The Bible is historically ACCURATE. Whether "hand-me-down" oral history, written on scrap papyrus, or through Moses who spoke directly to God or the prophets who also spoke to God, or transcribed His thoughts TO them on our behalf.

That's what I believe. I also believe Hebrew was the oldest language.

I also think there were written records that go far further back than 1000 years BC.

Oldest before Qumran discoveries. The article even says that. There's no telling if Nash is a Torah fragment or a teaching document as commanded in Deuteronomy 6:8. Nash could just be that a Torah teaching document like we see in the deutercanonical works like Ben Sira.

Yeah, I thought I kinda covered that. Unless you have something else in mind.

The Bible is historically ACCURATE. Whether "hand-me-down" oral history, written on scrap papyrus, or through Moses who spoke directly to God or the prophets who also spoke to God, or transcribed His thoughts TO them on our behalf.

Which Bible are you referring to? There are a lot of them, with major and minor variations, so please be ACCURATE, yourself. In fact, there are as many Christian churches as variations of the Bible ... with some Christian churches renouncing some Bibles "as the seeds of the Devil."

Q: If you believe in God as you state, it isn't because you've been "mind-controlled" to any degree. Or is it? What are the qualities of this universe, this life and our human existence that compel you to possess any faith at all?

When observing the world around myself, I question the entire experience process. Some entity created all of the Universe; that being is unknowable. I call that being the creator.

Which Bible are you referring to? There are a lot of them, with major and minor variations, so please be ACCURATE, yourself. In fact, there are as many Christian churches as variations of the Bible ... with some Christian churches renouncing some Bibles "as the seeds of the Devil."

I have always believed in any faith that saw Jesus as the son of God.

I have attended many Christian churches. I see no churches (legitimate) that saw any Christian as a seed of the devil.

I see no churches (legitimate) that saw any Christian as a seed of the devil.

So you bring up a valid point. What is a "legitimate" church?

What is a "legitimate" church?

The Koine Greek for church is ekklesia. It literally means “a called-out assembly or congregation.” The church is the people and not a building or organization.

This is a fundamental problem with any organized religion. It is all dogma and when I suggest this, it is not limited to any religion anywhere. This is the reason for continuous conflict, for example: Islam vs. Christianity.

So give me an example of a "legitimate" vs. an "illegitimate" church. Who makes such a determination?

A legitimate church would be one that accepts God's word as found in the Bible as truth. An example of an illegitimate church would be one who claims to follow God's word as found in the Bible, but they ignore scriptures. Don't trust it as truth. Or they add thing's to try and make an excuse for something they don't have faith in. An example of an illegitimate church would be Methodists as they pretend to marry faggots.

This is a fundamental problem with any organized religion.

The organized religion quote. Liberals and commies like saying they are against organized religion. The alternative is unorganized religion which is chaos. There is never any truth because it is chaotic and everyone says they have truth, except it contradicts what someone else thinks is true. So that is just chaotic tickling your ear to feel good.

Liberals and commies like saying they are against organized religion.

I am neither a "liberal or a commie" and I abhor organized religion. So, you will have to redefine your statement.

The alternative is unorganized religion which is chaos.

Why is that a problem?

"You will know them by their fruits"

+100

Which Bible are you referring to?

Let's just go with the King James Version for the moment.

When observing the world around myself, I question the entire experience process. Some entity created all of the Universe; that being is unknowable. I call that being the creator.

Thanks for answering the questions, honestly.

"You will know them by their fruits"

Is that why there are so many Christian denominations? Is it because there are "so many fruits?"

Let's just go with the King James Version for the moment.

So, I purchased a variation of the Bible called, "Modern English Version" a few years ago which attempts to use contemporary English as a way of describing the scripture based on King James Version. My wife took the Bible to the local minister for evaluation and he said, "it was of the Devil."

How did he get that authority? My wife wanted a book burning party which I did not permit.

So, I purchased a variation of the Bible called, "Modern English Version" a few years ago which attempts to use contemporary English as a way of describing the scripture based on King James Version. My wife took the Bible to the local minister for evaluation and he said, "it was of the Devil."

How did he get that authority?

There are many Bibles that attempt to "modernize" the language of Olde English" KJV.

The problem with many of these "modern" translations or interpretations -- crucial meanings are lost, changed, and lest I say it -- subverted.

FWIW, I myself use both the KJV as well as the New King James Version -- with help from supplemental King James Bible Study manuals and Commentary, matching up key verses.

Buck, I did a quick check up on the "Modern English Version" -- at this particular website link, they seem to concur with your wife's Minister (you are blessed to have a wife who seeks the truth from the Word.) They compare and contrast some verse examples, gauging interpretational changes in meaning that do matter. (I haven't time to examine it at the moment; Perhaps Red can also weigh in on this issue.)

http://www.jesusisprecious.org/bible/mev/satanic_counterfeit.htm

How did he [the Minister] get that authority?

His discernment of authority comes from The Holy Spirit which will NOT compromise on The Word of God.

His discernment of authority comes from The Holy Spirit which will NOT compromise on The Word of God.

Isn't that act "non-objective?" Isn't it called "revelation?"

Is that why there are so many Christian denominations? Is it because there are "so many fruits?"

One can never erase human conceptions. Even the Bible goes into discussions of this. If a church genuinely believes in Jesus Christ and promotes the good will that Christ proposed, I can accept it.

buckeroo: Is that why there are so many Christian denominations? Is it because there are "so many fruits?"

no gnu taxes: One can never erase human conceptions. Even the Bible goes into discussions of this. If a church genuinely believes in Jesus Christ and promotes the good will that Christ proposed, I can accept it.

You didn't answer any my questions with any capability of direct information or discussion. You glossed over my questions as though I am a student of yours awaiting a paddle board for not adhering to your dogma, which I am not.

I will give you one more try: Is that why there are so many Christian denominations? Is it because there are "so many fruits?"

Answer the question in a direct way.

By their fruits you'll know them. As in if they follow the actual teachings. You'll have to discern that yourself.

I did answer your question in a direct way. People will have differences in the details about how Christianity should be practiced, but that doesn't change what Christianity is.

Sure it does. According to Liberator, the Holy Ghost ensures an appropriate interpretation of the Word of God.

How? There are what, 500+ Christian faiths all practicing different rites & rituals across the planet with variations of "God's Word?"

You'll have to discern that yourself.

How? Through a local snake handler that claims to have the power of the Lord or by adhering to Tammy Faye that claims the same dialogue?

The core belief remains the same.

The core belief remains the same.

From Christian dogma, irrespective of the religious sects, and when we strip away rites and traditions exactly what is it? Where is the discernment to learn or understand what that core belief is all about? Moreover, I need to understand the reasons for even learning about all this stuff.

You see the light or sumthin?

From Christian dogma, irrespective of the religious sects, and when we strip away rites and traditions exactly what is it?

the belief that Christ is the the son of God and defines what is right, and that the holy spirit guides us about this.

the belief that Christ is the the son of God and defines what is right, and that the holy spirit guides us about this.

Most of the world doesn't adhere do your definition of what is "right." In fact, Judaism abhors your idea. Also, Islam does, as well. Including Christianity and the hundreds of variations, thereof, these three major religions form the Abraham religious followers composed of BILLIONS of followers would reject your opinion in a heartbeat.

Within internal Christian concepts and denominations varying about standards of THEIR interpretations has little to do with me. Your opinion is subjective and there is NO objective evidence at all.

As a modern version of KJV, it's not bad at all. I can't imagine how anyone calls it "of the Devil".

The Elizabethan English of the KJV is not for everyone. And reading the Bible in stilted English from hundreds of years ago does not contribute to understanding what you are reading.

Buck, I did a quick check up on the "Modern English Version" -- at this particular website link, they seem to concur with your wife's Minister (you are blessed to have a wife who seeks the truth from the Word.) They compare and contrast some verse examples, gauging interpretational changes in meaning that do matter. (I haven't time to examine it at the moment; Perhaps Red can also weigh in on this issue.)

http://www.jesusisprecious.org/bible/mev/satanic_counterfeit.htm

I inspected that page and consider it over the top. They spend a lot of time complaining about the nuances of copyright law (which apply even more to copyrights being renewed for versions like NIV and others than to the MEV).

MEV was only complete in 2013. So they don't need to worry much about renewing a copyright to create a new derivative copyright to protect their profits for some years yet. Again, NIV and other big publishers routinely make rather shocking revisions to their current versions just to keep getting new derivative copyrights issued.

As to the samples of text comparisons between KJV and MEV, their complaints seem pretty minor if that is the extent of how much the MEV has wandered, ever so slightly, away from the KJV's intended meanings.

buckeroo, don't dump your MEV. It's fine. So are a handful of other similar modern KJV paraphrases that are similar to it. Nothing seriously wrong with any of them even if you can find a verse or two to quibble over. The vast majority of text renderings are accurate enough.

The path is straight and narrow, not crooked and wide.

In fact, Judaism abhors your idea.

Really, since when? Most don't even really practice Judaism. Most are are just secularists who call themselves Jews. OTOH, Christians accept and embrace Jews with the hope they will come to Christ.

Islam does, as well.

They hate everybody. And they are not shy about showing it.

... don't dump your MEV. It's fine. So are a handful of other similar modern KJV paraphrases that are similar to it. Nothing seriously wrong with any of them even if you can find a verse or two to quibble over. The vast majority of text renderings are accurate enough.

Thanks TC.

I need to finish that earlier post concerning the preacher suggesting ... "it [MEV] was of the Devil." A few weeks later, I reached for the MEV and notice the cover was completely changed. Instead, I have this book called, START!:

buckeroo: In fact, Judaism abhors your idea [following Christ]

no gnu taxes: Really, since when? Most don't even really practice Judaism. Most are are just secularists who call themselves Jews. OTOH, Christians accept and embrace Jews with the hope they will come to Christ.

You need help, no gnu taxes ... here is a recommendation: get off the Internet and go to a local chapter of the AA. What a STUPID comment you posted.

I need to finish that earlier post concerning the preacher suggesting ... "it [MEV] was of the Devil." A few weeks later, I reached for the MEV and notice the cover was completely changed. Instead, I have this book called, START!:

You should tell your wife to return your bible. Remind her that stealing bibles is not a godly activity even if you prefer to see someone reading a version you like better.

The START! bible is a plain-jane NKJV (New King James Version). Some churches buy these for $6-$8 for pew bibles. Don't be fooled by the name of it though or its implied claim to be a modernized KVJ because it is far from it. This is not a bible that was translated according to the translation principles of the KJV translators and it was not translated from the Masoretic Text in the Old Testament and using Textus Receptus Greek translations in the New Testament.

It relies for scholarship on the Alexandrian manuscripts, primarily Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. Not on the Textus Receptus which we know were used from an early period throughout the Roman empire and faithfully preserved by the Eastern Orthodox (who never modernize anything and seem to think the very idea is suspect).

It is too late for me to act on your recommendation as I have a new version. My wife's minister is Greg Laurie, the guy who is shown in the video, just above. This world is often very weird; if you catch my drift, about salespeople.

I'd say you were better off with the MEV. Certainly, I would take that one over an NKJV. The funny thing is that, while the NKJV does take liberties with certain phrases in various passages, when you get down to those old verses that the lifelong bible students quote from memory, the NKJV copies the exact phrasing of the KJV. Even if those phrases contradict what is found in their preferred translation from the Alexandrian texts. They know people want those KJV text renderings and so they just use them so they can "KJV up" their Alexandrian Trojan horse bible.

An interesting little fact is that the KJV actually echoed the commonly used phrases of key verses according to the older Bishops Bible and the Geneva Bible and was not completely faithful to their manuscript sources either, just as I am complaining that NKJV did it. Kind humorous but I can't say that it changes the entire meaning of the bible. We're mostly quibbling over some very minor changes overall. But in some verses, you do see differences, like calling Jesus "the servant of God" instead of calling him "the Son of God". That's a very big difference.

This guy Laurie is just a successful evangelical preacher of no particular scholarly ability. He helped write the study notes of the START! NKJV bible and a few other similar bibles as well.

BTW, buck, you could produce the Buckeroo Bible the same way. Contact the NKJV publishers (Nelson, I think) and get a quote for how much they will charge you to license their NKJV text from them. Then you just download the text from them, insert notes and comments wherever you like, upload it to a publisher like Amazon for publishing small quantities of books. You could probably produce nice bibles of your own for under $40 in a decent binding. Maybe under $25.

Think of it: The King Buckeroo Authorized Version. KBAV. It would be epic.

And it isn't just the NKJV that is a bible-for-rent. NIV and others will do the same. OTOH, the KJV was protected only by royal patent and it has never been enforced even in England so you could produce your own Buckeroo KJV bible and no one could say a word about it legally.

Liberator: FWIW, I myself use both the KJV as well as the New King James Version -- with help from supplemental King James Bible Study manuals and Commentary, matching up key verses.

Those bibles do not use the same manuscripts to translate from, even if NKJV uses phrasing to try to fool people about what they've done.

And what does your website that posts against the MEV have to say about the NKJV? They hate it much more than they hate the MEV.

JesusIsPrecious: Beware: The New King James Bible is Translated From the Corrupted Alexandrian Manuscripts!, 2014, updated 2016

Think of it: The King Buckeroo Authorized Version. KBAV. It would be epic.

Thanks. But I already have a TJ Bible. I don't need any competition. [and my wife knows about it.]

According to the preface of the NKJV, the NKJV uses the 1967/1977 Stuttgart edition of the Biblia Hebraica for the Old Testament, with frequent comparisons made to the Ben Hayyim edition of the Mikraot Gedolot published by Bomberg in 1524–25, which was used for the King James Version. Both the Old Testament text of the NKJV and that of the KJV come from the ben Chayyim text. However, the 1967/1977 Stuttgart edition of the Biblia Hebraica used by the NKJV uses an earlier manuscript (the Leningrad Manuscript B19a) than that of the KJV.

The New King James Version also uses the Textus Receptus ("Received Text") for the New Testament, just as the original King James Version had used. As explained in the preface, notes in the center column acknowledge variations from Novum Testamentum Graece (designated NU after Nestle-Aland and United Bible Societies) and the Majority Text (designated M).

The TR is used for the NT but there are footnotes where the NU or M (Majority Text) are not in agreement or omitted.

The Majority Text (M) is a variant of the Byzantine text. Interesting the Eastern Orthodox used the M text for years for their English speaking and reading churches. There is only one Bible out there (if you don't count Greek interlinear version) and it is a non copywrite version called the World English Bible (WEB). I've used it for quotes at other sites which are kind of skiddish on using quotes from the copyrighted Bibles online.

World English Bible

The EOs used this version as a base for their 2013 Orthodox New Testament in English. However, heavily introduced their Patriarchal Text of 1904. As English translations go for the NT this one is clearly the most Byzantine of them all. TR had gaps or very few manuscripts to work off of for the KJV.

The Eastern Greek Orthodox New Testament: Based on the Official Text of the Greek Orthodox Church is not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible which is just another NKJV rip off (legally of course) with a few subtle insults in the footnotes about the TR.

This is the cover of the Patriarchal edition:

Site:

EOB NT

As you can see I had to use Wikipedia to get a good explanation. None of the Orthodox sites have info. Amazon sells it. I guess the Orthodox are lousy at Bible sales like us Protestant snake handlers. If you go to Orthodox blogs it seems their faithful don't even know this NT version exists. Loads of compliments though for the EOB Study Bible which as mentioned is just the NKJV with some fancy icons on the cover.

Well I have a copy and when Pentecostals start arguing over English words I break out the lexicon and this Bible for NT passages.

There are literal word for word Bibles, and easier to read (flow of the text) type Bibles. Concept for concept as opposed to word for word.

You can look at various versions and compare side by side by using Biblegateway.com

When I first went through the Bible I used an easy to read version. Today that version is called the New Living Translation. I use this version for family Bible Study.

The two approaches to Bible translations are formal equivalence and dynamic equivalence.

There are different translation methodologies for how to best render the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into English. Some Bible versions translate as literally (word-for-word) as possible, commonly known as formal equivalence. Some Bible versions translate less literally, in more of a thought-for-thought method, commonly known as dynamic equivalence. All of the different English Bible versions are at different points of the formal equivalence vs. dynamic equivalence spectrum. The New American Standard Bible and the King James Version would be to the far end of the formal equivalence side, while paraphrases such as The Living Bible and The Message would be to the far end of the dynamic equivalence side.

The advantage of formal equivalence is that it minimizes the translator inserting his/her own interpretations into the passages. The disadvantage of formal equivalence is that it often produces a translation so woodenly literal that it is not easily readable/understandable. The advantage of dynamic equivalence is that it usually produces a more readable/understandable Bible version. The disadvantage of dynamic equivalence is that it sometimes results in “this is what I think it means” instead of “this is what it says.” Neither method is right or wrong. The best Bible version is likely produced through a balance of the two methodologies.

Within the two categories there are variations. For example some dynamic equivalence versions are paraphrasing entire passages.

More detailed explanation here:

Bible Translations

It has been estimated that up to 70 per cent of Jews in Israel are "secular Jews", which is generally understood to mean that they do not practice Judaism.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_Jews_do_not_practice_Judaism

Almost 40 years ago, when I started working in the Jewish community as a 19 year-old college sophomore, I could never have imagined that Christians, with whom I was surrounded growing up, would support Israel with the same passion that I have supported Israel since I was a teenager. I would never have imagined speaking at Christian events to honor Israel, traveling to Israel with Christians or learning that there are “Christian Zionists”.

So, when I first encountered Christians who loved Israel and the Jewish people, I was taken aback until the conversation began. Then and now, they said to me we love Israel and the Jewish people because in the first book of the Bible, it says:

I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

https://blog.chron.com/aroundthejewishworld/2012/07/why-do-christians-support-israel-2/

I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

https://blog.chron.com/aroundthejewishworld/2012/07/why-do-christians-support-israel-2/

Yes indeed, all nations have been blessed through the Jews when Jesus Christ came, as He said:

"You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you - I am he.”

The TR is used for the NT but there are footnotes where the NU or M (Majority Text) are not in agreement or omitted.

If they prefer the Alexandrian text type, then stick with it.

Why promote the Alexandrian text type constantly via all the footnotes if you don't believe it is superior?

As for sales of modern EO bibles in English, I think you might miss the point. The EO priests and most knowledgable laypersons will resort to reading the accepted Greek text themselves. They won't just run to English translation the way the rest of us do. This would be as odd as some Roman Catholics disputing Thomas of Aquinas or other Scholastics without reading the Latin version of their writings.

The textual variants of all these various manuscripts really is too large a topic to sort through on some chat board.

Do you really think most people who call themselves Jews actually practice Judaism?

No. However there are several major variations of Judaism similar to Christianity.

It has been estimated that up to 70 per cent of Jews in Israel are "secular Jews", which is generally understood to mean that they do not practice Judaism.

Similar to Christianity but not so much as Islam.

The EO priests and most knowledgable laypersons will resort to reading the accepted Greek text themselves. They won't just run to English translation the way the rest of us do.

The priests perhaps. The laity may memorize the liturgy or portions of it in the Greek but a far cry from fluency to read other texts not memorized. People spend years in schools to become fluent in Greek.

People spend years in schools to become fluent in Greek.

My only exposure to Greeks in America is in Greek restaurants (where Greek was spoken openly and where the owner and wait staff were obviously Greek as were many customers) or to seeing Greek-Americans in other public settings.

I was surprised how many of them spoke Greek at the drop of a hat. Or as their preferred language for conversation with other Greeks.

Your experience with Grecian-Americans (to paraphrase Dumbya) may be different from mine. But we can't pretend there are the same cultural and language barriers for Greek-Americans to read the NT in Greek as there are for non-Greek Christians. Greeks may, for instance, be more inclined to cultivate some knowledge of ancient Greek to preserve their heritage, whether Greek Orthodox or just the Homeric classics or the Greek philosophers. It is quite a cultural heritage for Greeks, one not easily matched by any other people whose descendants have survived into the modern era.

the Jewish community

This one...

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) rights in Israel are the most advanced in the Middle East, and one of the most advanced in Asia.[1] Although same-sex sexual activity was legalized in 1988, the former law against sodomy had not been enforced since a court decision of 1963.[2]
en.wikipedia.org/w iki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel

?

HEY!If it's good for the US,it should be good for Israel too,right?

Your experience with Grecian-Americans (to paraphrase Dumbya) may be different from mine. But we can't pretend there are the same cultural and language barriers for Greek-Americans to read the NT in Greek as there are for non-Greek Christians. Greeks may, for instance, be more inclined to cultivate some knowledge of ancient Greek to preserve their heritage, whether Greek Orthodox or just the Homeric classics or the Greek philosophers. It is quite a cultural heritage for Greeks, one not easily matched by any other people whose descendants have survived into the modern era.

Same experience. Grew up in metropolitan NY area. Greek diners on each corner and I worked for a Greek businessman and his family while in HS and college.

Most Eastern Orthodox churches in the US today are populated by mainly English speakers. I'm sure they learn specific liturgy in either Russian, Greek or Latvian or others, but this is not fluency. Much like Roman Catholics used to recite the mass pre Vat2 in Latin did not make them fluent in Latin or able to comprehend the Latin Vulgate.

Considering in the USA Eastern Orthodox churches are taking on American converts from all national origins, having a Bible in English approved by the EO church makes sense. Not all of their converts are Hank the Bible answer man who knows Koine Greek.

,I think Israel should be pressured to adopt an AA plan for Muslim immigrants.

They seem to like to forget/pretend they're not the only Semites on the peninsula.

================
Sem·ite
noun plural noun: Semites
a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs.