And since he couldn’t get but ONE bill to sell a house passed in Congress, it’s ABSOLUTE PROOF of Ron Paul's long record of glorious failures in congress!!!

Ron Paul, Ron Paul, Ron Paul!

RP is living in your head, rent-free. LOL

If Ron couldn't ensure passage of many of his pro-American bills,

I would point out the stupidity of measuring the soundness of one's political ideology by the number of laws that he pushes through congress. If that's the standard, GI should probably be a cheerleading democrat.

You think heroin should be legal and cocaine.

While you "push" your claim upon me, you neglect the offense of government meddling in "morality." It is a very interesting balance act you wield so that you can claim, "government is good."

I would point out the stupidity of measuring the soundness of one's political ideology by the number of laws that he pushes through congress. If that's the standard, GI should probably be a cheerleading democrat.

He claims to be a cop. This means that the more laws are on the books, the more citations he can write and the more bucks he can milk off the government for doing nothing worthwhile in life. He needs justification for his mere existence.

... at this time in the exchange you really need to show that libertarians are not amoral ...

Actually, all the other idiots running the country have PROVEN their deceit about the nation. The idea of 21 TRILLION in federal debt [alone] proves the point.

instead of attempting to deflect Stone’s point and change the conversation over to government.

I didn't, A K A Stone performed the deed but you were high on the hookah obviously enamored with his post.

Deflection is a fallacious debating tactic you libertarians TRY to use far too often.

That is a rhetorical remarck and has no significance to anything.

And so the obsession continues.

Like a child who can't stop tossing cake at all the other kids at another kid's birthday party.

Old ACLU-Commie Authoritarians HATE any part or parcel of libertarianism. They are rigidly militaristic and inflexible in all ways. Thus, Gatlin is only comfortable as a fascist (who also dislikes Trump -- don't be fooled.)

It's cool that you're bringing so much attention libertarianism, even if in attempts to cast it in an unfavorable light. It's not going to go away, in spite of whatever direction the current political winds are blowing.

Yes, and isn't also odd that Gatlin has simultaneously been touting the ACLU, the hood ornament and legal-wing of MARXISM?? The ONLY way libertarianism (as intended by the Founders) will go away (as he wishes) will be via the rigid Dem-Commie authoritarianism Gatlin espouses through his fascist ACLU lens.

(As also discussed, libertarianism AT ITS LIMITS IS ANARCHY, and frankly just as dangerous as Gatlin's Commie-Authoritarianism. It should be noted that BOTH SIDES OF THIS SAME COIN OPPOSE DONALD TRUMP.)

That said, arguably ALL of our Founders favored a balance of libertarianism to some degree or another, which is the basis for our individual liberties and foundations of our Republic.

That's rich -- YOU mentioning Mao. Castro. The ACLU.

YOUR kind of Anarcho-"Libertarianism" can only result in utter chaos. And then the strong-arm OF a Castro, a Mao, a Stalin to usher in "ORDER".

If the Libertarians could not obtain any traction against a GOP ticket of McCain/Palin, it seems their moment passed some time ago.

They just don't get it; "Libertarianism" is woven in the fabric of Constitutionalism. (The conservative wing)

Amoral libertarians don't have much support. That is and was always my problem with libertarians. They equate moral things with immoral things. Do what thou wilt just like the satanic so called Bible.

Yup.

At its limits, "Libertarianism" = Total Anarchy. Moral (and otherwise) Laws unto themselves.

The best and most viable libertarian minded candidate, EVER, is Rand Paul... and the bulk of the rabid 6%, aka, RON PAULTARDS, turned your backs on Rand... because Rand doesn’t run on anarchy.

Absolutely RIGHT.

Gatlin gave you a big AMEN on that.

The Old Commie is just stroking for allies.

Frankly, I believe Gatlin is the type of rigid Major Burns-like AK-ing AH that GI saw over and over for 20 years at his dept...and despised their hypocrisy and select rigidity. JMO.

"Father" Major Burn is again at his fake pulpit, stealing the scripture he *thinks* will support his fake piety.

His YUGE Pope's Hat is dyed Castro-military green.

I infer from your response that you purport to be an enlightened Christian saint. That's wonderful...even though it seems you've yet to learn not to be so condescending toward others, but all things in time.

OUCH.

At its limits, "Libertarianism" = Total Anarchy. Moral (and otherwise) Laws unto themselves.

OK.

Take a lookie-loo at the GOP-DEM federal debt; ever consider that topic as ANARCHIST?

NAW, its just a cool 21,000,000,000,000 bucks, so it is under control and non-anarchist?

This antilibertarian obsession is akin to the antiTrump one. --- Both types should be pitied for their fanaticism.

You're HALF right.

The Libertarians who we've been witnessing running for office are far more supportive of ANARCHY. It is NOT the Founder's intent and the direct opposite side of the Authoritarian coin.

Take a lookie-loo at the GOP-DEM federal debt; ever consider that topic as ANARCHIST?

NAW, its just a cool 21,000,000,000 bucks, so it is under control and non-anarchist?

A whole different subject to address.

The Feral Deficit is the fault of printing-pre$$ SOCIALIST-Dems and GLOBALIST Pubbies -- neither who are Constititutionalist or America-Firsters.

And btw -- No pure Libertarian Gummint would ever be able to collect a penny for taxes.

At its limits, "Libertarianism" = Total Anarchy. Moral (and otherwise) Laws unto themselves.

A common misconception is that libertarians want to abolish government. But that is the anarchist, not libertarian philosophy. Libertarians recognize the need for government, but that it should be much smaller than it is today in the USA.

And btw -- No pure Libertarian Gummint would ever be able to collect a penny for taxes.

Given the philosophy of some libertarians, I could see that argument being made as a valid criticism of libertarianism. I myself disagree with one major plank of the L party having to do with open borders. I do understand the philosophical argument in favor of open borders, but in practice it falls short due to differing rules of alternate governments of foreign countries.

The fed gov got by almost exclusively on import duties for the first 100 years or so, if I'm not mistaken.

Humorously, I've speculated on the idea of a "citizenship exchange program" where if you want to emigrate to another country, all you need to do is find someone from that country that wants to come to the USA, and you trade citizenship and both move at the same time. It's a net zero gain in both residency and citizenship for both countries so neither government can claim to be adversely harmed. Sounds like it could be a good libertarian compromise!!

Differentiate the idea that "libertarians" caused the current government fiasco.

I just gave you an answer to what "caused the current government fiasco".

I also added that a Libertarian Gummint wouldn't have the will or inclination to collect necessary (YES, NECESSARY) taxes to run any gummint agencies for 300m people.

And btw -- Trump was ostensibly a THIRD PARTY who BEAT both the establishment Parties. IF you paid a whit of attention. It's why both Party leadership hate him. HULLO.

Libertarianism: Exactly what IS you "platform" should you actually win any election at all?

A common misconception is that libertarians want to abolish government. But that is the anarchist, not libertarian philosophy. Libertarians recognize the need for government, but that it should be much smaller than it is today in the USA.

I understand that concept...

The problem is that Libertarian activism is led by its extremist strain. *They* support a radical reduction in common sense laws while lacking solutions for contemporary problems.

We can certainly quibble over the definition of "Libertarian" and to what extent or size and scope of gummint a Libertarian-controlled machination would run things...

In my opinion the radical elements would win that day, which is fundamentally anarchist. Ideally it wouldn't be.

It is abundantly clear the ONLY thing that matters to libertarians is freedom.

Oh the irony...

MEANWHILE at the OTHER end of the spectrum is your uber-militaristic ANTI-FREEDOM strain of rigid Authoritarianism, supported by Castro, Mao, and the Stalinist-supported ACLU.

... a Libertarian Gummint wouldn't have the will or inclination to collect necessary (YES, NECESSARY) taxes to run any gummint agencies for 300m people.

Under current government regulations, you are correct. But why is a free and sovereign state giving away its own wealth to every other nation? It doesn't make any sense when coupled withe FACT, that the USA permits illegals over our sovereign borders by the MILLIONS, does it?

Nope, the US Government has gone MAD under the DEM/GOP largess.

If you are so happy, why do you want to "piss me off?"

Tater is a phony anarchist leading from the rear, like Luberator. They're hoping to incite some minor infractions of the "rules" so they can crack down on the dissidents with an iron fist.

Wannabe Tyrants gonna tyrant.

I myself disagree with one major plank of the L party having to do with open borders.

Right, and you must; Open Borders is anathema to sovereignty. But to radical Libertarian (who are now actually allying with Antifa and Commie elements), "freedom" at its extreme promotes exactly that kind of anarchy.

I do understand the philosophical argument in favor of open borders, but in practice it falls short due to differing rules of alternate governments of foreign countries.

At no level or degree can I understand any basic argument in favor of Open Borders in this day and age. (of *your* understanding, what would it be?)

The fed gov got by almost exclusively on import duties for the first 100 years or so, if I'm not mistaken.

Pretty much I believe...And at that, it seems law & order at most levels of gummint were maintained. Sure -- out west there were some problems with law enforcement, but gummint by and large was lean and mean.

Might we consider THE USA as pretty much "libertarian" but blended with Protestant ethics and morals? The formula worked and worked well. And THEN came Wilson's Feral Taxation and the backdoor confiscation of wealth (AND political POWER) by Internationalists. But I digress...

There IS something to be said about noting an America that was mostly self-moderating and self-policing to a great degree. That reason was found in the faith of a nation that still relied on common sense and virtue espoused in The Good Book. Even though we had a "Constitution" and laws on the books, citizenry wisdom and respect of and for personal, community, and national sovereignty was pretty much...expected.

Humorously, I've speculated on the idea of a "citizenship exchange program" where if you want to emigrate to another country, all you need to do is find someone from that country that wants to come to the USA, and you trade citizenship and both move at the same time. It's a net zero gain in both residency and citizenship for both countries so neither government can claim to be adversely harmed. Sounds like it could be a good libertarian compromise!!

Heh...like baseball team trades.

"Here's our poison. It can't kill you any more than yours." ;-)

(Imagine this kind of arrangement at the local level?)

I prefer the "Life Exchange" program where the "mutual trade compromise" is made by and with "Nature". How about the "net zero gain" of EXPORTING the criminally insane/Democrats in exchange with...say penguins at the South Pole?

The problem is that Libertarian activism is led by its extremist strain. *They* support a radical reduction in common sense laws while lacking solutions for contemporary problems.

Liberator, I always appreciate our ability to discuss issues amicably and constructive even if they often result in animosity with others. It speaks well for both of us!

Yes, the problem is that unlike the R & D platforms where the various planks are generally have little to no direct relation to one another (i.e. the R platform has both a strong military and is pro life), the Libertarian party is based on a philosophy where the various planks ARE much more related to one another. That relation is freedom. Everything is based on the concept that each person's circle of freedom should be expanded as much as possible, limited only when it begins to overlap another person's like circle of freedom. It's as simple as that.

In practice, yes, there are areas where the philosophy isn't workable, open borders being, IMO, one big one. Communal sharing of expenses, such as military defense & infrastructure is another. True libertarianism is NOT about getting a free ride, of course. The problem is only in how to fairly charge each member for a true cost of the benefit they receive. On roads, in theory, every road would be a toll road so everyone using a road would pay for its maintenance, while those not using it would not pay. Some libertarians argue that all taxation is theft, yet those same libertarians would not have any problem with toll roads to cover needed maintenance. It comes down to the semantics of the difference between a tax and a "use fee".

But why is a free and sovereign state giving away its own wealth to every other nation? It doesn't make any sense when coupled withe FACT, that the USA permits illegals over our sovereign borders by the MILLIONS, does it?

I agree, you agree, and tens of millions of common sense Americans agree with all that.

The Uni-Party Globalist Firsters hijacked BOTH parties, printed up a gazillion fiat dollars, gladly flung open the border to 40 million Illegals thru the Mexican border, THEN made you and I subsidize our own national suicide.

Donald Trump is trying the remediate this Uni-Party Establishment-created & maintained destruction and sabotage of our liberties, sovereignty and wealth. And because he IS, the Uni-Party Globalists and Deep State mobsters have been trying like mad to oust HIM as well as everyone associated with him.

Nope, the US Government has gone MAD under the DEM/GOP largess.

Agreed.

...freedom

Calvin Coolidge:

There is no substitute for a militant freedom. The only alternative is submission and slavery."

"There is no greater service we can render…than to maintain inviolate the freedom of our own citizens."

"There is no justification for public interference with purely private concerns."

"All liberty is individual liberty."

"The individual has rights…And the protection of rights is righteous."

Who knew that Silent Cal was a libertarian?

Tater is a phony anarchist leading from the rear, like Luberator.

Ok, you win 'Most Insane Post EVER' award.

Here's a cookie.

At no level or degree can I understand any basic argument in favor of Open Borders in this day and age. (of *your* understanding, what would it be?)

The philosophy is quite simple. Without freedom of movement, other freedoms are necessarily usurpable. I.e. if you can be forced to remain in your home, you lose your right to assemble & associate. You lose your ability to travel for work and other personal reasons. We NEED the ability to travel. In fact it's the sole punishment that jailtime actually yields for convicted criminals.

The argument in favor of open borders is simply an extension of that idea. If the government can't morally jail all citizens in homes or elsewhere, why should it have the moral right to jail them in their home country?

That's the argument. It's quite simple.

As I said, unlike the R & D parties which are a collection of independent planks that in an alternate universe could be freely interchanged with one another with no hypocrisy, the L party is based on a uniform philosophy. That is the appeal the party has for logical thinkers.

common sense

Well stated.

Liberator, I always appreciate our ability to discuss issues amicably and constructive even if they often result in animosity with others. It speaks well for both of us!

Thank you...appreciate it. The feeling is mutual.

...the Libertarian party is based on a philosophy where the various planks ARE much more related to one another. That relation is freedom.

Everything is based on the concept that each person's circle of freedom should be expanded as much as possible, limited only when it begins to overlap another person's like circle of freedom. It's as simple as that.

Thanks for your concise explanation and definition of the Libertarian Party philosophy. There's not a lot to oppose or disagree with in principle or intent there, is there?

A lot of libertarian philosophy is based on common sense respect of others -- i.e., personal privacy, liberties, movement, choice, sovereignty, etc. Those attributes were supported by most of our Founders, weren't they?

I'm repeating myself again, but where it goes off the rails and becomes fringe anarchy is when it speeds past its mid-range or moderate limits. Problem there: Who or what defines "moderate libertarianism"? I'm being rhetorical of course because we'll get a ton of definitive answers depending on the day or week. *I* know it when I see it, but how about the other 99 people?

Related: BECAUSE we have Open Border Anarchists, Authoritarians, Dem uber-Socialists and NWO Globalists all simultaneously attempting to shred common sense and Constitution apart, there's no instant solution BUT to strongly support Donald Trump for now. His policies are more libertarian-constitutional than anyone I can remember. Including Reagan.

As I see it? He is trying to hold our Founders' core together. Otherwise the entire thing implodes.

'Most Insane Post EVER' award.

Your plot to install ex-gov Crisco as the Donut King has been exposed, deal with it. ;)

Thanks for your concise explanation and definition of the Libertarian Party philosophy. There's not a lot to oppose or disagree with in principle or intent there, is there?

A lot of libertarian philosophy is based on common sense respect of others -- i.e., personal privacy, liberties, movement, choice, sovereignty, etc. Those attributes were supported by most of our Founders, weren't they?

I cannot understand how anyone would see the foundation of the USA being based on anything other than freedom. But it seems some here do.

I'm repeating myself again, but where it goes off the rails and becomes fringe anarchy is when it speeds past its mid-range or moderate limits. Problem there: Who or what defines "moderate libertarianism"? I'm being rhetorical of course because we'll get a ton of definitive answers depending on the day or week. *I* know it when I see it, but how about the other 99 people?

On the "expanding circle of freedom" description I gave, in spite of the concept being simple, there's always room for debate on what constitutes "overlapping". Permissable home improvements being one area. If I wanted to make my home into a 30 story high rise, would my neighbors have a just concern that their right in preserving their home value is being unjustly reduced due to my project?

Related: BECAUSE we have Open Border Anarchists, Authoritarians, Dem uber-Socialists and NWO Globalists all simultaneously attempting to shred common sense and Constitution apart, there's no instant solution BUT to strongly support Donald Trump for now. His policies are more libertarian-constitutional than anyone I can remember. Including Reagan.

I have always scored Trump with low marks on the civil rights side, believing he has personally never had to endure a loss of rights. Having money, he could always try to lawyer his way to obtain his wishes. It was one of the criticisms against him pre-election, bullying unwilling residents into selling homes for Trump's real estate development projects.

As I see it? He is trying to hold our Founders' core together. Otherwise the entire thing implodes.

He certainly has a strong patriotic core to him, obviously. We see that at multiple levels continuously.

To: hondo68 Let me tell you right now, up front; YOU are not a "Libertarian"; You are an ANARCHIST. Rand Paul? He wouldn't give you the time of day.

That's rich -- YOU mentioning Mao. Castro. The ACLU.

YOUR kind of Anarcho-"Libertarianism" can only result in utter chaos. And then the strong-arm OF a Castro, a Mao, a Stalin to usher in "ORDER".

Excellent post.

Good summary of Hondope

I cannot understand how anyone would see the foundation of the USA being based on anything other than freedom. But it seems some here do.

I know. Un-believable. What I find worrisome is people here (and out "there") who *should* know better. They're getting confused about our history, mankind's history, priorities...and how easily freedom slips away. Much of it as we know began on 9/12 before the ink from the un-read "Patriot Act" was dry, erasing many of our taken-for-granted liberties (as the border remained an inexplicable open floodgate.)

Today? It's a mano a mano situation now. Far more precarious than some are willing to admit...and even realize.

The Socialist-Left and Globalists Authoritarians are going gonzo, pulling out all the stops (given they own most of the airwaves). They are hammering people with lying narratives and policies that are counter-liberty, counter-common sense and counter-intuitive. And have you noticed how similar the streets of Frisco look to the street of Paris (along the Seine) recently? "Homeless" armies ready to leap into action and join "Operation Total Anarchy".

On the "expanding circle of freedom" description I gave, in spite of the concept being simple, there's always room for debate on what constitutes "overlapping". Permissable home improvements being one area. If I wanted to make my home into a 30 story high rise, would my neighbors have a just concern that their right in preserving their home value is being unjustly reduced due to my project?

Interesting example -- I realize it's purposely extreme. Your (Your "expanding circle of freedom" was/is btw a really good visual metric).

Common sense and mutual respect used to count heavily in many individual decisions. And then there grew community consensus (and their decisions). It all mostly worked well UNTIL legal SJW behemoths like the ACLU began swooping in with fleets of Leftist lawyers and overruling via technicality, obliterating the spirit of the law. This is still now THE case.

Most towns already have zoning ordinances for real estate example. And exceptions via variance of certain local boards. But I get the gist -- there must be room and accommodation for reasonable debate, fairness and personal freedom. Seems the larger gummint gets the more petty, over-officious and authoritarian things get -- especially targeting certain "traditional" select demos. Whether it's the 1A, 2A, 4A, 10A, etc.

We are getting squeezed of liberty by the Authoritarian-Left coin -- both now increasingly over-lapping into fascism as *their* respective sphere of influence increases. The uber-Left, Authoritarians and Anarchists are actually elitists, believing they have the "right" to re-define and infringe on the *rest* of OUR "Circle of Freedom".

The big problem: MSM have framed and promoted this view of an *earned* LARGER "more deserved" over-lapping circle of "freedom" of at the expense of others -- aka Whitey, conservatives, Christians, men, straights/normals, rural citizen/fly-over-country "in-sophisticates", etal. THIS is what the current CW2 is being fought over.

I have always scored Trump with low marks on the civil rights side, believing he has personally never had to endure a loss of rights. Having money, he could always try to lawyer his way to obtain his wishes. It was one of the criticisms against him pre-election, bullying unwilling residents into selling homes for Trump's real estate development projects.

I'd have assumed you may be right at one time of Trump's life. It's no secret he was raised in money, used to getting his way with few obstacles.

However in time it appears (to me anyway) that he's embraced a wisdom by observing and learning about fairness from those below his "class". He's also apparently learned to frown upon the unprincipled and ironically the "bullying" of the political and business class while having to deal with those who were his "peers".

I mean how far into Trump's past real estate transactions are we going to hang the man? How proportional is his "sin" compared to others (whose sins are not only NOT tallied but case UNTOLD. Frankly, if Trump's biggest most "heartless" real estate "sins" are the case of one old lady/man who refused to sell at far more than market-price near the Trump Towers....or a few contrasted with thousands of positive real estate transactions, well...I'M not convinced his "sins" in this regard are heinous to any degree of fair proportion.

Moreover, there ARE differences between coercion, leaning on someone in real estate dealings, and dealing fairly. IF Trump truly was "dirty" to any real degree, THAT story would have been exposed.

But if we were going there, I'd like to scrutinize the 0bama's shady real estate deals/arrangements, the Clintons, McConnells, the Bushes dealing (with the Arabs) to within 1% of Trump. (People have *died* in some of their respective cases, but I've droned on too long already.

So no, I don't believe in broad-brushing Donald Trump as the cold-blooded widow/tenant-bully he was portrayed as a matter of a political assassination.

IF the man were truly the cold-blood mercenary capitalist the LEFT and GOPe would like to hang on him, he'd have merely ignored running for President and NOT put up with tolerating the threats and smear of himself and his family. It would have been MUCH safer and easier to have just steam-rolled all his opponents, become an even bigger mega-billionaire, and continued kissing the azzes of the REAL bullies and fascists: The Political and Hollywood elite.

Instead Donald Trump cared enough about America to sacrifice all. He DOES indeed relate to Middle Class America and IS a Patriot. He is not that good or patient an actor to fake his sincerity, his love for freedom and the USCON. For what he's done and does I am grateful.

you neglect the offense of government meddling in "morality."

There you just proved my points. You don't want the government!ent to something because it is moral. Lok bud theft and murder are immoral and we legislate that. So quit giving me your squishy Luke warm libertarian cat shit.

Every day has become Halloween at this place. Who ARE some of these people?? It's the Twilight Zone. *They* don't even know what or who they are. Commies, Anarchists, self-anointed Authoritahs (D) slammin' the gavel from their kitchen table. Just as long as they can keep on whining over the unfair peanut gallery rules, or the MILLIONS of ill-trained, unprofessional cops who abuse their authoritah every minute of the day.

*now don't forget to spank your white-azz repeatedly for wearing a badge for 20 years cuz no steekin' cops or ordinances are needed to prevent Antifa and MS-13 from taking over living room couches and Tee-bee remotes. They will all just respect the law AND constitution. JUST BECAUSE.*