Okay, here it is. I find that Romans 13:1-7 makes it abundantly clear that God expects us to obey the laws of the government.

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.

The passage you cited has been abused by those in power for centuries, including the Nazi government.

Should We Obey Authority … No Matter What?

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security is coordinating with Christian ministers nationwide so that –if the government imposes MARTIAL LAW – the ministers will urge their flocks to OBEY the government.

A number of Christian leaders say that Christians must obey the government … no matter what. 

  For example, Robert Deffinbaugh – pastor at Community Bible Chapel in Richardson, Texas – says:

Whether the government be totalitarian or democratic, the Christian’s obligation to submit to it is the same.

This is not an unrealistic or abstract concept. After all, most churches in Nazi-era Germany supported the Nazis.    The German clergy used the same rationale to support Hitler that many American churches are using today to demand obedience to authority … Romans 13:

The German Christians were strongly nationalistic, and adopted … respect for state authority. This passage in Romans 13 was often cited as proof of a correlation between the Church and State:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists the what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

German church leaders even criticized Christians for disobeying their “governing authorities” … by protecting Jewish refugees by hiding them in their homes.

*****

Of course, spineless "Christians" like you will obediently turn over your firearms the day they become illegal to own, and I dare say you will turn in your neighbors who own guns because...you know - "The Law".

Those who fought for the independence from the British - they disobeyed "the law".

So did those who helped slaves escape and those who refused to move to the back of the bus.

Oh - just one more thing :

Romans 13 – Must Christians Submit to Government?

The Bible is filled with godly individuals who defied authority when they were commanded to do acts of evil. Daniel disobeyed Darius and went to the lions den. Moses’ parents hid him from Pharaoh as a baby. Rahab lied to protect the Hebrew spies.

Paul was constantly being jailed, beaten, and scourged because he would not stop preaching the Good News. Jesus himself also repeatedly defied the powerful political and religious leaders of his day. So much so, that Jesus finally got nailed to a Roman cross for it!

Sorry I could not get back to you sooner, I was listening to Trump's speech.

Do you hear it ... he was great, so presidential.

I felt like standing up and singing "God Bless America" when he finished.

I have to go now.

I recorded the speech ... I must listen to it again.

Later ...

I felt like standing up and singing "God Bless America" when he finished.

You can't sing.

Your denial is far worse that your ignorance.

Your urging Christians to lay down like sheep and obey government "no matter what" is blasphemous.

The Bible Urges Us to CHALLENGE – Not Obey – Bad Government

In reality, Christian (and Jewish) leaders throughout history have explained that we must disobey tyrannical governments.

The Book of Maccabees – an ancient Jewish book purporting to document the events which Chanukah celebrates – apparently says:

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.

(Thomas Jefferson agreed.)

Gordan Runyan – pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church – points out numerous instances in the Bible of men and women who disobeyed their government rulers, and were rewarded by God and praised as holy.

Indeed, the Bible mentions “justice” more than almost any other topic. The Bible demands that we do justice and to stand up to ANYONE — including the rich or powerful — who do injustice or oppress the people.

Baptist minister Chuck Baldwin writes:

Did John the Baptist violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God’s principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem?

Did Paul violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God’s principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority – even civil authority – is limited.

Any government that is a “terror to good works” is acting beyond its authority and must be resisted.

I felt like standing up and singing "God Bless America" when he finished.

You can't sing.

Apparently he can't read or comprehend facts either.

I don't know who said that first, but he ought to be shot.

"Politics makes strange bedfellows."

I don't know who said that first, but he ought to be shot.

Some say that any fellow who has another fellow in bed with him should be shot.

Some say that ...

What say you?

I felt like standing up and singing "God Bless America" when he finished.

You can't sing.

You FINALLY got something RIGHT, Fred.

I can't sing ... that is why I said I "felt" like it, but did not.

I am so proud of you ... I now have hope in the future for you.

You have a huge PERCEPTION problem.

Gotta go now ... I must listen to Trump's speech again.

If you believe all laws are moral, that there has never in the history of civilization been an immoral law, then fine.

Oh, I would not say there has never been an immoral law … for I have seen that done.

I only asked you to cite an example where quoting the Bible justifies obeying a law that is immoral … since I have never heard anyone do that.

And I would like to learn of an actual incident because I don’t entertain hypotheticals … reality in this world as it is, is vexing enough.

Reality in this world is vexing, right?

I only asked you to cite an example where quoting the Bible justifies obeying a law that is immoral … since I have never heard anyone do that.

Then apparently we agree that immoral laws should not be obeyed. In which case, the bible ref is of no relevance.

Gatlin (#19) --- I felt like standing up and singing "God Bless America" when he finished.

"Politics makes strange bedfellows."

I don't know who said that first, but he ought to be shot.

Some say that any fellow who has another fellow in bed with him should be shot. ---- Some say that ... What say you?

I'd say it's fine with me, -- but I doubt you'd say the same.

We live in a country where the Rule of Law is the legal principle that law should govern, as opposed to being governed by arbitrary decisions from individuals to do what they choose we can do, or not do.

Very odd and confused comment: ---

--- "We live in a country ---- opposed to being governed by arbitrary decisions from individuals to do what they choose we can do, or not do." ---

We live in a country where, --- arbitrary decisions from individuals choose - what -- we can do, or not do?

Are you 'all there'? -- As in cogent?

I'd say you're crazy as a loon.

We live in a country where, --- arbitrary decisions from individuals choose - what -- we can do, or not do?

True ... and this needs to change.

I'd say you're crazy as a loon.

I'd say that you don't know what you are talking about ... as usual.

It is no insult to be called crazy as a loon. If loons could hire a lawyer, they could sue for defamation of character anyone who uses the phrase “crazy as a loon. They are, in fact, very smart birds and have done very well in the never- ending struggle for existence with nature and man.

I only asked you to cite an example where quoting the Bible justifies obeying a law that is immoral … since I have never heard anyone do that.

Then apparently we agree that immoral laws should not be obeyed. In which case, the bible ref is of no relevance.

Of course, as a US Air Force officer, I was permitted under Section 16c(1)(c) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice to refuse to follow a general order or regulation that was contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it.

I could say that there is no "significant" bearing upon the point at hand. But, I could not rule out it being germane so as to imply "a fitness" for or appropriateness to the point.

Gatlin (#13) --- We live in a country where the Rule of Law is the legal principle that law should govern, as opposed to being governed by arbitrary decisions from individuals to do what they choose we can do, or not do.

Very odd and confused comment: ---

We live in a country where, --- arbitrary decisions from individuals choose - what -- we can do, or not do?

Are you 'all there'? -- As in cogent?

I'd say you're crazy as a loon.

True ... and this needs to change.

Even our Presidents, as individuals, cannot make such arbitrary decisions.

But perhaps you could cite an example, proving you're not Looney.

their
minions

to
another
country
of
their
liking
choosing

take
the
pc
facebooter
un
too

with
them

love
boris

Pinguinite (#28) (Edited) -- I only asked you to cite an example where quoting the Bible justifies obeying a law that is immoral … since I have never heard anyone do that.

Of course, as a US Air Force officer, I was permitted under Section 16c(1)(c) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice to refuse to follow a general order or regulation that was contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it. ---- I could say that there is no "significant" bearing upon the point at hand. ----- But, I could not rule out it being germane so as to imply "a fitness" for or appropriateness to the point. ----- Gatlin

Here again we see your 'Looney' reasoning, unbecoming to an officer in the US Air Force.

IF (big if) you indeed were ever an officer, or even in the air force.

IF (big if) you indeed were ever an officer, or even in the air force.

Man, that's a low blow.

I'm sure tater will show us his DD214.

Man, that's a low blow.

I have no problem believing that you and tpaine know how to blow low ...

IF (big if) you indeed were ever an officer, or even in the air force.

Man, that's a low blow. --- I'm sure tater will show us his DD214.

Gatty and I did this once before at LP, and he didn't show shit.

I hear he has a good falsetto when he sings for Trump tho..

gender
benders

freaks

love
boris

ps

toolcoolconservative
too

pss

canary
hack
attack
trolls

psss

obomba
outed
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freaks

bernie
will
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trains

I pulled out my DD214 about six years ago when I applied for a cemetery reservation.

Other than that, it stays in my black box.

Gatty and I did this once before at LP, and he didn't show shit.

Ahem ...

#70. To: tpaine, Goldi-Lox (#68)
So? When will you meet the terms of the challenge? I'm still waiting.
You are not waiting on me, the terms have long since been complied with to Goldi.
Gatlin posted on 2014-05-15

#91. To: tpaine (#80)
I have all of Gatlin's personal info.
But no one else can have access to it.
So, what's your point?
To make us jump thru your hoops?
Just a pain in the ass.
Yes.
That'd be you.
Goldi-Lox posted on 2014-05-18

#93. To: Goldi-Lox (#91)
I [Goldi] have all of Gatlin's personal info.
Wonderful. Glad to hear he's an honest man who is who he says he is …
[Boldness Added]
tpaine posted on 2014-05-18

I was listening to Trump's speech.

Have a link?

Man, that's a low blow. --- I'm sure tater will show us his DD214.

Gatty and I did this once before at LP, and he didn't show shit.

Well, I don't blame him. ---- I pulled out my DD214 about six years ago when I applied for a cemetery reservation. --- Other than that, it stays in my black box.

All I had when I signed up with VA heath care was my little pocket DD214. --- Surprisingly they pulled up a full sized copy in no time flat. --- Good luck if you as an individual try to get any more info out of records tho.

Gatty and I did this once before at LP, and he didn't show shit.

#70. To: tpaine, Goldi-Lox (#68)
So? When will you meet the terms of the challenge? I'm still waiting.
You are not waiting on me, the terms have long since been complied with to Goldi.
Gatlin posted on 2014-05-15

#91. To: tpaine (#80)
I have all of Gatlin's personal info.
But no one else can have access to it.
So, what's your point?
To make us jump thru your hoops?
Just a pain in the ass.
Yes.
That'd be you.
Goldi-Lox posted on 2014-05-18

#93. To: Goldi-Lox (#91)
I [Goldi] have all of Gatlin's personal info.
Wonderful. Glad to hear he's an honest man who is who he says he is …
tpaine posted on 2014-05-18

To: tpaine (#80) I have all of Gatlin's personal info. But no one else can have access to it. So, what's your point? To make us jump thru your hoops? Just a pain in the ass. Yes. That'd be you. Goldi-Lox posted on 2014-05-18

#93. To: Goldi-Lox (#91) I [Goldi] have all of Gatlin's personal info.

Wonderful. Glad to hear he's an honest man who is who he says he is … tpaine, tongue in cheek...

What did you expect me to say to a sick woman who was ready to ban me?

Never did find out how much it cost you to get her to post that.. Got honesty?

What did you expect me to say ...

I would have at one time expected you to be truthful and honorable.

But I no longer hold that expectation, since you have been blatantly exposed as a liar.

I now find it difficult and near impossible to associate with or post to anyone with such low character.

I would have at one time expected you to be truthful and honorable.

And I you, but that all changed when you took advantage of a dying confused old man, harrowup, and a dying woman, as above...

But I no longer hold that expectation, since you have been blatantly exposed as a liar.

All you exposed was your ability to get Goldie to say she had your info.. SHE DID NOT VERIFY THAT YOU WERE AN OFFICER IN OUR ARMED SERVICES.

I now find it difficult and near impossible to associate with or post to anyone with such low character.

Associate? How weird. -- But sure, don't post if that turns you on. --- You'll once again join the fine company of clowns who can't rationally debate, and hide behind the bozo.

Does Romans 13 say that YOU can decide which government and what laws are legitimate?

No, Deckard has made it abundantly clear that only a Paultard is capable of deciding that.

I'm sure tater will show us his DD214.

Basic training, North Korean Air Force. Spud scouts.

I was listening to Trump's speech.

Have a link?

I watched it live on TV ...

He was good and make his points clear.

Some gave him Hell afterwards because he mispronounced a couple of words. The little mouthy shit behind the podium in the news room led the charge ... as though he should say anything after Obama mispronounced "corpsman." You may remember that instead of pronouncing "korman" ... he called it "corpseman."

The only thing I observed is that someone need to tell Trump to hold his hands still. He can be animated in the board room, but it is distracting when he continually waved his hands on TV. Just my opinion.

I am sure you can find a transcript or a video on the Web ...

Seems to me that Romans 13 lays out the legitimate functions of government. Anything else maybe isn't legitimate government.

Paul lays it out this way:

“First (13:1) Paul states that every person is to be subject to the governing authorities, because God is the sovereign who ordains all human governments. Then (13:2) he draws the implication: If you resist government authority, which God has established, you are opposing God Himself and you’ll come under judgment. Then (13:3-4) Paul explains that the purpose of civil government is to protect law-abiding citizens and punish law-breakers. As such, the government is acting as a minister of God in avenging wrong. Thus (13:5) there are two reasons to be in subjection to the government: Fear of punishment and conscience before God, who has ordained the government. Finally (13:6-7), Paul applies it by showing why we should pay taxes, namely, because government officials are servants of God. Thus they deserve our taxes as well as our respect.”

Nowhere do I find where Paul said one could pick and choose which laws they want to follow or disobey, with one exception. He did say that you could resist government authority and the law could be disobeyed if they did not follow God’s law. Am I right on wrong on this?

Paul doesn’t go into specifics and what he does not say, and I think we all believe … is that if the government officials who are servants of God screw things up, then they should be removed from office. I fully expect that removal will start from the top down under Trump. GO TRUMP!!!

Does Romans 13 say that YOU can decide which government and what laws are legitimate?

Deckard has made it abundantly clear that only a Paultard is capable of deciding that.

Of course we can count on you to join with Gatlin and happily turn in all of your firearms when a law is passed making them illegal and also turning in those "lawbreakers" who do not willingly submit to the state and turn in their own firearms.

The "law is the law", right?

See - that's your problem, you and Gatlin.

You do not know the difference between a moral and an immoral law.

GO TRUMP!!!

Amen

Nowhere do I find where Paul said one could pick and choose which laws they want to follow or disobey, with one exception. He did say that you could resist government authority and the law could be disobeyed if they did not follow God’s law. Am I right on wrong on this?

I have already addressed this in a couple of posts, which you cowardly ran away from.

Should We Obey Authority … No Matter What?

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security is coordinating with Christian ministers nationwide so that –if the government imposes MARTIAL LAW – the ministers will urge their flocks to OBEY the government.

A number of Christian leaders say that Christians must obey the government … no matter what. 

  For example, Robert Deffinbaugh – pastor at Community Bible Chapel in Richardson, Texas – says:

Whether the government be totalitarian or democratic, the Christian’s obligation to submit to it is the same.

This is not an unrealistic or abstract concept. After all, most churches in Nazi-era Germany supported the Nazis.    The German clergy used the same rationale to support Hitler that many American churches are using today to demand obedience to authority … Romans 13:1-7

*****

Your urging Christians to lay down like sheep and obey government "no matter what" is blasphemous.

The Bible Urges Us to CHALLENGE – Not Obey – Bad Government

In reality, Christian (and Jewish) leaders throughout history have explained that we must disobey tyrannical governments.

The Book of Maccabees – an ancient Jewish book purporting to document the events which Chanukah celebrates – apparently says:

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.

(Thomas Jefferson agreed.)

Gordan Runyan – pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church – points out numerous instances in the Bible of men and women who disobeyed their government rulers, and were rewarded by God and praised as holy.

Indeed, the Bible mentions “justice” more than almost any other topic. The Bible demands that we do justice and to stand up to ANYONE — including the rich or powerful — who do injustice or oppress the people.

Baptist minister Chuck Baldwin writes:

Did John the Baptist violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God’s principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem?

Did Paul violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God’s principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority – even civil authority – is limited.

Any government that is a “terror to good works” is acting beyond its authority and must be resisted.

Gatlin - "Bow down to your corrupt rulers."

The "law is the law", right?

See - that's your problem, you and Gatlin.

You do not know the difference between a moral and an immoral law.

Look, dipshit, if anyone comes for my guns, as a government action, and as a rule of law of confiscation, then those coming to my residence will get the bullets first. If I do something illegal and there is a warrant for my arrest or I'm breaking laws inside my home... I'm surely not going to kill cops and then act stupid and portray myself as an innocent citizen and I don't know why my pitbull was shot for trying to chew off an officers arm.

Big difference between a mass government confiscation as a rule of law and being told you can't sing at a monument by a tool bag that was told he was wrong after his employers found out what he did.

Spin your YELLA BULLSHIT somewhere else. Don't waste my time, Paultard.

Nowhere do I find where Paul said one could pick and choose which laws they want to follow or disobey,

Wasn't it the law in Nazi Germany that Jews had to be gassed.

Just following orders.

Wasn't it the law in the United States that slavery was permitted.

Doesn't the Bible say not to murder people like the Germans did it World War II.

Doesn't the Bible say that taking men and enslaving them is wrong.

I know that there was slavery in the Bible. It was more of indentured servants than the slavery that was in America.

Book of Maccabees

Uh that isn't in the Bible.

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Book of Maccabees

Uh that isn't in the Bible.

Well... nah, I'm gonna skip this one.

Nowhere do I find where Paul said one could pick and choose which laws they want to follow or disobey,

Wasn't it the law in Nazi Germany that Jews had to be gassed.

Just following orders.

I will only take one of these, all others have the same relative answer.

Paul said that if the law (orders) conflicted with God's law, then it should not be obeyed.

The law (order) should not have been followed by Christians ...

The “I was just following orders” defense to charges of military atrocity and human rights violations were rejected in the Nuremberg trals, held by the Allies after WWII. This was a landmark decision in international law, as the denial of the superior orders defense confirms that responsibility runs to the individual even when the individual was acting on their orders.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery,

So should we honor gay marriage? It's the "law"? Or obey god and not commit adultry. Or claim that two men are married and that it is right and we should obey it because it is the "law"?