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Title: Obama to Wall Street: ‘Join Us, Instead of Fighting Us’
Source: NY Times
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/b ... ss/economy/23obama.html?src=mv
Published: Apr 22, 2010
Author: PETER BAKER
Post Date: 2010-04-22 14:13:16 by WhiteSands
Keywords: wall street, NYC Rape of nation and planet, new yorkers
Views: 1056
Comments: 83

By PETER BAKER

President Obama challenged some of the nation’s most influential bankers on Thursday to call off their “battalions of financial industry lobbyists” and embrace a new regulatory structure meant to avert another economic crisis.

Speaking in the bankers’ backyard, at the Cooper Union in Manhattan, Mr. Obama castigated a “failure of responsibility” by Wall Street for having led to the financial crisis of 2008, and he pressed his case for what he called “a common-sense, reasonable, non-ideological” system of tighter regulation to prevent any recurrence. He took issue with the claim that his proposal would institutionalize the idea of future bailouts of huge banks.

“That may make for a good sound bite, but it’s not factually accurate,” Mr. Obama said. “It is not true. In fact, the system as it stands is what led to a series of massive, costly taxpayer bailouts. And it’s only with reform that we can we avoid a similar outcome in the future. In other words, a vote for reform is a vote to put a stop to taxpayer-funded bailouts. That’s the truth. End of story.”

He said scrupulous business leaders had no reason to resist his regulation plan. “The only people who ought to fear the kind of oversight and transparency that we’re proposing are those whose conduct will fail this scrutiny,” he said.

Among those on hand were some of the city’s prominent bankers, including Lloyd C. Blankfein, the chief executive, and Gary Cohn, the chief operating officer, of Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street giant accused by the federal government last week of defrauding investors during the crisis.

Also on hand were top executives from JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse, Barclays and Bank of America, as well as Gov. David A. Paterson, Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, who has expressed concern about the regulation plan and its impact on New York.

The president’s calls to empower consumers and rein in risky trading were met with both cheers and whistles from the audience, which included students, faculty and union leaders.

But his trip was also met with some skepticism and outright opposition. The New York Post ran a front-page editorial under the banner headline, “Dear Mr. President, Don’t Kill the Golden Goose: City Economy Imperiled in the Name of ‘Reform.’ ” The United States Chamber of Commerce took out full-page ads in New York papers addressing the president: “Mayor Bloomberg has pointed out that beating up on Wall Street may be good short-term politics — but not if it gets in the way of the right solutions.”

Republican operatives from Washington said the president was playing politics and ignoring what they said were some of the real culprits, the government-backed mortgage housing giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, accusing Democrats of blocking reforms that would have prevented problems.

“How many times will President Barack Obama mention Fannie/Freddie in his speech on ‘reform’?” Brad Dayspring, a spokesman for Representative Eric I. Cantor of Virginia, the House Republican whip, said in an e-mail message to reporters. “Zero. Not once. Guess it remains the Democrats’ dirty little secret.”

In traveling to New York, the president laid out the elements he insists on being in any legislation sent to him for his signature. Among them are more consumer protections, limits on the size of banks and the risks they can take, reforms on executive compensation and greater transparency for controversial securities known as derivatives.

He registered his grievance with what he called the “misleading arguments and attacks” on his plan by industry lobbyists, and called on industry leaders to drop their opposition.

“I am sure that some of those lobbyists work for you, and they’re doing what they’re paid to do,” he said. “But I am here today specifically when I speak to titans of industry here because I want to urge you to join us, instead of fighting us in this effort. I am here because I believe that these reforms are, in the end, not only in the best interest of our country, but in the best interest of our financial sector.”

He added: “We will not always see eye to eye. We will not always agree. But that does not mean that we’ve got to choose between two extremes. We do not have to choose between markets that are unfettered by even modest protections against crisis, or markets that are stymied by onerous rules that suppress enterprise and innovation. That is a false choice.”

The fight to impose tougher regulation on the financial industry has become the president’s top legislative priority in the weeks since he signed his health care program into law and both parties are jockeying for position on the issue with midterm elections just six months away. The president and his allies have eagerly portrayed Republicans as handmaidens of Wall Street while the Republicans have accused Democrats of trying to strangle the market and even institutionalize the idea of bailouts in tough times.

The partisan tension appeared to ease somewhat as both sides predicted an eventual bipartisan compromise. A Senate committee on Wednesday sent to the floor a bill imposing tougher rules on derivatives, the complex securities at the heart of the 2008 financial crisis, and one Republican senator joined Democrats in advancing the legislation.

In an interview with CNBC and The New York Times on Wednesday and in the speech Thursday, Mr. Obama avoided attacking Republicans directly, suggesting he was angling for a deal. But he still included tough talk about the industry that he accused of putting profit ahead of propriety.

The president’s address circled back to another speech he gave at the same location in March 2008 warning of financial manipulation, market bubbles and the concentration of economic power. He repeated some of the same lines he gave two years ago and cast himself as a prescient forecaster before the collapse later that year.

“I take no satisfaction in noting that my comments then have largely been borne out by the events that followed,” he said. “But I repeat what I said then because it is essential that we learn the lessons from this crisis, so we don’t doom ourselves to repeat it. And make no mistake. That is exactly what will happen if we allow this moment to pass — and that is an outcome that is unacceptable to me and it is unacceptable to you, the American people.”

Mr. Obama embraced both the financial regulation bill passed by the House last year and the version emerging in the Senate. Mr. Obama laid out five elements that “must be included” in the final bill:

¶Instituting a system to shut down large financial firms that begin to fail “with the least amount of collateral damage to innocent people and businesses.”

¶Imposing the so-called Volcker Rule, named after Paul A. Volcker, the former Federal Reserve chairman who proposed limits on the freewheeling trading and risks taken by banks.

¶Setting new transparency rules for derivatives and other complex securities, to “respect legitimate activities but prevent reckless risk-taking.”

¶Assuring “strong consumer financial protections” by providing consumers with better information about financial products.

¶Allowing investors and pension holders a vote on executive pay packages and giving the Securities and Exchange Commission greater oversight over corporate elections.

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#25. To: war (#23)

I've already shown you that their portfolios actually performed better

Fannie Mae Securities Litigation

The Fannie Mae Securities Litigation involves a massive accounting fraud that spans a four year period. The action is pending before the Honorable Richard J. Leon of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. The defendants are the Federal National Mortgage Association (“FNMA” or “Fannie Mae”), three senior officers (the “Individual Defendants”), and Fannie Mae’s outside auditor, KPMG LLP.

Plaintiffs allege that during the period April 17, 2001 through and including September 27, 2005 (the “Class Period”) Fannie Mae and its three most senior corporate officers intentionally misapplied accounting rules and engaged in other misconduct to distort financial results, “smooth out” earnings, reduce income statement volatility, and to maximize the Individual Defendants’ compensation. In addition, plaintiffs allege that defendant KPMG issued materially false and misleading audit reports in which the auditor certified Fannie Mae’s financial results and violated generally accepted auditing standards. Fannie Mae’s and KPMG’s false and misleading statements combined to cause Fannie Mae’s stock price to be artificially inflated throughout the Class Period.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   16:49:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: WhiteSands (#22)

What has this to do with your position that FNMA did not buy loans made to borrowers with credit problems?

That's an odd name. Is that your final answer? Well. it's incorrect. The correct answer is that it was Boofer's hero, Boy Blunder who asked for it.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   16:50:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: WhiteSands (#25)

What do their accounting issues have to do with anything?

Nothing.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   16:51:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Badeye (#21) (Edited)

You once claimed that if you were to investigate JFK's murder you would find out where every international assassin was on that day.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   16:55:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: war (#27)

What do their accounting issues have to do with anything?

Nothing.

Really.

FNMA buying bad loans and reporting, "all is well", had no impact?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   16:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: WhiteSands (#29)

Thanks for admitting you did not read my posts.

Come back when you're up to speed and can ask an intelligent question.

Thanks.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   16:58:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: war (#30)

Really.

FNMA buying bad loans and reporting, "all is well", had no impact?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   16:58:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: WhiteSands (#31)

Thanks for admitting you did not read my posts.

Come back when you're up to speed and can ask an intelligent question.

Thanks.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:00:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: war (#32)

Do you feel that Madoff misrepresenting earnings had an effect on investors?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:03:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: war (#28)

"What do their accounting issues have to do with anything? "

Wow.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:04:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: WhiteSands (#34)

Told ya.

I can see NOVEMBER from my House....

Badeye  posted on  2010-04-22   17:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: All (#34)

"What do their [ Fannie Mae ] accounting issues [ faked earnings reports ] have to do with anything [ The Mortgage crises] ? "

war

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Badeye (#35)

Told ya.

Told me what?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:13:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: WhiteSands (#33) (Edited)

Do you feel that apples taste like oranges?

You are so far out of your element.

Madoff simply took the money and spent it and sent out false statements saying that it was invested.

FNMA's accounting issues ended in 2004. Detailed analysis of the financial crisis have found that it was precipitated by loans originated and assets securitized between 2005 and 2007.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:14:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: WhiteSands (#36)

That is a question that you have yet to answer.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:15:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: BadSands (#35)

You know you're doing good when badeye's cheering you on.

Undoubtedly you've obvious refuse to read the link Bill D Berger posted regard 9/11 ... Luberator

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-04-22   17:16:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Abu el Banat (#40)

Chuckles...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: war (#38)

FNMA's accounting issues ended in 2004. Detailed analysis of the financial crisis have found that it was precipitated by loans originated and assets securitized between 2005 and 2007.

Were the repayment periods, on the loans bought by Fannie Mae, longer than 3 years?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:25:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: war (#39)

You feel Fannie Mae has no impact on available credit and lending policies of banks?

Really.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:29:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: WhiteSands (#42)

All the loans that they bought were conforming loans.

So?

Your argument can be made in only one way: you need to show that the mortgages that FNMA bought were the cause of the financial crisis and that was because those mortgages were issued to bad credit.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: WhiteSands (#43)

You feel Fannie Mae has no impact on available credit and lending policies of banks?

You feel that their accounting issues did?

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:30:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: WhiteSands (#37)

Reply 21.

I can see NOVEMBER from my House....

Badeye  posted on  2010-04-22   17:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Abu el Banat (#40)

No cheering on, just noting you can't have a rational fact based conversation with my anti groupie when its counter to liberal dogma. Been that way for over a decade, it will never ever change. So why bother?

I can see NOVEMBER from my House....

Badeye  posted on  2010-04-22   17:33:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Boofer (#46) (Edited)

He didn't expect an answer and was telling you to shut the fuck up Boofer...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:33:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Boofer (#47)

Chuckles...feel free to ping me to a rational discussion in which you've been a counter party, Boofer.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:34:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: war (#44)

The financial crisis was caused by non traditional read sub prime non bank lending.

Fannie Mae bought bad loans.

Fannie Mae faked their earnings.

Then tried to obtain more bad loans.

You feel that each is institution is separate and in no way effected by the practices of the other.

---------- Aug. 10, 2007

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight said late Friday it would not allow Fannie Mae to increase its portfolio beyond the $727 billion limit created in May 2006, despite arguments by the company and senior Democrats that a change would provide much-needed stability to the shaky mortgage market.

The agency's announcement comes after a tense week of public posturing in Washington. Several major mortgage companies have complained about difficulty selling loans to investors, and Fannie Mae said it could pump liquidity into this area.

But President George W. Bush countered in two separate press conferences that any changes to regulatory policy should come only after Congress completes a reform package that overhauls the way Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac /quotes/comstock/13*!fre/quotes/nls/fre (FRE 1.49, -0.01, -0.67%) are supervised.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-agency-rejects-fannie-maes-request-for-larger-loan-portfolio-2007810174500

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   17:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: WhiteSands (#50) (Edited)

Your argument can be made in only one way: you need to show that the mortgages that FNMA bought were the cause of the financial crisis and that was because those mortgages were issued to bad credit.

I showed you above with the FRB study how your argument CANNOT be made.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   17:46:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: WhiteSands (#50)

What war simply cannot understand is that the industry problems with these irresponsible loans simply did not happen before the rabid enforcement of the CRA and the irresponsible practices of the GSEs.

These things feed upon themselves, and with the GSEs fraudulently claiming they were solvent, all entities began to think that they could do this, too.

As I posted above, even war's buttboy's Secetary of the Treasury claims the GSEs were central to the issue. Maybe war should take it up with him.

no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-04-22   17:54:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: war (#51)

"Fannie and Freddie were required to show that 55 percent of their mortgage purchases were LMI loans and, within that goal, 38 percent of all purchases were to come from underserved areas (usually inner cities) and 25 percent were to be loans to low-income and very-low-income borrowers.

Meeting these goals almost certainly required Fannie and Freddie to purchase loans with low down payments and other deficiencies that would mark them as sub-prime or Alt-A."

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/02/06/the-true-origins-of-this-finan/print

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   18:01:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: no gnu taxes, war (#52)

The availability of credit does not occur in a vacuum.

war is saying that banks made bad loans none of which reached Fannie Mae.

war is saying Fannie Mae only bought good loans.

Buying only low risk loans would have violated Fannie Mae’s charter.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   18:09:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: war (#51)

Your argument can be made in only one way: you need to show that the mortgages that FNMA bought were the cause of the financial crisis and that was because those mortgages were issued to bad credit.

"The decline in underwriting standards is clear in the financial disclosures of Fannie and Freddie. From 2005 to 2007, Fannie and Freddie bought approximately $1 trillion in sub-prime and Alt-A loans.

This amounted to about 40 percent of their mortgage purchases during that period."

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/02/06/the-true-origins-of-this-finan/print

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   18:37:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: WhiteSands (#54)

war is saying that banks made bad loans none of which reached Fannie Mae.

I did not "say" that. My "nope" was to your implication that all FNMA bought was low credit mortgages. If that is not what you were "saying" then I'd suggest you express yourself better.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   20:28:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: WhiteSands (#55) (Edited)

This amounted to about 40 percent of their mortgage purchases during that period."

Could be...at the the time of the crisis it was still less than 15% of their portfolio. And bank issued Alt-A performed in a manner similar to conventional.

But you still haven't satisfied the conditions.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   20:32:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: WhiteSands (#55)

BTW, you do know that there is a difference between bank issued ALT-A loans, private issued Alt-A loans and sub prime loans?

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   20:37:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: WhiteSands (#53)

spectator.org

Please...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   20:38:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: war (#56)

I did not "say" that. My "nope" was to your implication that all FNMA bought was low credit mortgages.

I never wrote "all".

I wrote:

"FNMA bought loans made to borrowers with credit problems."

If you felt I meant, "all" loans, then you need help with reading comprehension.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   20:41:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: war (#59)

spectator.org

war as a source.

please.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   20:42:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: WhiteSands (#60)

Feel free to point out in that sentence where you stated that FNMA bought other loans as well.

Thanks.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   20:43:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: WhiteSands (#61)

I cited the Federal Reserve Bank, moron.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-04-22   20:43:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: war (#57)

But you still haven't satisfied the conditions.

You mean "your" conditions.

LMAO!

No one other than Barney Frank can satisfy you.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   20:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: war (#63) (Edited)

New York Times. Sept 29, 1999
"Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending"

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html?pagewanted=print

" In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders."

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans.

Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring. "

"By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings."

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Toss: ADL,CAIR and the Vatican into the pit they belong in.

WhiteSands  posted on  2010-04-22   20:48:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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