Finding milkmaids in the 21st century isn't so easy.

It seems they do have milking machines for goats and sheep at Amazon. Not just one, a number of types. They offer different sizes of teat cups, goat hobbles (I only ever had hobbles for a cow), other equipment.

Your prospects of finding enough reliable teat-squeezing peasants may not be as rosy as you think. Even so, I wish you luck with finding them.

Finding milkmaids in the 21st century isn't so easy.

I always figured that I would have an easier time persuading the Russians to let me turn Siberia into a vast set of linked farms than persuading any American state to let me turn the wild whitetails into a semi-domesticated herd.

There are plenty of peasants in Russia willing to do things a lot more demeaning than that.

In the US, I would prefer to use prisoners. Handling their own animals often makes really bad men better than they were.

I always figured that I would have an easier time persuading the Russians to let me turn Siberia into a vast set of linked farms than persuading any American state to let me turn the wild whitetails into a semi-domesticated herd.

Russia is willing, eager even, to bring in American agricultural producers with expertise. They have ranchers and cowboys over there from places like Wyoming and Montana (people who are used to cold weather and a hard life).

I had a great uncle who was an engineer in the auto industry in Michigan who went over there in the 1920s and helped them design and build modern factories for machine production.

It's a good thing Americans went over and did that, because it was those same factories that churned out war material that ate up the German armies two decades later. Without those production facilities, the USSR would never have been able to survive the German onslaught, and we would have faced an ugly one-front war against the Third Reich on the beaches of France.

After the Cold War ended, men like Tillerson went over there with their companies and helped the Russians re-establish their oil industry on modern lines. Russia really is a land of opportunity for American engineers with vision. It's a vast land with people who are well- educated in the sciences, but who do not have the benefit of modern systems theory or capital. Russians are hardy, and they will work as regular employees in places so harsh that American workers would demand - and get - high pay as an incentive to go.

Russia's a hard place, to be sure, and if you try to set up any sort of financial system, you are going to get robbed. (That is also true in China, for different reasons: the Chinese government will steal your intellectual property. The Russian government won't do that, but the Russian mob will literally steal any money you bring in.) In Russia, you can have security if you build things in agriculture, in raw materials exploitation, in power generation. And you building things means that you provide the money and some expertise - the Russians themselves will build it and operate it, but if you provide the funds and some plans, the Russians will let you get a reasonable profit stream from it and won't just seize it. There is a rule of law, of sorts, in Russian when you stay down in beetroots and machine parts. Try to make money on money flows, which is to say usury, and you're going to get devoured.

In China, you can make a profit for a few years, while you build your big factories. But then they will steal you blind and take all of your intellectual property.

And anyway, China is not full of deer. Siberia is. One of the Soviet Winter War plans was to move large populations of defeated Finnish Laplanders to Siberia to make it productive in cold weather agriculture and industry. Of course those plans never came to be because the Finns fought the Soviets off pretty effectively until the very end - and then Stalin had far bigger fish to fry than little Finland.

"So many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - Finnish expression from 1940.

You would really have to have a market demand to justify creating the herd and barns and machinery and such. And then get the reindeer to be a little cooperative.

have you ever even milked a cow?

Yeah watch the closest hind leg closely.

teat-squeezing and hire peasants to do that part.

You will at least need 8 maids a milking.

Just think how the "12 days of Christmas" reinforces white privilege. :)

In the US, I would prefer to use prisoners. Handling their own animals often makes really bad men better than they were.

In Texas some Juvenile Corrections facilities teach ranching/farming skills. That could be a ministry for you Vic. Come on down to Texas and leave behind your Yankee ways (as I did). :)

You really ought to have been a University professor.

You're problem would have been boredom if you were compelled to teach the same subject every year.

(Still have that reindeer dream? :-)

I still think it would be difficult to line up and milk reindeer with milking machines. And they still only would produce something like two quarts of milk per day. A dairy cow can produce gallons.

You would really have to have a market demand to justify creating the herd and barns and machinery and such. And then get the reindeer to be a little cooperative.

Now...THIS is classic LP/LF fare. Hilarious.

I for one enjoy it.

MLK had his dream; Vic has his.

The couple quarts + untrainable reindeer does present logistics probs if the intent is commercial liability.

Reindeer milk. Reindeer Mozzarella. Reindeer yogurt. Hmmm...

Yeah watch the closest hind leg closely.

When the day comes when I'm milking a reindeer or cow, I'm hoping for a kick in the head ;-)

You will at least need 8 maids a milking.

Just think how the "12 days of Christmas" reinforces white privilege. :)

Uh-oh. 12 Days of a WHITEY Christmas. Great meme.

In Texas some Juvenile Corrections facilities teach ranching/farming skills. That could be a ministry for you Vic. Come on down to Texas and leave behind your Yankee ways (as I did). :)

Excellent idea. Vic, first you've got to run a personal pilot program.

I truly believe Vic could well conduct a Juvie project and turn it into a ministry...

Or run seminars in his native New England. I can see one or all being successful for him...

All those retired hippies up in Vermont, Mass, NY State and CT are BEGGING for something like this.

Btw, dunno how anybody can leave NY/NJ/CT pizza and beaches for...Texas ;-/

Yeah watch the closest hind leg closely.

Hence a proper set of hobbles. And a rope if they're really uppity.     : )

My hobbles were very old and looked just like this

I see they have nicer nylon hobbles now that would be gentler to the skin.

The couple quarts + untrainable reindeer does present logistics probs if the intent is commercial liability.

I'm not saying the reindeer are untrainable, just undomesticated.

You can break even a herd cow in adulthood to milk. But you find that most aren't amenable. They just don't like us. I can't blame them. However, something around 15%-20% of herd cows can be bribed to docility with a quart or two of corn. Just make sure that you're done milking before they finish their bribe.     : )

I'm not saying the reindeer are untrainable, just undomesticated.

So...IF they can become domesticated, it is plausible they will hold still and cooperate for a quart or two per day?

You can break even a herd cow in adulthood to milk. But you find that most aren't amenable. They just don't like us. I can't blame them. However, something around 15%-20% of herd cows can be bribed to docility with a quart or two of corn. Just make sure that you're done milking before they finish their bribe. : )

Don't like those odds. And timing. As a Joisey guy, I think I'd rather roll the dice and brave the lunatics in the dairy section of Walmart. WAIT....

The couple quarts + untrainable reindeer does present logistics probs if the intent is commercial liability.

Just for fun, do it all in remote Siberia.

Vic had better win the lottery.

Reindeer milk. Reindeer Mozzarella. Reindeer yogurt. Hmmm...

You might be surprised. Sell it as all-organic, super-healthy, tell the rubes that the Eskimos are eating and drinking reindeer milk and living to be 185 years old, the usual sales blarney.

It's not impossible, given adequate marketing and enough stupid rich hippie types. Vic probably knows tons of 'em right in his own neighborhood.

So...IF they can become domesticated, it is plausible they will hold still and cooperate for a quart or two per day?

Being truly domesticated takes many centuries. Dogs are domesticated. Most cow breeds are domesticated. Cats are barely domesticated. Goats and sheep are mostly domesticated.

So you wouldn't get truly domesticated animals in your lifetime probably. But if you raise them in captivity and that is all they know and they can't really forage for themselves, complete dependency of a herd on humans does look a lot like domestication.

You could likely find feeds they would especially like, that would increase their milk production as well. Clovers, alfalfas, apple cube products, all that stuff you can buy to attract deer.

You only need to get them to walk into their milking stall and hold still for five minutes twice a day. And they do have some discomfort if they aren't milked so that works for you.

Don't like those odds. And timing. As a Joisey guy, I think I'd rather roll the dice and brave the lunatics in the dairy section of Walmart. WAIT....

It would be a total yuppie product. Not in the price range of the People Of Walmart.

Come on down to Texas and leave behind your Yankee ways

I'm from Michigan - a Midwesterner - not a Yankee.

Siberia aside, I still think it would be difficult to line up and milk reindeer with milking machines...You would really have to have a market demand t

Quite impossible, really. Reindeer, moose and elk are skittish. You have to do it by hand.

Cervid milk is very rich in milkfat. Producer cow milk is 3.75% milkfat. Reindeer milk in on the order of 23%.

Market demand is easy to generate. You take the milk and you make gjetost desert cheese out of it. You cut it into three ounce blocks and you put it in green, red and white wrapping with a picture of Santa's face and reindeer, and you market it at Christmastime as "Santa's own" - genuine reindeer milk cheese. You sell it for $15 a cube.

Likewise, you make reindeer milk chocolate, in the form of a reindeer, and sell that.

And finally, you market a triple-creamy Bullwinkle's Butter, made from moose milk.

And once you've milked the white-tails, Bambi Brand And Hart Healthy Elk milk.

Reindeer, moose and elk are skittish. You have to do it by hand.

There are ways to significantly gentle most any species. It may take a generation or so. We just haven't tried very hard yet. I can think of a number of approaches that might work beyond food bribery.

Market demand is easy to generate. You take the milk and you make gjetost desert cheese out of it.

First, you have to explain to the yuppie foodies what that is and why they want it more than life itself.

And finally, you market a triple-creamy Bullwinkle's Butter, made from moose milk.

You're making me uncomfortable. LOL

And once you've milked the white-tails, Bambi Brand And Hart Healthy Elk milk.

A man with ambitions. Heh-heh.

I think you might be more commercially viable with elk than with whitetail or reindeer. A bigger animal, it can produce more milk per animal, reducing labor costs, facility overhead, etc.

Just for fun, do it all in remote Siberia.

But is it enough of a challenge?

8-P

You might be surprised. Sell it (reindeer milk, cheese, yogurt, etc) as all-organic, super-healthy, tell the rubes that the Eskimos are eating and drinking reindeer milk and living to be 185 years old, the usual sales blarney.

It's not impossible, given adequate marketing and enough stupid rich hippie types. Vic probably knows tons of 'em right in his own neighborhood.

Absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised at all that reindeer dairy products could find a very viable marketing niche in New England as well as the Pacific NW.

Yup...parade some wrinkled up 185 year old Yankees claiming IT has been THE reason for challenging Methuselah's longevity and good health.

You only need to get them to walk into their milking stall and hold still for five minutes twice a day. And they do have some discomfort if they aren't milked so that works for you.

SOMEWAY, I feel compelled to defer to the skilled hands of you midwestern types and Yankee types who find squeezing and tugging on select animal parts for milk more routine.

Walmart might carry the Chinese "reindeer" milk for a very reasonable price ;-)

Yes...the snob-appeal should also work in Vic's favor. I can see Whole Foods carrying Reindeer milk. Say $12 per quart (is that enough??)

Market demand is easy to generate. You take the milk and you make gjetost desert cheese out of it. You cut it into three ounce blocks and you put it in green, red and white wrapping with a picture of Santa's face and reindeer, and you market it at Christmastime as "Santa's own" - genuine reindeer milk cheese. You sell it for $15 a cube.

Likewise, you make reindeer milk chocolate, in the form of a reindeer, and sell that.

And finally, you market a triple-creamy Bullwinkle's Butter, made from moose milk.

Duuude!

Marketing looks done! ("Triple-creamy Bullwinkle's Butter"?) Get a move on with this dream! 23% fat? Moose and Squirrel Milk Shakes! Whatchoo waiting for? Seriously...

("And finally, you market a triple-creamy Bullwinkle's Butter, made from moose milk.")

You're making me uncomfortable. LOL

Heh...(now that you mention it)

TheLibertyConservative: Reindeer Farmer Turned Congressman Hopes To Regain Lost House Seat In 2018

Since we've had a number of posts now based on this reindeer "farmer", I thought I'd mention a bit more about him.

He's a Santa impersonator and his thing is getting his reindeer to pull a sleigh in parades and at special events. I can't find a picture of them actually pulling the sleigh.

I don't think he milks the reindeer or the chickens.

I have to wonder if he's brave enough to stand that close to the reindeer bucks during the rut. I know I wouldn't.

I can see Whole Foods carrying Reindeer milk. Say $12 per quart (is that enough??)

It would be in that price range, I think. At least initially.

I don't think he milks the reindeer or the chickens.

Bwaahaa!

I have to wonder if he's brave enough to stand that close to the reindeer bucks during the rut.

Dunno about that; the menage a buck look kinda...happy. Especially the mammal in the middle.

It may take a generation or so.

Remember, I'm Basque AND Sami. Basques have been fishing herring and milking sheep for something like 40,000 years. And Sami have been fishing herring and milking reindeer for about 30,000.

The reindeer thing (and moose) is already a think in Samiland - has been since before anybody walked into America from Alaksa.

But milking the WHITE TAILS, our kind of deer way down here - THAT is a new thing!

Not hard to see why. Cows and yaks and buffalo are relatively docile (bison aren't - and nobody milked them), and sheep and goats are relatively docile and small, so you can manhandle them.

There are those things wherever there are whitetails, and deer don't have the same production. So, to milk the deer would have meant trying to tame an immensely skittish, dangerously strong animal you can't manhandle, and that can get away, and kick the hell out of you...in other words, you get hurt a lot, and you get maybe a cup of milk out of them for your troubles. And the males will kill you during certain seasons (not that you're going to be milking the males (...not that there's anything wrong with that...)).

OR you could just get three cups of milk everyday from a little goat that isn't going to randomly go berserk and kick you to death. Deer are hard. Reindeer are quite a bit more docile. You can actually harness them up to pull a sleight. Moose also. Try pulling a sleigh with whitetails. Think of the insane, tangled, braying, kicking goat rope that would be!

There's a reason that we haven't tried this yet.

But there's a reason to do it. Truth is, forests are good and clean the air, but they are really not economically productive at all, unless you chop them down (and then you h'ain't got no more forest).

The deer naturally thrive in woodland, so if you turn them into vast semi- domesticated dairy herds, the forest becomes a source of ongoing meat, milk and soft deer leather that is native to the environment and does not require anything like the endless care that other dairy animals require.

The forested vastness of Canada and Siberia is mostly uninhabited and has no economic function or much of a future other than to become Japanese chopsticks. Systematize cervid dairy, and suddenly there is a modest but steady stream of useful products that will generate more economic return and employ quite a few more people than simply slashing down the taiga.

Also, because the milk is unique, wild and healthy, and a new thing, it could be done in a very different way. If you run the taiga whitetail farms (and red deer also) as wild organic no-kill, you could create a food supply for the animal loving niche, and no-kill soft leather.

who have been known to bite your sister

Moose bytes kan be pretti nasti!

The thing with reindeer. In the summer, the males have antlers to compete for females. But as winter comes, the male antlers fall off and the females grow antlers, which form a redoubtable antler wall around the babies when the snows come. The relatively defenseless males get eaten in the winter by the wolves, while the antlered females circle and defend their babies and themselves. Come spring, the females lose their antlers and the males gain theirs.

So, when you look at Santa's sleigh, you note that all of the reindeer have antlers, and it's winter, which means that Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and Blitzen are all females. Rudolph is confused.

I think you might be more commercially viable with elk than with whitetail or reindeer.

Of course. But you see, that is the CHALLENGE. My people have been milking reindeer for 40,000 years. And moose.

But nobody's done the whitetails yet. The poor whitetails just get shot and hit by cars. But there they are, grazing milk producers that don't need pasture at all - they take care of themselves and feed themselves on your flowers.

I would be happy to take on the body management duty too. Lots of deer get hit. That meat would make great dog food and cat food, and the pelts are the softest leather. Let me have the bodies. Let me tag the deer and raise up the females to be tame enough to approach later - we do not tame the males - they don't produce milk, and they are dangerous in rut. Leave the males wild, and leave the females part-wild. Give them safe pasture for birthing and baby raising - and milk them there. This lets you hand tame the new crop of babies. Let them run wild and free the rest of the year.

A side effect will be to clean up the diseases that run in the wild and have a healthier herd.

But this will remain just a dream unless I win the lottery.

Then we just have to find something to do with reindeer jizz.

I'm sure you can make a fortune on it as an "ancient medicinal substance" in China, and as the "secret ingredient" in cosmetic skin care products in the rich West.

Btw, dunno how anybody can leave NY/NJ/CT pizza and beaches for...Texas ;-/

Yes the pizza and change of seasons is well missed. But we make the most of it when we visit.

Btw, dunno how anybody can leave NY/NJ/CT pizza and beaches for...Texas ;-/ Yes the pizza and change of seasons is well missed. But we make the most of it when we visit.

The best beaches of all are those of northern Lake Michigan. Bright clean sand, blue clear lakes, no salt, no jellyfish, no sharks, no pollution...practically no people. You never get thirsty on the beach because you just go swimming and drink the water.

There are those things wherever there are whitetails, and deer don't have the same production. So, to milk the deer would have meant trying to tame an immensely skittish, dangerously strong animal you can't manhandle, and that can get away, and kick the hell out of you...in other words, you get hurt a lot, and you get maybe a cup of milk out of them for your troubles. And the males will kill you during certain seasons (not that you're going to be milking the males (...not that there's anything wrong with that...)).

OR you could just get three cups of milk everyday from a little goat that isn't going to randomly go berserk and kick you to death. Deer are hard. Reindeer are quite a bit more docile. You can actually harness them up to pull a sleight. Moose also. Try pulling a sleigh with whitetails. Think of the insane, tangled, braying, kicking goat rope that would be!

Yeah, I'd stick with the reindeer. Or try the elk maybe. Whitetails (or mulies) seem like an exercise in masochistic husbandry.

So, when you look at Santa's sleigh, you note that all of the reindeer have antlers, and it's winter, which means that Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and Blitzen are all females. Rudolph is confused.

I was unaware. I can see why it would work for the survival of the species in very harsh climates. Males are pretty dispensable once they've contributed sperm. And they eat too much for Mother Nature to keep them around through the winter.

But nobody's done the whitetails yet. The poor whitetails just get shot and hit by cars. But there they are, grazing milk producers that don't need pasture at all - they take care of themselves and feed themselves on your flowers.

You don't know any farmers, do you?

The whitetail is an evil parasite. It lives off the finest feed you can produce. Your best alfalfas and clovers and wild hay and cane that you stockpile for the winter are a favorite target for these foul creatures.

Naturally, much of the Midwest was untreed before man settled so these were not areas where deer were native. So farmers do resent that the states will board these parasites on their property, eating and destroying their best feed.

You figure that a wolf will eat about a deer a week, if that's all they have to eat (it isn't - they eat salmon, rodents, rabbits, etc.) so a pack of 20 will eat 20 a week. If they were just eating deer, that'd be 1040 deer a year.

Reindeer herds run in the tens or hundreds of thousands, and it is really humans that keeps them limited. Wild herds in wild Siberia where there are no people run to over a million. The wolf and bear populations are large to match.

You don't know any farmers, do you?

I have known a few, back home and down South. In Connecticut, the deer herd is large and suburban, and there are no farmers or hunters. Their biggest predators are coyotes and cars. You can't keep flowers where I live without a fence, and the fence has to be a high wall. The "deer repellent" they sell makes the deer unhappy, but if they are hungry enough, they'll eat whatever it is sprayed with anyway. And it washes off with the rain.

Cows and sheep would be pests to crop farmers also, if they weren't herded.

Wild herds in wild Siberia where there are no people run to over a million. The wolf and bear populations are large to match.

I've seen some footage of their migrations. Awesome stuff. Reminds me of the migrations of wildebeests across the African savannas. Like the reindeer, they have predators waiting for them and following their migration (lions, crocs, hyenas, etc.).

Sometimes you start to see these herd animals as Nature's protein transfer systems. But they are more than that.

Hey, if milking the reindeer and whitetails doesn't work out, you could try the gnus!     : )

Naturally, much of the Midwest was untreed before man settled so these were not areas where deer were native.

Naturally, the parts of the Midwest where my folks headed were the tree- covered, lake-splotched, snowy far north of it. The Upper Peninsula of Michigan is like Finland, but without the glitter.

Up there, crop farming is hard, and people really didn't. They fished and hunted, and mined copper and cut trees, and trapped fur, and moved the stuff around, for employment. Some tried to cut down the forest and plant crops, and you can make rutabagas and cabbages grow there...which the hares will promptly devour...and you can get that sort of stuff down the lake by trading the local products. Today, everything comes in by truck, and nobody mines copper or traps fur anymore for a living. But the deer are there, waiting for somebody to come and make a new industry.

Nobody else is going to do it, because nobody believes in it. I win the lottery, and that's what I do - starting in Michigan.

I love animals, get along with them, don't like to kill them. So I'm going "no kill" with two native species: the white-tails. I'm happy to add the moose and the elk to that, but that's for show and to get interest. The whitetails are the heart of the operation. No-kill whitetail dairy and leather. That's one line. I don't pretend that it would be easy, but I do believe that it is doable, and that after a decade or two of unprofitability, a steady if low margin profit stream can be generated by the milk and the leather - maybe the meat as dog food and cat food (you don't want to be eating meat that dies of natural causes).

The other line would be more profitable: there are wild sturgeon in the great lakes, and they spawn in certain rivers. Sturgeon produce caviar. The Michigan sturgeon are not used for that, and there is only a limiting fishing season, but the point is that they ARE there, naturally - this is sturgeon habitat. That means that certain of the breeding pools can be established as a sturgeon hatchery.

Now, here's the thing: a German fellow has developed a means to hand milk the eggs out of sturgeon females, such that the females are not killed and continue to grow. This or similar techniques are already used at a Latvian sturgeon farm and a South Korean one, which produce no-kill caviar thereby.

The fish live and get bigger and bigger by the season (no longer having human predators), and produce more and more eggs.

Deer milk, soft deer leather, and no-kill sturgeon caviar - straight from Northern Michigan. That's a good start.

The third thing I have in mind is zebra mussel harvesting. Thanks to the St. Lawrence Seaway, the Great Lakes have become infested with zebra mussels. These shellfish are not noxious, but they do cover everything...including the insides of municipal water pipes, causing issues.

Shellfish are edible, and mussels are good for you. Their shells concentrate calcium and potassium and, ground up, make enriching fertilizer. Harvesting those mussels - just stripping them off of stuff - would be a public service. And a process could be made, maybe, to extract the meats. Otherwise, just grind up the whole mass and make fertilizer or salmon feed.

And finally, duck, goose, swan and seagull eggs. These waterfowl abound in a place where one is never more than 1 mile from some body of water. Michigan is a wet place. Wild birds are free range, and seagulls, at least, are not a remotely endangered species. So set up nesting and harvest some eggs.

Then there are the trees themselves and their edible products.

A lottery win means freedom to pursue these things. If God wants them to be, He will make it possible.

But first we gotta try milking pigs.

like Finland, but without the glitter.

The Michigan tourism board wouldn't care for that description.     : )

Now, here's the thing: a German fellow has developed a means to hand milk the eggs out of sturgeon females, such that the females are not killed and continue to grow. This or similar techniques are already used at a Latvian sturgeon farm and a South Korean one, which produce no-kill caviar thereby.

Now that is interesting, providing you can avoid disease. You know the challenges for fish farms.

Thanks to the St. Lawrence Seaway, the Great Lakes have become infested with zebra mussels.

Pretty much the original Republican Big Gooberment project. The ruinous demands for taxation of the South that set off the Civil War were to be used to fund such projects. Goddammed Yankee scum.

But first we gotta try milking pigs.

Other than some bacon and the occasional pork chop, I tend to agree with the opinions of the Jews about swine.

Now that is interesting, providing you can avoid disease. You know the challenges for fish farms.

You let the sturgeon be wild. It's just that when they swim up the rivers to spawn, you gate them in during the season and milk some of the eggs from the large, wild fish. You don't pen them all year, and you do let them naturally reproduce. Unlike salmon, sturgeon swim up river, nest, spawn, and swim back out to the big lake afterwards. They'll do that for a hundred years and more if they aren't killed. So you protect them from hunting, and you protect their spawning ground, and you hand-harvest some of the eggs. And you otherwise let the fish be.