libertarians (certainly those at Reason) were intensely critical of George W. Bush's executive branch overreach and Barack Obama's too, while conservatives and liberals generally stayed silent when their guy was doing the power grabbing.

Libertarians are consistent in their principles regardless of which statist regime is in power.

The Trump cultists here (and the Bush-Bots before them) will accept any level of tyranny as long as it's their guy in the Oval Office.

Libertarians are consistent in their principles regardless of which statist regime is in power.

The Trump cultists here (and the Bush-Bots before them) will accept any level of tyranny as long as it's their guy in the Oval Office.

I'm consistent also: human basic needs come first, before other considerations. It is best when everybody remembers that and cooperates. But when some men refuse to cooperate, then it is ok and necessary to coerce them to get done what needs to be done.

"Libertarianism is nothing if not the antithesis of authoritarianism.

Just stop at, "Libertarianism is nothing." It's a 2% fringe group that no one supports because it's philosophy is more anarchy than anti-authoritarianism.

"as pro- American Middle Easterners realize they're being hung out to dry."

Right. There's a whole bunch of pro- American Middle Easterners in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. They love us. Keep telling yourself that.

"The Trump cultists here (and the Bush-Bots before them) will accept any level of tyranny as long as it's their guy in the Oval Office."

What tyranny is that? All I see is Trump acting on the campaign promises that got him elected.

"then it is ok and necessary to coerce them to get done what needs to be done."

Uh-huh. Take from each according to their ability to pay, and distribute to each according to their needs.

Where have I heard that before?

Libertarians are consistent in their principles

Gary the faggot johnson libertardian

murder babies, displace American workers with foreign invaders. If you're a man suck dick.

Fuck the libertarians.

The Trump cultists

Says the guy who believes in talking lizards.

Gary the faggot johnson libertardian

Johnson is a FAKE libertarian.

The Trump cultists

Says the guy who believes in talking lizards.

I believe that what David Icke refers to as alien lizards are in fact demons from another plane of existence.

Johnson is a FAKE libertarian.

Not according to dopey (hondopehead). Dopey said at least 100 times we should support Gay Johnson.

Gary the faggot johnson libertardian

murder babies, displace American workers with foreign invaders. If you're a man suck dick.

Fuck the libertarians.

Sorry that the term "libertarian" triggers you snowflake - maybe you need to go to your safe space and pet a puppy.

Uh-huh. Take from each according to their ability to pay, and distribute to each according to their needs.

Where have I heard that before?

Well, you read that each gave according to his ability, and each received according to his needs from St. Luke in his Acts of the Apostles.

Sorry that the term "libertarian" triggers you snowflake - maybe you need to go to your safe space and pet a puppy.

lol.

Here is what I don't like about libertarians. They think moral and immoral are the same thing.

Right is not wrong.

You dope cultists are amoral.

Here is what I don't like about libertarians. They think moral and immoral are the same thing.

That's a lie, but don't let the facts get in the way of your hatred for those who don't subscribe to your simplistic views.

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals — if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories.

The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

Ronald Reagan

"Well, you read that each gave according to his ability, and each received according to his needs from St. Luke in his Acts of the Apostles."

Voluntarily. As an act of kindness and charity.

Not forced by the government.

Here is what I don't like about libertarians. They think moral and immoral are the same thing. That's a lie,

Drug use is immoral. Libertarians champion it.

Case closed you lose.

Most libertarians support open borders. It is in their pathetic platform. Neal Bortz for example.

Generally speaking libertarians are atheists.

Atheists suck.

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals — if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories.

The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

Ronald Reagan

There are some libertarian positions that are admirable.

Like leave me alone. Still they are basically an amoral group.

One came to our high school back in the 80's. I thought they guy had a lot of weird ideas.

Voluntarily. As an act of kindness and charity.

Not forced by the government.

It is my opinion that Vic is a very decent person that wants to help people. He wants a just world.

It is my opinion that on scripture he gets a few things wrong. Just a few. It is my opinion that he substitutes individual responsibilities and reponsibilities of the church and makes them the governments responsibility.

It makes it harder to tithe if Vic and people like him supports about half of your money being taken by the government before you get anything from your labors.

"They think moral and immoral are the same thing."

Libertarians believe in moral relativism -- that there is no universal moral truth. Individuals decide on their own moral standards and detest a society/religion/government which imposes moral standards on them.

Voluntarily. As an act of kindness and charity.

Not forced by the government.

No.

The tithe was for poverty relief, and absolutely mandatory.

The release of debt in the seventh year was mandatory, not voluntary.

The requirement to lend to the poor believer who asks, without interest, is mandatory, not voluntary.

Of course everything is "voluntary". You can go kill somebody if you want to, and maybe get away with it on earth in this life.

But for longer-term prospects, Jesus made clear what we must do.

"There are some libertarian positions that are admirable. Like leave me alone."

“Libertarianism,” according to conservative Jonah Goldberg, “is an ideology best suited for young folks. It compellingly tells kids everything they want to be told.”

The requirement to lend to the poor believer who asks, without interest, is mandatory, not voluntary.

Then Jesus must be a sinner. He refused to give the money from their treasury to the poor. He said there would always be poor people.

I know some poor people Vic. They need your phone number. They want to ask you for some money.

They just want 10 percent of what you have.

The tithe was for poverty relief, and absolutely mandatory.
The release of debt in the seventh year was mandatory, not voluntary.
The requirement to lend to the poor believer who asks, without interest, is mandatory, not voluntary.

Tithing is not mentioned at all in the Acts of the Apostles. Plus, tithing is a religious concept not a government law.

The same is true of the others.

"It is my opinion that Vic is a very decent person that wants to help people."

If that were true, I'd sympathize. But Vic is a person who wants the government to force me to help people.

hondopehead). Dopey said at least 100 times we should support Gay Johnson.

I never said to vote Johnson, those are the voices in your head. But Reince Pribus ordered you to vote R, no matter how evil the candidate. So you support Satin's puppet, Trump.

blah blah blah blah blah....BLAH!! Belch, burp, bottomBURP AND FART-styx...MUD

BTW...U R a sissy, dude.

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals — if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so- called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories.

The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

Ronald Reagan

Now, I can't say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who CALL themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians [like you, Deckard, and hondope] who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy.

Probably not …

But Vic is a person who wants the government to force me to help people.

Correction: I want the government to continue to force you to pay taxes, along with everybody else, so that we can, as a polity, continue to help people. That's right.

"Correction: I want the government to continue to force you to pay taxes, along with everybody else, so that we can, as a polity, continue to help people. That's right."

"The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
-- James Madison, speech in the House of Representatives, January 10, 1794

Go genuflect before your statue of St. Donald slave-boy.

...effort to support your fanatical anarchist agenda to destroy America?

You neo-con pricks already did that with your support of Dubya.

It's a good mix of people, including some conservative critics (The New York Time's Ross Douthat, National Review's David French, Commentary's Noah Rothman) and Steve Horwitz of Bleeding Heart Libertarians along with yours truly.

Good mix of people for what,pop up targets?

BTW,*I* consider myself to be a Libertarian in the model set forth by Thomas Jefferson. Shitheads like YOU are "Libertarians" in the model of Hitler. The only viewpoint you consider to be acceptable is your own.

The Trump cultists here (and the Bush-Bots before them) will accept any level of tyranny as long as it's their guy in the Oval Office.

Wake up,dummy! It ain't tryanny if it is harmful to the current police state and helpful to setting America back on a Constitutional basis.

Just stop at, "Libertarianism is nothing." It's a 2% fringe group that no one supports because it's philosophy is more anarchy than anti-authoritarianism.

Well,it's understandable that a natural-born slave that longs for the boot heel of a dictator on the back of his neck to think that no one else values freedom.

"then it is ok and necessary to coerce them to get done what needs to be done."

Uh-huh. Take from each according to their ability to pay, and distribute to each according to their needs.

Where have I heard that before?

FOP union meeting?

Not according to dopey (hondopehead). Dopey said at least 100 times we should support Gay Johnson.

So what?

You DO understand we are all free to think for ourselves,right?

WTH would I or anyone else care about what Johnson thinks?

I never have claimed to be an anarchist.

You are what you are….and Ted Bundy was what he was!

Drug use is immoral. Libertarians champion it.

Case closed you lose.

WRONG X 2.

Drug use is NOT immoral,and Libertarians do NOT "champion" it.

What Libertarians stand on is the ground that says all free adults have the right to live their own lives in peace as long as they are not harming others.

What is TRULY immoral is some witch doctor telling the sheep in his flock what is moral and what is immoral,when clearly THEY have no idea of what morality means.

One came to our high school back in the 80's. I thought they guy had a lot of weird ideas.

Do you base your opinion of all members of a political party on the public utterances of ONE of them?

Does John McLunatic or Lady Lindsey speak for you?

Libertarians believe in moral relativism -- that there is no universal moral truth.

Really? Find me ONE prominent actual Libertarian that claims murder,rape,slavery,etc,etc,etc are all just peachy-keen.

Either that,or STFU about things you don't understand.

But for longer-term prospects, Jesus made clear what we must do.

Be slaves to the Pope?

Teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles when Priest enters the room?

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals — if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so- called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories.

The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

Ronald Reagan

Ronald Reagan was not talking about what you fanatical Paultard assholes call libertarianism.

When Ronald Reagan said that “If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism,” he didn’t mean today’s dope-and-sodomy libertarianism.¹.

He was talking about the western character of conservatism he shared with other western Republicans. In the open spaces of the west, one comes to believe in a live-and-let-live way of operating.”¹.

Reagan's record, while generally conservative, is not particularly libertarian.².

Ronald Reagan was NO Libertarian.³

Get that through your thick skull …

"The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." -- James Madison, speech in the House of Representatives, January 10, 1794

James Madison, the slaveholder, is dead.

In America today we have rejected James Madison's slavery, and we have also rejected his view on public charity. We have decided that poverty relief is an object to which government at all levels is properly engaged in combating.

Madison would have opposed this, and you still do.

But I think that poverty relief is a proper goal of government. And my view is in the majority, so it's the law of the land.

Be slaves to the Pope?

Teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles when Priest enters the room?

No, Jesus didn't tell us to be slaves to the Pope, or to teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles for priests.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach those things either.

"But I think that poverty relief is a proper goal of government. And my view is in the majority, so it's the law of the land. "

And what happens when the percentage of those in poverty reach 51%? What's to stop them voting themselves all the money of those who work?

"In total, the Census Bureau estimated, 151,014,000 Americans out of a population then estimated to be 306,804,000 received benefits from one or more government programs during the last three months of 2011. Those 151,014,000 beneficiaries equaled 49.2 percent of the population".
-- Oct 23, 2013

James Madison, the slaveholder, is dead.

Vic is alive too.

Vic would vote for HIllary the baby Killer if she ran against Cruz the christian.

No, Jesus didn't tell us to be slaves to the Pope, or to teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles for priests.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach those things either.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach little boys to bend over. But they did cover up quite a bit of it for quite a long period of time.

Be slaves to the Pope?

Teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles when Priest enters the room?

You know very well that that isn't the teachings of Christ.

And what happens when the percentage of those in poverty reach 51%? What's to stop them voting themselves all the money of those who work?

Common sense. The filibuster. The Courts. The whole system of checks and balances in our system. The fact that Congressmen and Senators and state legislators are themselves all people of means who won't vote for that because it won't work.

Truth is, there's no risk of that happening.

Vic is alive too.

Vic would vote for HIllary the baby Killer if she ran against Cruz the christian.

That choice was not on offer.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach little boys to bend over. But they did cover up quite a bit of it for quite a long period of time.

And it was disgusting that they did so, and is a reason why Catholics do not docilely do whatever the Church says. In the Middle Ages, many did, but men in power, whether in government or in the Church, sometimes grotesquely abuse that power.

Which means that men in power, including men of the Church, cannot be completely trusted and always have to be watched. One of the 12 Apostles, handpicked by Jesus, was a scumbag.

The priestly pedophilia cases, and the Church's coverup of them, teach us what we all should have known already: you cannot completely trust anybody with your kids - you have to be vigilant.

Anyone who does questions authority, demands accountability for cops, is against the drug war, criticizes Trump and exposes corrupt criminal government actions.

No, Jesus didn't tell us to be slaves to the Pope, or to teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles for priests.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach those things either.

Hard to believe after looking at history.

Be slaves to the Pope?

Teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles when Priest enters the room?

You know very well that that isn't the teachings of Christ.

Yes,I do,but we both know very well that might as well have been the teachings of the Catholic Church for hundreds of years,and for hundreds of years they were the only Christian Church.

It was the corruption and evil done by the Catholic Church that led to the revolution that created Protestantism,and it was started by Martin Luther,a Catholic Priest himself that was fed up with the corruption from Rome.

Ronald Reagan was NO Libertarian.

The fact remains - what he said about "...the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism" is true.

BTW, your obsession with sodomy is just a bit bizarre - do you think you could keep your fantasies to yourself?

This place doesn't need another homo like yukon defiling the character of this site.

Hard to believe after looking at history.

Yes, yes, you detest the Catholic Church. We know.

You needn't worry. Catholics make up maybe 20% of the population of the US, and half of them are only nominal Catholics, not real practitioners. So there's zero danger of them doing anything that will interfere with your life.

I would like to know is just ONE authoritarian thing Trump has done as President...JUST ONE?....

I'm betting that he has told Melina at least once to "Shake it,baby!"

The priestly pedophilia cases, and the Church's coverup of them, teach us what we all should have known already: you cannot completely trust anybody with your kids - you have to be vigilant.

I think the Prime Lesson learned from that is more universal,and has been expressed many times by the saying "Power corrupts,and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

None of us are entirely immune to those temptations,but I AM willing to bet more than 90 percent of us have no trouble not molesting children. That's a special kind of sickness that goes beyond normal temptations.

"The incidence of sexual abuse by teachers in public schools today has been estimated to be "more than 100 times" that by Catholic priests, and there is alarming evidence of school officials covering up abuse and failing to report suspected cases to authorities."

So you're saying the government will, and should, turn it's back on the needy? You're heartless after all.

You have a reading comprehension problem.

The fact remains -

Now, I can't say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who CALL themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians [like you, Deckard, and hondope] who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy.

for hundreds of years they were the only Christian Church.

That isn't true.

Your specialty.

Can’t you ever do anything but make up lies and post them?

Obviously not …

Vic would vote for HIllary the baby Killer if she ran against Cruz the christian.

That choice was not on offer.

True. But you did say that if Cruz got the nomination you would vote for Hillary.

"The incidence of sexual abuse by teachers in public schools today has been estimated to be "more than 100 times" that by Catholic priests

Sounds like you are saying since Muhammad molested hundreds of little kids it is ok if mistergreen molests one.

Be slaves to the Pope? Teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles when Priest enters the room?

You know very well that that isn't the teachings of Christ.

Yes,I do,

But you said it anyway.

our deception to cherry pick out certain words

r hondope

Your fake news team/alternative facts/lies specialists.....

ISIS Gatlin, and FireIsland

True. But you did say that if Cruz got the nomination you would vote for Hillary.

I probably did that, at a time when I was furious at Cruz for his attacks on Trump. I also said I would not vote for W after his goons took out McCain in South Carolina by insinuating that he had had relations out of wedlock that fathered a black child, when in fact he and his wife had adopted a child from India (I think it was).

I was so disgusted with W that I said I would not vote for him.

But come election time, I held my nose and voted for him anyway.

Same thing with Romney. With Romney I said it was the LAST TIME I would hold my nose and vote, and I meant it.

But the world moves on and new situations arise, and given that it was Hillary Clinton running, and her campaign reminded me just how odious she was, had Cruz been the nominee, or Jeb, or probably any of them, I very probably would have gone and angrily and sullenly voted for the nominee and then bitched about it forever afterwards, pretty much like most of the "NeverTrumpers" did, in the end, go vote for Trump - and hate it.

But yes, in the heat of the primary battle, I said I would not vote for Cruz, and at that moment in time I really truly meant it.

I had a girlfriend once in California who was just not my type, and I kept saying at the end of each weekend "I am NEVER doing that again - I've got to break this off..." But she had other...qualities...that overrode the personality incompatibility.

Sometimes we do what we don't want to do, even though we really meant it when we said "Never!" or "Never again!"

Drug use is NOT immoral

Let me guess, you're one of those asshole faggot loving libtards that call drug addiction a disease?

Illegal drug use IS immoral and prescription drug abuse is also immoral.

Illegal drug use IS immoral and prescription drug abuse is also immoral.

You make no sense. Clearly, you mean to write: "drug use is immoral" but some how you are convinced about some maegikal POWER of GOVERNMENT interference. Why?

for hundreds of years they were the only Christian Church.

That isn't true.

Really? Who else was there?

"The incidence of sexual abuse by teachers in public schools today has been estimated to be "more than 100 times" that by Catholic priests

Sounds like you are saying since Muhammad molested hundreds of little kids it is ok if mistergreen molests one.

Read that same way to me,too.

Be slaves to the Pope? Teach little boys to bend over and grab their ankles when Priest enters the room?

You know very well that that isn't the teachings of Christ.

Yes,I do,

But you said it anyway.

No,I wrote that was the teachings of the Catholic Church,and various Priests.

AFAIK,Christ was never a Catholic.

Let me guess, you're one of those asshole faggot loving libtards that call drug addiction a disease?

If you are anything,it is consistently wrong.

I probably did that, at a time when I was furious at Cruz for his attacks on Trump. I also said I would not vote for W a

Fair enough. We all say things like that.

I'll try to give that line of attack a rest.

"Sounds like you are saying since Muhammad molested hundreds of little kids it is ok if mistergreen molests one."

Not at all. But if you focus on mistergreen day after day, week after week and completely ignore the actions of Muhammad (who is 100X worse), then I question your objectivity and your agenda.

"But you said it anyway."

Because he's a troll and an attention-seeking whore.

"Clearly, you mean to write: "drug use is immoral"

Aspirin use is immoral? Are you insane?

No,I wrote that was the teachings of the Catholic Church,

The Catholic Church taught boys to bend over for sodomy?

Ummmm...no.

The Catholic Church taught boys to bend over for sodomy?

Ummmm...no.

Ummmm,yes.

Otherwise it would have been made public and punished hundreds of years ago.

A "nod and a wink" is as good as official doctrine. ANY organization that knowingly allows that sort of thing to happen,and then covers up for it when it may be exposed,is evil. Period.

A "nod and a wink" is as good as official doctrine. ANY organization that knowingly allows that sort of thing to happen,and then covers up for it when it may be exposed,is evil. Period.

What's your view on slaveholders?

A "nod and a wink" is as good as official doctrine. ANY organization that knowingly allows that sort of thing to happen,and then covers up for it when it may be exposed,is evil. Period.

What's your view on slaveholders?

You mean like the Pope and his officials?

You mean like the Pope and his officials?

No, I was thinking George Washington and his.

No, I was thinking George Washington and his.

George Washington has slaves?

I hate to be the one to break it to you,but GW died a long time ago. It was in ALL the papers.

I guess LF has descended into Facebook level discussion, or at least I have.