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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Jesus in his own words
Source: Gospels and Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 6, 2023
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2023-10-06 20:29:32 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 5516
Comments: 86

Revelation 22: 12-19

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each according to his works. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may enter the gates of the city.

Outside are curs, and drug dealers*, and the sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolators, and everyone making and fondling lies.

I, Jesus, send my messenger** to testify these things to you in the assembly***. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star."

*The word is "pharmakeia". A "pharmakon" sold drugs to people to produce the highs and hallucinations that drugs produce. The ancients ascribed these effects to "magic", so old translations in English will say "sorcerers" or "enchanters" here, but that gives rise to the idea of what we would call a wizard, and that's not what Jesus meant at all. He was talking about the people who sold drugs to people to blow their minds. The word he used,"pharmakeia" could most literally be translated as "pharmacist," ut that would definitely give the wrong idea too. Todays pharmacists are not selling "magic" potions to blow people's minds. The proper modern equivalent of "pharmakeia" is "drug dealer".

**"Messenger" is the meaning of the world "angelos". "Angel," in English is "messenger" in English. Translators like to leave the word barely translated, as "angel", which gives rise in English - to a specific thought of a supernatural winged being. Not in Greek. "Angelos" is simply a "messenger,' whether from on high with wings, or a man with sandals. SoJesus said: he sent his messengers - winged angels or sandal-clad men - it's the message that mattered to Jesus, not the particular physical description of the messenger.

***"Assembly" is what the word "ecclesia" translates to. It literally means "those called out" - of a regular meeting to a special assembly. This is always translated into the English word "church", but that really obscures meaning. For English did not come to be until after 1100, and in 1100, the Church - capital C - was an established political structure - the Catholic Church. And "church" also refers to the specific religious buildings..And Jesus is not talking about buildings or political organizations, he is talking about assemblies of people, who follow him. "Church" is a loaded anachronism that Catholics and the Orthodox will seize upon to say "See! See! The Church ALWAYS was." But that is a distortion. Yes, there were always followers of Jesus back to the First Century. But no, they were not following all of the rites and traditions and ideas of the Catholic or Orthodox Church, not in the first century. "Assemblies of people devoted to Jesus" is what the "ecclesia" is. Therefore, the word "assembly" here is precise and apt, not the Anglcism "church", which did not exist for another 1000 years, and which carries with it all sorts of implications that Jesus was not talking about at all.

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#1. To: Vicomte13 (#0)

Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each according to his works

Yes the wages of sin is death. Thank God for grace. Not of works lest any man should boast.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   1:23:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: All (#0) (Edited)

Revelation 21:6-8

..."I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the sexually immoral, drug dealers, idolators and liars of every sort, their lot is in the burning lake of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

_________________

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   8:12:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2)

drug dealers isnt in the bible.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   10:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

Yes it is.

The word is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists.

It is not "enchanters" or "sorcerers" as it is frequently translated.

Pharmakeia were very specific people in the ancient world. They ran apothecary establishments that specialized in selling pills and potions that would make people high - opium and its derivatives. light dosages of strichinine that have the same effect.

In the ancient world they did not understand chemistry, so they thought they were selling "magic". The "magic" drugs did exactly the same things that the same drugs do today in our society: destroyed lives, crazed people running around. But this was neither illegal nor suppressed in ancient society. So, you had unregulated legal drug abuse everywhere, sold by pharmakeia, to blow people's minds. That's precisely who Jesus was addressing.

So, how do you translate that? "Pharmacists" would be the exact translation, but it would be completely misunderstood by almost everybody. Pharmacists go into the Lake of Fire? What? Why? They are just dispensers of medication. There was nothing medical about what pharmakeia did. They were peddling drug "magic" to get people high. "Magician", "enchanter" or "sorcerer" are the usual translations, but they completely miss the mark, and imply that Jesus was condemning actual magic, which does not exist. Secondly, it misses the point that Jesus was specifically talking about peddlers of DRUG "magic", who had all of the same terrible effects on people as drug dealing does today. Jesus was addressing a specific evil - drug peddling - and he used the specific word for that "pharmakeia".

Drug dealers are and were real, and produced all of the horrible effects on people and societies in 100 AD as they do today. Jesus put them on his list of the damned: pharmacists - pharmakeia. That is EXACTLY what the word means. Yes, it IS in the Bible, right there. Twice.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   10:49:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

your thread might be useless since you used modern translation and not the transpation from 400 years earlier. i guess you think god is week and cant preserve his word. King James is accurate. NIV is fullof errors. whatever "version" you used is infamilar and changes words.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   11:50:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: A K A Stone (#5)

"King James is accurate."

I agree. All these efforts to "modernize" the biblical language just opens The Bible up to misinterpretations by those with bad intentions...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2023-10-07   11:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: A K A Stone (#5)

Actually, I use a Greek interlinear. I was looking directly at the Greek.

My thread IS useless here, however. Stony hearts.

If we were to go on, you may well see a great number of things you have not seen before. But all you're going to do is fight me on every one. So why bother expending the time on it?

I suppose I could just use the KJV, to please you. But then we would be missing the reality of what Jesus said. He wasn't talking about wizards in Revelation, he was specifically talking about people who blew people's minds with "magic" drugs, a REAL scourge in his age and ours. Wizards have never been a scourge in any age, because they don't really exist. But pharmakeia certainly did, and do.

You don't want to hear it.

And I'm tired of it already.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:04:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

My thread IS useless here, however. Stony hearts.

I said perhaps. Continue on.

I trust the KJV version completely. I don't trust the NIV because it makes Jesus a sinner. I know you're not using the NIV but it seems to put modern stuff like "drug dealers" in the text. So I stick with what I trust. Since it is the earliest or second earliest translation in English. Correct me if I am mistaken.

I don't think God would allow an erroneous version to appear for hundreds of years before someone could finally get it right. Since the Bible does say that it would be preached in the whole world.

So continue on. I'm sure we can all learn something here. We should all test our beliefs. So you are welcome to test me and show me where I am wrong. I know I'm not always right and I make mistakes. So I am willing to listen.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:16:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

well see a great number of things you have not seen before.

I'm sure we would. I'm pretty certain you have read the Bible more than me and I could learn something from you. But that doesn't mean I will always agree with you.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:20:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

But all you're going to do is fight me on every one.

Nope just when I disagree.

We already agreed on divorce.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:21:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Mudboy Slim (#6)

You are dead wrong.

The PROBLEM is that the Bible was written in Greek. Now, look at this particular case: the Greek is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists. It is a direct reference to the drug peddlers of the ancient world who sold drugs as "magic". But THAT magic had REAL effects, as heroin does on people. And in a society where it was not illegal, well, imagine if pharmacists were selling heroin, cocaine and meth casually every day? Think how bad the society would be. Ancient society was like that, BECAUSE drug dealers were free to operate. That's what "pharmakeia" - phermacists - WERE, that's what they DID, and that is what Jesus explicitly referred to.

So, now, look at the translation you are insisting on. The KJV translates "pharmacists" as "sorcerers" or "enchanters". That was the medieval mindset. There is no doubt that the ancients thought they were selling magic potions in their drugs - look how powerful the high is. But it was DRUGS they were selling - pharmacists - not general purpose spells and incantations and all that nonsense. Real drugs. Jesus focused on the drug dealers - the pharmacists.

If you read the archaic translations, you would think that Jesus was warning against wizards, sorcerers, as if that is a real thing. You can SEE in the Greek EXACTLY what he was really referring to - it's practically English.

So, are you willing to open your eyes to the TRUTH of what Jesus actually SAID?

Or are you going to be so narrow minded and traditional that you're going to stick with a translation from the same Greek into the English of the late Middle Ages, when they were burning witches!, and assert that the translation of "pharmacists" to "sorcerers" is truer to the meaning of Jesus than "drug dealers", which is what Jesus SAID. What is a "pharmacist".

Now, instead of actually dealing with the issue - that the old traditional translation here is MISTAKEN, and presents words that Jesus DID NOT SAY, and makes what he appears to say very weird - you're going to draw up into the dignity of the older English translation, because it's old.

This is EXACTLY what Jesus excoriated the Pharisees, Priests and Scribes for: loving their TRADITIONS more than Truth.

There is nothing wrong with the KJV. But it is just a translations, and SOME places in it, the words are really inapt. This is one very clear case.

But you people are going to fight for your TRADITIONS over the actual words of Jesus.

So how about I just use the Greek transliteration then: PHARMACISTS are damned to the lake of eternal fire. Not "sorcerers". "Pharmakeia" does not mean sorcerer in ancient or modern Greek. And it never did.

You will not yield the point will you?

Ask yourself: is this because I am clinging to my traditional language more than to the ACTUAL WORDS OF JESUS?

Yes, it is.

Jesus encountered it in life - the traditions of the Pharisees.

And his words are encountering the same thing again in our age, right here, from you.

Perhaps you PREFER to believe (wrongly) that Jesus meant "sorcerers", that Jesus was warning about magic users. That THIS was the problem of his age, not pharmacists selling heroin and blowing people's minds.

Go ahead and believe that. Nobody is going to stop you. Your tradition wins out. Jesus' actual words, they lose. You're ultimately poorer for it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:22:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

Wizards have never been a scourge in any age, because they don't really exist. But pharmakeia certainly did, and do.

Sure they exist. They used drugs.

You may disagree but I think modern medicine may be pharmakia. Just because it is prescribed by a guy in a white lab coat doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.

I'm not sure to be truthful but I think at least some of what they prescribe may be considered pharmakia or maybe all of it. As in we lack faith and rely on mans drugs. Just my honest thoughts.=

Carry on.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:24:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

And in a society where it was not illegal, well, imagine if pharmacists were selling heroin, cocaine and meth casually every day?

OxyContin.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:25:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

You can SEE in the Greek EXACTLY what he was really referring to

I'm sure the translators knew more about Greek than anyone on this forum. I also think God inspired and guided their writing.

You talked about Sorcery and drug use. That is the true meaning not the modern movies that make it into something else. I don't if I conveyed my thoughts good enough but I gotta go and will continue later.

Thanks.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:28:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#9)

Well, you ought agree with me on PHARMACISTS, because it's SO OBVIOUS it shouldn't be controversial. The Greek here is "pharmakeia", for God's sake!

The traditional translations have "sorcerers" and "enchanters" - which were things that people were worried about in the 1500s nd 1600s when the traditional translations were made. JESUS was worried about pharmacists, who openly sold heroin to the masses so they could experience the "magic" of the high, THEY believed it was magic, but we know what it is: drugs.

And the problem of drugs is very REAL. The problem of witches boiling their cauldrons and casting spells, the crazy ideas of 1500? Those never were real, and we stopped doing all of that before 1700, because it was obviously crazy and dark and evil - burning old women as witches was nuts. Opposing pharmacists selling heroin? THAT was real. It wasn't happening in 1500, but it WAS very much happening in the Greek east of Jesus' time, just as it happens today.

Your "disagreement" with me is refusing to see a word that's right THERE, in black and white on the printed page! "Pharmakeia" IS Pharmacist, and it's a drug dealer, not a "sorcerer".

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:29:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

But you people are going to fight for your TRADITIONS over the actual words of Jesus.

I "fight" for the inerrancy of scripture. Not traditions like praying to Mary or Mary never died which isn't in the scripture but is a catholic tradition.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:30:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

JESUS was worried about pharmacists, who openly sold heroin to the masses so they could experience the "magic" of the high, THEY believed it was magic, but we know what it is: drugs.

I don't really disagree with you here. I don't think I do. Except consider this. Magic isn't as in a magic trick but is the effects of the drugs.

So we are not really that far apart imo.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:31:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

And the problem of drugs is very REAL. The problem of witches boiling their cauldrons and casting spells, the crazy ideas of 1500?

And back to biblical times since those manuscripts used were prior to the 1500's.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:32:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A K A Stone (#14)

In the 1500s? No they didn't. They did not have access to Greeks. They were English and Germans, translating Ancient Greek, without Greeks. It was from book learning.

Greeks can READ the Ancient Greek. It's archaic, but it's not a foreign language. We can read Chaucer and Shakespeare, because they are in our language. And educated Greeks can, with a little experience, read Ancient Greek, it's not a totally foreign tongue.

In 1500 the Western translators did not have access to Greeks. The Greeks were under the Turks at the time. WE have access to millions of Greeks. And our understanding of Greek is MUCH better than ANY Westerner's understanding of Greek in the Middle Ages.

So what you are left with is the claim that the KJV translation is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and so is right in all cases anyway. You don't find that IN the Bible, of course. You just believe it.

WHY do you believe it?

Because you believe it.

But WHY? Based on what?

The Holy Spirit.

Ah, so God TELLS you that this is right then, so it's right.

God tells me differently.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:35:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: A K A Stone (#17)

We're not far apart on that. The ancients THOUGHT it was magic, because of the effects, certainly. But JESUS didn't give a general prescription against all of the supersitions of the Greeks. He focused on those who sold the "magic" drugs and said they were headed into the fire. So, the general populace at the time was superstitious and wrong, but Jesus wasn't playing to their superstitions, he was focusing on the truth: the people peddling the "magic" drugs were bad people because of that, so off to the fire with them.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:38:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: All (#19) (Edited)

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:41:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: All (#19)

But you know what? I'm just going to use the KJV translation from here on out, the words of Jesus as translated there. Where I have to make clarifications, as with "messengers" and "pharmacists", I will. But if the text of the translation is a stumbling block, I'll just remove that stumbling block and use your text. It scarcely matters.

But it IS more work. I already have all of the texts selected to present. Now I have to add the step of converting them from the basic translation from the Greek INTO the KJV. So everything will just take longer. Fine. Whatever.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: A K A Stone (#16)

Reproaching me for praying to Mary is odd, considering that I don't do it. You're preaching against a straw man.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:43:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: A K A Stone (#12)

Modern pharmacists are pharmakeia? Especially with regards to Oxycotin? Hmm. That may actually be true. How many lives are destroyed by LEGAL drugs? You make a valid point.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: A K A Stone (#8)

If it makes you feel better, I don't use the NIV. The translation often feels political. I don't even look at it.

I use a direct interlinear Greek to English, and compare it to an Eastern Orthodox translation into English by native Greek speakers.

The KJV is fine for most purposes. Of course, the KJV translators did not translate Revelation from the Greek, because the Textus Receptus manuscript of the Greek Bible they were using did not have it. Erasmus retro- translated Revelation from the Latin Vulgate into Greek, and they used that.

So the KJV's book of Revelation reposes upon the Latin Vulgate as its original source.

The translation I use is from the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchal Text, the official Greek manuscripts of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So it's actually a direct translation by Greeks from a Greek original. The KJV is a translation from a Greek text that was prepared from a Latin original.

They pretty much say the same thing, of course, but the technicalities of the translation details are these.

Of particular note, because I focus on the words of Jesus, not the epistles of the Apostles, and not the Old Testament, the texts that I am looking at are rather small, only about 183 pages. And when it comes to Jesus, there are not many differences at all between textus receptus, Latin Vulgate, Patriarchal Text, KJV, Douai-Rheims, modern Catholic bible, etc. All of these are quite faithful to what Jesus said. The NIV? Well, I don't use it, so I can't really say. The parts I saw had some weird 'gender neutral" language in it that just seemed unnecessary. Is there a real theological difference between "Man does not live by bread alone", and "Humans do not live by bread alone"? No. But the fact that the translators felt compelled to inject modern political sensitivities into the text makes me wonder what else they did. I already really focus in on the meanings of words and the precise statements in Greek, and look at the English to see if it conveys the sense. I just don't need to see modern politics in my texts, and I don't need the additional levels of worry.

I know that ancient manuscripts, every single one, differs somewhat from every single other one. The importance to me is the sense of what Jesus said, Just Jesus, and fortunately those differences, while there are a few more lines of Jesus in some manuscripts compared to others, none of that additional or missing text really makes a difference. Jesus had a clear and consistent message, and that comes through loud and clear. THAT is where I think the spirit lies: what did Jesus MEAN. That's the key, and that's what I am ultimately working towards.

In that regard, "drug dealers" is important, because that's real. Superstitious worries about witches and such are just not real to me. THOSE people are just nuts, deluded, pretending to believe in the ridiculous (from which they derive no ACTUAL power, and never did). It's not the same thing, at all, as Jesus, the Son of God, who really was resurrected (as proven by the Shroud of Turin and the Oviedo Cloth). Jesus was the real deal. So I will listen to him. Anybody else? Well, to the extent they just parrot Jesus, sure. Where they depart from him, to the left or to the right, I focus on that departure, chastise it, and stick with Jesus. Just Jesus.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   13:04:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: A K A Stone (#14)

The real enemy

Is The golden calf culT

Coopting God - creaTion - science

The anTichrisT religion

EvoluTion - marxism - miracles

Turns all The zombies inTo liberals

EnlighTenment vic is a good example

ProsperiTy cargo culT pagan savage idioTs

Love
boris

If you ... don'T use exclamaTion poinTs --- you should'T be Typeing ! Commas - semicolons - quesTion marks are for girlie boys !

BorisY  posted on  2023-10-07   16:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: BorisY (#26)

Thanks, Boris.

Is your point that God did not create and does not rule the universe? I disagree.

I appreciate you calling me enlightened, I would like to think that I am.

I have no idea about the rest of it. Are you saying that I am in a golden calf antichrist religion?

That's funny, given that all I am doing is QUOTING CHRIST IN HIS OWN WORDS.

So, quoting Christ is "anti-Christ"? And I'M the idiot? Jeez Louise!

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   18:35:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: All (#20)

Revelation 16;15

(KJV)

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keeping his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

(My Greek text)

"Lo, I am coming as a thief. Happy is he that is watching and keeping his garments, that he not be walking naked and they be observing his shame."

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   18:43:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: All (#28) (Edited)

n

(KJV). As many as I love I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent. Behold. I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches."

(My Greek literal interlinear translation)

"Whosoever I may be fond of, I am exposing and disciplining. Be zealous, then, and repent! Lo! I stand at the door and am knocking. If ever anyone should be hearing my voice and opening the door, I will also be coming in and dining with him and he with me. The one who is conquering, to him will I be granting to be seated with me on my throne, as I also conquer and am seated with my Father on his throne. Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the assemblies."

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   18:59:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#28)

Would you agree that happy and blessed are very different?

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   19:38:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: A K A Stone (#30)

Not in Greek, no. The word is "makarios" which is probably best expressed as "fortunate".

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   20:24:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: All (#31)

"Happy" is probably too light a translation of "makarios". "Joyful, because of great fortune", is the sense of the world. The very wealthy and the gods of the Greeks were "makarios", because they had everything. "Blessed" would be a good word in English, but the religious connotation is not limited to Jesus and God. The Greek gods and human plutocrats were said to me "makarious" - extreme joy, having not a care in the world, living the life of Reilly - these are the connotations of this word. It is happy, but REALLY happy, because of all of the...well...blessings that one had. "Ecstatic" might be a good English equivalent, although the root word of "ecstatic" is "ecstasy", which refers to a trance-like state, and that is NOT the connotation of "makarios".

So the connotation is one of extreme joy, such as a billionaire would enjoy. Applying to plebeian people full of faith, but without means, is pretty subversive of Jesus, really. He is comparing those who have him as being that of the wealthiest, the most powerful and secure, like the gods of Olympus even. A state of extended happiness that can only be enjoyed by the privileged few is offered to everybody who follows Jesus, even if they remain dirt poor in means. Having Jesus gives on transcendent joy. "Happy" downplays that (in English); 'makarios" is more than simply happiness. But "blessed" has a wholly religious connotation that "makarios" does not have.

The Germans have an expression: "Wie der Lieber Gott im Frankreich" - "to live like God in France" - which implies to have it made, to have it all, to be joyfully at ease, wanting nothing, in a place more beautiful than here. That's "makarios". The joy of the super rich and the gods, not a care in the world.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   22:19:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: A K A Stone (#30) (Edited)

Revelation 3:1-18

"And vnto the Angel* of the Church of the Laodiceans, write, These things saith the Amen, the faithfull and true witnesse, the beginning of the creation** of God:

I know thy workes***, that thou art neither cold nor hot, I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarme, and neither cold nor hot, I wil spew thee out of my mouth:

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and haue need of nothing: and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poore, and blinde, and naked.

I counsell thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest bee rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakednesse doe not appeare, and anoint thine eyes with eye salue, that thou mayest see."

Notes:

*"Angelos" is simply restated here in its Greek form. In Greek, it means "messenger", and the messenger can be human or supernatural. It is a generic word for messenger, not a Greek word for a winged being. It CAN be a winged being, but the Greek does not imply that either way. Leaving the word untranslated, as "angel" implies the winged being to the English speaker 1500 years later, but that implication would not have been seen by the original Greek reader. He would have seen "messenger".

** There is an interesting Trinitarian issue here for those who care. Jesus describes himself directly as "the beginning of the creation of God", the very first created being. Trinitarians would vociferously object to that, claiming it was heresy. But Jesus himself says it, right here. It's obvious that the begotten son of God had to be begotten - perhaps before all time, so when he was begotten was not a "time." So, there was never a moment in "time" that Jesus did not exist, 'time" being a relative measurement between things, and there were no things before Jesus, as he was the beginning of the creation of things, the "first thing". But certainly in the sequence of things, before "time", there was the Father and there was not the Son. Then the Father begat the Son. The hieroglyphic sentences at the beginning of Genesis actually depict this quite graphically, but this is not common knowledge. Because Jesus says it, it is correct. Trinitarian belief needs to be corrected to this truth stated by Jesus.

***Works (or "workes"). The KJV translators were Anglicans, not Lutherans. We will see Jesus throughout revelation and the Gospels telling people they will be judged by their works, and the KJV faithfully reflects that. Luther's German translation, not the English, says " Faith ALONE", but that only appears in the German, not in the KJV, and certainly not in the original Greek. The KJV is chock full of works, such that it becomes unpleasant for the one who has bought Luther's argument that works are irrelevant, or that men can't do good works without faith in Jesus. The KJV says otherwise. Recall, please, that Jesus is not talking to the world, he is talking to the people who are already Christian, the church in Laodicea, and telling them that he will spew them out of his mouth, despite their faith. "Once saved always saved?" Nope. Not according to Jesus.

Final Note: I said I would use the KJV. This is the KJV. Later updaters CALL their updates "the KJV", in order to claim the prestige of the original, that what they have done is "the same thing." But the modern English "KJV" is not the same thing. If you believe that the KJV translation was inspired, then THIS is the only inspired text Modern, "KJVs" are new translations, not the KJV. So, I will stick with the KJV. Do I PERSONALLY think that the KJV is an "inerrant inspired translation"? No. But you do, so I've gone ahead and accepted that for these purposes. I'll use the KJV. There's nothing in the parts of the KJV that we will be reading - the words of Jesus - where the Greek conflicts with it. There are only little things, like "angel" or "blessed", words where, in Greek there's just one word that conveys a meaning, but by the time English developed there were two or more words that convey different meanings, one secular, and one religious. This was not the case in Greek. The English translators chose the religious meanings, which imparts something specific to the text that isn't really there in the original. But I am fine with the limited English meanings. Yes, what Jesus says encompasses that. He is actually saying MORE, because the Greek captures the secular meaning also.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-08   11:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A K A Stone (#30)

Revelation 3:7-12 (KJV)

"And to the Angel of the Church in Philadelphia write, These things saith he that is Holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of Dauid, he that openeth, and no man shutteth, and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy workes: behold, I haue set before thee an open doore, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word,* and hast not denied my Name.

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Iewes, and are not, but doe lie: behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feete, and to know that I haue loued thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepe thee from the houre of temptation, which shall come vpon all the world, to try them that dwell vpon the earth.

Beholde, I come quickly, hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crowne.*

Him that ouercommeth,* will I make a pillar in the Temple of my God, and he shall goe no more out: and I wil write vpon him the Name of my God, and the name of the Citie of my God, which is new Hierusalem, which commeth downe out of heauen from my God: And I will write vpon him my New name."

Notes:

In three places I have marked with an asterisk the key theological points Jesus is making here. He knows their WORKS, and rewards them for that. And at the end, he says that he who OVERCOMES will have the prize. This is all works, acts, doing, triumphing by doing what one ought. He speaks of "keeping his word". We are going through his word, and we will find again and again and again Jesus talks about what he wants you to DO, and NOT DO. I used to have a Lutheran girlfriend, who went to a Lutheran school and was, with her sister, fully taught up in their doctrines, and believed them. Her attitude about sex (premarital, we were teenagers) was much more casual than mine. To her, it was not complicated. She was "born again", and therefore forgiven all her sins. "Once saved, always saved." I had not read the Bible yet, but was simply going on instinct. My instincts (which were from the Holy Spirit) told me that cannot possibly be right. As I got older, I did read the Bible, and honing in on Jesus, I see very clearly that it was not right, at all. That is simply not what he said.

Now, in saying that, I collide with vast swathes of Christianity. So what? How can anyone read what Jesus said to the church in Philadelphia, or the parts later in Revelation when he lists the sins that will get you thrown into the Lake of Fire, or his incessant urge to overcome, to conquer, and think that he is simply asking you to believe that he is the Son of God? Every single person IN all of the Churches to whom he sent letters believed that he was the Son of God! He's not writing to the world, he's writing to CHURCHES, for God's sake! He's writing to the angels of these Churches, the messengers who have the authority to teach what he said to others, and he's telling them point blank to keep doing their works, if they are doing good, and to stop doing works that are not good. He says he will judge you based on your works. He does not say he will judge you on your faith alone. Never.

This is the central point of my annoyance with Protestantism. The Protestants with whom I have discussed this and debated this in the past sound like Watchman, and my old girlfriend and her sister. But it's not just them. There is a stubborn certitude that what is required is a dramatic moment when on is "Born Again", and that THIS has to happen FIRST, and that WHEN it happens one "puts on the new man" and does not sin again, and starts doing good works (can't do them before. they don't count if you do), and that IF you fall, that is evidence that the original conversion was not really sincere.

Putting this as politely as possible, that's a great general theory of religion, of how everything works, and hundreds of millions of people believe that. It just is not what Jesus said, at all, ever, anywhere. A whole vast religion calls itself "Christian", but simply IGNORES Jesus and believes what they want to believe, which is very different, and rather contrary in spirit, to what he actually said.

My criticism of the Catholics and the Orthodox is different. They do not get this part wrong. They focus on Jesus pretty well. But then they add volumes, libtary wings! of ADDITIONAL stuff, that Jesus did NOT say, and say that it's all mandatory because the Church says so, and that the Church is the ultimate guide and guarantor of souls. And in the process, many of these traditions directly contradict Jesus. Most dramatically, all of the men and women murdered by the Church over the years as witches and heretics. Jesus said that MURDERERS have their part in the Lake of Fire. If you are burning a witch, you are a murderer by definition. Jesus did not say, "Well, except for witches...". In fact, when it came to sexual sin, of the sort that YHWH said deserved the death penalty in the Torah, Jesus said "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone. Fact is, killing somebody is a black act, pure evil. And if you're doing it in the name of Jesus, you have not only completely disregarded what he said, you have damned yourself to hell based on what he said!

The Catholic and Orthodox, and Protestant, Churches stopped killing people, but they won't admit they were wrong to have done it in the first place. They hedge, shuck and jive and say "different times". Jesus spoke these words 2000 years ago, long before the Churches existed to burn people. And yet they did burn people, LIBERALLY. The Lutherans burnt 100,000 people in Germany. The Calvininsts in Scotland burnt 20,000. This is not excusable, and I will never let up on it until my interlocutor admits to himself, to me, and to Jesus that historically their church was wrong - dead wrong - and did great evil.

And of course if the Church did great evil then, could be THAT wrong, they can still be that wrong about anything else. I assert that whenever they are doing anything that is different from what Jesus said, they are wrong. OF COURSE they are wrong! Jesus was the Son of God. Nobody else is. This is True Faith in Jesus' word: that you actually rely on it to obliterate the traditions of men that contradict it.

What he said to the Church in Philadelphia: I see what you do, and you do good. Keep doing good, don't let others lead you astray, and if you do good all the way to the end, I will reward you.

That's it, that's all. It dumbfounds me that Christians will argue - really quite viciously, for any other belief set. But they DO. Lord do they!

Hopefully you will agree with Jesus, and we can move out smartly and see him say the same things over and over and over again, really beat it in there, if there were any doubt. He's already said the same thing to two churches. One he praises, Philadelphia, and one he criticizes, threatening to spew them out of this mouth, to reject them - to reject a Church and turn his back on them - because their acts are lukewarm.

How can ANYBODY read this and say "Once saved, always saved? Works are unavailing? And Faith Alone?" It's perverse. It's directly contrary to what Jesus is saying, which is to say, if you're a Trinitarian, it's directly opposed to what God Himself said.

Why do that? It is incomprehensible to me. If you don't believe Jesus was Lord, or Divine, then don't follow him. But if you DO say he was, then why do you then substitute your own made-up doctrines for what he said? I just don't get it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-08   15:37:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

I will make them to come and worship before thy feete, and to know that I haue loued thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepe

Looks as if there are some typos. Did you type it yourself? If you did that is a lot of work. I would cut and paste from Bible Gateway or something. You can always proof read and make sure it is accurate.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   15:58:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

But "blessed" has a wholly religious connotation that "makarios" does not have.

I just go with what the King James says.

But here is what google said

Makarios was the supreme blessing. Makarios is used in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) to describe the results of living right. It was the state of the righteous. If you enjoyed the blessings of this world, it was because you had been living right. You were being blessed.Jun 17, 2021

www.google.com/search? q=MAKAORIS+BLESSED+MEANING&oq=MAKAORIS+BLESSED+MEANING&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvb WUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDc0MTNqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:03:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: All (#36)

Also to your post 32. To me it seems when people try to reinterpret the Bible in better words. That means they don't have faith in God being able to give us his word.

All the mumbo jumbo is above my pay grade.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:05:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

In three places I have marked with an asterisk the key theological points Jesus is making here. He knows their WORKS, and rewards them for that. And at the end, he says that he who OVERCOMES will have the prize. This is all works,

I would say a prize above salvation. Still not of works lest any man should boast.

That is my take.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:13:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: A K A Stone (#37)

The problem with that, quite simply, is that the Bible is in koine Greek, not English. If you’re reading it in English, you are reading a translators interpretation.

Those typos are not typos. I copied and pasted the actual King James Bible. It was written in the English of 1611,. The “King James” Bible in modern English is itself an interpretation of the King James Bible. They are not iidentical except for updated English. Some word meanings are said to have changed.

You wanted the KJV, I am using the actual KJV. If you tell me that some later translation, in the KJV style, is ALSO inerrant, as far as you are concerned, then I will use that specific text. So, you tell me which text you will accept, and I’ll use that one.

The issues here are not issues of translation. They are issues of accepting what Jesus said.

So, tell me which Bible to use. The KJV looks like it’s full of typos to you. So what do you want me to use?

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-08   16:14:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

I will continue to read what you write. You have put quite a bit of time and effort into this. Which is commendable.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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