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Long, long ago, when I was a wee bright-eyed Pentecostal lass, I had a run-in with an anti-theist college professor. I wrote about it a few years ago, but I always intended to come back to that story because there was a part I hadnt mentioned at the time. You see, my evangelical peers had an instantand unanimousresponse to the situation when I told them about it. They wanted me to go talk to the ACLU. Does that shock you? Surprise you? It should. Ill tell you about it today. Today, Lord Snow Presides over another strange evolution in fundagelicalism. (Scott Granneman, CC-SA.) Set The Wayback Machine.As I said in that earlier post, it must have been 1988 or 1989. I was a freshman or sophomore, taking a class required for my major. And wow, the professor of this class did. Not. Like. Christians. At. ALL. I was Pentecostal, of course. Back then that made me a fundamentalist. I had a lot of friends in college, almost all of them evangelical. And we brooked no muddying of the terms! Theyd have been offended at the mere suggestion that they were fundamentalists. To them, that term meant dangerous extremism. By contrast and in similar fashion, Id have been offended at being called evangelical. To me, it indicated dangerous laxity. But we shared a deep passion for all things Christian. We got together often to pray, to talk about Christian stuff, and to argue about our different interpretations of this or that Bible verse. I lived in the dorms then, so often these get-togethers occurred in my dorm room or in the lounge downstairs. My memories of those evenings now seem golden-yellow with nostalgia, from the color of the lights and walls there. We shared our daily struggles and triumphs with each other. At the same time, we all tried not to fret whenever the others didnt agree with our arguments or interpretations. Always Be Ready.Naturally, when this professor got totally out of hand, I shared this concern with my group. The exact conversation is lost to my memory, but my complaint probably went like this: In every class, this guy insults Christians. He looks right at me when he does it, so he knows what hes doing. I cant even concentrateIm always just waiting for the next snide jab. Ugh! He thinks hes just so clever, but I feel attacked and singled out. Nobody likes it when he does this, but I dont know what to say to make him stop. I had no idea what to do. My stress was getting bad enough that I was considering just dropping the class. But I needed it for my major. What Im describing is, in essence, the plot of the first Gods Not Dead movie, right? But my friends didnt suggest a debate about Creationism. They had something else entirely in mind. Youre Now Entering the Twilight Zone.Every one of them, including my then-boyfriend Biff, suggested I contact the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). Yes. You heard me. This group is now one of the most-demonized groups in the entire country. Once fundamentalists merged with evangelicals, creating the foul, lumbering, drooling behemoth that is fundagelicalism, one of the first groups they set up as their tribal enemy was this group of lawyers who are dedicated to protecting peoples rights and liberties. It wasnt always like that though. In the late 1980s, the ACLU was considered a friend to Christians. By 2006, Christianity Today was running pleading op-eds trying to defend it. By 2015, someone was whining at the misleadingly-named Reason.com about how the ACLU was being totally meeeeeeeeeeean to bigoted Christians. Today, fundagelicals take it as a point of doctrine that the ACLU has it out for them specifically, and specifically that this crusade against them is happening jus fer bein Christian. The Culture-War Model of Christianity.Back in my college days, Christians enjoyed a position of uncontested dominance in popular culture. Nobody could even imagine a future in which Christians were anything but an effortless majority, much less no longer the arbiters of cultural mores. We had a great respect for higher education, though we still thought that the inspiration of the Holy Ghost could make up for it. We saw ourselves as the future leaders of our country. Even Ia womancould imagine a future as a professional in the sciences. And we certainly didnt see watchdog groups as anything but helpers to us. We were doing nothing wrong, and so we had nothing to fear from any such groups. Wow, a lot can happen in a few decades, right? Somewhere in those intervening decades, Christians began subscribing to a totally different narrative about the ACLU. Their stunning about-face didnt happen in a vacuum, of course. Those were also the years in which they began engaging in their cruelest, most extremist culture wars. The ACLU stood against their constant, nonstop attempts to hijack American law and culture, and so the ACLU became their most dreaded enemies. But fundagelicals dont think they changed at all. To them, the ACLU changed. Ive no doubt that their elders cant even remember a time when Christians thought anything on the topic but what they think now. But I do. Back When I Was Young.When my friends suggested this course of action, I felt unnerved. I wasnt hesitating because I dreaded the help of a tribal enemy. No, I was simply nervous about tangling with lawyers and court cases. It felt like a lot of trouble over something that might be able to be resolved in some other way. But even the older guys at my church thought it was a great idea. One of them, a genial deacon, was ready to make some phone calls. No, Brother Flowers, I told him. Please, not yet. Though the idea made me want to throw up from dread, I decided to talk to the professor first. And that proved to be all that was necessary. Unlike Dr. Radisson in the dumb Christian movie, this real instructor toned down his sniping, and I was able to continue taking the class with no further stress. I got a good grade in it, even.
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if he hadnt decided to play nice. Thankfully, I never had to find out. The Party of Leopards Eating Peoples Faces.Even more than that, though, I wonder who the first right-wing Christian was who went from HOORAY, the ACLU is helping to stop others from infringing on our rights! to Whoa, why is the ACLU now stopping us from doing what we want to do? I think there must have been a first Christian to make that observation, back then. But they werent quite self-aware enough to make that vital connection: that the ACLU that had once helped them and now opposed them was doing so because they were now the oppressors, not the ones in need of help against oppression. See, back then my tribe seemed like they had a faint understanding of why we needed the ACLU. America was a secular country, yes. But sometimes a legislative group might make a law that pushed against religious peoples rights. And sometimes someone in authority might get out of hand, like my professor had, and maybe that person wouldnt be reasonable when asked to stop. Thats why it was so vitally important that we had a legal watchdog group that was willing to step in between oppressed citizens and those figures of authority who had crossed boundaries. None of us specifically talked about it like that, but its how I sure as heck thought of the situation. The ACLU was our friendnot our enemy. It was part of that very necessary system of checks and balances upon powerwhere rubber met the roadwhere the buck stopped. No wonder right-wing Christians today hate this group. Theyre focused single-mindedly on power, and consequently arent real fans of obstacles to their overreach that they cant simply steamroll, trample, or ignore. Nor have they ever been fans of abiding by rules that everybody has to follow. When a group of people enjoy unwarranted perks and privileges for decades and centuries, losing even a little of them can feel an awful lot like persecution. Satans Army.Instead of seeing the ACLUs firm opposition to fundagelicals culture warring as maybe a sign that theyre overstepping boundaries, fundagelicals are instead seeing that opposition as a sign that Satans gotten into this onetime friends heart. One absolutely hysterical Catholic forum outright calls the ACLU Satans Army. The poster breathlessly talks about his suspicions that the leader of the ACLU isGASP!!! OMG!!!a militant gay, which appears to mean someone who absolutely wont put up with his bigotry. The posters main issue with the ACLU appears to be their campaigns against bigotry, in fact. Though he did get some pushback from some of the posters, most of them were totally on board with his shrill denunciation. They were so outraged about the ACLU that they couldnt think of a more serious accusation to fling at them than simply stating that they were directly affiliated with their religions worst boogeyman. (They were Catholic, not Protestant, but there isnt any difference between their respective ultra-conservative members anymore, really; theyve been merging ever since they teamed up for their cynically-manufactured culture war against abortion.) This bizarre hate hard-on for the ACLU is about par for the course for Christians since I left the religion and it went full-throttle extremist. If anything, Christians have only grown more extreme in their hatred and vitriol year by year. And as with everything in that end of the religion, theres a reason why this is happening. Another Example of Extremism in Far-Right Christianity.Often these Christians dont even have any idea what the ACLU is or what it doeslike this pastor, who thinks the ACLU is Marxist. He doesnt appear to have the faintest idea why the lawsuits he names happened, but bless his little cotton socks, that isnt stopping him from making some wild speculations. But he does dimly senseas do his bunkmates in their tent of wackadoodlerythat the ACLU stands between him and his tribes goal of domination. That opposition is what makes the ACLU evil, to extremist Christians. Of course, when we remember that they define evil as, largely, anybody who opposes them in their grab for power, the picture comes into sharper focus. Their leaders egg them on in this hatred, and neither they nor their followers actually look for themselves to see that why yes, the ACLU has steadfastly and constantly defended Christians religious rights. And I could have been one of the Christians they defended, in the late 1980s, back when I was a bright-eyed, true-blue little Pentecostal lass. Oh, but that was back before fundagelicals saw the ACLU as the enemy, and back before theyd made themselves the enemy of rights and liberties. Now, years after leaving the religion, I look at a Christians opinion about the ACLU as a barometer that tells me what kind of person they are. If theyre aware of the ACLUs function and necessity in a secular country with robust protections for individuals liberties and are completely on board with that idea, then theyre probably all right. Probably. If they freak out about demons and get frothy-mouthed about their weirdly-defined, self-serving version of religious liberty, then I know to avoid that person. So I suppose their war against the ACLU has accomplished somethingfor us at least. |
Poster Comment:
Repeating the closing remark in the commentary: Now, years after leaving the religion, I look at a Christians opinion about the ACLU as a barometer that tells me what kind of person they are. If theyre aware of the ACLUs function and necessity in a secular country with robust protections for individuals liberties and are completely on board with that idea, then theyre probably all right. Probably. If they freak out about demons and get frothy-mouthed about their weirdly-defined, self-serving version of religious liberty, then I know to avoid that person. So I suppose their war against the ACLU has accomplished somethingfor us at least.As I read the last sentence, I visualized old frothy-mouthed Liberator freaking out at the demon ACLU while he read my Post #9, Post #4, and Post #17 ... shaking head ... |

#1: buckeroo To: Gatlin (#0)
buckeroo posted on 2018-06-30 09:04:52 Reply Private Reply
#2: Gatlin To: buckeroo (#1)
You made it blatantly obvious that you lost your love for America when you deserted America and moved out of our beloved great nation.
You have no creditability to say anything about America or how America feels....you no longer live here.
God Bless America....and long live our wonderful President Donald Trump.
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 09:26:02 Reply Private Reply
#3: Liberator To: buckeroo, Gatlin (#1)
+100. And NOTHING BUT.
No real American supports the subversive policies of the ACLU and its close fascist-Commie cousin, the SPLC.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 11:20:55 Reply Private Reply
#4: Liberator To: Gatlin, buckeroo (#2)
You of ALL people cannot be serious.
You're a Police Statist FIRST, Obedient To Your CO (whomever, WHATEVER it is) SECOND, and "American" and In Name Only, THIRD.
....you no longer live here.
So you're saying Mexican Invaders that DO "live here" are MORE "American" than a patriot who merely resides elsewhere?
I know a LOT of Americans who've served but who now live in Costa Rica. You gonna tell THEM they're "discredited" as Americans with "no love" for the USA?
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 11:27:04 Reply Private Reply
#5: Gatlin To: Liberator (#4)
It is YOU who is saying that I said that....when I never did.
So what? No, I am not gonna TELL them anything of the sort.How long have you had your problem of making false perceptions? Your suggestive accusations are a complete and total work of fiction, so they are really of no interest to me.
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 12:06:00 Reply Private Reply
#6: Liberator To: Gatlin, Fred Mertz, Buckeroo (#5)
Ok, maybe the order is wrong. If I had boxed that, I'd still have won the Trifecta.
No!
It is YOU who is saying that I said that....when I never did.
I'm only connecting the dots from what you DID say.
In your response to Bucky, you've based your presumption of his "love for America" and "credibility" solely on his current *residence*.
If THAT is your opinion, wouldn't that mean that you, Gatlin, regards domestic enemies and illegal invaders who reside *within* US borders as "loving" America MORE than expats?
Not only that, you, Gatlin, also strongly stated that any opinion on America by Bucky (and apparently any other expats) is invalid OR lacking "credibility".
Still standing by your accusatory statements?
How long have you had your problem of making false perceptions?
Your own words are "perceptions"? Nice spin. (Oh wait -- it was lame.)
Your suggestive accusations are a complete and total work of fiction, so they are really of no interest to me.
YOU, Gatlin, stated Bucky as NOT loving America. You also claimed any opinion of his is "discredited".
It is crystal clear exactly who made up "accusations" and fictionalized presumptions: Gatlin.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 12:44:59 Reply Private Reply
#7: Gatlin To: Liberator (#3)
I dont know if you consider the folks on the list below to be real Americans, but it would be a logical conclusion that based on what the ACLU did for these CONSERVATIVE Americans, that they probably do fully support the ACLU on certain causes.
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 12:49:41 Reply Private Reply
#8: A K A Stone To: Gatlin (#7)
A K A Stone posted on 2018-06-30 12:55:27 Reply Private Reply
#9: Gatlin To: Liberator (#3)
You are essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering verifiable facts. Please document and validate your allegation by naming all members of the ACLU who are communists. IOW put up or shut up.
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 13:05:10 Reply Private Reply
#10: Liberator To: Gatlin (#7)
You actually mean to say: "It is the "right" of elites and Statists to rule over the lowly citizenry as ALL policy, law, and especially agenda are ours alone to make."
"Power" is not actually the issue here, but then Statists always seem to parse life through the lens of "power" and subjugation. AND prioritizing "power" over everything else, don't they?
What IS important is the power for REAL Americans to voice their/our opinion as a matter of PRINCIPLE. This Republic was founded NOT ON the whims of self-anointed overlords, so-called Elites and Statist soldiers who attempt to usurp the power of We The People.
....and essence of American *consensus* IS.
You can wear out your knee pads and drool over the anti-America, anti-Christian, anti-soverignty fascist-Communist policies all you want -- it doesn't change THE truth:
The ACLU is a subversive, reptilian organization that has been undermining and sabotaging America from within.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 13:07:06 Reply Private Reply
#11: Liberator To: A K A Stone (#8)
Ooops.
Notice the parsing of the word, "defending"; The ACLU *never* went to court to sue on behalf of any "conservative" or conservative org. They merely go on record half-heartedly as a stunt. "Publicly having their back" = BS.
The ACLU reminds me of what the Soviets did ONLY once the US dropped their nukes on Japan; They "declared war" on Japan. IOW, phony displays of support.
The ACLU actually "defended" NONE of those entities Gatlin mentioned in a court of law. Thus, his list is just "FAKE-DEFENSE".
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 13:15:17 Reply Private Reply
#12: Gatlin To: A K A Stone (#8)
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 13:27:13 Reply Private Reply
#13: buckeroo To: Gatlin (#12)
You are so slow-w-w-w that you have to correct your own posts. How did you ever land a job in the USAF as a tater peeler for 20 years?
buckeroo posted on 2018-06-30 13:30:58 Reply Private Reply
#14: Liberator To: Gatlin, A K A Stone (#12)
From what? Defending the ACLU so HARD?
Can't wait for your stanch defense of the SPLC and Rosenstein.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 13:42:12 Reply Private Reply
#15: Liberator To: Gatlin (#12)
Wow. The ACLU "axed" the court not to do something?
Chyeah -- nothing like WORDS tossed out there by a red ACLU carrier pigeon as a "defense" of ANYTHING. I'm sure Ollie North was relieved.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 13:45:50 Reply Private Reply
#16: Liberator To: buckeroo (#13)
I don't even want to imagine *that* process.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 13:46:50 Reply Private Reply
#17: Liberator To: Gatlin, Buckeroo (#6)
Are you still standing by your above accusatory statements made to Bucky regarding his "love" of America AND degree of "credibility" based on his expat status?
And simple YES or NO will suffice.
Thanks.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 13:49:42 Reply Private Reply
#18: Gatlin To: Liberator, A K A Stone (#11)
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 13:55:49 Reply Private Reply
#19: Gatlin To: buckeroo, Liberator (#16)
It was with superior intellect and extremely warm personal charm.
I enlisted at the age of 17 years and rose up through 12 ranks in 10 pay grades going from Private to Tech Sergeant and then Second Lieutenant to Major.
TootTootToot ... Thanks for asking.
You really need to imagine that process, for imagining and dreaming about the possibility of you ever being able to have done the same is probably all you could ever do.Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 14:10:51 Reply Private Reply
#20: Gatlin To: Liberator (#17)
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 14:17:59 Reply Private Reply
#21: Gatlin To: Liberator (#15)
Furthermore, your sarcasm to mask your ignorance was an abject failure.
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 14:26:07 Reply Private Reply
#22: Gatlin To: Liberator, A K A Stone (#14)
I try to cover ground as quickly as I can when dealing with a totally ignorant person, one who is unknowledgeable, uneducated and uninformed.
Another false presumption by you. I see no reason or way that will ever happen.Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 14:37:29 Reply Private Reply
#23: Gatlin To: buckeroo (#13)
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 14:41:57 Reply Private Reply
#24: Gatlin To: Liberator (#10)
That is true. But is is MORE important that they do not voice their opinion on FALSE PREMISES like you have been dong....actually lying....and try to browbeat others into agreeing with you. No, I would use the word CONTROL. Statists advocate for a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs. And if that is the system they desire, then they have the ABSOLUTE right to advocate for it. I would never advocate for SUBSTANTIAL centralized control, although I see that limited controls over social and economic affairs are necessary in a society. What a profound ridiculously ignorant statement to make. Of course it was not. I really dont understand what you are TRYING to say here. But consensus in the wrong word to use when you are tying it to your statement on how the Rebpulic was founded. Not doing that....never have done that....never intend todo that! You keep making these charges and you NEVER show any proof of them. I am still waiting for you to list all the communists you say are in the ACLU. Why havent you already done that?So, what you said is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion. I resect that and I was prepared for 24 years to give my life for tjhat freedom. Since you obviously feel so strongly about that opinion, you should have absolutely no trouble elucidating for me as to what caused you to form that strong opinion by relating specifics and and not generalities. I would like to hear your reason(s).
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 15:46:57 Reply Private Reply
#25: Gatlin To: Liberator (#6)
Now, how about listing the communists you say fill the ACLU?
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 16:50:55 Reply Private Reply
#26: Liberator To: Gatlin (#25)
Ok, I laughed. HARD.
I think we're about done here, Major Comrade.
Liberator posted on 2018-06-30 17:13:02 Reply Private Reply
#27: Deckard To: Liberator (#6)
...llegal invaders who reside *within* US borders...
On that topic - did you happen to catch any of the pro-illegal immigration protests earlier today?
Now they are calling for ICE to be disbanded.
Deckard posted on 2018-06-30 18:01:01 Reply Private Reply
#28: Gatlin To: Liberator (#26)
I went into my library and looked up the title of a book. I refreshed myself on the contents while there. The study is titled Flustered and faithful: embarrassment as a signal of prosociality.
There is a section that described what you apparently was undergoing when you had a HARD laugh. It was an Embarrassed Laugh evidently brought on by the fact that you could in no way document your contention that the ACLU is filled with communist and the fact that I proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ACLU did indeed DEFEND many conservatives in court cases, starting with Ollie North.
I can understand how you feel that way. I know that I have been consistently tough on you after I drilled into you, my factual points time after time. But I had no desire to inflict any pain and I do apologize for your hurt feelings.BTW. as I said to you before....your attempt at sarcastic humor leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, you really should give it up so you will not continue to make a fool of yourself. Just sayin ...
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 21:11:11 Reply Private Reply
#29: Gatlin To: Deckard (#27)
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 21:28:13 Reply Private Reply
#30: Hondo68 To: Gatlin, Koch Bros ACLU libertarian (#28)
Hondo68 posted on 2018-06-30 21:28:23 Reply Private Reply
#31: Gatlin To: hondo68 (#30)
The government fucks them every day.
Gatlin posted on 2018-06-30 21:49:42 Reply Private Reply
#32: Liberator To: Gatlin (#28)
Don't try and play psychiatrist. It only serves to reinforce your own insecurities and impotency as a debater, a patriot, an honest broker.
It was an Embarrassed Laugh evidently brought on by the fact that you could in no way document your contention that the ACLU is filled with communist and the fact that I proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ACLU did indeed DEFEND many conservatives in court.
That kind of "hard laugh" is one of incredulity, of contempt, of that which hits an "11" on the 1-10 scale of stupidity.
I don't make it a practice to "debate" an opponent whose perception of reality is far beyond the scope of the "normal" range, scraping the "INSANE" Zone.
If you took a poll of conservatives on their opinion BASED ON ACTUAL REALITY, 95% of conservatives would concur with the notion that the ACLU is IN FACT a Communist Organization.
IF the ACLU just happened to have supported any conservative in ANY case, the chances Conservatives by and large recognize such cases to be highly questionable at best, motives conspicuous, and likely self-serving. The ACLU only takes cases in which the Leftist/Commie cause will be buttressed and supported for their OWN future cases and causes.
Liberator posted on 2018-07-01 18:37:51 Reply Private Reply