In my years as a priest and of sharing the Gospel, I have heard many reasons offered for not becoming a Christian: scandals associated with clergy, the wealth of the Church, the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. etc. I thought I had more or less heard it all, and so was unprepared for a reason one young man offered to justify his rejection of Orthodoxy—namely, that dinosaurs were not in the Bible. I blinked a few times, and was left temporarily speechless (something of a rarity with me, to which those who know me well can attest). His idea was that since dinosaurs obviously existed (their skeletons adorn our museums), then if the Bible was God’s Word, he should be able to read about dinosaurs in the Bible. Since he could not find them there (I refrained from mentioning certain fundamentalist interpretations of Leviathan and Behemoth in the Book of Job), then obviously the Bible could not be God’s Word and he could not remain Orthodox. He was referring of course to the old supposed conflict between Science and Religion, and in this arm-wrestling match, it was clear to him that Science had won. No Biblical dinosaurs, no more church-going.
So, what’s the deal about dinosaurs? Why aren’t they in the creation stories in Genesis? Apart from the absurdity of supposing they’re not there because they aren’t mentioned by name (the duck-billed platypus isn’t mentioned by name either), it’s a valid question, and one that leads us headlong into the question of how to interpret the early chapters of Genesis.
Interpretation of the creation stories too often degenerates into an argument between the theory of evolution vs. what is sometimes called “creation science”. By “evolution” the average non-scientific person means the notion that Man descended from the apes, or from a common ancestor of apes and men. The name “Darwin” is usually thrown about, regardless of how the ideas in his On the Origin of Species have fared in the scientific community since Darwin wrote it in 1859, and most people’s knowledge of evolution is confined to looking at the famous evolutionary chart in National Geographic, showing how smaller hominids kept walking until they became human beings like us. By “creation science” is meant the view that the Genesis stories are to be taken as scientifically or historically factual, so that the earth (often considered to be comparatively young) was created by God in six twenty-four hour days. Since the time of the “Scopes monkey trial”, the argument between “evolutionists” and “creationists” has been going strong, and is often fought in the nation’s courts and departments of education. Arm-wrestling indeed.
Happily for people with weak arms like myself, the Church does not call us to take part in this arm-wrestling match. The creation stories in Genesis were not written, I suggest, to give us a blow-by-blow account of how we got here. Rather, they were written to reveal something fundamental about the God of Israel and the privileged status of the people who worshipped Him. We assume today that the ancients wanted to know how we got here, and how we were created. In fact, they were mostly uninterested in such cosmic questions, and the creation myths that existed in the ancient near east spoke to other issues. Most people back then, if they thought of the question of cosmic origins at all, assumed that the world had always existed, and the various gods they worshipped were simply part of that eternal backdrop. That is where the creation stories were truly revolutionary. Their main point was not merely that God created the world; it was that the tribal God of the Jewish people was sovereign over the world.
We take monotheism for granted, and spell “god” with a capital “G”. For us, God is singular and unique by definition. It was otherwise in the ancient near east. That age was populated by different gods, each with his or her own power, agenda, and career. And this is the point: in the Genesis stories, none of these gods are there. In the opening verses we read, “In the beginning God (Hebrew Elohim, a Jewish name for their God) created the heavens and the earth” and “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven.” The creating deity is called “Elohim” and “Yahweh”—the names for the Jewish God. Other rival deities are simply not there. It is as if they do not exist. They had been dethroned and demoted by their omission from the story. The opening verse of Genesis is a salvo fired into the world of polytheism, a ringing declaration that their gods were nobodies.
We keep reading and discover that this Jewish God made everything that existed by His simple word of command. He simply said, “Light—exist!” (two words in the original Hebrew), and light sprang into existence. In the creation myths of the pagan cultures of that time, the gods created by lots of huffing and puffing (in an Old Babylonian myth, the god Enlil uses a hoe), but not so the God of the Jews. He is above all that. For Him, a simple sovereign word suffices. In fact, in the first chapter of Genesis, all the cosmos was brought into being by Him uttering ten simple commands (yep, it does foreshadow the Ten Commandments, given later).
And Man is portrayed in these stories as the sum and crown of creation, giving the human person a dignity never before known. Man is said to have been made “in the image of God”—a revolutionary statement, since in those days, only kings were thought to be in the divine image. Despite this, Genesis invests the common man with this royal dignity. And even more: it says that woman shares this image and rule with him. In the ancient near east, women were chattel; in Genesis, she is a co-ruler of creation with the man.
The stories of Genesis cannot be read apart from their original cultural context, and when we read them as they were meant to be read, we see that the creation story was a gauntlet thrown down before the prevailing culture of its time. The creation stories affirmed that the Jewish God, the tribal deity of a small and internationally unimportant people, alone made the whole cosmos. That meant that He was able to protect His People. It meant that, properly speaking, all the pagan nations should abandon their old gods and worship Him. These stories affirm that the Jewish God is powerful enough to have created everything by a few simple orders. They affirm that Man is not the mere tool and slave of the gods, whose job it is to feed the deities and care for their temples. Rather, Man is a co-ruler with God, His own image and viceroy on earth. And Woman is not a thing to be sold, inferior to Man. Rather, she shares Man’s calling and dignity.
These are the real lessons of Genesis. It has nothing to say, for or against, the theory of evolution. Its true lessons are located elsewhere.
So what about dinosaurs? I happily leave them in the museums, to the makers of movies (I love “Jurassic Park”), and the writers of National Geographic. The creation stories of Genesis give me lots to ponder and to live up to without multiplying mysteries. As Mark Twain once said, “It ain’t those parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me; it’s the parts I do understand.”
#124: Tooconservative To: buckeroo, no gnu taxes, Liberator, A Pole, redleghunter (#115)
The oldest fragment we have of Hebrew scripture is the Nash Papyrus. It dates to around 100 BC to 150 BC, or so we're told.
Some (but not all) of the papyrus' substitutions from Deuteronomy are also found in the version of Exodus in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Pentateuch from the 3rd-2nd centuries BC, made in Alexandria. The Septuagint also interpolates before Deuteronomy 6:4 the preamble to the Shema found in the papyrus, and the Septuagint also agrees with a couple of the other variant readings where the papyrus departs from the standard Hebrew Masoretic text. The ordering of the later commandments in the papyrus (Adultery-Murder-Steal, rather than Murder-Adultery-Steal) is also that found in most texts of the Septuagint.
The papyrus preamble before Shema Yisrael, also found in the Septuagint, is taken from Deuteronomy Ch. 4:45 which is the only time the recurring formula “This is the commandment(s) and rules and teachings...” mentions the Exodus from Egypt. The Nash preamble correctly cites Moses as the speaker rather than God as in the Septuagint. The insertion of Deuteronomy Ch.4:45 before Shema Ysrael in the papyrus and especially the Septuagint, which has two preambles in the same section: Ch. 6:1 and the interpolation to Ch. 6:3, was probably done to distance the central Shema Yisrael prayer from it context: sections dealing with the entry to the Promised Land of Canaan.
According to the Talmud it was once customary to read the Ten Commandments before saying the Shema. As Burkitt put it, "it is therefore reasonable to conjecture that this Papyrus contains the daily worship of a pious Egyptian Jew, who lived before the custom came to an end".[2] It is thus believed that the papyrus probably consisted of a liturgical document, specifically the constituents of a Phylactery,[1] which may have purposely synthesised the two versions of the Commandments, rather than directly from Scripture. However, the papyrus' similarities with the Septuagint, support a possibility that a Hebrew text of the Pentateuch was in circulation in Egypt in the 2nd century BC, and served both the Nash papyrus and the Septuagint translation as source, but which differs significantly from the modern Jewish Masoretic Text.
So the Nash papyrus throws rocks at everyone's modern ideas about the era. It doesn't agree with the Masoretic text of the Torah (dating from 900 AD and the official Hebrew of Israel). It doesn't agree with the (offically unauthorized) Greek translation of the Torah called the Septuagint, circa 300 BC. And it mixes together phrasing of the Ten Commandments from both Exodus and Deuteronomy but differs from both of them.
Well, that's a fine mess. I included the long quote from Wiki to indicate the limits of what we know or can know at present about many manuscripts and tablets from this era. There was a lot of stuff floating around and, obviously, much of it was not officially approved translations. These text variant could be the result of being part of a mezuzah or a liturgical text, not an officially approved copy of the Torah (by Temple standards).
This is a good site by a Jewish scholar of high standing in Israel on these ancient texts.
TheTorah.com: The Oldest Known Copy Of The Decalogue
If we want to look for older examples of what we call Hebrew, there are just a few. The oldest is dated to around 1000 BC and is a pottery fragment.
One thing that is pretty annoying with this stuff is the wide variety of names given to these ancient dialects. Here's some that I can recall: proto-Hebrew, paleo-Hebrew, Old Hebrew, proto-Canaanite, proto-Samaritan, proto-Masoretic, proto-Phoenician, Early Alphabetic and at least as many others I can't recall or never heard of. Quite often, the type of alphabet used and the style of writing (elongated traditional type or the little square Babylonian text type) indicates what flavor of proto-whatever it is considered to be or the spellings of individual words indicate their dating and relation to other ancient texts. This is a technical area that only the experts understand at all. And they constantly argue over all their research and results.
Wiki: Khirbet Qeiyafa inscription
Dating to 1000 BC, this is a faded portion of text on a clay tablet. It is in the most ancient known Judaean city.
BiblicalArchaeology.org: Qeiyafa Ostracon Relates the Birth of the Kingdom of Israel
Do not oppress, and serve God…despoiled him/her The judge and the widow wept; he had the power Over the resident alien and the child, he eliminated them together The men and chiefs/officers have established a king He marked 60 [?] servants among the communities/habitations/generation.According to Puech, this translation of the Qeiyafa Ostracon “contained all of the essential” components of the Biblical tale on the transition from Judges to the selection of Saul as the leader of a new Kingdom of Israel.
In the Bible, Samuel’s sons do not follow his moral ways, and the elders ask Samuel to appoint a king to lead Israel. Despite his initial resistance to the idea, Samuel is guided to Saul, whom he appoints as the first monarch of the Kingdom of Israel. If one follows Puech’s translation, the text from Khirbet Qeiyafa is the first artifact to reference Israel’s first king. Gerard Leval gives a list of narrative parallels between the Qeiyafa Ostracon the Biblical text on Saul: the need for judges who will not oppress the foreigner and those less fortunate; the need for those who will protect them from annihilation; the installation of a king; the existence of servants who serve the king; the injunction not to oppress but to serve God; most importantly, the designation of a new monarch.
The excavators at Khirbet Qeiyafa identify the site with Biblical Shaarayim. After David slays Goliath, the Israelites pursue the Philistines “on the way to Shaarayim” (1 Samuel 17:52). According to the Bible, Shaarayim must have existed during Saul’s reign, and finds from Khirbet Qeiyafa corroborate the chronology.
Gerard Leval writes “for Puech, the text announces the installation of a centralized royal administration and it makes this announcement to a distant frontier province. He concedes that it is difficult to establish with certainty whether the new royal administration is that of Saul or David… most likely, the ostracon refers to Saul’s accession.” The inscription focuses on the transition from the period of the judges to the monarchy rather than from one king to another.
If Puech is correct, the Qeiyafa Ostracon is the only known artifact to reference the first king of the Kingdom of Israel. Its tone suggests that it refers to a recentl event, making it stand out as the oldest account of Saul and the formation of the Kingdom of Israel.
Tooconservative posted on 2018-02-16 17:07:41 Reply Private Reply
#125: Tooconservative To: A Pole (#121)
I hadn't even noticed that you were tutoring us. So I don't know why you think anyone would pay you. You've really posted very little since you started this thread. We've somehow managed to keep it going despite your lack of interest.
Tooconservative posted on 2018-02-16 17:14:19 Reply Private Reply
#126: Tooconservative To: Liberator (#123)
To get paid by A Pole, you probably have to submit an itemized bill of services rendered.
Tooconservative posted on 2018-02-16 17:16:04 Reply Private Reply
#127: Liberator To: buckeroo (#122)
Life and finding sustenance was probably much easier before the Great Flood.
Afterward, likely a best a challenge; at worst a struggle, but do-able. We ALL struggle to certain degrees.
As to "Miracles," yes, some have received them and still do. (Don't ask me how God adjudicates this, but yes prayer is involved.)
In a sense, yes as these faerie tales gave hope to those dealing with the day to day struggle of life.
Ok, I get it.
Look -- no one is forcing their view and beliefs. Yes, someone like me will share my faith (and it IS faith, but yes, a faith in God and His promises that must be fed like any plant or person.) People of faith also struggle, sometimes mightily. Very few don't.
The very same consumption of the Word and Promises from God has been passed down for thousand of years, BEFORE the written word as you'd noted could only be the case. Oral traditional handed down generation by generation helped inspire all people. Without the circuses, distractions and narcissism of modern man.
Ever read Proverbs? (Wisdom) Ecclesiastes? (reminder that life without God is mostly fulfilling and empty) Psalms? (Praise AND complaints to God) Song of Solomon? (In praise of married love)
Best "Self-Help" books in wisdom and advice on living ever written.
Buck, it's all there for the taking. All the answers you'll ever need. All you have to do is ask God to help you turn just the first page.
This Mortal Coil/Bio-Shell has an Expiration Date as you know. Yes, we all struggle. This is the thing -- we are all ultimately responsible for the destination of our respective soul. It survives our bio-shell/flesh.
Q: Would you rather live every one of your days and 90 years on this earth as an absolute and joyous King? But at the same time...being unsure of your Final Destination? (perhaps passing on to a dark or silent Eternity)...
OR...
Q2: Endure both good and bad times during your time here on earth; Struggle in many ways. BUT...invest in the key to a life beyond our bio-shell, and KNOW your reservation for Eternity is set and will be bathed in light and love.
Only you control your own steering wheel, direction and place you wind up. Once it's over IT'S OVER.
Liberator posted on 2018-02-16 17:16:16 Reply Private Reply
#128: Liberator To: Tooconservative (#124)
One has to be flabbergasted that so much ancient scriptural text has and had been preserved -- enough so to survive throughout the centuries of war, climate, confiscation, and...TIME.
Talk about miracles.
If God has NOT wanted what *was* preserved preserved it simply would not.
So that is a nice little sample of what we know about the oldest examples of Hebrew and OT scripture. And it indicates how tentative our knowledge is. It is clear that we cannot draw strong conclusions from such evidence. The entire field of higher textual criticism in ancient texts has this problem. A lot of it is just highly educated guesswork, a working explanation until someone digs up something more comprehensive.
That's a trip. Imagine the rush for a biblical archaeologist of discovering this? Then translating the text?
At this point, I'm not sure if further survival of newly found text even matters. From an archaeological point, anything more is just a bonus.
Related to that, my speculation about the giant skeleton findings is that they are being hidden because there are those who may fear having to explain them as well as tangents that just won't increase faith, but instead undermine it.
Sufficient OT and NT texts survived -- more than enough to understand OT underpinnings of history and wisdom, the Patriarchs, more than enough to understand a continuum in the NT, the Gospels as written -- along with Romans and Revelation etc.
New discoveries are always exciting. IF real and not a hoax -- which is what I would fear.
Liberator posted on 2018-02-16 17:40:22 Reply Private Reply
#129: Liberator To: Tooconservative, A Pole (#125)
Heh...
Which is why I'd assumed that maybe he just forgot a sarcasm tag...OR, maybe WE don't grasp his sense of humor.
He's like the server who brings the mints and check, and claims credit for preparing the meal.
Ok Pole -- you got us!
Liberator posted on 2018-02-16 17:44:03 Reply Private Reply
#130: Liberator To: Tooconservative, A Pole (#126)
I'd like to see HIS invoice...
Liberator posted on 2018-02-16 17:45:19 Reply Private Reply
#131: A K A Stone To: buckeroo (#122)
A K A Stone posted on 2018-02-16 17:57:31 Reply Private Reply
#132: buckeroo To: A K A Stone (#131)
I have told you before that I am a Deist, assuming you understand. I am probably closer to the founders of the USA than you will ever be.
Let me put it bluntly: the creator left everything to human folly after the Beginning of time. He doesn't meddle at all and there is no indication that he ever will.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 18:28:17 Reply Private Reply
#133: buckeroo To: Liberator, Tooconservative (#128)
You need to understand that ancient manuscripts undergo intense processes for deciphering far beyond a slap on the back based on a chit-chat channel. I is through "codecs" which are used to maintain a method of consistent interpretation of the manuscripts which are often small pieces or fragments of documents.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are some of the best interpreted documents ever found and lead to some of the more advanced "codecs" which have been used for other documents.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 18:45:03 Reply Private Reply
#134: A K A Stone To: buckeroo (#132)
A K A Stone posted on 2018-02-16 19:09:03 Reply Private Reply
#135: buckeroo To: A K A Stone (#134)
We have no church in the natural world around ourselves other than what our senses transmit to our reason which is tempered by education. It is self evident. Don't you rely on your own senses to determine your own reason for survival? Or do you go to a church and beg to be forgiven because you feel powerless about your own circumstances whether real or imagined?
There's a lot to consider about survival and I have yet to see anyone SURVIVE based on someone's prayers or belief in a Holy Book.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 19:25:10 Reply Private Reply
#136: Biff Tannen To: Tooconservative (#85)
Yes, quite like a Mel Brooks nonsense comedy. Funnier than hell and some well deserved jabs at the church.
Of course, those with a stick up there ass will miss all that.
Biff Tannen posted on 2018-02-16 21:30:47 Reply Private Reply
#137: A K A Stone To: buckeroo (#135)
Well you couldn't see George Washington but you obviously think he was a liar.
A K A Stone posted on 2018-02-16 21:41:28 Reply Private Reply
#138: A K A Stone To: Biff Tannen (#136)
A K A Stone posted on 2018-02-16 21:42:24 Reply Private Reply
#139: buckeroo To: A K A Stone (#137)
Why do you say I am a liar?
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 21:47:41 Reply Private Reply
#140: buckeroo To: A K A Stone (#137)
Deists were not liars or not now.
There is an important separation of any religious doctrine from everyday experience that Deist's often choose. As an example: are you aware that Thomas Jefferson created the Jefferson Bible? Are you aware that George Washington created the first national day of "Thanksgiving" not for some ceremonial issue to eat a turkey and some savory goodies on the side but to ensure that REVOLUTIONS don't occur again?
Just a few, of course. As I write, I wonder about your understanding of Thomas Paine's, "Common Sense"? Have you ever read any of these documents? Have you ever looked for any outside material beyond your Sunday School Pulpit of HELLFIRE & DAMNATION?
I am just asking, of course.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 22:44:40 Reply Private Reply
#141: GarySpFC To: buckeroo (#139)
Deism was far different at that time, than what we see today. As an example, they beloved the Lord controlled nature. Today Deism is similar to atheism.
GarySpFC posted on 2018-02-16 22:52:05 Reply Private Reply
#142: buckeroo To: GarySpFC (#141)
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 23:01:42 Reply Private Reply
#143: GarySpFC To: buckeroo (#142)
GarySpFC posted on 2018-02-16 23:09:43 Reply Private Reply
#144: buckeroo To: GarySpFC (#143)
I suggest otherwise and always have. There is a creator. He is unknowable and immediately following the creation of TIME, the creator has never intervened in anything, especially in human affairs.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 23:21:23 Reply Private Reply
#145: GarySpFC To: buckeroo (#144)
And YOUR evidence for an unknowable God is what?
GarySpFC posted on 2018-02-16 23:27:03 Reply Private Reply
#146: buckeroo To: GarySpFC (#145)
Actually you have my perspective back-asswards. I say organized religions are contemptuous instruments towards mankind, no matter their affiliation.
You can't find any other than through our senses an being planted here to include the creator's intervention in any human endeavour through thousands of years of human history beyond hearsay, innuendo, gossip and hand-me-down information from dogmatic approaches of mesmerizing mind control.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-16 23:36:03 Reply Private Reply
#147: Tooconservative To: GarySpFC, redleghunter (#141)
I recall pinging you recently to red's thread on that first-century fragment of Mark a month or so back but Vic kinda hijacked that one into weird topics. Supposedly, we may finally see a final assessment of the fragment from mummy wrappings this year. I hope so.
Tooconservative posted on 2018-02-17 01:13:46 Reply Private Reply
#148: GarySpFC To: buckeroo (#146)
GarySpFC posted on 2018-02-17 05:14:18 Reply Private Reply
#149: buckeroo To: GarySpFC (#148)
This is an age old issue between those of a establishment culture and those espousing religious doctrine. Both are dogmatic and unprincipled to the core. Their diametrically opposed goals are conflict for some sort of "upsmanship" value beyond mere survival where most of us are positioned in life.
There are some understatements in Buckley's quote. For me and those around me, I want no part of a government that is controlled by religious or any other institutions; this includes a political party called the GOP/DEM Party. The continuous and unnecessary circus act reveals an inefficient and certainly an ineffective system.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-17 11:50:20 Reply Private Reply
#150: Liberator To: GarySpFC (#141)
Liberator posted on 2018-02-17 12:13:57 Reply Private Reply
#151: Liberator To: GarySpFC (#141)
Pretty spot-on on both counts.
Although I would also add that today's "Deist" appears to straddle the fence more as more "Agnostic."
Liberator posted on 2018-02-17 12:17:21 Reply Private Reply
#152: Liberator To: buckeroo, GarySpFC (#142)
Now hold on thar, Baba-Looey...
You've leaped into a few fires here.
1) The crux of Christianity -- a simple belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- requires NO "organized religion."
2) Without "Ideals" you have NO basis of morality or standard of "Good" vs Evil." Are you saying YOU possess no "ideals"?
3) As Pilate asked Jesus Christ, I'd ask you: "What is THE 'Truth'"?)
Liberator posted on 2018-02-17 12:23:43 Reply Private Reply
#153: Liberator To: GarySpFC, buckeroo (#143)
Excellent examples that demonstrate Purpose and Reason of a personal Creator-God vs. Random Chance of a Chemical-Reaction "god".
I do not believe however that Buck has committed to an "Atheism." He's just anti-organize religion, which admittedly has NOT helped many develop their faith.
Liberator posted on 2018-02-17 12:29:30 Reply Private Reply
#154: sneakypete To: GarySpFC (#141)
It's good to "see" you.
sneakypete posted on 2018-02-17 12:41:21 Reply Private Reply
#155: redleghunter To: Tooconservative (#124)
Oldest before Qumran discoveries. The article even says that. There's no telling if Nash is a Torah fragment or a teaching document as commanded in Deuteronomy 6:8. Nash could just be that a Torah teaching document like we see in the deutercanonical works like Ben Sira.
What's interesting is we still don't have the Qumran discoveries fully analyzed and examined.
I'm currently in a discussion on another site on the book of Daniel which Qumran caves 1-4 sheds a bit more light on:
DSS shed new light
What's interesting is the discovery provides evidence Daniel was in fact considered canonical in the 2nd century BC. It also provides evidence of wider circulation which evokes a call for an earlier date of the autograph than what 19th and 20th century scholars previously determined.
Lastly the Qumran Daniel fragments follow the later Masoretic Text (MT) and does not contain the apocryphal chapters seen in the Greek.
redleghunter posted on 2018-02-17 12:43:15 Reply Private Reply
#156: redleghunter To: GarySpFc (#155)
redleghunter posted on 2018-02-17 12:46:09 Reply Private Reply
#157: Liberator To: buckeroo, GarySpFC (#146)
The Bible is historically ACCURATE. Whether "hand-me-down" oral history, written on scrap papyrus, or through Moses who spoke directly to God or the prophets who also spoke to God, or transcribed His thoughts TO them on our behalf.
DATES. PEOPLE. PLACES. EVENTS. All documented to be absolutely correct. Many have tried to discredit any and all of it, un-successfully. The numerous prophesies are also ALL come true. How can you explain this degree of accuracy from "hearsay, innuendo, gossip, and hand-me-down info"?
Q: If you believe in God as you state, it isn't because you've been "mind-controlled" to any degree. Or is it?
What are the qualities of this universe, this life and our human existence that compel you to possess any faith at all?
Liberator posted on 2018-02-17 12:50:01 Reply Private Reply
#158: no gnu taxes To: Liberator (#157)
That's what I believe. I also believe Hebrew was the oldest language.
I also think there were written records that go far further back than 1000 years BC.
no gnu taxes posted on 2018-02-17 14:03:57 Reply Private Reply
#159: Tooconservative To: redleghunter (#155)
Yeah, I thought I kinda covered that. Unless you have something else in mind.
Tooconservative posted on 2018-02-17 14:43:54 Reply Private Reply
#160: buckeroo To: Liberator (#157)
Which Bible are you referring to? There are a lot of them, with major and minor variations, so please be ACCURATE, yourself. In fact, there are as many Christian churches as variations of the Bible ... with some Christian churches renouncing some Bibles "as the seeds of the Devil."
When observing the world around myself, I question the entire experience process. Some entity created all of the Universe; that being is unknowable. I call that being the creator.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-17 15:02:40 Reply Private Reply
#161: no gnu taxes To: buckeroo (#160)
I have always believed in any faith that saw Jesus as the son of God.
I have attended many Christian churches. I see no churches (legitimate) that saw any Christian as a seed of the devil.
no gnu taxes posted on 2018-02-17 19:03:23 Reply Private Reply
#162: buckeroo To: no gnu taxes (#161)
So you bring up a valid point. What is a "legitimate" church?
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-17 19:19:18 Reply Private Reply
#163: redleghunter To: buckeroo (#162)
The Koine Greek for church is ekklesia. It literally means “a called-out assembly or congregation.” The church is the people and not a building or organization.
redleghunter posted on 2018-02-18 01:00:04 Reply Private Reply
#164: buckeroo To: redleghunter (#163)
This is a fundamental problem with any organized religion. It is all dogma and when I suggest this, it is not limited to any religion anywhere. This is the reason for continuous conflict, for example: Islam vs. Christianity.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-18 08:20:56 Reply Private Reply
#165: A K A Stone To: buckeroo (#164)
A legitimate church would be one that accepts God's word as found in the Bible as truth. An example of an illegitimate church would be one who claims to follow God's word as found in the Bible, but they ignore scriptures. Don't trust it as truth. Or they add thing's to try and make an excuse for something they don't have faith in. An example of an illegitimate church would be Methodists as they pretend to marry faggots.
A K A Stone posted on 2018-02-18 08:42:29 Reply Private Reply
#166: A K A Stone To: buckeroo (#164)
The organized religion quote. Liberals and commies like saying they are against organized religion. The alternative is unorganized religion which is chaos. There is never any truth because it is chaotic and everyone says they have truth, except it contradicts what someone else thinks is true. So that is just chaotic tickling your ear to feel good.
A K A Stone posted on 2018-02-18 08:47:52 Reply Private Reply
#167: buckeroo To: A K A Stone (#165)
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-18 08:53:11 Reply Private Reply
#168: buckeroo To: A K A Stone (#166)
I am neither a "liberal or a commie" and I abhor organized religion. So, you will have to redefine your statement.
Why is that a problem?
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-18 09:01:59 Reply Private Reply
#169: no gnu taxes To: buckeroo (#162)
no gnu taxes posted on 2018-02-18 11:02:07 Reply Private Reply
#170: Liberator To: no gnu taxes (#169)
+100
Liberator posted on 2018-02-18 11:04:24 Reply Private Reply
#171: Liberator To: buckeroo (#160)
Let's just go with the King James Version for the moment.
When observing the world around myself, I question the entire experience process. Some entity created all of the Universe; that being is unknowable. I call that being the creator.
Thanks for answering the questions, honestly.
Liberator posted on 2018-02-18 11:06:09 Reply Private Reply
#172: buckeroo To: no gnu taxes (#169)
Is that why there are so many Christian denominations? Is it because there are "so many fruits?"
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-18 11:27:53 Reply Private Reply
#173: buckeroo To: Liberator (#171)
So, I purchased a variation of the Bible called, "Modern English Version" a few years ago which attempts to use contemporary English as a way of describing the scripture based on King James Version. My wife took the Bible to the local minister for evaluation and he said, "it was of the Devil."
How did he get that authority? My wife wanted a book burning party which I did not permit.
buckeroo posted on 2018-02-18 11:36:03 Reply Private Reply