Your postings over the years (the only thing we can know you by) indicate you as a fake pastor, whose taken the mantle on oneself rather than been called. Nothing about you indicates christian. All you do is spout canned verbiage from someone else.

Not to be harsh, but this is the 'person' you have projected via your postings.

I'm sure your a nice guy tho.

What is ACP?

Your postings over the years (the only thing we can know you by) indicate you as a fake pastor, whose taken the mantle on oneself rather than been called. Nothing about you indicates christian. All you do is spout canned verbiage from someone else.

Not to be harsh, but this is the 'person' you have projected via your postings.

And what is your Scripture to support your accusation?

What is ACP?

Biff, if you don't know what ACP is, you obviously have not read much of what I have written, making your accusation even less valid.

First we are going to look at the only Scripturally defined method of being Born Again, for the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 3:3, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God! To often that sentence is ended with a period, it is and exclamation, it is a matter of fact, it is not arbitrary, it is an absolute, it means simply this, unless you are Born Again, as defined by Scripture, no matter how good a life you live, you are not even going to see the inside of heaven, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil and it's.

Just for those who are following from a remote location. Here is the entire passage Bob references from John chapter 3:(red letters indicate words of Jesus Christ)

John 3: KJV

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Nicodemus being a Rabbi of reknown would no doubt know the following Old Testament passages with regards to the conversation with Jesus Christ on Born Again. Jesus said "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?":

Ezekiel 36: KJV

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Psalm 51: KJV

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

The above are the OT and Gospel passages on spiritual regeneration. More to follow as this is also what the apostles taught in their epistles.

Bob, you've turned your mind off. You refuse to think.

This is not acceptable to anyone, least of all god.

And thou shalt love the lord your god with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind.

Bob, you've turned your mind off. You refuse to think.

This is not acceptable to anyone, least of all god.

Biff, I paraphrased John 3:3 as Jesus saying, Be Born Again or go to hell, am I wrong? If so, how?

You continue to make accusations yet you refuse to show me where I have erred in any of my published thoughts.

So, you claim to be a Born Again Christian?

IDM what you claim but what God knows about you.......period.....exclamation point.....end of story. It is only His call of out or safe at the Pearly Gates that counts.

Are you a Born Again Christian?

IDM what you claim but what God knows about you.......period.....exclamation point.....end of story. It is only His call of out or safe at the Pearly Gates that counts.

Where is your Scripture to support that? Has God not already decided? If not how do you explain predestination ?

Has God not already decided? If not how do you explain predestination ?

To the extent that there is no linearity of time for God as understood by man, i.e. He knows the past, present and future, you tell me?

If not how do you explain predestination?

I don't explain it. If everything was predestined then what is the purpose of God creating man to being with? If a man's fate is predestined then there is no such thing as free will.

While you are at it, please tell me why did God create and and the pyshical universe in which man resides?

IDM what you claim but what God knows about you.......period.....exclamation point.....end of story. It is only His call of out or safe at the Pearly Gates that counts.

Get some paper and pen SOSO

Yes, you're wrong. You're taking a snippet out of context. They weren't even discussing that.

I think Bob's point is within the context of the passage, chapter and conversion Jesus had with Nicodemus.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Who do you think he was talking about?

So, when one is BEGOTTEN again, one exchanges fathers for the Heavenly Father, who begets one anew with his spirit.

Hence the bit about "the wind blows where it wishes". Remember, wind and spirit are the same thing. God walked with Adam and Eve in "the breezy part of the day", which is to say, the time when his spirit was blowing in the garden.

Remember that the wind/spirit of God brooded over the waters in Genesis 1. Remember "Pneuma Hagion" - Holy Spirit, is Holy Breath, or Holy Wind.

Remember, God blew breath/wind/spirit into Adam's nostrils, and he became a breather, a nephesh, a "living soul".

When you are begotten again, the Father's spirit comes upon you and he becomes your Father in Heaven (and you are released from your father, Satan, of the earth).

What made Jesus unique is that he was begotten of the Father AND of a woman - so, he was begotten in the FLESH as well as the spirit. The Father is the father of all of us, by the spirit, but Jesus was the "only begotten" in a fleshly, biological sense, because he was also begotten by Mary, a human woman. (If it weren't God doing the begetting, Jesus would be a Nephil.)

It defies logic that what a physical brain decides, in good faith, is truth would determine the eternal fate of the connected soul. If God is all powerful and all wise, and all loving, surely he could come up with a better plan for his children than portrayed with the "believe this or burn forever" model.

Under the Michael Newton theological model, one's academic theology is of little importance. Further, life along with all it's tragedy and joy, along with the universe we live in serve a very pragmatic purpose. On both of these points the Newton model works much better. There's more love from God, and more purpose to life, just as much accountability, and complete free will.

Remember that the wind/spirit of God brooded over the waters in Genesis 1. Remember "Pneuma Hagion" - Holy Spirit, is Holy Breath, or Holy Wind.

Remember, God blew breath/wind/spirit into Adam's nostrils, and he became a breather, a nephesh, a "living soul".

When you are begotten again, the Father's spirit comes upon you and he becomes your Father in Heaven (and you are released from your father, Satan, of the earth).

Excellent points. It's right there in front of Nicodemus as he knew the very scriptures Christ was pointing him to.

Nicodemus says, we (the pharisees) 'know' or 'perceive' you are from god because blah, blah, blah.

And jesus says, Unless you've had god's spirit renew you, you can not 'perceive' or 'know' anything about god's kingdom.

Nicodemus didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

So jesus gave him some more.

And nicodemus says, how can these things be? Or what the heck are you talking about?

And jesus says, you're a master of Israel and you don't know these things?

Really, quite an interesting conversation. Note, to translate all this as 'be born again or go to hell' is laughable.

Also, get vicomte to explain how from verse 13 on, it's john speaking, not red letter jesus. That's quite interesting too.

Has God not already decided? If not how do you explain predestination ?

To the extent that there is no linearity of time for God as understood by man, i.e. He knows the past, present and future, you tell me?

If not how do you explain predestination?

I don't explain it. If everything was predestined then what is the purpose of God creating man to being with? If a man's fate is predestined then there is no such thing as free will.

While you are at it, please tell me why did God create and and the pyshical universe in which man resides?

I think if you spent a bit more time in Bible study you might find your answers.

My only goal now is to show Scripturally, what one must do to be Born again.

Until you answer that, we have nothing else to discuss, you are certainly welcome to read what I post, but none of your comments will be addressed till you answer that question and if you say yes, then the question of what did you do to get Saved.

Titus 3:10

It defies logic that what a physical brain decides, in good faith, is truth would determine the eternal fate of the connected soul. If God is all powerful and all wise, and all loving, surely he could come up with a better plan for his children than portrayed with the "believe this or burn forever" model.

God's plan of salvation is so easy, so straight forward and so absolute so as to allow no one to say it is unfair.

It is the only plan that allows a quadrapalegic that can move no part of his or her body, not even eye lids, to get saved It allows a man or woman, boy or girl any where in the world to do it. It cost no money and requires nothing in return that even the poorest wrench or most powerful multi billionaire cannot afford to do.

And you say it defies logic? Tell me what about the simple requirement that you must be born again, defies logic? Do you know what Born Again is?

But nicodemus had no clue about spiritual matters. That's what jesus is trying to tell him.

Nicodemus says, we (the pharisees) 'know' or 'perceive' you are from god because blah, blah, blah.

And jesus says, Unless you've had god's spirit renew you, you can not 'perceive' or 'know' anything about god's kingdom.

Nicodemus didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

So jesus gave him some more.

And nicodemus says, how can these things be? Or what the heck are you talking about?

And jesus says, you're a master of Israel and you don't know these things?

Really, quite an interesting conversation. Note, to translate all this as 'be born again or go to hell' is laughable.

Also, get vicomte to explain how from verse 13 on, it's john speaking, not red letter jesus. That's quite interesting too.

Well I have to say you boil it down good.

From verse 13 on? I remember that discussion with Vic back here a few years ago. From what I remember, Vic was not dogmatic in his view nor did he downgrade the inspired nature of the text.

However, you missed one part of the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

What happens to folks who don't get to see the kingdom of God? That is explained in verses 13-21 and beyond. Not to mention in all 4 gospels.

God's plan of salvation is so easy, so straight forward and so absolute so as to allow no one to say it is unfair.

. . . .

And you say it defies logic? Tell me what about the simple requirement that you must be born again, defies logic? Do you know what Born Again is?

I am indeed familiar with the christian concept of being born again.

The theology of christian salvation is indeed straight forward. What is illogical is that God would have created a master plan that would have required salvation from eternal damnation, thereby resulting in so many of his beloved children to end up in a pit of eternal pain for all eternity.

Even earthly parents love their children so much that no matter how horrible the crimes they commit, they never give up on them. And we are to believe God would love his children less than the amount mortal parents love theirs?

Or if we are to believe that he does indeed love us eternally, that he actually loves his master plan more? Or perhaps that he is bound by his own nature and cannot help but let his kids burn forever, which flies in the face of being "all powerful"?

It is this point which defies logic. If God is indeed all-powerful, all knowing and all wise, then surely he could have come up with a better plan than this.

And I believe he did.

As to what happens to those who can't see the kingdom of god, they're blind ... Until they can see. Which we and others can help with. But screaming at people that they are going to burn doesn't help any one.

And that's not what was jesus was doing, in john 3 or any where.

Do you think people loved him and were fascinated by him because of threats? And perhaps he even had the right and position to threaten. But we don't.

And that's not what was jesus was doing, in john 3 or any where.

Do you think people loved him and were fascinated by him because of threats? And perhaps he even had the right and position to threaten. But we don't.

John chapter 1 tells us the following:

John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.(KJV)

Then this from John 3:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.(KJV)

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees ...

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Tannen out.

The laws and religion of man can be burdensome.

A most appropriate entry.

The laws and religion of man can be burdensome.

Is it God's command on us to have the laws and religion of man be in perfect harmony with each other? Jesus clearly understood that He lived in a world of manmade laws to which there would be consequences if He did not obey. From what we can tell He obeyed most, if not all of them. Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same? Did He not tell slaves to obey their human masters? No doubt He was perfectly clear that when man's law was in conflict with God's law the latter was to obeyed over the former. And He preached charity but on an individual basis not on the state. He willfully subjected Himself to the law of man knowing full well that it would cost Him his human life.

Ever society has struggled with less than perfect success to have its moral precepts reflected in its laws. Islam may come closest to achieving this than any western society but I don't know enough about that religion to express a well informed opinion.

For sure, in all western societies some things that are religiously moral are illegal and some that are legal are religiously immoral.

They were so into their man-made rules that one each Nicodemus could not see the forest for the trees. I know that is idiomatic.

My point was in response to the burdensome practices of the Pharisees.

OK, so what about my point?

OK, so what about my point?

Off subject.

Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same?

I thought he said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods.

Now, Biff, one day you will be in the very same position, as will all, for all will one day face the prospect of imminent if not immediate death, I wonder how you will face that prospect.

Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same?

I thought he said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods.

Yes, He did.

The theology of christian salvation is indeed straight forward. What is illogical is that God would have created a master plan that would have required salvation from eternal damnation, thereby resulting in so many of his beloved children to end up in a pit of eternal pain for all eternity.

Are you saying that it is wrong for the Creator to have rules? Did you not have any rules for yur kids as they grew up?

But, God does have rules, and His single biggest rule is "Unless you are Born Again, you will not see the kingdom of heaven" John 3:3, now, whether you like the rule or not isn't important, there are lots of rules of man I hate, but must, unless I want to pay the fine of penalty, obey, God's rule is the same, it is not dependent upon your liking it for it to be in force.

Did He not pay taxes when due and urge others to do the same? I thought he said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is Gods.

Yes, He did.

I've read that that isn't the same as Jesus saying to pay your taxes.

facing death

I hope you stick around for a while Bob. I wish you good health.

I've always hoped i would face it like my grandfather did, calmly and peacefully without any particular alarm or upset. Not screaming and all panicked like the passengers in the car he was driving.

Your grandfather was probably a Born Again Christian, for knowing where you are going and what awaits you on the other side is restricted to those of us who have freely given our lives to Christ.

I too hope you can face death like that.

I hope you stick around for a while Bob. I wish you good health.

Me too, thanks.

Facing death as a 20 year old Marine is nothing compared to facing it as a 70 year old. At 20 I was convinced that nothing could kill me, at 70 I realize I have one foot in the grave an the other on a banana peel at the best of times.

Facing death at 70 makes on realize and confess that there is a God and that judgement is inevitable. A Pastor friend from Maine sent me JAKE'S FORTUNE, a novel by Ray Comfort, in it is the best description of what I felt facing death. Ray's description is unbelievably accurate. I would urge everyone, especially Christians, to read it.

Thanks for this site A K A Stone,

Bob

Are you saying that it is wrong for the Creator to have rules? Did you not have any rules for yur kids as they grew up?

It's not a question of liking or not liking the rules. It's a question of what the rules are. It's a question of how things really work. There's the Christian model which involves judgement on what we believed, or the model based on Michael Newton's work, corroborated by thousands through past life recall, which says our harshest (and only) judge will be our very selves, when we understand with much amplified conviction those whom we've harmed and those we've helped and (more to the point) the things we have learned and how we've progressed spiritually. It's a place where love surpasses all earthly deeds in enormous measure, fitting in a way the bible talks about but frankly fails to demonstrate. To a measure far beyond what one is even capable of expecting of a truly Majestic God.

To have an eternal soul condemned for all eternity in a pit of fire over academic knowledge is simply not what an all powerful, all loving God would see fit to do to his children.

I read of your health situation in post #42. I wish you the best. I believe though that the day you/we die, will be the happiest day of our lives, because it's the day we *return* home, the place we came from. Earth is not home, and never has been.

I've always hoped i would face it like my grandfather did, calmly and peacefully without any particular alarm or upset.

I look at death as a promise of relief from all the messes and stupidity my supposedly fellow human beings inflict upon me.

Bob old friend, I sincerely hope you are doing well! I pray for your good health and longevity! God Speed my friend !!

Thanks my friend,

Bob

I believe though that the day you/we die, will be the happiest day of our lives, because it's the day we *return* home, the place we came from. Earth is not home, and never has been.

You sound as if you have given your life to Christ, if not, what do you base you believe on?

"To have an eternal soul condemned for all eternity in a pit of fire over academic knowledge is simply not what an all powerful, all loving God would see fit to do to his children".

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us-- after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences. Across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people-- only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood…

In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.

SOURCE

I've read that that isn't the same as Jesus saying to pay your taxes.

Well, yeah, there's a lot of that going around these days:)

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us-- after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences. Across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people-- only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood…

In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.

Thank you, all of that is so very, very true.

Thank you, all of that is so very, very true.

You're welcome.

i just wish someone got that joke I stole.

I think most get Biff, but in the real world, there are some folk who grapple with that very joke almost everyday....

But I still think it's funny...lol

The God of Creation, the One and only God gave His Name, YHWH. The Name confirmed by His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach.

That is the Great I AM who came in Word and Power.

Frankly when Newton walks on water and feeds thousands with a few fish and loaves of bread post it here.

You sound as if you have given your life to Christ, if not, what do you base you believe on?

A combination of things.

1) The works of Dr. Michael Newton, in whose books he has presented a portrait of the spirit world and how it relates to our lives here on earth, all information gleaned from his clients while under deep hypnosis;

2) Books by Brian Weiss in a similar field as Newton, who's information corroborates Newton's completely even though neither of these authors refer to each others work (Though I've not yet read all of Weiss's books so can't swear to that....)

3) Contemporary accounts of reincarnation, and some near death experiences, which corroborate both Newton and Weiss. Accounts of child prodigies, some, most or potentially all claims of paranormal events, as well as "miraculous" healings and even out-of-body experiences have a reasonable explanation.

4) That all this information presents a theology that is, as far as I can see, perfect in form as it provides a great many answers to issues that Christianity does not answer well: Why there is suffering, pain and tragedy; Why life isn't fair (it is, even for those born with physical deformities and those who die at even young ages); Why we are special and different from animals, even if we share the same life tree via evolution; How souls come into existence...

5) No conflict with science in terms of universal origin and age, origins of life & evolution, or the theological problem of the potential for life, -- particularly intelligent life -- existing elsewhere in the cosmos.

6) On a personal level, it explains my own experiences in life. Everything falls into place with this model. Theology, philosophy, science, morality... everything falls into place in a very beautiful way. As I mentioned, the love is better, zero condemnation from God, endless patience, full free will and yet with full accountability.

I could post links to youtubes, but I'm not sure there's much point. I don't see it as particularly important that anyone change their views, and I sense that many on this forum aren't about to do so any time soon. But that's okay. I do discuss it because I find the subject fascinating, and the view of the world and the universe is very beautiful from where I sit now, and I'd like to share it if I could.

My best....

One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

The explanations you provided are not too unreasonable, but they are not very good either.

You say we have a choice to choose Jesus. But only during a life that could span anywhere from a few minutes to 100 years. I've raised the point in another thread. At what age is one able to make such a decision? Very young children sometimes die. Were their brains ever developed enough to reach that obtuse level of lucidity to make that eternal decision to accept Jesus or not? Should a child who dies in an earthquake 5 minutes after committing a first sin by eating a cookie out of the cookie jar against the parent's command spend eternity in hell? I'm told there are explanations to cover this kind of thing with kids, but even with such explanations, the issue remains a messy one. Then there are those who never had the chance to hear the gospel. Should they be condemned because a Christian failed to obey a command to tell them about Jesus? In order for there to be true justice, some theological tool needs to be created to cover it, maybe something like "God in his wisdom knew they wouldn't have chosen Jesus anyway" so that makes it okay for them to go to hell without actually having been given an actual choice for eternal life.

Theologically, it's messy.

God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell

Except for the fact that he created hell.... Or perhaps, one might argue, he didn't create it. Maybe sinners created it on their own. In which case he allowed it to be created. Being he is all-powerful, it's kinda hard to say he had nothing to do with it's creation. It's a messy concept.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there.

The parable of the sheep and the goats seems particularly clear on the point of God / Jesus condemning those labeled goats. It's not a parable about sinners fleeing the love and grace of God by any stretch.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Implies that people lack souls until they accept Jesus? People are made into the image of God retroactively upon being saved? If we are not children of God until we are saved, then we are no different from animals before being saved. Why not save animals too. Or why bother saving anyone. Why would Jesus need to come and die to save people that are not children of God? Sorry, but this is, again, messy, messy theology.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. SNIP/

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective. Suffering, hardship and tragedy challenge us to make us spiritually stronger. They are not the "fruits of sin", but rather the whole reason we are here. To face such things and try to rise above them. To love others and keep our chins high in spite of whatever horrible things comes our way. Would you not agree that the ability to rise above such misfortune is a sign of a strong, powerful soul? That the greater one is able to rise above deeper chasms of darkness and despair, the more awe inspiring it is?

Does the God you invoke through Newton have a name?

I'm not doing any invoking, but there is no name is given.

Frankly when Newton walks on water and feeds thousands with a few fish and loaves of bread post it here.

If he did, and I did, would you believe it?

I'd venture the answer is "no". Your mind is closed. But that's okay. I wish you well.

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective.

Is this Michael Newton you speak of, is he an ordained minister, attorney and emergency medicine physician?

Should a child who dies in an earthquake 5 minutes after committing a first sin by eating a cookie out of the cookie jar against the parent's command spend eternity in hell? I'm told there are explanations to cover this kind of thing with kids, but even with such explanations, the issue remains a messy one.

By "messy" do you mean, "insuffiently unanswerable with any kind of certainty"?

How can the wisdom and justice from God even be questioned OR answered sufficiently? It can't. His justice is...perfect. It doesn't get any better or more fair than that. In this world, of course "fairness" often appears lopsided, but that's without seeing the End Game.

Christianity pretty much only has negative things to say about suffering and hardship on earth, but in the portrait of the world presented by Newton gives a refreshingly different perspective.

Christianity and scripture pretty much assure man that suffering and hardship are inevitable. Scripture also lends wisdom, instruction, purpose and hope to deal with the inevitable.

What do you find "refreshing" about Newton's philosophy in dealing with death and suffering? And how could one trust his word on his version or portrait of "The truth"? I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

Is this Michael Newton you speak of, is he an ordained minister, attorney and emergency medicine physician?

No. He is a now a retired hypnotherapist. He began his practice doing conventional hypnotherapy to help people to lose weight, quit smoking and resolve issues from forgotten/repressed traumatic childhood events and things of that nature, but moved into the unconventional field past life and between life regression after a few clients "accidentally" regressed to such areas and only then obtained the healing results they sought after doing so.

He was an atheist during the years of his conventional practice but was forced to accept we are more than flesh and blood as he saw more and more cases of past life regression accounts. He took the scientific course of remaining unbiased as possible by restricting his information sources to only his clients, avoiding the work of others, such as reading books and attending conferences on the subject. Each of his books contain many dozens of direct excerpts of sessions he's had with clients "case studies" each which illustrates a point or aspect of the spirit world and/or who and what we are.

Newton claims to have regressed as many as 7000 clients in his career, and says that regardless of the culture, religion (including atheists) or background of the clients, the information he got was extremely consistent. He also claims he does not ask leading questions of his clients ("do you see such and so?"), but made it his practice to ask open ended questions ("what do you see?") in an effort to be as scientifically neutral as possible in his work, and it is the overwhelming consistency of the information he obtained which made him conclude both that reincarnation is a real phenomenon and a spirit world exists.

Even though he's authored 4 books on the subject, searches on the web to find if anyone has accused Newton of being a fraud turn up nothing.

I personally found his information corroborating and explaining just about everything that I've experienced and wondered about in my personal life. In my view, Newton's information provides answers and explains mysteries far, far better any other information source, including Christianity or the bible has or does. I cannot in good conscience ignore that.

By "messy" do you mean, "insuffiently unanswerable with any kind of certainty"?

Theology is messy when it has characteristics that would seem to need "fixing" through the invention of bandaids in order to make the whole thing work reasonably. An example I frequently cite is the question of at what age someone is capable of committing a first sin. Would a new-born baby dying at 1 hour of age go to hell because he didn't accept Jesus, or heaven because they clearly didn't have any opportunity to commit any sin? Assuming it's heaven, then what about dying at age 2? 3? 4? 6? Clearly, the comprehension of the consequences of actions grows slowly as children grow up, and suggesting there is a fixed level of understanding that marks the black/white point of accountability for acts of sin is, well, messy, because it applies a litmus test of salvation to an understanding of Jesus that can vary in degree in several different ways. And that's not even addressing cases of people who have mental handicaps. Some people are mildly handicapped, others severely so. On another thread someone suggested an age of 12 or 13 which was a formal age of spiritual accountability in some way but.... I just see it as "messy" theology that doesn't exist with Newton's portrait of how things work.

How can the wisdom and justice from God even be questioned OR answered sufficiently? It can't. His justice is...perfect. It doesn't get any better or more fair than that. In this world, of course "fairness" often appears lopsided, but that's without seeing the End Game.

Many times the Christian answer to things like "why did my child have to die" or "why did I have to be hit by a car and now be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life" are answered in such ways as "Only God in his great wisdom knows the answers to this". Newton, however, provides much more pragmatic answers that make complete sense, such as "Your child died because you need to learn to accept such tragedy without taking it out on your wife, children or your friends. You need to learn to continue to be a loving father, husband and helpful friend to those around you and not resort to self-pity, bitterness and jealousy toward those who have children, like you've done on your last several lives when this happened". Or "you are now in a wheelchair because you need to learn to accept charitable love from those who care about you, because you have been too arrogant about your own strengths in past lives where you have flaunted the strength of your physical body". Or perhaps "You are in a wheelchair so you can better learn to use your great spiritual abilities to befriend and help others through conversing with them or helping others by writing books. This way your body won't be a distraction".

What do you find "refreshing" about Newton's philosophy in dealing with death and suffering? And how could one trust his word on his version or portrait of "The truth"? I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

For me, it's not a case of simply taking Newton's word. It's a case of his information corroborating my own experiences, presenting a "clean" theology that not only works well without the need of theological "band-aids", but also works perfectly fine with the current scientific fields in areas of biology, cosmology, as well as ethics and morality. It also corroborates present day accounts of reincarnation, as well as psychological matters of phobias and even parapsychological issues of premonitions, out-of-body experiences, deja vu, child prodigies, even ghosts. In my view, biblical Christianity doesn't come close to providing the answers to contemporary issues and mysteries that Newton does.

I think what people are seeking is...a valid Authority and End Game. Who or what would this be according to Newton? Is it trackable? Does Newton believe there's a genesis or original Creator?

This is too big a question to answer here. I must refer you to his books. I will say though that reincarnation does not happen simply for the purpose of happening. Souls are created on a continuing basis, and we have a first earth life (there are those today on their first life as well as their final life), and we freely choose to return here with each life for a specific purpose(s) or lesson(s), all to improve spiritually. Every life is chosen freely, knowing the circumstances we enter into, so life is always completely fair. We eventually do reach a point where we stop incarnating, when further earthly incarnations are of insufficient value for spiritual development. Thereafter we continue developing in a role that includes guiding lessor developed (younger) souls.

The concept of reincarnation usually strikes people as completely crazy when they first hear of it because it isn't compatible with their current assumptions of whatever sort. As a kid I remember my dad commenting in response to someone on TV espousing reincarnation: "how do you explain the rising population of earth?" (a point I agreed with at the time). But this issue and others are all covered. If one is willing to reconsider long held assumptions about life, then reincarnation can make complete sense. But I do not hold it against anyone for not wanting to consider it, or considering it and discounting it.

Theology is messy when it has characteristics that would seem to need "fixing" through the invention of bandaids in order to make the whole thing work reasonably. An example I frequently cite is the question of at what age someone is capable of committing a first sin. Would a new-born baby dying at 1 hour of age go to hell because he didn't accept Jesus, or heaven because they clearly didn't have any opportunity to commit any sin? Assuming it's heaven, then what about dying at age 2? 3? 4? 6? Clearly, the comprehension of the consequences of actions grows slowly as children grow up, and suggesting there is a fixed level of understanding that marks the black/white point of accountability for acts of sin is, well, messy, because it applies a litmus test of salvation to an understanding of Jesus that can vary in degree in several different ways. And that's not even addressing cases of people who have mental handicaps. Some people are mildly handicapped, others severely so. On another thread someone suggested an age of 12 or 13 which was a formal age of spiritual accountability in some way but.... I just see it as "messy" theology that doesn't exist with Newton's portrait of how things work.

That's when the entry point or presupposition is based on babies possibly sinniing instead of God's Grace.

This baby issue may be an issue for you and many others. It is not an issue for God.

That's when the entry point or presupposition is based on babies possibly sinniing instead of God's Grace.

This baby issue may be an issue for you and many others. It is not an issue for God.

Babies and the young who can't know better, don't know better are still covered under God's grace. I realize a lot of the so-called "messy" stuff regarding "sin" comes from Catholic teachings, so naturally a lot of unnecessary confusion, resentment, and hostility toward an "unfair" God arises as a result.

At what point and to what extent God first holds someone responsible can't be measured chronologically, but we can be sure that any "fixed level" of accountability is measured fairly, AND with consideration to environmental factors, etal factors.

As to the mentally handicapped, again, only God can judge (as a matter of knowing their heart.)

(I'll catch up to you Peng on your other notations...)

Babies and the young who can't know better, don't know better are still covered under God's grace. I realize a lot of the so-called "messy" stuff regarding "sin" comes from Catholic teachings, so naturally a lot of unnecessary confusion, resentment, and hostility toward an "unfair" God arises as a result.

At what point and to what extent God first holds someone responsible can't be measured chronologically, but we can be sure that any "fixed level" of accountability is measured fairly, AND with consideration to environmental factors, etal factors.

Where is your scripture for this?

What is Newton's work with "Life Between Lives (LBL)® Hypnotherapy"? (from Newton's site):

"A deep hypnotic process, developed over many years, designed to reconnect you with your soul self, your guiding beings and thereby awaken an understanding of your immortal identity."

Newton is awfully presumptive in his premise, isn't he?

According to Newton, man's natural state of consciousness and sentience buries the "connection with your soul." Not only that, but only upon succumbing to his technique of deep hypnosis is man "awakened" with an understanding of our very "identity." What certainty is there in his subjective claims here? "Research"? By what authority does he claim to know "The Truth"? How does he, his subjects, as well as believers know for sure that these "awakenings" isn't actually implanted memories through the power of suggestion, or spiritual demons masquerading as "past lives"?

‘A deep hypnotic process’ … the achievement of complete physical relaxation, guided by suggestions given by the therapist but created entirely by the client, in which awareness is altered and the subconscious and even higher levels of the mind can be accessed

"Awareness" and reality is altered, the subconscious accessed and relinquished, completely opening the subject to power of "suggestion." Drugs and alcohol ironically happen to accomplish the same without a skilled hypnotist. In all cases it's a dangerous game Mr. Newton plays. There is good reason that God has created a firewall to our normal consciousness. Because people like Newton are attempting to re-program them.

‘Developed over many years’ … The Newton Method of LBL Hypnotherapy is the result of more than 25 years of initial research by Michael Newton with over 7,000 of his clients – research that continues to build via TNI [The Newton Institute], the organisation he developed to continue his work

‘Designed to reconnect you with your soul self’ … each of us is so much more than the physical aspect we can see. We are a combination of the energies, experiences and learnings of countless previous lives; each life a set of contrasting experiences that embody the variety of lessons our inner, eternal self seeks to learn in its quest for development and perfection. That core, eternal self, always searching for growth and new levels of understanding, is our soul self…

Attainment of "perfection"? "eternal self"? Would those terms happen to confer a "God-like" self hidden within the rabbit-hole of the "self -- if only some shaman like Michael Newton was able to extract it?

Newton can provide no proof of the theory reincarnation or karma, but let's assume the premise that past lives along with all past "experiences and lessons" are able to be extracted. Is mere recall and understanding confer any such penance or universal forgiveness? Who is the arbiter of such "lessons"? Newton? A blue-ribbon panel of from his TNI? The sins of several lives have already been committed and accrued. Who or what has paid the price for those sins? What of the current life with its current running tab of sins? Who pays for those? Someone in the next life ? (who must hope he/she meets a disciple of Michael Newton?

‘Your guiding beings’ … Michael Newton’s research enabled him to assemble a model of the spiritual realm. He documented consistent reports from thousands of clients of the existence and incredible support offered by countless Higher Beings in the inter-life; personal guides and teachers, all ready to guide each one of us through and between each life. Wisdom and insights you can now access through LBL Hypnotherapy…

I'd also submit that Newton's realm IS "an assembled model" of the spiritual realm. Unfortunately, it's a realm that is based on deception and lies. Not that I don't believe in "personal guides and teachers" from both within this world as well as the metaphysical spirit world -- I do. They just happen to be working for the "other team." Without our spiritual sentry guarding the gates of consciousness, the obvious danger of hypnotism is invasion of unwanted malevolent spirits with a free run at our mind and soul, and possible hijacking.

‘Awaken an understanding of your immortal identity’ … enlightenment, a more complete perception of who you really are as the sum total of your past lives, the collaboration of your soul with other souls and with its guides and teachers, and what you are learning now. A sense of the eternity of the soul…and an end to the fear of physical death…

Nothing new under the sun here; Newton is selling an escape from the judgement of God...because according to his institute of so-called enlightenment, we are our own God. Eternal punishment is erased from the equation. The tenets of Gospel with Salvation thru Christ is not needed. Forgiveness a personal matter of self-atonement and self-love, as well as and self-anointing of grace. All based on this regression of past lives and digging deep to "know" and reveal the inner god-self. Wrapped up in a neat, simplistic package. No "messes" here.

If there's something I've missed in my assesment, please do correct me.

Where is your scripture for this?

For what specifically, Bob?

Newton is awfully presumptive in his premise, isn't he?

"Presumptive" means based on unsupported facts or beliefs. On it's face, the statement you're referring to IS "developed over many years" with clients while under hypnosis, so it not based on presumption.

According to Newton, man's natural state of consciousness and sentience buries the "connection with your soul." Not only that, but only upon succumbing to his technique of deep hypnosis is man "awakened" with an understanding of our very "identity." What certainty is there in his subjective claims here? "Research"? By what authority does he claim to know "The Truth"? How does he, his subjects, as well as believers know for sure that these "awakenings" isn't actually implanted memories through the power of suggestion, or spiritual demons masquerading as "past lives"?

First, people do not "succumb" to hypnosis. Unwilling subjects simply won't be hypnotized. Second, he doesn't claim to know "the truth" per se. He has only presented things he has discovered in his work, and is reasonably objective. For example, in one interview, he was asked about demons and hell. He does not categorical state they do not exist. Rather, he states that he has seen no evidence of such things in any of the work he has done, and presents his own theory (and emphasizes it is his theory) as to why some people who have near death experiences relate seeing images of hell and such (he says the physical trauma associated with most NDE's, combined with mental conditioning, are the reason some people think they have seen such things). Whether true or not is another topic, but my point is, Newton with such an answer demonstrates an attitude of balance and fair reason with regards to his work.

If power of suggestion were an explanation, then we wouldn't expect to see such consistent information from many thousands of clients from all walks of life, including diverse religions, nationalities and cultures. Sure you can just claim he must have done this suggesting himself, but he denies asking leading questions in his work... I.e. he asks "what do you see?" not "Do you see (whatever)?".

How does he know demons are not feeding lies to him through clients that are under hypnosis? He doesn't. That is an objective possibility, and in my view about the only possibility a strict bible believing Christian can cling to in claiming there is no truth to Newton's work.

"Awareness" and reality is altered, the subconscious accessed and relinquished, completely opening the subject to power of "suggestion." Drugs and alcohol ironically happen to accomplish the same without a skilled hypnotist. In all cases it's a dangerous game Mr. Newton plays. There is good reason that God has created a firewall to our normal consciousness. Because people like Newton are attempting to re-program them.

Reality is not altered. Drugs and alcohol (another drug) do alter one's mental state, but 7000 drunk people won't agree on a whole lot of things about the afterlife. I'm guessing you don't know much about hypnosis, but are simply stereotyping it with your own bias and then discounting it. I state that respectfully. Mild hypnosis is a common thing all of us are familiar with, like in such times when we drive home from work, get out of the car, and then realize we have no real memory of the trip. Meditation can be classed as another mild form of hypnosis, as could deep prayer and the effects of fasting.

Newton can provide no proof of the theory reincarnation or karma,

He can provide evidence in support of reincarnation. Proof is a higher level, and one that no religion has ever obtained (otherwise there wouldn't be so many around today).

but let's assume the premise that past lives along with all past "experiences and lessons" are able to be extracted. Is mere recall and understanding confer any such penance or universal forgiveness? Who is the arbiter of such "lessons"?

In the spirit world, passion for one's short comings and successes in earthly lives appear to be greatly amplified without the substantial interference of the human mind. You yourself will be acutely aware of how you lived, where you succeeded and where you failed, who you hurt and who you helped, and this knowledge is known to guides and "elders" as some have referred to them. But they are not "arbiters". You must understand you are bringing to this discussion a preconceived idea that any true model of the spirit world must have atonement for sin as an element. But the model presented by Newton simply does not have that. There is no "sin" that must be washed away through a perfect blood sacrifice, thus creating a litmus test of salvation on judgement day.

What of the current life with its current running tab of sins? Who pays for those? Someone in the next life?

There is some similarity in the concept of karma and sin. Both hold that ill deeds need to be paid for through a form of suffering. Karma would state that one who commits evil acts, great or small, in one life is due to return in another life and suffer as a victim in the same way he harmed in a prior life. I think that idea is pretty widespread in Hindu culture, which of course believes in reincarnation.

What Newton says is this: That souls that victimize others in whatever way in one life will in fact volunteer for a subsequent life which is destined to be a similar victim. It is voluntary. No one is forced to incarnate, but souls will choose such lives knowing what awaits them, and they do so in order to better appreciate the harm they imposed on others. It's all part of the path of spiritual growth, which is the whole point of earthly life.

One could speculate that the concept of "sin", or even the Catholic idea of purgatory descended from this aspect of spiritual life. But no, there is no tribunal judgement where we are accused by any holy being of being evil. While Newton says there is an appearance shortly after death before a panel of beings, there is nothing but overwhelming love flowing from all on it, in spite of whatever failures of whatever magnitude one has committed. They will be aware of the failures, but even so, the harshest judge, by far, will be one's own conscience. And I think THAT is a description fitting of an Almighty God. Not one that gives anyone the "evil eye".

I'd also submit that Newton's realm IS "an assembled model" of the spiritual realm. Unfortunately, it's a realm that is based on deception and lies. Not that I don't believe in "personal guides and teachers" from both within this world as well as the metaphysical spirit world -- I do. They just happen to be working for the "other team." Without our spiritual sentry guarding the gates of consciousness, the obvious danger of hypnotism is invasion of unwanted malevolent spirits with a free run at our mind and soul, and possible hijacking.

You are of course free to believe what you will, but I don't think you have any evidence in claiming this. You say Newton has no proof of the truth of the information he gives. Do you have proof, or just faith, that evil spirits are feeding him lies?

Nothing new under the sun here; Newton is selling an escape from the judgement of God...because according to his institute of so-called enlightenment, we are our own God. Eternal punishment is erased from the equation. The tenets of Gospel with Salvation thru Christ is not needed. Forgiveness a personal matter of self-atonement and self-love, as well as and self-anointing of grace. All based on this regression of past lives and digging deep to "know" and reveal the inner god-self. Wrapped up in a neat, simplistic package. No "messes" here.

It absolutely is a different model from the biblical/Christian model, but it's one that's IMO is more fitting and makes more sense. It has empirical evidence in support, and one that fits present day observations in the world much better. It doesn't conflict with contemporary science claims of evolution, or cosmology, or the possibility of life existing elsewhere in the universe.

Evidence in support of Christianity consists of ancient texts and archeology. And, quite frankly, that's just about all it has. Some here claim Christianity has witnesses, but I disagree. Any witnesses are gone (unless, quite ironically, they reincarnated). And I should point out that the world portrayed by Newton does not mean there could not have been a Jesus walking the earth doing miracles 2000 years ago. That's quite possible in the Newton model. There are good stories in the bible, and good lessons that can be obtained from them. And Christianity does have elements that are true and beneficial to people. And there are some awesome Christians around helping people in good ways and I think that's great.

Best...

For what specifically, Bob?

For this from 81: " Babies and the young who can't know better, don't know better are still covered under God's grace. I realize a lot of the so-called "messy" stuff regarding "sin" comes from Catholic teachings, so naturally a lot of unnecessary confusion, resentment, and hostility toward an "unfair" God arises as a result.

At what point and to what extent God first holds someone responsible can't be measured chronologically, but we can be sure that any "fixed level" of accountability is measured fairly, AND with consideration to environmental factors, etal factors. "

Now I am not saying that I disagre, that discussion may come later, but, this sounds a lot like the theology of all, before a certain age, go to heaven, which is wrong and not supported by any scripture that I am aware of.

You are a patient man.

I'm going to digest the convo here and follow up (and not wait another 2 years :-)

They'll be helpful for both of us (check them out and let me know if your opinions and notations still apply.)

Thanks...

(check them out and let me know if your opinions and notations still apply.)

I could have written it yesterday. And I gotta pat myself on the back for this line, which cracked me up!

Drugs and alcohol (another drug) do alter one's mental state, but 7000 drunk people won't agree on a whole lot of things about the afterlife.

I gotta pat myself on the back for this line, which cracked me up!

("Drugs and alcohol [another drug] do alter one's mental state, but 7000 drunk people won't agree on a whole lot of things about the afterlife.")

Aaaah...had to contemplate that "7,000" number for a spell first. Heh -- yeah, getting hypnotized *while* high might be some kind of "double-jeopardy" or sumpin'.