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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Jesus in his own words
Source: Gospels and Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 6, 2023
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2023-10-06 20:29:32 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 5682
Comments: 86

Revelation 22: 12-19

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each according to his works. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may enter the gates of the city.

Outside are curs, and drug dealers*, and the sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolators, and everyone making and fondling lies.

I, Jesus, send my messenger** to testify these things to you in the assembly***. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star."

*The word is "pharmakeia". A "pharmakon" sold drugs to people to produce the highs and hallucinations that drugs produce. The ancients ascribed these effects to "magic", so old translations in English will say "sorcerers" or "enchanters" here, but that gives rise to the idea of what we would call a wizard, and that's not what Jesus meant at all. He was talking about the people who sold drugs to people to blow their minds. The word he used,"pharmakeia" could most literally be translated as "pharmacist," ut that would definitely give the wrong idea too. Todays pharmacists are not selling "magic" potions to blow people's minds. The proper modern equivalent of "pharmakeia" is "drug dealer".

**"Messenger" is the meaning of the world "angelos". "Angel," in English is "messenger" in English. Translators like to leave the word barely translated, as "angel", which gives rise in English - to a specific thought of a supernatural winged being. Not in Greek. "Angelos" is simply a "messenger,' whether from on high with wings, or a man with sandals. SoJesus said: he sent his messengers - winged angels or sandal-clad men - it's the message that mattered to Jesus, not the particular physical description of the messenger.

***"Assembly" is what the word "ecclesia" translates to. It literally means "those called out" - of a regular meeting to a special assembly. This is always translated into the English word "church", but that really obscures meaning. For English did not come to be until after 1100, and in 1100, the Church - capital C - was an established political structure - the Catholic Church. And "church" also refers to the specific religious buildings..And Jesus is not talking about buildings or political organizations, he is talking about assemblies of people, who follow him. "Church" is a loaded anachronism that Catholics and the Orthodox will seize upon to say "See! See! The Church ALWAYS was." But that is a distortion. Yes, there were always followers of Jesus back to the First Century. But no, they were not following all of the rites and traditions and ideas of the Catholic or Orthodox Church, not in the first century. "Assemblies of people devoted to Jesus" is what the "ecclesia" is. Therefore, the word "assembly" here is precise and apt, not the Anglcism "church", which did not exist for another 1000 years, and which carries with it all sorts of implications that Jesus was not talking about at all.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 25.

#2. To: All (#0) (Edited)

Revelation 21:6-8

..."I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the sexually immoral, drug dealers, idolators and liars of every sort, their lot is in the burning lake of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

_________________

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   8:12:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2)

drug dealers isnt in the bible.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   10:10:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

Yes it is.

The word is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists.

It is not "enchanters" or "sorcerers" as it is frequently translated.

Pharmakeia were very specific people in the ancient world. They ran apothecary establishments that specialized in selling pills and potions that would make people high - opium and its derivatives. light dosages of strichinine that have the same effect.

In the ancient world they did not understand chemistry, so they thought they were selling "magic". The "magic" drugs did exactly the same things that the same drugs do today in our society: destroyed lives, crazed people running around. But this was neither illegal nor suppressed in ancient society. So, you had unregulated legal drug abuse everywhere, sold by pharmakeia, to blow people's minds. That's precisely who Jesus was addressing.

So, how do you translate that? "Pharmacists" would be the exact translation, but it would be completely misunderstood by almost everybody. Pharmacists go into the Lake of Fire? What? Why? They are just dispensers of medication. There was nothing medical about what pharmakeia did. They were peddling drug "magic" to get people high. "Magician", "enchanter" or "sorcerer" are the usual translations, but they completely miss the mark, and imply that Jesus was condemning actual magic, which does not exist. Secondly, it misses the point that Jesus was specifically talking about peddlers of DRUG "magic", who had all of the same terrible effects on people as drug dealing does today. Jesus was addressing a specific evil - drug peddling - and he used the specific word for that "pharmakeia".

Drug dealers are and were real, and produced all of the horrible effects on people and societies in 100 AD as they do today. Jesus put them on his list of the damned: pharmacists - pharmakeia. That is EXACTLY what the word means. Yes, it IS in the Bible, right there. Twice.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   10:49:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

your thread might be useless since you used modern translation and not the transpation from 400 years earlier. i guess you think god is week and cant preserve his word. King James is accurate. NIV is fullof errors. whatever "version" you used is infamilar and changes words.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   11:50:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: A K A Stone (#5)

Actually, I use a Greek interlinear. I was looking directly at the Greek.

My thread IS useless here, however. Stony hearts.

If we were to go on, you may well see a great number of things you have not seen before. But all you're going to do is fight me on every one. So why bother expending the time on it?

I suppose I could just use the KJV, to please you. But then we would be missing the reality of what Jesus said. He wasn't talking about wizards in Revelation, he was specifically talking about people who blew people's minds with "magic" drugs, a REAL scourge in his age and ours. Wizards have never been a scourge in any age, because they don't really exist. But pharmakeia certainly did, and do.

You don't want to hear it.

And I'm tired of it already.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:04:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

My thread IS useless here, however. Stony hearts.

I said perhaps. Continue on.

I trust the KJV version completely. I don't trust the NIV because it makes Jesus a sinner. I know you're not using the NIV but it seems to put modern stuff like "drug dealers" in the text. So I stick with what I trust. Since it is the earliest or second earliest translation in English. Correct me if I am mistaken.

I don't think God would allow an erroneous version to appear for hundreds of years before someone could finally get it right. Since the Bible does say that it would be preached in the whole world.

So continue on. I'm sure we can all learn something here. We should all test our beliefs. So you are welcome to test me and show me where I am wrong. I know I'm not always right and I make mistakes. So I am willing to listen.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:16:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: A K A Stone (#8)

If it makes you feel better, I don't use the NIV. The translation often feels political. I don't even look at it.

I use a direct interlinear Greek to English, and compare it to an Eastern Orthodox translation into English by native Greek speakers.

The KJV is fine for most purposes. Of course, the KJV translators did not translate Revelation from the Greek, because the Textus Receptus manuscript of the Greek Bible they were using did not have it. Erasmus retro- translated Revelation from the Latin Vulgate into Greek, and they used that.

So the KJV's book of Revelation reposes upon the Latin Vulgate as its original source.

The translation I use is from the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchal Text, the official Greek manuscripts of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So it's actually a direct translation by Greeks from a Greek original. The KJV is a translation from a Greek text that was prepared from a Latin original.

They pretty much say the same thing, of course, but the technicalities of the translation details are these.

Of particular note, because I focus on the words of Jesus, not the epistles of the Apostles, and not the Old Testament, the texts that I am looking at are rather small, only about 183 pages. And when it comes to Jesus, there are not many differences at all between textus receptus, Latin Vulgate, Patriarchal Text, KJV, Douai-Rheims, modern Catholic bible, etc. All of these are quite faithful to what Jesus said. The NIV? Well, I don't use it, so I can't really say. The parts I saw had some weird 'gender neutral" language in it that just seemed unnecessary. Is there a real theological difference between "Man does not live by bread alone", and "Humans do not live by bread alone"? No. But the fact that the translators felt compelled to inject modern political sensitivities into the text makes me wonder what else they did. I already really focus in on the meanings of words and the precise statements in Greek, and look at the English to see if it conveys the sense. I just don't need to see modern politics in my texts, and I don't need the additional levels of worry.

I know that ancient manuscripts, every single one, differs somewhat from every single other one. The importance to me is the sense of what Jesus said, Just Jesus, and fortunately those differences, while there are a few more lines of Jesus in some manuscripts compared to others, none of that additional or missing text really makes a difference. Jesus had a clear and consistent message, and that comes through loud and clear. THAT is where I think the spirit lies: what did Jesus MEAN. That's the key, and that's what I am ultimately working towards.

In that regard, "drug dealers" is important, because that's real. Superstitious worries about witches and such are just not real to me. THOSE people are just nuts, deluded, pretending to believe in the ridiculous (from which they derive no ACTUAL power, and never did). It's not the same thing, at all, as Jesus, the Son of God, who really was resurrected (as proven by the Shroud of Turin and the Oviedo Cloth). Jesus was the real deal. So I will listen to him. Anybody else? Well, to the extent they just parrot Jesus, sure. Where they depart from him, to the left or to the right, I focus on that departure, chastise it, and stick with Jesus. Just Jesus.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   13:04:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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