Ecumenical dialogue is overrated. It is exceedingly rare that it accomplishes anything.

There are certain topics that are never going to lead to any peaceful discussion.

Ecumenical dialogue is overrated. It is exceedingly rare that it accomplishes anything.

That may be so, but it doesn't excuse Christian people treating each other like crap.

Expecting anything else is just naive.

Wisdom is often knowing not to keep putting your foot down on landmines when you know they are there.

Quite often, you can't get a single post on topic. buckeroo isn't too wrong to call it a chat channel. Sometimes I wonder if posters have even read a single sentence of the article. But maybe I'm grumpy.

Pope Francis sends hate letter to Assad

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/12/pope-francis-appeals-to-bashar-al-assad-syria

That Argentine asshole Francis needs to STFU on matters that are NOT faith or doctrine! He's spreading hate and discord worldwide with his crackpot communist personal agenda.

Francis needs to move into the Vatican tool shed, and let Pope Benny 16 run the church.

He's just encouraging the Hillary/Trump neocons (prots) to kill whitey, the pinchy gringo infidel.

Stop the hate, dump Francis the war mongering neocon k0oK!

And the Swiss Guard! Why those gaudy pantaloons and hats. It’s cartoonish, and foppish. I don’t like any of it.

I really wish the clergy would stop wearing those dresses.

Imagine how long it takes them to unbutton those 40-50 buttons if they want to take a dump. Why put buttons only 2" apart? Who does that? But maybe the buttons are fake and the whole front seam is just a big Velcro strip. I don't like the gaudy crucifixes either. Apparently, as you work your way up the hierarchy, you get awarded bigger and classier crucifixes. But they just aren't attractive. They send a bad message, at least to non-Catholics.

I think those little red beanies are an appropriation of the Jewish yarmulkes. They have other hat styles they could wear. And all those phony overpriced shawls and other old-lady gear just seem so stale. And the colors are unattractive, like a scarlet-headed blackbird. Only not as nice. The bird has more dignity.

Princes of the church. Piffle. And the Swiss Guard just could not look gayer. It's a tourist display I guess, like the guards at Buckingham Palace.

God Bless.

I'm not sure why but you made me laugh.

And almost on cue.

Love ya Bro and thanks for this thread. If I have ever offended you in any way I apologize and seek forgiveness.

God Bless.

Thank you. Everybody here needs to try harder at this, and we would all enjoy the place more.

" I really wish the clergy would stop wearing those dresses. If they wore sandals and monastic robes with cowls it wouldn’t bother me so much, but those.dress-like cassocks look smarmy and weird and impractical, like they’re trying to be pretty. And black and red, like the caricatures of the Devil. Why not white, or brown, or grey, even green.

And the Swiss Guard! Why those gaudy pantaloons and hats. It’s cartoonish, and foppish. I don’t like any of it. "

Agree !!!

Thank you. Everybody here needs to try harder at this, and we would all enjoy the place more.

Vicomte13 posted

No you need to try harder at this. You were getting your ass kicked up and down the aisle because you were ignoring scripture. Adding to scripture. Making stuff up saying Mary wasn't a sinner. Yes that is some Catholic bullshit.

I recall another time you were getting your ass kicked. You pulled this same stunt. Same type of thread. Let's all get along. Thing is I don't want to go along with bullshit to get along.

That doesn't mean ai I don't like you or hate you. It means some of your beliefs are out there and not based on scripture. Then someone calls you on it because it isn't in the Bible because it is some made up bullshit. Then you get all mad about it and start saying we aren't christians. I was very careful to say that I don't think Catholics who are doctrinelky in errror that they could still be saved if they actually believed that Jesussus was the saviour.

So we don't all need to do better. That is some liberal group think bullshit.

https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=52835&Disp=183#C183

I propose that we cut that off and come back together in peace.

I was not "getting my ass kicked" or anything like it. There was a thread about gays, and VxH showed up and decided to bring my father's death from AIDS, as if to make a point.

This was very nasty business, but it did not "kick my ass", it made me properly angry.

What I wrote here is objectively true. Christian people should not be talking to each other the way that they do here. If people are to discuss Scripture, God, things spiritual, they should do so in a manner that respects the subject matter. You don't. Too Conservative does not. I try to.

I am not going to debate Scripture with you on this thread. That was not the point. The point was to remind everybody that we are supposed to live within boundaries and keep a guard on our mouths.

You don't want to do so, indeed, you see weakness in doing what Christ said to do. So let that be upon your head.

It has never here been a matter of getting my ass kicked intellectually. Truth is, none of you ever actually engage with the ideas I present. What you do is start to rant and get nastier and meaner, hurling accusations. You, and Too Conservative, and VxH, take the conversation in a direction that forces me to choose to be uncivil and coarse - which sometimes I do, but I'm not good at it and am unwilling to keep at - or to back away and cease the discussion.

Your message just told me that you don't care about the limits that Christians are supposed to place on their mouths, that you're not going to, that you don't read well, that you're not honest, and that you're going to go right on being a nasty jerk, that that's what this site is for - take it or leave it.

I choose to leave it. Good bye. Close my account.

I choose to leave it. Good bye. Close my account.

Sorry to hear that you're leaving and hope that you'll reconsider and come back after a while.

There's a few nasty prots here who are filled with hate against Catholics. Fred Mertz is banned again, a Catholic who cracked his head on the ice in the church parking lot attending Holy Mass.

I don't know if there are any practicing Catholics left here now?

Barry Goldwater “Mr. Conservative”

If a man acts in a religious way, an ethical way, then he’s really a religious man—and it doesn’t have a lot to do with how often he gets inside a church.

And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of “conservatism.”

I am a conservative Republican, but I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don’t hurt anyone else in the process.

has never here been a matter of getting my ass kicked intellectually. Truth is, none of you ever actually engage with the ideas I present. What you do is start to rant and get nastier and meaner, hurling accusations.

You are the one who said you wanted to murder right wingers and that would solve the world's problems.

I treated you fairly so quit spewing bullshit.

That doesn't mean ai I don't like you or hate you. It means some of your beliefs are out there and not based on scripture. Then someone calls you on it because it isn't in the Bible because it is some made up bullshit. Then you get all mad about it and start saying we aren't christians

You ignored this part.

You, and Too Conservative, and VxH, take the conversation in a direction that forces me to choose to be uncivil and coarse - which sometimes I do, but I'm not good at it and am unwilling to keep at - or to back away and cease the discussion.

You should get an Oscar for this dramatic little performance.

It was you who claimed angelic ancestry on that thread, starting in #39.

It was you who claimed that the Father had carnal organs and had sex with Mary in your #84:

Then, after much protestation, I reviewed some of your other heresies regarding whether God is the author of evil and whether Jesus was an XX male (hermaphrodite or close to it) in my #184, claims that you made in just since September.

You can't spout a lot of known ancient heresies (sprinkling in a few you made up for yourself) and not expect Christians with orthodox views to quietly assent to it or agree with you. This is even more true when your own church of Rome does not hold any of these positions and would, if the point were forced, condemn your views on these matters.

So you can stomp off, all hurt and self-righteous. But the truth is that you picked a fight with orthodox Christian belief as it has been known since ancient times and you got your ass kicked. And you think that's unfair.

I didn't and don't particularly want you to leave LF. But if you do, it's on you, bub. You wanted dialogue. You got it. And these were all topics you knew in advance were pure trouble and likely to start fights. Yet you persisted. Then you want to play the wounded woman and flee. Well, fine. But what I have described in this post is a very fair summary of what you did. It's on you, not on us, if you choose to leave after making an ass of yourself.

What I wrote here is objectively true. Christian people should not be talking to each other the way that they do here. If people are to discuss Scripture, God, things spiritual, they should do so in a manner that respects the subject matter.

Indeed this is true and it's something I strive for. Though you and I disagree on some academic points, as well as, of course theology in general, you've shown before and again here your heart is good, and in my book (though perhaps not everyone's), that is the important thing.

Whether you do depart for good now or perhaps may return at some point, I wish you the absolute best.

And of course the Father begat Jesus via Mary.

We Catholics call that Immaculate Conception, it's NOT boning Mary!

It's no wonder that you're prohibited from having statutes of Mary the Blessed Virgin.

Head knowledge -- the contents of our physical brains -- dies with the human body, afterall, and our human bodies are not important. We are Sons of God because we are souls.

What is important is what we do with what we believe, and whether we are fostering and growing our spiritual virtues and quashing our vices, which nearly always has to do with how we interact with others. That is our journey and purpose on earth, and knowing that gives me, at least, good reason to simply brush aside all theological discussion as, though interesting, still moot, in the event there is beneficial reason to do so.

And the simple benefit is that I can wish all of you the absolute best no matter how much you disagree with me, with no compulsion to hurl insults or respond in kind should I receive them. I see all of us as having our individual paths to walk on, though never alone, and all of us must, or should, do whatever we are called to do, and all of us will be well in the end.

We Catholics call that Immaculate Conception, it's NOT boning Mary!

The word 'begat' has specific meaning in scripture. It refers to men having carnal relations with a woman to produce an heir (or male offspring).

Scripture never says that the Father begat Jesus. Yet the vast majority of major Jewish personages in the Bible are listed by lineage as having been 'begat'. But not Jesus.

So are you also on-board with the whole God-has-a-penis-and-screwed-Mary doctrine that Vic seemed to be offering up? Yes or no?

Why don't you go try to peddle that to the local church of Rome where you live and see what the result is. About the same reception as you'll get when you try to say the same thing here. I know the Catholics where I live would never say such things. But they are quite conservative Catholics.

So are you also on-board with the whole God-has-a-penis-and-screwed-Mary doctrine

Why don't you go try to peddle that to the local church of Rome where you live

I said "it's NOT boning Mary", so no I'm not on-board with your fantasy that God has a penis.

Go peddle that shuck 'n jive at your local cults crop circle. Vic never said the crap you're making up.

Go peddle that shuck 'n jive at your local cults crop circle. Vic never said the crap you're making up.

He did say it. I quoted it. You can verify that he wrote it.

Or are you going to try to argue, like a Xlinton, that "it depends on the meaning of the word 'begat'"?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You don't get to make up heretical nonsense entirely outside the teachings of orthodox Christianity for 2,000 years and still claim to represent mainstream beliefs.

Vic: And of course the Father begat Jesus via Mary.

We Catholics call that Immaculate Conception, it's NOT boning Mary!

It's no wonder that you're prohibited from having statutes of Mary the Blessed Virgin.

Are you sure you passed your catechism? I thought this doctrine was drilled into every Catholic child.

Wiki:

Without exception, the church of Rome insists that the Immaculate Conception was that of Mary, not of Jesus. If you believe otherwise, try to find any authoritative Catholic source that says so. You could start with, for instance, Catholic.com, a very staid Roman source:

Maybe you should write them some emails to correct their theological errors. I'm sure they'd like to hear from you.

So I'm kinda wondering just how devoutly Catholic you can possibly be if some Prot retard like me knows fundamental Roman doctrine from the catechism better than you seem to.

You can't be told you are wrong. You're delusional. Close your own account by not signing in.

You have adopted to being an aggressive asshole. What are you doing?

Are you sure you passed your catechism?

So I'm kinda wondering just how devoutly Catholic you can possibly be

No I'm not sure, that was a long time ago. Anyway you can't flunk out of being baptized a Catholic. I haven't been excommunicated yet that I know of, so I'm still in.

I never made any claims to be devoutly Catholic, just a regular old school lapsed Catholic. The most popular type by far. If you expect me to be all new wave Catholic, and read all of Francis' drivel you can just forget that notion, no way!

Fred Mertz is probably all up to date on the latest Francis propaganda in his church bulletin.

Anyway you can't flunk out of being baptized a Catholic.

Sure you can... Henry VIII & Martin Luther are probably the most famous, but a more complete list of historical figures who flunked-out can be found here.

I never made any claims to be devoutly Catholic, just a regular old school lapsed Catholic. The most popular type by far. If you expect me to be all new wave Catholic, and read all of Francis' drivel you can just forget that notion, no way!

As I documented, the doctrine of Immaculate Conception was infallibly dictated by the pope in 1854. And it is part of catechism.

I wouldn't state it as any kind of expert but I don't think you can be considered a real Roman Catholic without espousing it. It's not just a matter of conscience where you can choose to believe it or not. The pope says that you must believe it without exception.

I don't think you can be considered a real Roman Catholic

Alright then, believe whatever you like, but I also confirmed that I was a Catholic Christian, and was slapped by a Bishop. The confirmation name that I chose is John.

I'm not going to try to defend Catholicism against your straw-man "God's penis". Show me a quote by Vic talking about God's johnson.

Vic is a weirdo, but you've got him beat!

I'm not going to try to defend Catholicism against your straw-man "God's penis". Show me a quote by Vic talking about God's johnson.

Exactly what do you think 'begat' means? And Vic did say that God begat Jesus in the same context with the fallen angels begetting the Nephalim (whose descendants are the Basque, people like him).

Begat is begat. Deal with it.

The only really surprising thing in there to me was that it is an extremely rare instance of any acknowledgment of predestination by the Roman Catholic establishment. Otherwise, they loathe the concept. And Luther and Calvin embraced it. Especially Calvin.

At any rate, I can't find any statement that a Catholic is refused communion if they dissent from the doctrine of Immaculate Conception even if the pope did proumulgate the doctrine infallibly in 1846. There are other doctrines for which there is no dissent allowed at all, such as those enumerated at the Council of Trent in 1546 where they list one heresy after the next (mostly Protestant doctrines) and pronounce anathema on anyone, Catholic or Protestant, who does not adhere to the official doctrines of the Catholic church. This 1546 Council is where the catechism itself came from, it was a direct result of the Council.

I also confirmed that I was a Catholic Christian, and was slapped by a Bishop.

Good anecdote. I didn't know about it. I assume it disappeared after Vatican II.

I read this account from 2012: Slapped By A Bishop

By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

There ya go. I was wrong about the possibility of sin before the virgin birth, there was none, ever.

As an earlier post of yours said, lots of people confuse the Immaculate Conception (Mary's birth) with the Virgin birth of Jesus. Yes, I'm guilty of getting them mixed up.

I do wonder what they mean by PERSONAL sin? Are there group sins, or what? Sounds sort of like a loophole, lawyer speak.

Immaculate Conception says that there was no original sin.

there was none, ever.

Are you peddling the crap that Mary never sinned?

Why did she call Jesus her saviour?

There ya go. I was wrong about the possibility of sin before the virgin birth, there was none, ever.

Like many doctrines, it has a sugary coating. We like to think that Mary was an utterly pure being from the moment of her conception. It's poetic and bears a resemblance to similar doctrines found in other ancient religions such as in Egypt.

The problem becomes that if your mother is a virgin, created sinless from the moment of conception, she really cannot need a savior. And she is then not a human being. And therefore Jesus himself was not a real human being. You start to get into various questions about whether they have one body and two spirits or whether they are divine beings who only appear to be human beings. The key point is: if Mary was a magical and godlike being herself, then Jesus was too. Yet scripture and conventional doctrine insist that Jesus was both fully man and fully divine.

Whenever you lessen the humanity of Jesus by emphasizing his godlike attributes, you make Him less and less a human being and He become God in disguise, an actor on a stage in a repertoire piece whose outcome is entirely predetermined. And yet, scripture paints no such picture of Him.

It may be that I cannot describe adequately why the humanity of Jesus was His primary quality, more so than His divinity. I recall a great brief sermon by Charles Spurgeon who preached on this quite passionately back in the day:

Perhaps you can see why Spurgeon was so praised in his day. He had considerable passion for his topic. This sermon was convincing enough to me that I never forget what he was trying to say about Christ as the Son of Man. And it is an interesting feature of scripture that you'll read something like this and then suddenly notice all the many times you've seen the title "Son of man" in scripture. And it doesn't register much until Spurgeon points it out. It didn't hurt that he was a very sweet preacher and writer, very sincere.

Why did she call Jesus her saviour?

Well the Blessed Virgin Mary did get some special privileges like being free from original sin, and full of grace.

Jesus IS the savior, yes or no? Mary was flesh and blood human so she's included.

Jesus IS the savior, yes or no? Mary was flesh and blood human so she's included.

If it were true that she never sinned, she would have no need of a savior. And certainly wouldn't have to give birth to a savior for the rest of mankind.

So I'm kinda wondering just how devoutly Catholic you can possibly be if some Prot retard like me knows fundamental Roman doctrine from the catechism better than you seem to.

I have found the RCIA Catholics know Catholicism better than cradle Catholics. Just my observation. They have to go through the conversion training which is quite rigorous and they do so as volunteers and not compelled like some are growing up.

Don't get me wrong I have quite a few relatives who are aces on the catechism and church history. But the adult converts are very motivated and know their stuff.

I wouldn't state it as any kind of expert but I don't think you can be considered a real Roman Catholic without espousing it. It's not just a matter of conscience where you can choose to believe it or not. The pope says that you must believe it without exception.

It depends. Teddy Kennedy got a full Catholic funeral.

Mary was flesh and blood human so she's included

That is why I like debating and talking to Catholics. Because your beliefs are supposed to be based on the Bible. But to get your doctrine and have to be intellectually dishonest. I say that because you have to ggo outside of scripture to make Mary sinless. Then you also have to ignore other scriptures such as we all have sinned. Why is that? Do you believe the Bible is God's word or not?

Furthermore your comment above is vague and made up because those phrases and ideas aren't found in the Bible. Correct me with scripture if I am incorrect. What does that mean she was flesh and blood human so sh is included? It sounds like jibberish.

Well the Blessed Virgin Mary did get some special privileges like being free from original sin, and full of grace.

Again you can say stuff like that but since it isn't based on scripture as far as I can tell. Why should we believe it to be true.

It is just speculation. When something is taught in the aBible it seems to me it is repeated and cross referenced many times in multiple places. Yet there is no mention of what you just said.

Like I said you have to be intellectually dishonest.

Alright then, believe whatever you like, but I also confirmed that I was a Catholic Christian, and was slapped by a Bishop. The confirmation name that I chose is John.

I'm not going to try to defend Catholicism against your straw-man "God's penis". Show me a quote by Vic talking about God's johnson.

There are minimum requirements. Not attending church at least weekly and on feast/holy days of obligation is considered by the Catholic Church as mortal sin. Unless one is too sick.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/why-is-it-a-mortal-sin-to- miss-mass

Immaculate Conception says that there was no original sin.

Immaculate conception isn't found in the Bible. False teaching.

If Mary never sinned why did she die?

The wages of sin is death. Why would she die if she never sinned?

What is interesting is TC, redleghunter and myself will use scripture to make our points. You,. Vic and Catholics have to add to scripture or leave stuff out. Think about that and let it sink in.

Good anecdote. I didn't know about it. I assume it disappeared after Vatican II.

I read this account from 2012: Slapped By A Bishop

I grew up Catholic in New York. I was confirmed in the 80s and no slap.

Not attending church at least weekly and on feast/holy days of obligation is considered by the Catholic Church as mortal sin.

So what, I'm Catholic not a Saint. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

It may be that I cannot describe adequately why the humanity of Jesus was His primary quality, more so than His divinity. I recall a great brief sermon by Charles Spurgeon who preached on this quite passionately back in the day:

Excellent sermon. I read Spurgeon almost daily.

On the above quote it seems the Truly God, Truly Man or Son of God, Son of Man debate has historical cycles. With the Gnostics the Apostles encountered and ECFs they emphasized the real body and blood of Christ to refute their phantom body error. So we have from the earliest apologists arguments for the humanity of Jesus.

Then a host of heresies on Christology following in the early centuries. Some focusing more on the humanity, some the Deity of Christ to some denying He was Deity at all.

It seems we are more in a Modalist cycle now with Pentecostals. Frankly there are a host of old heresies cropping up.

Thanks for the Spurgeon.

So what, I'm Catholic not a Saint. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I'm not casting stones. Just pointing out getting wet as baby and getting slapped at 12 is not in the definition of the Catholic church being a faithful member. I linked you to Catholic answers maybe take up the conversation with them on why not attending mass weekly is a mortal sin. I think the article they post explains it well.

You could always just walk to your local Catholic church and ask them.

ask them.

Do you think that not going to church at least once a week is a big sin?

I have found the RCIA Catholics know Catholicism better than cradle Catholics. Just my observation. They have to go through the conversion training which is quite rigorous and they do so as volunteers and not compelled like some are growing up.

It's true in other churches too. The converts are often the most knowledgable and serious. I was kind of shocked when I found out just how many people think that sitting in a pew half-awake for an hour each week was all that was needed to punch their tickets for the Pearly Gates. They not only had no interest in theology or what the denomination stood for, they actively resisted any attempt of any kind to examine the distinctive beliefs of their church or any other.

They worked at being uninformed and ignorant. They weren't terribly virtuous or sinful in any way, just totally uninterested. And I'm not exaggerating. Believe me, I could tell a few stories that would shock you.

That is why I like debating and talking to Catholics. Because your beliefs are supposed to be based on the Bible.

No, they aren't.

Rome is all about obeying the infallible doctrines promulgated by the pope and the rare church councils like Council of Trent or Vatican II. To Catholics, the bible is a mere creation of the Catholic church.

There are no bible-believing Catholics. There are only pope-obeying Catholics. Period.

If the pope infallibly promulgated a doctrine that the bible was harmful and that all Catholics must get rid of their bibles, they would have no choice. They would obey or they would no longer be considered Catholic and have no access to Catholic sacraments. And those sacraments have a powerful hold on them.

Do you think that not going to church at least once a week is a big sin?

Not my judgment to make. I was just pointing out Catholic doctrine on the matter and linked you to why they say so.

The source and summit of the Roman Catholic faith is communion. No communion and God's Grace is cut off according to the catechism. That is why they consider it a mortal sin.

Now if you asked me 8 years ago if missing church is a sin, I would probably say no. But now? Why would I want to miss church on Sunday and small group Bible Study? It took a really bad sickness recently due to chemo treatments for me to miss fellowship with fellow Christians. I can't wait for the next church event and look forward to Sundays. I am a member of an Evangelical church which is very active and very young in age range. It's a pleasure to see so many young couples with 4-5 kids all running around. At 50 I'm an old guy there.

There are minimum requirements. Not attending church at least weekly and on feast/holy days of obligation is considered by the Catholic Church as mortal sin. Unless one is too sick.

Yeah, on paper. But when did they last enforce it on anyone? When did they refuse communion for that, refuse a burial because of it, refuse deathbed rites from a priest?

They don't. Not that I know of. So it's required but mostly toothless.

Thanks for the Spurgeon.

There is something refreshing and cheerful about the man and he is still very appealing, even so long after he lived. He had a knack for preaching and oratory and wasn't afraid to be passionate in the pulpit. He was, in private life, quite lively and there are many humorous anecdotes about him. He was as witty as Churchill or Oscar Wilde when he was in the mood for it.

I was kind of shocked when I found out just how many people think that sitting in a pew half-awake for an hour each week was all that was needed to punch their tickets for the Pearly Gates. They not only had no interest in theology or what the denomination stood for, they actively resisted any attempt of any kind to examine the distinctive beliefs of their church or any other.

When I started attending another church in July, the pastor mentioned the above to me. He does not like the term church membership and prefers partnership. Which means being a partner is you do more than pew fill. Very vibrant ministries within and without the church. Such only works if you have motivated members wanting to serve the Lord and others.

I was amazed at how active this church truly is and sound doctrine for oldies like me. :-) The senior pastor is a grad of a Presbyterian university and the assistant pastor is from a Reformed Baptist university. The elders are a mixed bag of both. We even have an elder who was an Army Presbyterian Chaplain.

Then of course we have the Greenbay Packers family which shows up late to service wearing their football jerseys. :-) No church is perfect.

Well the Blessed Virgin Mary did get some special privileges like being free from original sin, and full of grace.

Again you can say stuff like that but since it isn't based on scripture as far as I can tell.

"Full of grace" is definitely in the Bible. The angels words are the beginning of the "Hail Mary" prayer that we Christians say.

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

If Mary never sinned why did she die?

Well...I kinda hate to break it to you but...

So Mary never did die but Catholics didn't find out about it until the pope informed them in 1950 that she just kinda floated off into the air. And, having informed them that she didn't die after all, they were further required to believe that she didn't die or they were no longer considered Catholic.

Apparently, the Eastern Orthodox believe in the Dormition which is the same thing except Mary fell asleep (died), was bodily resurrected (like Jesus), then ascended into heaven by God's power. Jesus, by comparison, ascended into heaven under His own power.

I do hope you won't resort to some sort of low sarcasm. That would be so disappointing.

I was amazed at how active this church truly is and sound doctrine for oldies like me. :-) The senior pastor is a grad of a Presbyterian university and the assistant pastor is from a Reformed Baptist university. The elders are a mixed bag of both. We even have an elder who was an Army Presbyterian Chaplain.

I wish I knew of a church around here that was anything like that.

There are no bible-believing Catholics. There are only pope-obeying Catholics. Period.

Let's not go too far. The majority of Catholics who are motivated to read the Bible (Cardinal Newman highly encouraged Bible studies for the laity but with a priest leading and Vat2 encouraged as well). However, as a former RC the Bible is to be studied with holy tradition as the guide.

My personal experience growing up in a strict Irish Catholic family may have been rare. My mother grew up in Ireland and loved church in her small town. She would hear weekly the liturgy readings from Scriptures and wanted more. She asked one is the Sisters at Catholic school for a Bible. She was quite scolded that only the priest kept the Bible.

When she came back to the US after the seas were clear of Uboats, she a few years later married my dad and as a wedding gift received her first Bible. She would read to us from that Catholic Bible every night along with our prayers. I quickly loved the stories the wonderful artwork in the Bible and drank in those evenings and even more reading during Advent, Lent and Holy Week. Of course I aced all my religious studies and catechism classes.

My Aunt on my dad's side was a Bible thumping Catholic too. She and my uncle were Charismatic Catholics. She gave me my very first Bible at age 10 and such is the history of this Bible thumper. :-)

Yeah, on paper. But when did they last enforce it on anyone? When did they refuse communion for that, refuse a burial because of it, refuse deathbed rites from a priest?

They don't. Not that I know of. So it's required but mostly toothless.

The confessional is their answer. I don't know if it was the parish priest's rule but I remember going to confession before every holy day of obligation was not optional. I remember as a 10 year old trying to come up with stuff to confess. I was always arguing with my siblings so that was an easy one.

Again it depends on the motivation and devotion. With my mother we never missed a Sunday even on vacation and only missed if we were running a high fever. I don't think I witnessed my mother miss church at all in my time under my parents roof. And my dad was an usher and Knights of Columbus and was always doing something with the Church to include run BINGO nights.

We were more strict than the Reagan family on Blue Bloods. :-)

Even when in Florida retired they were even more active. When both of them were homebound in their 80s they found ways to get to church and if not due to their waning months of life a priest or Eucharistic minister came by the house or assisted living facility.

I remember visiting my dad before he passed. He gave me a mission to find his priest and get him to come to his nursing home. I had to track down the dude and bring him there. I was successful. When he got there my father asked him a few questions about the book of Romans. Mind you his mind was not all there, but here I was answering his questions and the priest was listening. FYI my parents got involved with an Evangelical Bible study when they moved to their retirement community. They both accepted Christ as Lord and Savior a few years before they passed. They stayed with the Catholic church as that is all they knew.

My personal experience growing up in a strict Irish Catholic family may have been rare. My mother grew up in Ireland and loved church in her small town. She would hear weekly the liturgy readings from Scriptures and wanted more. She asked one is the Sisters at Catholic school for a Bible. She was quite scolded that only the priest kept the Bible.

Until a century ago, lay Catholics were very strongly discouraged from reading the bible at all, even the bible translations slanted toward Catholic doctrine. Even a few decades back, I recall a Catholic telling me they weren't allowed to read a non-Catholic bible without permission from the local priest and they would have to answer to why they would even want to read such a thing.

My Aunt on my dad's side was a Bible thumping Catholic too. She and my uncle were Charismatic Catholics. She gave me my very first Bible at age 10 and such is the history of this Bible thumper. :-)

There may be bible-believing Catholics now but that was not the tradition of the Catholic churches, either in Europe or America. I did know one of those Catholic charismatic women once. Never missed Mass on Saturday night so she could get up early and spend Sunday at the local Assembly of God. Your aunt was probably about the same. At one time, AoG seemed to be about 20%-30% Catholics from what I could tell. And these local Catholics were quite conservative.

There is something refreshing and cheerful about the man and he is still very appealing, even so long after he lived. He had a knack for preaching and oratory and wasn't afraid to be passionate in the pulpit. He was, in private life, quite lively and there are many humorous anecdotes about him. He was as witty as Churchill or Oscar Wilde when he was in the mood for it.

I think we discussed this before but did you read his Downgrade letters?

Very instructive for today. He was cheerful but a lion against the error of the liberal theology coming out of Germany and infecting the Arminian churches in England.

I posted an intro and link here:

Downgrade

Again it depends on the motivation and devotion. With my mother we never missed a Sunday even on vacation and only missed if we were running a high fever. I don't think I witnessed my mother miss church at all in my time under my parents roof. And my dad was an usher and Knights of Columbus and was always doing something with the Church to include run BINGO nights.

Woh. I never realized you were from such a devout Roman Catholic family.

Urban Catholic life, especially on the east coast, was obviously quite different from the kind of Catholicism you would find in rural America in places that I knew. Only in the largest towns could anyone go to Mass every day. In places like NYC, many older people would expect daily Mass as a matter of course. The sacraments gain a powerful hold in that way.

So Mary never did die but Catholics didn't find out about it until the pope informed them in 1950 that she just kinda floated off into the air. And, having informed them that she didn't die after all, they were further required to believe that she didn't die or they were no longer considered Catholic.

And the Eastern Orthodox don't hold either the Immaculate conception or the Assumption as ancient church teachings. Nor do they believe in the torments of purgatory.

I have some interesting links on that if interested.

I think we discussed this before but did you read his Downgrade letters?

We had extensive discussion of it back when I was at FR. A sad chapter in his life. He had lived through a period of great evangelism and great popularity but as he became old, he found himself being forced to defend what he considered to be settled dogma within his own denomination, the English Baptists. Kind of a sad end to the career of the greatest English preacher. Another career like that was the Presbyterian John Gresham Machen. He withdrew and formed the Orthodox Presbyterian church. Still, a sad ending.

These are examples of why I say that the most important thing that determines what a church will stand for in 50 or 100 years is their knowledge of and adherence to doctrine. Sometimes, people just get tired of correct doctrine, their itchy ears lead them away toward other things.

Nor do they believe in the torments of purgatory.

Now that I didn't know. Or at least I don't recall it.

I was being, of course, a little tongue-in-cheek with my summary of the Assumption. Rome did not actually promulgate doctrine that Mary never died. Maybe she died, maybe she didn't. But she did get beamed up to heaven, either alive or dead. Or maybe she died, got resurrected on earth and then got beamed up if you're Orthodox (I swear, you cannot say the word Theotokos around those people, they go nuts).

Anyway, Stone probably is in shock now over the Mariology of the Roman church. Sometimes called the Mariolatry of Rome by those who take a dim view of how they deify Mary, contrary to scripture.

Woh. I never realized you were from such a devout Roman Catholic family.

Urban Catholic life, especially on the east coast, was obviously quite different from the kind of Catholicism you would find in rural America in places that I knew. Only in the largest towns could anyone go to Mass every day. In places like NYC, many older people would expect daily Mass as a matter of course. The sacraments gain a powerful hold in that way.

I meant my mother never missed Sundays and Holy days.

However she did take us to mass on Wednesdays during summer vacation from school. It was mom me my siblings (dad at work) and two pews of elderly ladies.

Where I grew up in NY there were very few Protestant churches. There was a SDA church near the local parish. We would joke it was a vampire church because we never saw people coming and going and no cars in the parking lot.

Then next to my friends house there was an Episcopal church. Again a ghost town.

Two blocks from my friends house was a small Evangelical chapel which was in a residential area. Really weird but in the middle of a block of middle class homes off the main road was this chapel. It was packed every Sunday and Tuesday. Cars parked on three streets.

One summer day my friend was invited to Vacation Bible School to that chapel. He invited me to tag along. We were 12 and that was where I heard the Gospel for the first time. The rest is history praise be to God.

These are examples of why I say that the most important thing that determines what a church will stand for in 50 or 100 years is their knowledge of and adherence to doctrine. Sometimes, people just get tired of correct doctrine, their itchy ears lead them away toward other things.

Most true.

One summer day my friend was invited to Vacation Bible School to that chapel. He invited me to tag along. We were 12 and that was where I heard the Gospel for the first time. The rest is history praise be to God.

Interesting. I've heard very similar stories before. Of course, the Catholics love to have converts but it seems to be that enthusiastic converts to Catholicism is pretty rare, even if they do lavish a lot of attention on them. OTOH, Catholic converts to Prot churches are welcomed but no special effort to convert them to Protestantism is made. Yet it seems there are far more Catholics converting to Protestantism than vice versa. It's not even close in my experience. I always noticed that the ex-Catholics were all avid Bible students, just loved scripture, like they were starved for it.

Purgatory debate at Synod

You will have to go past a bit of the usual supercilious and pedantic EO introductions. But it gets really interesting half way down.

Basically the Orthodox could not find any ancient teachings on purgatory and any Orthodox churches which did have some leanings look to purgatory as a toll house. Kind of like the Bema seat.

At one point an RC bishop made the point that purgatory was where we go to be punished for venal sins to receive forgiveness. The EO bishop responded that one can only be punished or forgiven but not both. :-) He's right.

The EO bishop responded that one can only be punished or forgiven but not both. :-)

The Orthodox can have a very dry wit when they're making a serious point. And no one actually laughs.

I always thought the EOs won every debate with the RCs. Didn't do them any good because the RCs never seemed interested in the truth.

When I hear people suggesting we need more ecumenical dialog, I always think of how little good it did for the Orthodox. Rome does not dialog in good faith, only for their own advantage.

My north Jersey town was also largely RCC.

Urban Catholic life, especially on the east coast, was obviously quite different from the kind of Catholicism you would find in rural America in places that I knew. Only in the largest towns could anyone go to Mass every day. In places like NYC, many older people would expect daily Mass as a matter of course.

My father -- born in the early 1930s -- lived and grew up in Harlem, NYC.

His family were Italian immigrants, poor, and living in a cold-water flat on the 4th or 5th floor. Heat was partially provided by whatever driftwood and scrap wood could be scrounged from the banks of the East River along with his dad. They'd also scrounge up wild mushrooms and greens. It was a tough existence, substinance was meager. BUT...there was little or ZERO crime.

To your point of "Urban Catholic life," the local parish routinely provided many of the parishioners' needs, from clothes, to food, to any and all kinds of help. The church was THE epicenter of its local society.

Many remained stout RCCs for life, working those rosaries to the bone (like Gramma.) She may have attended mass often -- including obviously Sundays -- but I NEVER hear a single word from her regarding the Bible when I was a child.

(Just a random memory):

From age 7-15 of routinely attending Mass on Sunday (as well as attending Catechism for 4 years), I never heard any Scripture during a sermon other than a brief verse from one of the NT Gospels. Never was any Old Testament scripture ever uttered.

To your point of "Urban Catholic life," the local parish routinely provided many of the parishioners' needs, from clothes, to food, to any and all kinds of help. The church was THE epicenter of its local society.

Even here with a majority Prot community, I never knew anyone growing up who hadn't been born in the local Catholic hospital (unless they were one of the last ones in the era to be born at home). Those nuns were fierce but did a great job, really served the community. No one ever backtalked them at all (any kid who did would have gotten a beating). You didn't mess with the nuns in their hospital. You didn't make any jokes either. It was unthinkable. They had real authority and little patience for debate even with adults.

They were a blessing to all of us. No doubt of it.

From age 7-15 of routinely attending Mass on Sunday (as well as attending Catechism for 4 years), I never heard any Scripture during a sermon other than a brief verse from one of the NT Gospels. Never was any Old Testament scripture ever uttered.

I have heard that before, more than once. I do think they do a lot better over the last 30 years. Vatican II did lead to some positive changes. Prior to that and starting around 1910, while Catholics had been officially (very mildly) encouraged to read the Bible and know it, it still wasn't all that accepted as a practice among the older pre-Vatican Catholics. They were all Mass-and-sacraments types and it couldn't be spiritually correct if it wasn't uttered in Latin with reference to the theology of Thomas of Aquinas. You know what I mean.

Vatican II tried to do more to compete with the teaching of the Bible in the Prot churches, especially in wealthy Western countries that were the breadbasket of Vatican fundraising. They knew they needed to compete. The Vatican is a church but every church is still a business in some sense, as distasteful as it sounds to say it. So around the Eighties, it seems they got much more active in preaching some scripture and encouraging bible study, always within the lines naturally.

I agree -- the nuns of yore were tough ol' broads, doing very important work. NEVER would anyone think of sassing them. You didn't mess. Even the tough guy thugs feared their wrath.

Their patience and sense of humor bone seemed to be broken. Whether in your Midwest or in my urban/suburban parts...I'd always thought THAT to be a shame. They were mostly helpful but...mostly also joy-less. They obviously took their suffering seriously to the point of even emotional deprivation.

I always felt sorry for the one sweet young pretty nun whose bitterness had not yet come to fruition.

They were all Mass-and-sacraments types and it couldn't be spiritually correct if it wasn't uttered in Latin with reference to the theology of Thomas of Aquinas. You know what I mean.

Yup. IN LATIN. Especially in NYC.

They knew they needed to compete. The Vatican is a church but every church is still a business in some sense, as distasteful as it sounds to say it.

So around the Eighties, it seems they got much more active in preaching some scripture and encouraging bible study, always within the lines naturally.

"Competition" in that sense of forcing the RCC to become...I guess, "more Protestant" in style if not also in content somewhat wound up a good thing. That said, the Mass always seemed to be more about all the little traditional rites and performance art, and little to do with teaching the word.

By my end days of attending Mass they'd even brought in folk guitarists to perform the music instead of the tradition pipe organ, which definitely signaled a different direction.

By my end days of attending Mass they'd even brought in folk guitarists to perform the music instead of the tradition pipe organ, which definitely signaled a different direction.

Speaking of a different direction, didn't the change come along around the time that the priest stopped facing the altar to consecrate and started facing the congregation?

There are still Catholics (Mel Gibson would be one), who get very hot on that topic. I think us Prots just don't get the whole dispute, anyway I don't. Gibson funded that Latin rite church just so his dad could attend a real old-fashioned pre-Vatican II Catholic mass in Latin and with the priest facing the altar.

Speaking of a different direction, didn't the change come along around the time that the priest stopped facing the altar to consecrate and started facing the congregation?

I may have been too young or bored to notice. The olde-timers would have noticed something like that...or someone paying attention.

My son attended a mass several years ago with his friends, who attended RCC.

His impression was first and foremost that he was impressed by...THE SHOW. The whole rites thing is impressive if you're watching it from a performance standpoint.

There are still Catholics (Mel Gibson would be one), who get very hot on that topic. I think us Prots just don't get the whole dispute, anyway I don't. Gibson funded that Latin rite church just so his dad could attend a real old-fashioned pre-Vatican II Catholic mass in Latin and with the priest facing the altar.

I don't get it either; can't fathom a God who dings Salvation (and knocks off points) because of something like that. OR, forgetting to dab the finger in the Holy Water tray, a women lacking headwear, or any number of Venial Sin oversights.

Well, Mel is traditional about SOME things, isn't he? So he did establish his own church? Just for his dad?

Heard he's planned a follow up to 'The Passion...', which will explore the aftermath of Christ' last days before ascending afterward. Should break more theater attendance records as Hollywood continues to hate on Gibson.

So that Sedevecantist church didn't last but, at the time, it was kind of a Thing when it became clear to libmedia that Gibson and papa were both very very conservative Catholics. Papa made other inflammatory comments too, doing his son no favors.

Questioning the Holocaust was the one subject the Gibsons invoked was what made them/him persona non grata to begin with in a Hollywood that's known to be very Jewish, very liberal, very Atheist, and very anti-Christian.

I may not agree with the Gibsons on the Holocaust, but it was after all just an opinion. Hollywood has many opinions that at least 50% of America finds offensive.

I give Mel points for trying to reach out to God while helping others develop their faith.

ST. MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL CATHOLIC CHURCH

It looks like a charming little church. Nicely maintained and equipped, as these places go. I'd guess they still benefit from some Gibson money.

Update: nope, that one is in Florida. Gibson's was in Pennsylvania.

The claim of a 911 "remote control" facet of the attack is interesting, given there is no video footage of the Pentagram "plane." Gibson may have something there.

Given what we know today about who runs what, and to what extent those PTB are willing to retain/wield power, it can be said that NO explanation of 911 can truly be discounted or dismissed. Even MORE SO in light of the ongoing coup against DT that's been exposed.

Sounds about right. Priest facing the altar, everything Latin.

Enjoyed your re-telling of your early impressions and belief... My north Jersey town was also largely RCC.

Thanks. The subject just seemed to be a good place to share.

From age 7-15 of routinely attending Mass on Sunday (as well as attending Catechism for 4 years), I never heard any Scripture during a sermon other than a brief verse from one of the NT Gospels. Never was any Old Testament scripture ever uttered.

The sermon or the liturgy as well? I know by my conscious post Vat 2 upbringing, we had one OT/NT epistle reading, a reading from Psalms and then a Gospel reading.

Should break more theater attendance records as Hollywood continues to hate on Gibson.

I'm going to see it in the actual theatre this time because Hollywood hates on Gibson. :)

By my end days of attending Mass they'd even brought in folk guitarists to perform the music instead of the tradition pipe organ, which definitely signaled a different direction.

The sedevacantists are right, Francis is a usurper. FAKE pope!

CMRI: A Traditional Catholic Religious Congregation

The sedevacantists are right, Francis is a usurper. FAKE pope!

One can only imagine what Hutton Gibson would have said about Pope Frank ascending while B16 was still alive. A Catholic cheeky enough to write a book called Is The Pope Catholic? would have had some fun opinions on that topic, no doubt.

CMRI: A Traditional Catholic Religious Congregation

There are more of them around than is generally realized, I think. Not that I object.

Vic deserves a sincere apology.

In his vanity he extended his hand and heart in Christian peace. From what I could see you slapped it away and worst.

WWJD? Seriously.

Just wanted to let you know you're a good man and appreciated here....

Vic, yours was a great vanity, a hand extended in peace and in true Christian brotherhood.

This was the second time that Vic got mad and issued an opus and then followed up with a mea culpa mixed with a can't-we-all-just-get-along because those bad Prots were being mean to him.

Vic likes to post extremely heretical stuff, well beyond the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church, then get all offended when anyone else defends Christian orthodox belief against his religious novelties and vanity posts.

No one wanted Vic to leave, no one told him to leave, and no one is slamming the door and locking it to prevent his return. That is entirely his own choice. I'm fine if he wants to return, as long as he doesn't post some longwinded apology thread or a mea culpa or something equally tiresome.

Vic is the one who raised the bar against his own return to LF by writing this stuff. The rest of us just don't care that much. After posting at FR for years, then LP for more years, and at LF for years, are we still supposed to be impressed by an opus and a following mea culpa? I don't see how we can pretend to be quite that innocent because this is far from our first rodeo, you or me or Stone or Vic or anyone else here at LF. We've all posted at these forums for at least 15 years. For some of us, over 20.

Vic likes to post extremely heretical stuff, well beyond the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church

bad Prots were being mean to him

It's only a little heretical, besides we can always go to confession! That's the Catholic advantage.

Envy leads the Prots to being mean because they've painted themselves into a corner, and can see no way out without admitting that Vic is right about a lot of things.

Vic sent me a couple of LFmails about prot snake handlers, angels boffing women, the Nephilim and whatnot. He takes his religion very seriously. But he's going to have to come back and enlighten y'all himself, I'm not even going to try to explain or defend his viewpoint.

Come back Vic, the snake handlers miss your epistles! They're starting to come around to Christianity and see things your way, but they still need a lot of work.

It's only a little heretical, besides we can always go to confession! That's the Catholic advantage.

Admittedly. You always have your Get Out Of Purgatory card to play.

Come back Vic, the snake handlers miss your epistles! They're starting to come around to Christianity and see things your way, but they still need a lot of work.

No one drove him out, no one said he should leave. That is all on him.

Vic sent me a couple of LFmails about prot snake handlers, angels boffing women, the Nephilim and whatnot.

Well, I'm not so surprised that he was running his own little campaign against us Prot types. Thanks for confirming it.

campaign against us Prot types

Yes, Hillary the lesbian Methodist was right. It's a Vast Right Wing Catholic Conspiracy! Fred, Vic, and myself.