, especially in a strict or unfair way....you are talking about a “regime.” So, let’s coin a new word and get you on th right track to say: “Regimist on the other hand want total government control.”

There ...

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 07:46:49   Reply   Private Reply

#5: Deckard    To: Gatlin (#2)

...there will be more rabid hit pieces on a daily basis.

Rabid: extreme, fanatical, overzealous, extremist, maniacal.

Seek help psycho.

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 08:09:54   Reply   Private Reply

#6: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#5)

...there will be more rabid hit pieces on a daily basis.

Rabid: extreme, fanatical, overzealous, extremist, maniacal.

Absolutely, those adjectives are used to describe libertarians in many of the articles.
Seek help psycho.
Nah. I can handle the task alone, thank you.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 08:30:58   Reply   Private Reply

#7: Deckard    To: Gatlin (#6)

Rabid: extreme, fanatical, overzealous, extremist, maniacal.

Absolutely, those adjectives are used to describe libertarians in many of the articles.

Bullshit! You used the term to describe yourself and your articles statist clown.

Did a libertarian steal your girlfriend in high school?

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 08:38:25   Reply   Private Reply

#8: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#7)

Did a libertarian steal your girlfriend in high school?
Libertarians STEAL?

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 09:58:30   Reply   Private Reply

#9: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#7)

You used the term to describe yourself
Link, please?

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 10:00:13   Reply   Private Reply

#10: Deckard    To: Gatlin (#8)

Did a libertarian steal your girlfriend in high school?

Libertarians STEAL?

Don't be an asshat - just because your GF found someone better.

You just don't have a clue, do you Gatlin.

First you ignorantly claim that libertarians are White Supremacists, now it's commies.

What next - calling libertarians "terrorists"?

Your obsession is no longer bordering on insanity - you've gone way past that point.

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 10:12:51   Reply   Private Reply

#11: BorisY    To: Gatlin (#9)

PlaneT realiTy

Is jusT an unknown moon

In Their universe

A false dichoTomy

Love
boris

BorisY posted on 2018-07-10 10:50:42   Reply   Private Reply

#12: nolu chan    To: Deckard, Gatlin (#1)

libertarians are not in favor of eliminating government altogether.

Do libertarians just want to cripple government? How badly do they want to cripple it short of eliminating it altogether?

nolu chan posted on 2018-07-10 10:59:18   Reply   Private Reply

#13: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#10)

First you ignorantly claim that libertarians are White Supremacists, now it's commies.

That’s a BOLFD FACE libertarian lie....I made NO such claim.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 13:26:46   Reply   Private Reply

#14: Liberator    To: Deckard, Gatlin (#10)

Your obsession is no longer bordering on insanity - you've gone way past that point.

Never was he "bordering on insanity" -- he leads the parade on a blood-red donkey.

Liberator posted on 2018-07-10 13:35:25   Reply   Private Reply

#15: Deckard    To: Gatlin (#13)

First you ignorantly claim that libertarians are White Supremacists, now it's commies.

That’s a BOLFD FACE libertarian lie....I made NO such claim.

Two of the articles you posted expressed that very same viewpoint.

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 13:36:25   Reply   Private Reply

#16: Deckard    To: nolu chan (#12)

Do libertarians just want to cripple government?

Nice try - how about LIMITING government? That used to be a conservative ideal as well - until the neo-cons took over.

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 13:38:32   Reply   Private Reply

#17: Liberator    To: nolu chan, Deckard (#12)

Do libertarians just want to cripple government?

How badly do they want to cripple it short of eliminating it altogether?

That's the question...

But because there are now several degrees of "Libertarian", we won't know until the smoke clears and a "leader" emerges.

I suspect THAT leadership may just have been co-opting "Libertarianism" only to have been far Left operatives all along. And then what??

Liberator posted on 2018-07-10 13:39:44   Reply   Private Reply

#18: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#15)

First you ignorantly claim that libertarians are White Supremacists, now it's commies. That’s a BOLFD FACE libertarian lie....I made NO such claim. Two of the articles you posted expressed that very same viewpoint.
Yes, two articles made that claim....I never did.

So, you did tell a BOLD FACE libertarian lie.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 14:16:40   Reply   Private Reply

#19: Deckard    To: Gatlin (#18)

Yes, two articles made that claim....I never did.

Yada, yada, yada.

You have never posted an article slamming libertarians that you don't agree with.

Deckard posted on 2018-07-10 14:17:40   Reply   Private Reply

#20: tpaine    To: Liberator, Y'ALL (#17)

I suspect THAT leadership may just have been co-opting "Libertarianism" only to have been far Left operatives by all along

I suspect THAT far Left operatives may just have been co-opting "Libertarianism" all along...

As we see by gatlins efforts here at ,LF....

tpaine posted on 2018-07-10 14:22:42   Reply   Private Reply

#21: tpaine    To: Deckard, y'all (#19)

To: Gatlin ,----- You have never posted an article slamming libertarians that you don't agree with

I doubt even Freud could tell us why gatlin is so obsessive. --- I first encountered this persona when he called himself 'harrowup', ---- who was pretty weird.

Now he's so far beyond weird, -- he needs professional help, and we should all pity him...

tpaine posted on 2018-07-10 14:48:32   Reply   Private Reply

#22: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#19)

You have never posted an article slamming libertarians that you don't agree with.
Pure speculation....you do a lot of that.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 15:03:58   Reply   Private Reply

#23: Gatlin    To: Everybody (#22)

CHURCH REPORTEDLY EVICTED FROM BUILDING AFTER POSTING ANTI-LGBTQ SIGN
It’s unclear whether a sign that said "LGBTQ is a hate crime against God. Repent," is what got the Remnant Fellowship Church in Auburn, Indiana forced out of their building, but the Church confirmed it was evicted from the area last week according to local online news source, wane.com.

The sign sparked outrage among members of the community after many people drove by the sign, according NewsChannel 15. The story included a statement from church elder Robert Sturges, who said, "We're trying to reach a certain group of people. They're being told in our culture that homosexuality, transvestites, lesbianism and sexual immorality is ok. But the Bible clearly says that those who practice these things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, it warns them that the wrath of God will abide upon them. And in the judgment, they will be lost and they will be sent to hell forever. We believe that. That's our faith."

Sturges also said he arranged the sign to mention the LGBTQ cimmunity as a reminder that the church would save people, in a ABC-affiliate WPTA21 report. When news of the sign hit social media, one woman went out and changed the sign to say “Stay open minded.” Reports from The Hill suggested the church also appeared to delete its Facebook page where it initially defended the sign.

The landlord of the building, representatives of the Remnant Fellowship Church, local members of the LGBTQ community and surrounding insititutions were unavailable for comment by deadline. The situation follows a week celebrating the LGBTQ community across the nation.

It is EXACTLY as I said:

“It’s unclear whether a sign that said "LGBTQ is a hate crime against God. Repent," is what got the Remnant Fellowship Church in Auburn, Indiana forced out of their building.”

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 15:17:30   Reply   Private Reply

#24: Gatlin    To: Deckard (#19)

You have never posted an article slamming libertarians that you don't agree with.
Pure speculation.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 15:38:42   Reply   Private Reply

#25: nolu chan    To: Gatlin, Deckard (#23)

It’s unclear whether a sign that said "LGBTQ is a hate crime against God. Repent," is what got the Remnant Fellowship Church in Auburn, Indiana forced out of their building, but the Church confirmed it was evicted from the area last week according to local online news source, wane.com.

WANE.com reported that the church had "vacated" the building. That does not support the implausible claim of an eviction for which there was insufficient time for the legal requirements.

https://www.wane.com/news/local-news/church-that-put-out-anti-lgbtq-sign-appears-to-have-vacated-building/1288132640

Church that put out anti-LGBTQ sign appears to have vacated building

By:
Lorraine Taylor
Posted: Jul 07, 2018 12:11 AM EDT
Updated: Jul 07, 2018 12:11 AM EDT

nolu chan posted on 2018-07-10 17:09:44   Reply   Private Reply

#26: nolu chan    To: Deckard (#16)

Nice try - how about LIMITING government? That used to be a conservative ideal as well - until the neo-cons took over.

That is a nice cop out. Limiting to a minimum degree, or to the degree that the onsite libertarian nutbags claim? Is it open borders, driving with no license, and a constitutional right to carry an M-16? Do you refer to limited government as per Rand Paul or as per the resident libertarians on this board, who prefer to label themselves libertarian rather than anarchist?

nolu chan posted on 2018-07-10 17:17:49   Reply   Private Reply

#27: CZ82    To: tpaine (#21)

I first encountered this persona when he called himself 'harrowup', ---- who was pretty weird.

Didn't he claim to be a Rear Admiral? And drive one of these around town:

CZ82 posted on 2018-07-10 17:34:11   Reply   Private Reply

#28: Gatlin    To: nolu chan (#25)

It’s unclear whether a sign that said "LGBTQ is a hate crime against God. Repent," is what got the Remnant Fellowship Church in Auburn, Indiana forced out of their building, but the Church confirmed it was evicted from the area last week according to local online news source, wane.com.
That the church has “vacated” the building still does not make it clear whether the sign is what caused the church to vacate the building. We should learn from later news reports if hat was the reason.
WANE.com reported that the church had "vacated" the building. That does not support the implausible claim of an eviction for which there was insufficient time for the legal requirements.
Of course it don not. And neither does it not support the plausible claim there might have been another legal reason as discussed in my previous post to you.

I believe tht is all I can say on this matter until I get more information. Please let me know if, or when, you have additional news. Thank you.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-10 19:47:23   Reply   Private Reply

#29: nolu chan    To: Gatlin (#28)

That the church has “vacated” the building still does not make it clear whether the sign is what caused the church to vacate the building.

It can not be a legitimate source for the proposition that there was a forcible eviction. The time frame makes a legal eviction appear impossible. No court grant of an eviction has even been referenced.

nolu chan posted on 2018-07-11 01:10:23   Reply   Private Reply

#30: Tooconservative    To: CZ82 (#27)

Didn't he claim to be a Rear Admiral? And drive one of these around town:

Weren't there some goats involved?

Wasn't he the one who also claimed a job history as a canine sperm collector (used for AI)? It seemed like an unusual career choice but his detractors at LP started calling him the Dogjacker or something.

Tooconservative posted on 2018-07-11 03:39:01   Reply   Private Reply

#31: Gatlin    To: Tooconservative (#30)

Didn't he claim to be a Rear Admiral? And drive one of these around town:

Weren't there some goats involved?

Wasn't he the one who also claimed a job history as a canine sperm collector (used for AI)? It seemed like an unusual career choice but his detractors at LP started calling him the Dogjacker or something.

He made no claim to be a Rear Admiral. He was a retired US Navy medical doctor who accepted a Civil Service position as a forensic pathologist in DC after his retirement from the Navy. He stated his Civil Service pay grade was equivalent to that of a Rear Admiral when answering a question for someone who did not understand the Civil Service pay grades. So, some posters then began referring to him as “Admiral.”

Following his second retirement, from the Navy and Civil Service, he and his wife moved Wisconsin to take over her family’s farm. In a conversation he was having with a poster, he did mention he raised some goats on the farm. Some posters tried to use that as ridicule.

For the many years I knew harrowup (a screen name he chose because of his activity in the stock mark showing “arrow up”), dating back to Free Republic, I never remember him mentioning anything about “claiming a job history as a canine sperm collector, used for AI.” You may be correct about this, I just never read that. I never saw a post where he was referred to as “Dogjacker” although you may have. The only nickname I ever saw was “admiral.”

He was a private pilot and traveled extensively around the country in his own plane (I can’t recall the make and model but it was a six-seater) while living in Wisconsin. Many times for pleasure trips to Las Vegas, also to visit family and friends in the Texas panhandle. Not that this has anything to do with your questions, it is merely something I recalled while having some pleasant memories. He had to stop flying after he lost his right arm to cancer.

He died on his farm in Wisconsin after a long battle with cancer. I posted excerpts on LP from his final email to me, you may or may not recall that.

I trust this information has answered your questions.

Gatlin posted on 2018-07-11 06:15:57   Reply   Private Reply

#32: CZ82    To: Tooconservative (#30)

Weren't there some goats involved?

Wasn't he the one who also claimed a job history as a canine sperm collector (used for AI)? It seemed like an unusual career choice but his detractors at LP started calling him the Dogjacker or something.

There were all kinds of claims floating around about him some kind and some not so kind, that depended on if that person liked him or not.

One of the funnier ones was something about him and some others all going on vacations together on a gay party barge, I think that one was courtesy of Hondo IIRC.

CZ82 posted on 2018-07-11 07:11:25   Reply   Private Reply

#33: Tooconservative    To: CZ82 (#32)

One of the funnier ones was something about him and some others all going on vacations together on a gay party barge, I think that one was courtesy of Hondo IIRC.

That does sound familiar. Maybe it was someone else who was the Dogjacker.

Tooconservative posted on 2018-07-11 08:24:12   Reply   Private Reply

#34: Hondo68    To: Tooconservative, CZ82, tater, rear admiral harrowup, yukons love boat, Liberator (#33)

One of the funnier ones was something about him and some others all going on vacations together on a gay party barge, I think that one was courtesy of Hondo IIRC.

That does sound familiar. Maybe it was someone else who was the Dogjacker.

Tater and the Rear Admiral ended up as crew on yukon's love boat after following a "wrong link". Liberator dubbed them Gilligan & The Skipper, if I remember correctly.

The skipper was a retired naval research, forensic goat psychiatrist who ran a PETA ranch in Wisconsin, IIRC.

Impossible to say who was jacking who, with that bunch of pervs.

Hondo68 posted on 2018-07-11 10:37:28   Reply   Private Reply

#35: Tooconservative    To: hondo68 (#34)

Yeah that Love Boat stuff does sound familiar.

Tooconservative posted on 2018-07-11 11:17:48   Reply   Private Reply

#36: tpaine    To: Gatlin, Y'ALL (#31)

For the many years I knew harrowup (a screen name he chose because of his activity in the stock mark showing “arrow up”), dating back to Free Republic, ---

For the many years I too knew the weird persona that called himself harrowup --- on free republic... --- But he never (until now) explained that his screen name was chosen because of his activity in the stock mark showing “arrow up”...

This is a new invention by the same weird persona, --- who now styles himself as "gatlin"...

tpaine posted on 2018-07-11 16:17:42   Reply   Private Reply