
These aren't your filthy hippies and stoners looking for an excuse to toke (not that there's anything wrong with that!): The American Legion is calling for the federal government to reclassify marijuana to acknowledge its potential benefits as a medical treatment.
As Jacob Sullum previously noted, The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is stubbornly refusing to change the federal classification of marijuana as a drug that has no "accepted medical use" until science proves them wrong. Fortunately they're easing off on the Catch-22 situation that has resulted in this classification making it extremely difficult for researchers to perform the very scientific testing that could determine marijuana's medical value.
One of the potential medical values of medical marijuana is as a treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). And in what must certainly at this point make it abundantly clear where the majority of Americans stand on marijuana use, the American Legion has just voted at its national convention to support a resolution calling on Congress to legislatively reclassify cannabis and place it in a category that recognizes its potential value.
The resolution, readable here at marijuana.com, highlights a number of important statistics that have helped push the Legion to support it. Across two years, the Department of Veterans Affairs have diagnosed thousands of Afghanistan and Iraq War veterans as having PTSD or Traumatic Brain Injuries (TBI). More than 1,300 veterans in fiscal year 2009 were hospitalized for brain injuries. And the resolution notes that systems in the brain can respond to 60 different chemicals found in cannabis.
Therefore, the American Legion wants the DEA to license privately-funded medical marijuana and research facilities and to reclassify marijuana away from being lumped in with drugs like cocaine and meth.
Tom Angell over at marijuana.com notes that Sue Sisley, a psychiatrist and medical marijuana researcher, has been lobbying the Legion and their local posts to get their support. Sisley is notable for actually getting federal permission to research marijuana as a treatment for PTSD and then getting dumped by the University of Arizona (where she worked) in 2014.
What does this mean for a legislative effort to give VA docs permission to actually talk about medical marijuana as a treatment for veterans? As I noted in May, there was an amendment to a military appropriations bill that would end a gag order that prohibits VA doctors from recommending or even discussing medical marijuana treatment with patients, even in states where it had been legalized. The amendment would end the gag order, but wouldn't permit the VA to prescribe or pay for marijuana.
The amendment passed the House and Senate, but as Angell notes, after the two sides went through the reconciliation to hammer out any difference, the language completely disappeared. It is no longer part of the Veterans Administration package.
Legislators return to session today to hammer out last-minute spending bills to keep the government running (and the Democrats and Republicans are currently in disagreement on how long to extend spending authorizations for the incoming administration). Technically the amendment's language could be restored.
#1: nolu chan To: Deckard (#0)
DEA, 81 FR 53779-53781, August 12, 2016
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 08:44:10 Reply Private Reply
#2: Justified To: nolu chan, Deckard (#1)
Nothing the government has stated about pot is true which in my opinion makes people question what government says about other drugs. This leads to people trying and getting hooked on other more truly dangerous drugs like meth, crack, heron and more. Some of the most dangerous drugs are man-made drugs which leave people mentally broken for life such as K2/spice.
JFYI
I had smoked pot for nearly 5 years back in the 80's. Stopped without an issue and never had any side affects. It did not drive you crazy it just mellowed you out. It did not make me steal, rape or assault people.
Justified posted on 2016-09-07 08:56:30 Reply Private Reply
#3: Deckard To: nolu chan (#1)
Or is it nolu spam?
Either way your tedious copy and paste posts add nothing to the discussion.
Your submissive fealty to the State has been documented numerous times on this forum.
One of the potential medical values of medical marijuana is as a treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). And in what must certainly at this point make it abundantly clear where the majority of Americans stand on marijuana use, the American Legion has just voted at its national convention to support a resolution calling on Congress to legislatively reclassify cannabis and place it in a category that recognizes its potential value.
Filthy hippies!
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 08:57:56 Reply Private Reply
#4: Deckard To: Justified (#2)
Nothing the government says about anything is true.
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 08:59:16 Reply Private Reply
#5: Gatlin To: Deckard, nolu chan (#3)
Coming for you....the king of copy and paste....that's hilarious !!!
ROTFL! BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
ROTFL! BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Gatlin posted on 2016-09-07 09:14:06 Reply Private Reply
#6: misterwhite To: nolu chan (#1)
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-07 09:16:53 Reply Private Reply
#7: Gatlin To: Deckard (#4)
Coming from a person who believes every yellow journalism article he reads.... that's hilarious !!!
ROTFL! BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Gatlin posted on 2016-09-07 09:17:25 Reply Private Reply
#8: Deckard To: Gatlin (#7)
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 09:29:05 Reply Private Reply
#9: Deckard To: misterwhite (#6)
As opposed to pharmaceutical anti-depressants which have been proven to cause psychotic episodes?
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 09:30:26 Reply Private Reply
#10: nolu chan To: Deckard (#0)
Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics v. DEA, 15 F.3d 1131 (D.C. Cir. 1994)
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 09:49:48 Reply Private Reply
#11: nolu chan To: Deckard (#0)
Americans for Safe Access, et al., v. Drug Enforcement Administration, No. 11-1265 (D.C. Cir. 22 January 2013) slip op
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 09:50:22 Reply Private Reply
#12: misterwhite To: Deckard (#9)
Nope. Just like pharmaceutical anti-depressants which have been proven to cause psychotic episodes.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-07 09:58:10 Reply Private Reply
#13: Deckard To: misterwhite (#12)
Oh for fuck's sake - seriously?
How many mass shootings have been instigated by someone high on marijuana?
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 10:02:02 Reply Private Reply
#14: nolu chan To: misterwhite (#6)
In what medical dosage? Two tokes every four hours as necessary? Of a substance of unknown strength? This is why Deckard refuses to discuss the legal requirements for any substance to be accepted as medicine.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 10:06:44 Reply Private Reply
#15: misterwhite To: Deckard (#13)
We weren't discussing mass shootings or getting high. The discussion was about giving a substance known to cause psychosis to an individual who has been diagnosed as having a mental disorder.
I'm saying that I don't think it's a good idea.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-07 10:11:06 Reply Private Reply
#16: misterwhite To: nolu chan (#14)
I believe the "doctor's" recommendation for marijuana would read more like, "Smoke as much as you want, as many times as you want, for as long as you want."
It's technical, I know.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-07 10:15:54 Reply Private Reply
#17: misterwhite To: nolu chan (#14)
Deckard want to make an exception for marijuana because shut up.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-07 10:18:31 Reply Private Reply
#18: nolu chan To: Justified (#2)
Your opinion is interesting. It has even been tried in court. It failed. It is not medicine. It is a Scheduled drug per international treaty and Federal law. The medical opinion of the DHHS is binding on the DEA.
See #10 and #11.
Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics v. DEA, 15 F.3d 1131 (D.C. Cir. 1994)
Americans for Safe Access, et al., v. Drug Enforcement Administration, No. 11-1265 (D.C. Cir. 22 January 2013) slip op
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 10:21:25 Reply Private Reply
#19: Deckard To: nolu chan (#18)
So sayeth the almighty DEA.
How many doctors did the DEA consult with?
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 10:23:00 Reply Private Reply
#20: Deckard To: nolu chan (#14)
Whatever works best for the individual.
I realize that this is an alien concept for you two fed.gov shills, but the government does NOT own your body.
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 10:24:39 Reply Private Reply
#21: nolu chan To: misterwhite (#16)
Yep. Any kind of doctor. It could be Deckard's proctologist writing exactly that scrip because Deckard's ass wants to get high.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 10:25:18 Reply Private Reply
#22: Deckard To: nolu chan (#21)
Scumbag asshole coward.
This isn't about getting high you simpleton.
Chickenshit motherfucker.
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 10:28:02 Reply Private Reply
#23: nolu chan To: Deckard (#20)
Rx: Whatever works.
Whatever works best sounds like a plan. If a beer or a shot of scotch works best, get a scrip for it and have health insurance pay for it.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 10:34:07 Reply Private Reply
#24: nolu chan To: Deckard (#19)
The medical opinion of the DHHS is binding on the DEA.
Look at the quacks that you rely on:
Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics v. DEA, 15 F.3d 1131 (D.C. Cir. 1994)
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 10:39:10 Reply Private Reply
#25: Deckard To: nolu chan (#23)
Fuck you clown boy.
Like I said, the DEA or any government agency does not decide what medicine works best for an individual.
Rant on with your precious opinions, but the fact remains - the DEA is keeping cannabis as a Schedule I drug simply to protect big pharma.
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 10:44:24 Reply Private Reply
#26: nolu chan To: Deckard (#22)
Bullshit. This is not about medicine. You just want to go to a quack, say you want something for your head, and get a phony scrip. Next would be getting your Obamacare to pay for it.
To be medicine, a substance, every substance, must pass tests. Marijuana has not.
DEA, 81 FR 53780, August 12, 2016
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 10:50:14 Reply Private Reply
#27: nolu chan To: Deckard (#25)
It is the medical and scientific opinions of the DHHS that are binding on the DEA, you ignorant jerk.
Americans for Safe Access, et al., v. Drug Enforcement Administration, No. 11-1265 (D.C. Cir. 22 January 2013) slip op
The government decides what may be lawfully prescribed as medicine and what is illegal to cultivate, distribute or possess.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 11:05:25 Reply Private Reply
#28: Deckard To: nolu chan (#27)
ESAD.
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 11:11:05 Reply Private Reply
#29: nolu chan To: Deckard (#25)
And you just want to be able to go to your proctologist and get a scrip to get your ass high.
Marijuana is a schedule drug by international treaty, and federal law, and fails all five prongs of the test for being authorized as medicine.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 11:11:43 Reply Private Reply
#30: nolu chan To: Deckard (#28)
YMFCSCJSDEKLSOBWBC.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 11:12:59 Reply Private Reply
#31: ConservingFreedom To: nolu chan (#1)
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-07 11:13:03 Reply Private Reply
#32: nolu chan To: Deckard (#28)
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 11:15:20 Reply Private Reply
#33: HomerBohn To: Deckard (#0)
Watch Colorado for an example of what ensues when knuckleheads legalize a hallucigenic drug. Scores of brain-addled numbskulls on the road and when they enter another state the police are always looking for Colorado tags on a car driving erratically.
This is a Pandora's Box!
HomerBohn posted on 2016-09-07 11:17:59 Reply Private Reply
#34: ConservingFreedom To: HomerBohn (#33)
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-07 11:23:43 Reply Private Reply
#35: Gatlin To: Deckard (#8)
Oh, you poor little baby....you should try not to get so upset when facts are presented to you.
Try....try hard.
Gatlin posted on 2016-09-07 11:30:58 Reply Private Reply
#36: Deckard To: Gatlin (#35)
nolu spam posts opinions
Deckard posted on 2016-09-07 11:41:14 Reply Private Reply
#37: HomerBohn To: ConservingFreedom (#34)
HomerBohn posted on 2016-09-07 12:07:49 Reply Private Reply
#38: nolu chan To: ConservingFreedom (#31)
Which part of "reclassify it in a category that, at a minimum will recognize cannabis as a drug with potential medical value," makes sense to you?
I know this is really taxing for you, but it seems to be lacking any scientific evidence to justify anything.
Moreover, you seem to fail to recognize wordsmithing signifying nothing.
DEA, 81 FR 53779-53781, August 12, 2016
It cannot meet the first test to safely prescribe as medicine.
Marjuana has been determined to not have a "currently accepted medical use," nor a "currently accepted medical use with severe restrictions.''
Officially, within the schedule system, what the hell does it mean to "reclassify it in a category that, at a minimum will recognize cannabis as a drug with potential medical value?"
Nobody said it does not have potential medical value. It has no currently accepted medical use.
A requirement for Schedule V is "The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States."
Absent a finding of some "currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States," marijuana (or any other substance) is not even assignable to Schedule V, the lowest schedule.
There is no schedule category that recognizes a substance with potential medical value. Just about every substance may have potential medical value. That does not connote that it has any currently accepted medical use.
- - - - - - - - - -
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 12:26:04 Reply Private Reply
#39: Gatlin To: Deckard, nolu chan (#36)
And you post Yellow Journalism half truths and lies.
Chan makes sense....you make yourself look like the idiot that you are.
Gatlin posted on 2016-09-07 12:29:01 Reply Private Reply
#40: nolu chan To: Deckard, Gatlin (#36)
Deckard posts recycled bullshit over and over.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 12:32:48 Reply Private Reply
#41: ConservingFreedom To: HomerBohn (#37)
LOL! Now, now ... I also was banned from FR*, but however goofy JR and the mods are, it's just not the case that fact becomes fiction simply by being posted to FR.
*Details here if you're interested: http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=45337
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-07 12:37:09 Reply Private Reply
#42: ConservingFreedom To: nolu chan (#38)
Are you this stupid, or are you hoping others on LF are? "The five elements" are authoritative because of authority that ultimately derives from Congress and its legislation; when the subject is (urged) Congressional CHANGES to legislation, the CURRENT state of the rules is no longer binding.
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-07 12:41:34 Reply Private Reply
#43: nolu chan To: ConservingFreedom (#42)
I have given up all hope for you. Your brain has apparently been fired on drugs.
It is already in a Schedule where it already has been recognized as a substance with potential medical value. It just kind of lacks "currently accepted medical value.
DEA, 81 FR 53779-53781, August 12, 2016
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 14:17:56 Reply Private Reply
#44: ConservingFreedom To: nolu chan (#43)
You've answered my question - you are that stupid.
Poor stupid nolu spam.
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-07 14:27:57 Reply Private Reply
#45: tpaine To: ConservingFreedom (#44)
To nolu, (and his buddies here) the government is all powerful and can declare damn near ANYTHING, or any behavior, illegal. - --- This is beyond stupid, -- it is an anti-constitutional theory.
tpaine posted on 2016-09-07 16:47:54 Reply Private Reply
#46: redleghunter To: Deckard (#0)
redleghunter posted on 2016-09-07 17:00:24 Reply Private Reply
#47: ConservingFreedom To: redleghunter, Deckard (#46)
Nope - membership is declining because Vietnam vets haven't joined: articles.latimes.com/1998/nov/11/local/me-41612
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-07 17:23:34 Reply Private Reply
#48: nolu chan To: tpaine (#45)
Listening to two stoned dopers who believe they are having a conversation is listening to pure stupid.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of really good shit.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-07 17:31:58 Reply Private Reply
#49: Hondo68 To: Deckard, Gatlin, ConservingFreedom, redleghunter, tpaine (#36)
A friend who is a Vietnam vet, also retired from the California National Guard about 4 years ago.
He has PTSD and has been on prescription psych drugs for about 30 years or more. He called me up a couple of years ago, all jazzed because his VA psychiatrist took him off of all prescription drugs. For the first time in decades he's off of the hated psych meds and drug free, but with California Medical Marijuana as a back up, as needed. He's officially considered cured, and weed helped.
That one story is enough to convince me that MM should be available to all.
Hondo68 posted on 2016-09-07 18:38:15 Reply Private Reply
#50: Gatlin To: hondo68 (#49)
PTSD: National Center for PTSD
Marijuana Use and PTSD among Veterans
Marcel O. Bonn-Miller, Ph.D. and Glenna S. Rousseau, Ph.D.
Marijuana use for medical conditions is an issue of growing concern. Some Veterans use marijuana to relieve symptoms of PTSD and several states specifically approve the use of medical marijuana for PTSD. However, controlled studies have not been conducted to evaluate the safety or effectiveness of medical marijuana for PTSD. Thus, there is no evidence at this time that marijuana is an effective treatment for PTSD. In fact, research suggests that marijuana can be harmful to individuals with PTSD.
Epidemiology
Marijuana use has increased over the past decade. In 2013, a study found that 19.8 million people reported using marijuana in the past month, with 8.1 million using almost every day (1). Daily use has increased 60% in the prior decade (1). A number of factors are associated with increased risk of marijuana use, including diagnosis of PTSD (2), social anxiety disorder (3), other substance use, particularly during youth (4), and peer substance use (5).
Cannabis Use Disorder among Veterans Using VA Health Care
There has been no study of marijuana use in the overall Veteran population. What we do know comes from looking at data of Veterans using VA health care, who may not be representative of Veterans overall. When considering the subset of Veterans seen in VA health care with co-occurring PTSD and substance use disorders (SUD), cannabis use disorder has been the most diagnosed SUD since 2009. The percentage of Veterans in VA with PTSD and SUD who were diagnosed with cannabis use disorder increased from 13.0% in fiscal year (FY) 2002 to 22.7% in FY 2014. As of FY 2014, there are more than 40,000 Veterans with PTSD and SUD seen in VA diagnosed with cannabis use disorder (6).
Problems Associated with Marijuana Use
Marijuana use is associated with medical and psychiatric problems. These problems may be caused by using, but they also may reflect the characteristics of the people who use marijuana. Medical problems include chronic bronchitis, abnormal brain development among early adolescent initiators, and impairment in short-term memory, motor coordination and the ability to perform complex psychomotor tasks such as driving. Psychiatric problems include psychosis and impairment in cognitive ability. Quality of life can also be affected through poor life satisfaction, decreased educational attainment, and increased sexual risk-taking behavior (7). Chronic marijuana use also can lead to addiction, with an established and clinically significant withdrawal syndrome (8).
Active Ingredients and Route of Administration
Marijuana contains a variety of components (cannabinoids), most notably delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) the primary psychoactive compound in the marijuana plant. There are a number of other cannabinoids, such as cannabidiol (CBD), cannabinol (CBN), and cannabigerol (CBG). Marijuana can vary in cannabinoid concentration, such as in the ratio of THC to other cannabinoids (CBD in particular). Therefore, the effects of marijuana use (e.g., experience of a high, anxiety, sleep) vary as a function of the concentration of cannabinoids (e.g., THC/CBD). In addition, the potency of cannabinoids can vary. For example, the concentration of THC in the marijuana plant can range in strength from less than 1% to 30% based upon strain and cultivation methods. In general, the potency of THC in the marijuana plant has increased as much as 10- fold over the past 40 years (9,10). Recently, cannabis extract products, such as waxes and oils, have been produced and sold in which the concentration of THC can be as high as 90%. Thus, an individual could unknowingly consume a very high dose of THC in one administration, which increases the risk of an adverse reaction.
Marijuana can be consumed in many different forms (e.g., flower, hash, oil, wax, food products, tinctures). Administration of these forms also can take different routes: inhalation (smoking or vaporizing), ingestion, and topical application. Given the same concentration/ratio of marijuana, smoking or vaporizing marijuana produces similar effects (11); however, ingesting the same dose results in a delayed onset and longer duration of effect (12). Not all marijuana users may be aware of the delayed effect caused by ingestion, which may result in greater consumption and a stronger effect than intended.
Neurobiology
Research has consistently demonstrated that the human endocannabinoid system plays a significant role in PTSD. People with PTSD have greater availability of cannabinoid type 1 (CB1) receptors as compared to trauma-exposed or healthy controls (13,14). As a result, marijuana use by individuals with PTSD may result in short-term reduction of PTSD symptoms. However, data suggest that continued use of marijuana among individuals with PTSD may lead to a number of negative consequences, including marijuana tolerance (via reductions in CB1 receptor density and/or efficiency) and addiction (15). Though recent work has shown that CB1 receptors may return after periods of marijuana abstinence (16), individuals with PTSD may have particular difficulty quitting (17).
Marijuana as a Treatment for PTSD
The belief that marijuana can be used to treat PTSD is limited to anecdotal reports from individuals with PTSD who say that the drug helps with their symptoms. There have been no randomized controlled trials, a necessary "gold standard" for determining efficacy. Administration of oral CBD has been shown to decrease anxiety in those with and without clinical anxiety (18). This work has led to the development and testing of CBD treatments for individuals with social anxiety (19), but not yet among individuals with PTSD. With respect to THC, one open trial of 10 participants with PTSD showed THC was safe and well tolerated and resulted in decreases in hyperarousal symptoms (20).
Treatment for Marijuana Addiction
People with PTSD have particular difficulty stopping their use of marijuana and responding to treatment for marijuana addiction. They have greater craving and withdrawal than those without PTSD (21), and greater likelihood of marijuana use during the six months following a quit attempt (17). However, these individuals can benefit from the many evidence-based treatments for marijuana addiction, including cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational enhancement, and contingency management (22). Thus, providers should still utilize these options to support reduction/abstinence.
Clinical Recommendations
Treatment providers should not ignore marijuana use in their PTSD patients. The VA/DoD PTSD Clinical Practice Guideline (2010) recommends providing evidence-based treatments for the individual disorders concurrently. PTSD providers should offer education about problems associated with long-term marijuana use and make a referral to a substance use disorder (SUD) specialist if they do not feel they have expertise in treating substance use.
Individuals with comorbid PTSD and SUD do not need to wait for a period of abstinence before addressing their PTSD. A growing number of studies demonstrate that that these patients can tolerate trauma-focused treatment and that these treatments do not worsen substance use outcomes. Therefore, providers have a range of options to help improve the lives of patients with the co-occurring disorders. For more information, see PTSD and Substance Use Disorders in Veterans.
References
http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/c o-occurring/marijuana_use_ptsd_veterans.asp.
Gatlin posted on 2016-09-07 19:41:17 Reply Private Reply
#51: U don't know me To: Deckard (#4)
You know that and I know that and soon a lot of other people are going to find this out.
U don't know me posted on 2016-09-07 21:11:07 Reply Private Reply
#52: tpaine To: redleghunter, y'all (#46)
Not quite. -- Technically speaking, I'm a Korean war vet, as I joined on Jan 31st, 1955.
Never saw Korea though, served two years in Munich, 56/58.
tpaine posted on 2016-09-08 00:31:49 Reply Private Reply
#53: tpaine To: nolu chan, and his progressive prohibitionist buddies (#48)
Never smoked much POT. -- Booze is my drug of choice, mainly single malts, red wine, and wheat beers.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness, -- free from prohibitionists who are afraid that someone, somewhere, is living large.
tpaine posted on 2016-09-08 00:45:16 Reply Private Reply
#54: ConservingFreedom To: nolu chan (#48)
Yup - liberty means it's none of your business nor government's what someone puts in their own body.
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-08 10:27:20 Reply Private Reply
#55: misterwhite To: ConservingFreedom (#54)
Legalizing all drugs for all citizens seems to violate that duty. And forcing citizens to care for those who put shit in their own body definitely does.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-08 10:50:09 Reply Private Reply
#56: tpaine To: misterwhite, hypocritical prohibitionist (#55)
Only to prohibitionists is there a 'government duty' to criminalize certain substances. -- Dangerous materials can be reasonably regulated without unconstitutional bans.
We agree on forcing citizens to care, yet you're FOR forcing citizens with prohibitions on drugs, guns, moral issues, etc.
Whatta hypocrite.
tpaine posted on 2016-09-08 11:18:25 Reply Private Reply
#57: ConservingFreedom To: misterwhite (#55)
How so? Certainly it's not a duty nor even a legitimate function of government to protect its citizens from themselves ... unless you want your diet and bedtime monitored.
Agreed. Including shit like tobacco or a steady diet of fast food.
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-08 17:13:20 Reply Private Reply
#58: misterwhite To: ConservingFreedom (#57)
It's not illegal to consume drugs. But if Congress wishes to regulate the interstate transportation of substances harmful to people, they have that power and that duty.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-08 19:31:26 Reply Private Reply
#59: Stoner To: Deckard (#36)
The Legion should be prepared for raids, tanks crashing through the walls, and Swat Teams storming in, with summary executions on the spot.
Stoner posted on 2016-09-08 20:05:51 Reply Private Reply
#60: tpaine To: misterwhite, prohibitionist, and proud of it. (#58)
Only to prohibitionists is there a 'government duty' to criminalize certain substances. -- Dangerous materials can be reasonably regulated without unconstitutional bans.
Congress has SEIZED that power, unconstitutionally. --- And it has turned us into a,nation of scofflaws, -- as all prohibitions do. -- Millions of citizens disregard our stupid 'laws' on guns, drugs, etc. -- And we all pay the price to hold them in jails.
tpaine posted on 2016-09-08 21:10:01 Reply Private Reply
#61: ConservingFreedom To: misterwhite (#58)
What they don't have is the authority to regulate intrastate commerce that they can't distinguish from interstate commerce - that turns the Constitutional limitation on its head.
Still no evidence for duty since the harm is voluntarily self-inflicted by the user.
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-08 22:54:10 Reply Private Reply
#62: misterwhite To: ConservingFreedom (#61)
The U.S. Supreme Court says they do. Are you saying the FAA doesn't have the power to regulate intrastate flights?
"Still no evidence for duty since the harm is voluntarily self-inflicted by the user."
If only that were true. But it's not.
misterwhite posted on 2016-09-09 11:05:15 Reply Private Reply
#63: ConservingFreedom To: misterwhite (#62)
LOL! They also say abortion and gay sex are Constitutionally protected rights.
Yes.
What harm of drugs is not voluntarily self-inflicted by the user?
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-09 11:13:48 Reply Private Reply
#64: nolu chan To: ConservingFreedom, misterwhite (#61)
Chief Justice John Marshall in Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 196-97 (1824):
- - - - - - - - - -
Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942)
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1942/1942_59/
- - - - - - - - - -
Gonzales v. Raich, sub nom. Ashcroft v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005)
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-09 17:53:28 Reply Private Reply
#65: ConservingFreedom To: nolu chan (#64)
You should have kept reading:
"This power is not only concurrent, but is limited in Congress. It does not extend to the regulation of the internal commerce of any State. This results from the terms used in the grant of power, [22 U.S. 1, 65] 'among the several States.' It results also from the effects of a contrary doctrine, on the whole mass of State power. Internal commerce must be that which is wholly carried on within the limits of a State: as where the commencement, progress, and termination of the voyage, are wholly confined to the territory of the State. This branch of power includes a vast range of State legislation, such as turnpike roads, toll bridges, exclusive rights to run stage wagons, auction licenses, licenses to retailers, and to hawkers and pedlers, ferries over navigable rivers and lakes, and all exclusive rights to carry goods and passengers, by land or water. All such laws must necessarily affect, to a great extent, the foreign trade, and that between the States, as well as the trade among the citizens of the same State. But, although these laws do thus affect trade and commerce with other States, Congress cannot interfere, as its power does not reach the regulation of internal trade, which resides exclusively in the States."
Yes, that's the ruling that, after FDR's court-packing threat, turned the Constitutional limitation on its head. Justice Thomas has rightly called it a "rootless and malleable" standard.
ConservingFreedom posted on 2016-09-09 21:52:00 Reply Private Reply
#66: nolu chan To: ConservingFreedom (#65)
You should read more.
In any case, the Supreme Court has spoken. The Court says what the law is. Potheads speak on internet boards. They say any damfool thing -- it is of no legal effect.
Chief Justice John Marshall in Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 196-97 (1824):
In 1824, the Court made clear that the commerce clause applied to activity that was "in any manner connected with commerce ... among the several states."
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In 1942, Wickard clearly stated, "At the beginning, Chief Justice Marshall described the federal commerce power with a breadth never yet exceeded," and proceeded to state lines of cases had served "to bring about a return to the principles first enunciated by Chief Justice Marshall in Gibbons v. Ogden. And Wickard also reminded that Gibbons observed of the commerce power that, "nature of this power by warning that effective restraints on its exercise must proceed from political, rather than from judicial, processes."
Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 119-22 (1942)
Wickard was a return to the power expressed in 1824.
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Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964) demonstrated that the commerce clause applied to places of public accomodation (diners, hotels that do not move) serving interstate travelers.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-10 00:25:50 Reply Private Reply
#67: Deckard To: nolu chan (#66)
The Supreme Court has also ruled that abortion and same-sex marriage are legal.
As much as cultists like you would like to believe it to be true, SCOTUS is not God.
Deckard posted on 2016-09-10 01:58:15 Reply Private Reply
#68: Gatlin To: Deckard, nolu chan (#67)
Conversely, God is not SCOTUS.
While there is biblical precedence for going against mans law to keep the laws of God, if you break man's law (commit a crime), you may go Jail and if you break God's law (commit a sin) you may go to Hell.
How you respond when SCOTUS says what the law is and that contradicts Gods law is strictly up to you. Realizing of course that just because God lets you off when you break his law it does not mean that you will escape man's punishment.
You must suffer the consequences for breaking mans laws.
Gatlin posted on 2016-09-10 06:04:03 Reply Private Reply
#69: tpaine To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#66)
There you go again: --- posting court opinions that DO NOT MAKE LAW. -- In fact, these opinions are under constitutional dispute.
Wannabe lawyers also 'speak on internet boards. They say any damfool thing -- it is of no legal effect.'
tpaine posted on 2016-09-12 08:01:53 Reply Private Reply
#70: tpaine To: Gatlin, Y'ALL (#68)
You must suffer the consequences for breaking mans laws, said King George, to those pesky American colonials.
He was wrong..
tpaine posted on 2016-09-12 08:09:38 Reply Private Reply
#71: nolu chan To: tpaine (#69)
When you or your fellow traveling crackpots win the dispute, please let me know.
"It is emphatically the duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 177 (1803). Good law for 213 years and counting, internet crackpots notwithstanding.
nolu chan posted on 2016-09-12 19:04:40 Reply Private Reply
#72: tpaine To: nolu chan (#71)
Trump is about to win, and with any luck, he will appoint constitutionalists to the SCOTUS, - men that will restore our rule of law.
And Marshall concluded by reaffirming that SCOTUS was bound by constitutional restraints. just like all other govt departments.
In his later years, Marshall's Barron opinion enabled the south to rationalize the civil war. Millions died.-- He is NOT a hero.
tpaine posted on 2016-09-12 20:03:39 Reply Private Reply