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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Jesus in his own words
Source: Gospels and Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 6, 2023
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2023-10-06 20:29:32 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 5601
Comments: 86

Revelation 22: 12-19

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each according to his works. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may enter the gates of the city.

Outside are curs, and drug dealers*, and the sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolators, and everyone making and fondling lies.

I, Jesus, send my messenger** to testify these things to you in the assembly***. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star."

*The word is "pharmakeia". A "pharmakon" sold drugs to people to produce the highs and hallucinations that drugs produce. The ancients ascribed these effects to "magic", so old translations in English will say "sorcerers" or "enchanters" here, but that gives rise to the idea of what we would call a wizard, and that's not what Jesus meant at all. He was talking about the people who sold drugs to people to blow their minds. The word he used,"pharmakeia" could most literally be translated as "pharmacist," ut that would definitely give the wrong idea too. Todays pharmacists are not selling "magic" potions to blow people's minds. The proper modern equivalent of "pharmakeia" is "drug dealer".

**"Messenger" is the meaning of the world "angelos". "Angel," in English is "messenger" in English. Translators like to leave the word barely translated, as "angel", which gives rise in English - to a specific thought of a supernatural winged being. Not in Greek. "Angelos" is simply a "messenger,' whether from on high with wings, or a man with sandals. SoJesus said: he sent his messengers - winged angels or sandal-clad men - it's the message that mattered to Jesus, not the particular physical description of the messenger.

***"Assembly" is what the word "ecclesia" translates to. It literally means "those called out" - of a regular meeting to a special assembly. This is always translated into the English word "church", but that really obscures meaning. For English did not come to be until after 1100, and in 1100, the Church - capital C - was an established political structure - the Catholic Church. And "church" also refers to the specific religious buildings..And Jesus is not talking about buildings or political organizations, he is talking about assemblies of people, who follow him. "Church" is a loaded anachronism that Catholics and the Orthodox will seize upon to say "See! See! The Church ALWAYS was." But that is a distortion. Yes, there were always followers of Jesus back to the First Century. But no, they were not following all of the rites and traditions and ideas of the Catholic or Orthodox Church, not in the first century. "Assemblies of people devoted to Jesus" is what the "ecclesia" is. Therefore, the word "assembly" here is precise and apt, not the Anglcism "church", which did not exist for another 1000 years, and which carries with it all sorts of implications that Jesus was not talking about at all.

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#2. To: All (#0) (Edited)

Revelation 21:6-8

..."I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the sexually immoral, drug dealers, idolators and liars of every sort, their lot is in the burning lake of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

_________________

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   8:12:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2)

drug dealers isnt in the bible.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   10:10:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

Yes it is.

The word is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists.

It is not "enchanters" or "sorcerers" as it is frequently translated.

Pharmakeia were very specific people in the ancient world. They ran apothecary establishments that specialized in selling pills and potions that would make people high - opium and its derivatives. light dosages of strichinine that have the same effect.

In the ancient world they did not understand chemistry, so they thought they were selling "magic". The "magic" drugs did exactly the same things that the same drugs do today in our society: destroyed lives, crazed people running around. But this was neither illegal nor suppressed in ancient society. So, you had unregulated legal drug abuse everywhere, sold by pharmakeia, to blow people's minds. That's precisely who Jesus was addressing.

So, how do you translate that? "Pharmacists" would be the exact translation, but it would be completely misunderstood by almost everybody. Pharmacists go into the Lake of Fire? What? Why? They are just dispensers of medication. There was nothing medical about what pharmakeia did. They were peddling drug "magic" to get people high. "Magician", "enchanter" or "sorcerer" are the usual translations, but they completely miss the mark, and imply that Jesus was condemning actual magic, which does not exist. Secondly, it misses the point that Jesus was specifically talking about peddlers of DRUG "magic", who had all of the same terrible effects on people as drug dealing does today. Jesus was addressing a specific evil - drug peddling - and he used the specific word for that "pharmakeia".

Drug dealers are and were real, and produced all of the horrible effects on people and societies in 100 AD as they do today. Jesus put them on his list of the damned: pharmacists - pharmakeia. That is EXACTLY what the word means. Yes, it IS in the Bible, right there. Twice.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   10:49:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

your thread might be useless since you used modern translation and not the transpation from 400 years earlier. i guess you think god is week and cant preserve his word. King James is accurate. NIV is fullof errors. whatever "version" you used is infamilar and changes words.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   11:50:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: A K A Stone (#5)

Actually, I use a Greek interlinear. I was looking directly at the Greek.

My thread IS useless here, however. Stony hearts.

If we were to go on, you may well see a great number of things you have not seen before. But all you're going to do is fight me on every one. So why bother expending the time on it?

I suppose I could just use the KJV, to please you. But then we would be missing the reality of what Jesus said. He wasn't talking about wizards in Revelation, he was specifically talking about people who blew people's minds with "magic" drugs, a REAL scourge in his age and ours. Wizards have never been a scourge in any age, because they don't really exist. But pharmakeia certainly did, and do.

You don't want to hear it.

And I'm tired of it already.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:04:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

well see a great number of things you have not seen before.

I'm sure we would. I'm pretty certain you have read the Bible more than me and I could learn something from you. But that doesn't mean I will always agree with you.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:20:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#9)

Well, you ought agree with me on PHARMACISTS, because it's SO OBVIOUS it shouldn't be controversial. The Greek here is "pharmakeia", for God's sake!

The traditional translations have "sorcerers" and "enchanters" - which were things that people were worried about in the 1500s nd 1600s when the traditional translations were made. JESUS was worried about pharmacists, who openly sold heroin to the masses so they could experience the "magic" of the high, THEY believed it was magic, but we know what it is: drugs.

And the problem of drugs is very REAL. The problem of witches boiling their cauldrons and casting spells, the crazy ideas of 1500? Those never were real, and we stopped doing all of that before 1700, because it was obviously crazy and dark and evil - burning old women as witches was nuts. Opposing pharmacists selling heroin? THAT was real. It wasn't happening in 1500, but it WAS very much happening in the Greek east of Jesus' time, just as it happens today.

Your "disagreement" with me is refusing to see a word that's right THERE, in black and white on the printed page! "Pharmakeia" IS Pharmacist, and it's a drug dealer, not a "sorcerer".

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:29:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

JESUS was worried about pharmacists, who openly sold heroin to the masses so they could experience the "magic" of the high, THEY believed it was magic, but we know what it is: drugs.

I don't really disagree with you here. I don't think I do. Except consider this. Magic isn't as in a magic trick but is the effects of the drugs.

So we are not really that far apart imo.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:31:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: A K A Stone (#17)

We're not far apart on that. The ancients THOUGHT it was magic, because of the effects, certainly. But JESUS didn't give a general prescription against all of the supersitions of the Greeks. He focused on those who sold the "magic" drugs and said they were headed into the fire. So, the general populace at the time was superstitious and wrong, but Jesus wasn't playing to their superstitions, he was focusing on the truth: the people peddling the "magic" drugs were bad people because of that, so off to the fire with them.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:38:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: All (#20)

Revelation 16;15

(KJV)

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keeping his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

(My Greek text)

"Lo, I am coming as a thief. Happy is he that is watching and keeping his garments, that he not be walking naked and they be observing his shame."

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   18:43:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#28)

Would you agree that happy and blessed are very different?

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   19:38:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A K A Stone (#30)

Revelation 3:7-12 (KJV)

"And to the Angel of the Church in Philadelphia write, These things saith he that is Holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of Dauid, he that openeth, and no man shutteth, and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy workes: behold, I haue set before thee an open doore, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word,* and hast not denied my Name.

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Iewes, and are not, but doe lie: behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feete, and to know that I haue loued thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepe thee from the houre of temptation, which shall come vpon all the world, to try them that dwell vpon the earth.

Beholde, I come quickly, hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crowne.*

Him that ouercommeth,* will I make a pillar in the Temple of my God, and he shall goe no more out: and I wil write vpon him the Name of my God, and the name of the Citie of my God, which is new Hierusalem, which commeth downe out of heauen from my God: And I will write vpon him my New name."

Notes:

In three places I have marked with an asterisk the key theological points Jesus is making here. He knows their WORKS, and rewards them for that. And at the end, he says that he who OVERCOMES will have the prize. This is all works, acts, doing, triumphing by doing what one ought. He speaks of "keeping his word". We are going through his word, and we will find again and again and again Jesus talks about what he wants you to DO, and NOT DO. I used to have a Lutheran girlfriend, who went to a Lutheran school and was, with her sister, fully taught up in their doctrines, and believed them. Her attitude about sex (premarital, we were teenagers) was much more casual than mine. To her, it was not complicated. She was "born again", and therefore forgiven all her sins. "Once saved, always saved." I had not read the Bible yet, but was simply going on instinct. My instincts (which were from the Holy Spirit) told me that cannot possibly be right. As I got older, I did read the Bible, and honing in on Jesus, I see very clearly that it was not right, at all. That is simply not what he said.

Now, in saying that, I collide with vast swathes of Christianity. So what? How can anyone read what Jesus said to the church in Philadelphia, or the parts later in Revelation when he lists the sins that will get you thrown into the Lake of Fire, or his incessant urge to overcome, to conquer, and think that he is simply asking you to believe that he is the Son of God? Every single person IN all of the Churches to whom he sent letters believed that he was the Son of God! He's not writing to the world, he's writing to CHURCHES, for God's sake! He's writing to the angels of these Churches, the messengers who have the authority to teach what he said to others, and he's telling them point blank to keep doing their works, if they are doing good, and to stop doing works that are not good. He says he will judge you based on your works. He does not say he will judge you on your faith alone. Never.

This is the central point of my annoyance with Protestantism. The Protestants with whom I have discussed this and debated this in the past sound like Watchman, and my old girlfriend and her sister. But it's not just them. There is a stubborn certitude that what is required is a dramatic moment when on is "Born Again", and that THIS has to happen FIRST, and that WHEN it happens one "puts on the new man" and does not sin again, and starts doing good works (can't do them before. they don't count if you do), and that IF you fall, that is evidence that the original conversion was not really sincere.

Putting this as politely as possible, that's a great general theory of religion, of how everything works, and hundreds of millions of people believe that. It just is not what Jesus said, at all, ever, anywhere. A whole vast religion calls itself "Christian", but simply IGNORES Jesus and believes what they want to believe, which is very different, and rather contrary in spirit, to what he actually said.

My criticism of the Catholics and the Orthodox is different. They do not get this part wrong. They focus on Jesus pretty well. But then they add volumes, libtary wings! of ADDITIONAL stuff, that Jesus did NOT say, and say that it's all mandatory because the Church says so, and that the Church is the ultimate guide and guarantor of souls. And in the process, many of these traditions directly contradict Jesus. Most dramatically, all of the men and women murdered by the Church over the years as witches and heretics. Jesus said that MURDERERS have their part in the Lake of Fire. If you are burning a witch, you are a murderer by definition. Jesus did not say, "Well, except for witches...". In fact, when it came to sexual sin, of the sort that YHWH said deserved the death penalty in the Torah, Jesus said "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone. Fact is, killing somebody is a black act, pure evil. And if you're doing it in the name of Jesus, you have not only completely disregarded what he said, you have damned yourself to hell based on what he said!

The Catholic and Orthodox, and Protestant, Churches stopped killing people, but they won't admit they were wrong to have done it in the first place. They hedge, shuck and jive and say "different times". Jesus spoke these words 2000 years ago, long before the Churches existed to burn people. And yet they did burn people, LIBERALLY. The Lutherans burnt 100,000 people in Germany. The Calvininsts in Scotland burnt 20,000. This is not excusable, and I will never let up on it until my interlocutor admits to himself, to me, and to Jesus that historically their church was wrong - dead wrong - and did great evil.

And of course if the Church did great evil then, could be THAT wrong, they can still be that wrong about anything else. I assert that whenever they are doing anything that is different from what Jesus said, they are wrong. OF COURSE they are wrong! Jesus was the Son of God. Nobody else is. This is True Faith in Jesus' word: that you actually rely on it to obliterate the traditions of men that contradict it.

What he said to the Church in Philadelphia: I see what you do, and you do good. Keep doing good, don't let others lead you astray, and if you do good all the way to the end, I will reward you.

That's it, that's all. It dumbfounds me that Christians will argue - really quite viciously, for any other belief set. But they DO. Lord do they!

Hopefully you will agree with Jesus, and we can move out smartly and see him say the same things over and over and over again, really beat it in there, if there were any doubt. He's already said the same thing to two churches. One he praises, Philadelphia, and one he criticizes, threatening to spew them out of this mouth, to reject them - to reject a Church and turn his back on them - because their acts are lukewarm.

How can ANYBODY read this and say "Once saved, always saved? Works are unavailing? And Faith Alone?" It's perverse. It's directly contrary to what Jesus is saying, which is to say, if you're a Trinitarian, it's directly opposed to what God Himself said.

Why do that? It is incomprehensible to me. If you don't believe Jesus was Lord, or Divine, then don't follow him. But if you DO say he was, then why do you then substitute your own made-up doctrines for what he said? I just don't get it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-08   15:37:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

it happens one "puts on the new man" and does not sin again, and starts doing good works

Once you're saved you still sin. You don't never sin again. You repent when you sin.

You're going to lawyer and bury me in paperwork so to speak. But that's ok.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:22:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: A K A Stone (#42)

Moving along - Revelation 3:1-5

And vnto the Angel of the Church in Sardis write, These things saith he that hath the seuen Spirits of God, & the seuen starres; I know thy workes, that thou hast a name that thou liuest, and art dead. Be watchfull, and strengthen the things which remaine, that are ready to die: for I haue not found thy works perfect before God.*. Remember therefore, how thou hast receiued and heard, and hold fast, and repent.* If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thiefe, and thou shalt not know what houre I will come vpon thee.

Thou hast a few names euen in Sardis, which haue not defiled their garments, and they shall walke with me in white: for they are worthy.

Hee that ouercommeth, the same shalbe clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the booke of life,* but I will confesse his name before my Father, and before his Angels."

NOTES: * I have starred the same argument again:

(1) I see your works and they are very imperfect.

(2) Remember what I said and turn back - repent! - and do what I said to do.

(3) Or your name, which WAS written in the book of life, I will blot out instead.

This is not once saved, always saved. It's the opposite. It's: you heard me and followed, and so were written in the book of life. But now you're not following, and if you don't go back and do what I told you to do, I will blot out your name from the book of life where it currently is.

This is the gaining of salvation, but then losing it because one does not persevere in doing what Jesus commanded.

Why kick at the goad? Just do what Jesus said to do, and it will go well for you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-09   10:45:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Vicomte13 (#49) (Edited)

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-09   13:59:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: A K A Stone (#51)

That's nice. But he's quoting a letter of John. If you want me to listen, then quote Jesus. I will listen to Jesus. Jesus said all that needs to be said, and he's clear as a bell.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-09   16:02:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Vicomte13 (#56)

Yes im quoting from the Bible. Hiw will you k n ow when your works are good enough to make you worthy?

Do you have to have works to enter Heaven?

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-09   17:07:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: A K A Stone (#60) (Edited)

Continuing - Revelation 2: 1-7

Vnto the Angel of the church of Ephesus, write, These things saith he that holdeth the seuen starres in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seuen golden Candlesticks:

I know thy workes, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not beare them which are euil, and thou hast tried them which say they are Apostles, and are not, and hast found them lyers:

And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my Names sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Neuerthelesse, I haue somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first loue.

Remember therfore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and doe the first workes, or else I will come vnto thee quickly, and will remoue thy Candlesticke out of his place, except thou repent*

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Hee that hath an eare, let him heare what the Spirit saith vnto the Churches: To him that ouercommeth will I giue to eate of the tree of life, which is in the middest of the Paradise of God.*

NOTES

* It's the same thing as already noted: Jesus is talking to a church again - believers - and he acknowledges their works, faith, endurance. But he notes their loss of love, and warns them that he will remove their "candlestick", which he describes in Chapter One, unless they turn back - repent.

And again he notes that those who overcome will be in Paradise.

Same message: you are a church, you believe in me, but I said to follow me by keeping all of my commandments, but you have stopped doing that. Unless you repent, I will throw you out. Those who do keep my commandments and overcome will join me in Paradise.

Same message, expressed once again. This is not "Once saved, always saved." These people are already a church, a community of believers. Rather, this is Jesus saying, as we've seen him say to the other churches: Keep my commandments, do what I say to the end, and you will be with me in Paradise. And if you don't, I will throw you down. It's direct and simple, and plain as day.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-09   23:23:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Vicomte13 (#68)

I do think this though. I think if you are saved you are probably going to have some works. Since you are a new creature. But your salvation isn't because of the works, the works just show that you are changed.

If you forget to repent about something or don't get a chance to and you get hit by a car does that mean you go to hell?

If not how many sins would you have to not repent for?

Or is there some other basis that you can explain.

Thanks.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-10   0:43:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: A K A Stone (#78) (Edited)

People who are not consciously Christians nevertheless do good works, and Jesus credits them with these works.

'He who gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones will not go without his reward.'

The Good Samaritan.

One does not have to overtly believe in God to do good works, and be credited by Jesus for it.

Jesus judges based on what you do. Remember those who cry out "Lord, Lord", but who did not heal the sick, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, feed the poor. Jesus sent them into the Lake of Fire. It is simply not enough to believe something about Jesus. He said he would judge you by what you do right there in Revelation: 'I judge each by his works.' Believing in Jesus should make you do good things, because that's what he teaches you to do. But if you don't do good things, knowing that Jesus is God won't do you any good. The demons know that too, and tremble.

In the end, once all of the mental gymnastics are done, what matters is what you DO with it - your works. If you don't do anything with it, or do bad things, or - inspired by power - do WORSE things (medieval Christians deciding to burn people as witches in the name of God), you are screwed. Jesus wants you to believe in him in order to be able to hear his word and do it. His word is all about doing good things for people.

Unless you are a hopeless cripple, the works are inextricable from the belief.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-10   9:59:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: All (#84)

It is time for a course correction.

I have gotten pulled off the main track, which was to present Jesus in his own words, over into many sidebars. While some of those are interesting my point here to present what JESUS said, not me. Where there are questions, I should answer with Jesus.

Jesus is pithy.

I am much less so, and who cares what I think? Why would they?

If Jesus' own words don't convince you, mine won't either.

So, going forward, my intention is for there to be a lot less of me, and a lot more of Jesus. He is the Lord, after all.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-10   11:45:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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