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Title: The Offence of the Cross
Source: The Spurgeon Center
URL Source: https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-l ... ffence-of-the-cross/#flipbook/
Published: Oct 30, 1856
Author: Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Post Date: 2022-03-30 07:34:28 by watchman
Keywords: offended, running away, talk in chat
Views: 2120
Comments: 72

The Offence of the Cross

“And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.” — Gal. v. 11.

THE religion of Jesus is the most peaceful, mild, and benevolent religion which was ever promulgated. When we compare it with any set of dogmas invented by men, there is not one of them that can stand the least comparison with it for gentleness, mildness, and love. As for the religion of Mahomet, it is the religion of the vulture; but the religion of Jesus is that of the dove, — all is mercy, all is mild; it is, like its Founder, an embodiment of pure benevolence, grace, and truth.

And yet, strange to say, gentle as the gospel is, and inoffensive as its professors have always proved themselves to be, when they have acted rightly, — not resisting evil, but submitting to it, whatever it might be, — yet there has never been anything which has caused more disturbance in the world than the Christian religion. It is not a sword, and yet it has brought war into the world; it is not a fire, and yet it has consumed many old institutions, and has burned much that men thought would last for ever; it is the gospel of peace, and yet it has parted the dearest friends, and caused direst feuds and confusions everywhere. Though in itself it is all gentleness, yet it seems as if the standard of the dove were the standard of battle, and as if raising up the peaceful cross had been the signal for war, like the blood-red fiery cross, which of old they passed through Scotland, to summon the clans to battle. Strange, yet strangely true is it, that the cross of Christ has always been an offence, and that it has provoked the fiercest battles and the sternest strifes which men have ever had with their fellow-men.

In considering our text, I shall, first, discourse to you a little concerning what “the offence of the cross” is; secondly, as to how men show their offence against the cross; thirdly, I shall have a little to say to those who are offended at the cross, to show them their folly; and, lastly, I shall conclude by an inference or two, for the special benefit of Christian ministers, and the Church at large.

I. Let us enquire, first, WHEREIN DOES THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS CONSIST?

Our limits forbid any attempt to be elaborate, and we commence by saying that “the offence of the cross” lies, first, in the way in which it deals with all human wisdom. The philosopher puts his glass to his eye, looks at the cross, and then says, “I cannot see anything so very wonderful in it, — even with this splendid glass of mine, — more than can be seen by that poor, humble peasant; I do not care about such a system of religion as that; any simpleton can understand the cross.” So he passes by, and merely sneers at it. The man who loves controversy comes to the gospel, and finds that there is in it pure dogmatism. Such things are said to be true, and sinners must believe them, or else be damned. “I shall not do so,” says he; “I shall not yield implicit faith to the gospel; I like disputing upon points of doctrine; I like controverting them; I shall not listen to your preacher who says, ‘This is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.’ I will not hear the man who speaks thus authoritatively; I like men who will give me margin enough to doubt, who let me believe what I like, and no more; I prefer to use my reason and common sense.” When you come to talk with him about the religion which says, “Believe that, or else be lost; believe that, or else be shut out of the pale of salvation;” he turns on his heel, and says, “I will not believe any such thing.” And when he asks what it is he is to believe, he professes himself to be wiser even than the Word of God. “What!” says he, “believe in the atonement? I can’t; it is contrary to my common sense. Believe the doctrine of election? Why, it shocks my humanity! Believe in the total depravity of human nature, and the impossibility of being saved without being born again? Why, I cannot receive such teaching for a single moment. It is contrary to all that the schoolmen ever taught, and different from what any philosopher ever would have invented; so I shall not receive it.” And he turns away with an anathema against the cross. He cannot bear it because of its great simplicity. If he could describe it as being so wonderful that he could by no means make the common people comprehend it, and that it was only because of his gigantic intellect that he was able to understand it himself, he would not mind accepting it; but as it is so plain and simple, he turns away from it in disgust. He cannot bear the gospel of the cross; it has not worldly wisdom enough in it for him; and he either does not know or he forgets that the knowledge of Christ crucified is the most excellent of all the sciences, and that never is reason so glorified as when it humbly sits down under the shadow of the cross.

But there is something in the cross of Christ which hurts men’s pride even more than this, and that is, it is opposed to all their notions of human ability. The man who is relying for salvation on his own strength, does not like the doctrine of the cross. If anyone preaches a gospel which tells the sinner that he has power to save himself, if he preaches a gospel which says that, Christ having died to put all men in a salvable condition, they have only to exercise the power they have, and they will be able to deliver themselves, — if a man thus preaches something which exalts the skill and strength of the creature, he will never offend his unregenerate hearers. But if he once begins to cast the sinner down in the dust, and to teach that Christ himself taught, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him;” and that, in the Scriptures, all men are declared to be “dead in trespasses and sins;” then the proud sinner will turn away, and say, “I am not going to be so insulted, to have all my powers levelled to the ground! Am I to be made into a mere machine, or into a piece of clay, and to lie passive in the Potter’s hands? I will not submit to such an indignity.” If the minister will give him a little to do himself, and let him sacrifice a little to his own idol, he will drink down the false doctrine as the ox drinketh down water; but since we tell him he is powerless, like the poor blooding man when the Samaritan met him, he says, “I will have nothing to do with you.”

And the cross offends men yet again, because it goes clean contrary to their ideas of human merit. There is not a soul in all the world that, by nature, loves to be stripped of all merit. No! the last thing a man likes to part with is his righteousness. I have known poor sinners stand on Sinai’s top until their knees knocked together, yet they have clung to their self-righteousness even there. I have known men stand where God’s earthquakes were shaking the ground under their feet, and the thunder and lightning were playing above their heads; yet they still held fast their self-righteousness. It is a hard thing to get that away from men. You know how Bunyan says that, when Great-heart slew Giant Despair, the giant “had, as they say, as many lives as a cat and I am sure that self-righteousness has many more lives than that; it is the hardest thing in the world to kill. You may cut the evil weed self- righteousness up; but when you think you have got to the last root of it, it will be shooting up again before you can sharpen your knife to cut it up once more. This evil thing is bred in man’s nature. When you preach against it, see how men will roar at you; they cannot bear that doctrine.

I sometimes receive letters from persons who say, “We should not wonder if all your congregation were to live in sin, because you are always preaching against man’s righteousness, and inviting poor sinners to come to Christ by simple faith, and be saved by grace alone.” I daresay they would not wonder if such a thing were to happen; but I should wonder if my people, as a whole, did live in sin, and I bless God that I have no cause to wonder about that matter, for a holier people you will not find this side heaven than those who receive into their hearts the doctrine of Christ’s imputed righteousness. This I will say of them, that grace hath wrought in them good fruits; that they do walk in the fear of the Lord, in love to one another, and in the practice of uprightness and godliness. But men of the world cannot bear this teaching, because it makes nothing of the merits of which they think so much. Tell men that they are very good sort of folk; they will like to hear that. Give people a good conceit of themselves, and they will like to listen to you; but that self-conceit is the ruin of tens of thousands. I am sure it is only when we begin to say, —

“I’m a poor sinner, and nothing at all, But Jesus Christ is my All-in-all,” —

that we are saved. But as long as we are content with ourselves in our natural sinful condition, there is not the slightest hope for us. So, you see, this is “the offence of the cross,” that we do not let men trust in their own merits.

But there is another offence, which is a very sore one, and the world has never forgiven the cross that “offence” yet, it will not recognize any distinctions between mankind. The cross makes moral and immoral persons go to heaven by the same road; the cross makes rich and poor enter heaven by the same door; the cross makes the philosopher and peasant walk on the same highway of holiness; the cross procures the same crown for the poor creature with one talent that the man with ten talents shall receive. Hence, the wise man saith, “What! am I to be saved by the same cross which saves a man who does not know his letters?” Your fine lady asks, “Am I to be saved in the same fashion as my servant-girl?” The gentleman says, “Am I to be saved the same way as that chimney-sweep?” And he who boasts of his self-righteousness cries, “What! am I to jostle against a harlot, to elbow a drunkard on the road to heaven? Then, I will not go to heaven at all.” Then, sir, you will be lost. There are no two roads to heaven; it is the same road for everyone who does go there; and hence, the cross has always been offensive to men of mark and might, — few kings and queens have ever bent humbly before it. Men have covered up the cross with some fine decoration, and they have said that they loved it; but it was not the cross they cared for, it was the meretricious ornament. If it had been the simple cross, they would have dragged it through the streets, as Mahomet’s people did with the cross at Jerusalem.

II. This brings me now to tell you, in the second place, HOW PERSONS SHOW THEIR OFFENCE AGAINST THE CROSS OF CHRIST.

In olden times, they did it by burning, torturing, and tormenting Christians, making them suffer all kinds of indescribable agonies. But that method did not answer, so the devil adopts other measures now. He found that the more he oppressed them, like Israel in Egypt, the more they multiplied; so now he acts in another fashion. How does he do it? Not exactly by open persecution; but “the offence of the cross” shows itself, sometimes, by private persecution. You do not all of you hear of the persecution that is going on with regard to the Lord’s people. Every now and then, things of this sort come to my notice, though you may not know of them. How many drunken husbands there are who persecute their wives almost incessantly because they will cleave fast to God! How many a young man, how many a young woman is there, who is called to suffer persecution from father and mother and sister and brother, for Christ s sake! Persecution is not over yet; it works slyly, and comes not out openly before the world. It comes not out into Smithfield, as it did of old, though there may be many a house in the neighbourhood of Smithfield that reeks with it. It comes not out in an honest garb, but watches for its prey in a covert way. It is not the lion, but the prowling jackal, though it is as wild and as ravenous as ever. And when persecution does not display itself in positive acts, it operates by means of jeers and scoffs, and by the shrug of the shoulder; and, let me say, more men have been ruined by this practice than by the direst slanders. Men who shrug their shoulders generally do a deal of mischief, though they may not know it. When, sitting at table, I have mentioned a person’s name, and someone has shrugged his shoulders, and said, “Oh!” the man’s character was half gone. If the person had anything to say against the other, why could he not say it right out, and not leave us in the dark to surmise all manner of iniquities? Another man will say, “I don’t wish to persecute you; you can go to chapel as often as you like;” yet there is on his face the cold sneer, and on his lip the cruel jest or slander; every idle rumour is circulated, and everything that can be invented against the minister of the gospel and against Christian people, — all still showing that there is now, as there was in the days of the apostles, an “offence of the cross.”

But I will tell you what is the favourite plan nowadays; it is not to oppose the cross, but to wind round the cross, and try to get the cross to alter its shape a little. Men who hate the doctrines of the cross, say, “We, too, preach the gospel.” They alter it; they misshape it; they make it “another gospel, which is not another.” Let others say, if they will, that yea and nay can meet together; that fire and water can kiss each other; that Christ and Belial can be twins: the true minister of Jesus Christ cannot do that. Truth is truth; and whatever is the opposite of it cannot be truth. Truth is one, and that which opposes it must certainly be error and falsehood. But it is the fashion to try to blend the two things together. Look at very many of the churches; they say that they hold the truth. Look at their articles; there are all the five points of Calvinism. And if you ask the ministers whether they believe the doctrine of election? “Certainly,” they reply. If you ask them whether they believe all the great cardinal truths of the gospel; they say, “Oh, yes, certainly we believe them; but we do not think they ought to be preached to the common people.” Ah, sirs! you have a fine notion of yourselves, if you do not think that “the common people” are as good as you are, and that they can receive the doctrines of grace as well as you can. “Oh! but those doctrines are dangerous; they drive the people to Antinomianism.” They say this; but when we write to them, they reply, “Oh, we are as sound as you are!” Yes; but it is one thing to be sound, and another thing to preach sound truth. I never will believe a man to be better than what he preaches; if a man does not proclaim “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,” we like him none the better, but ten times worse, because he says that he believes it. We would rather he did not believe it at all than that he should conceal his real sentiments. Such men, who hide the truth, prove that they are as much offended with the cross as if they openly tried to refute its doctrines. God send us the day when the pure, unadulterated doctrines of the grace of God, which is in Christ Jesus. shall be proclaimed in every chapel, and heard in every street, and received by every professed Christian!

III. Now I come, in the third place, TO SAY SOMETHING TO THOSE WHO ARE OFFENDED AT THE CROSS.

First, let me say that it is very foolish of a man who does not believe the gospel to oppose those who do. If a man does not himself love the gospel, he might let alone other people that do. You have often heard the old fable of the dog in the manger, but here is something worse, here is the dog out of the manger; he does not even lie on the hay himself, and yet he barks at those that come to feed upon it. He does not love the gospel; and because others do, he hates them. Why, surely, what you do not want yourselves, you might let other people have in quietness! You need not oppose them for carrying away what you count worthless rubbish. Why should you be so offended, and endeavour to make a stand against the truth, since you cannot, in your present condition, get anything out of it, and you may burn your fingers for your pains?

Then, next, how foolish it is to be offended at the cross, seeing that you cannot stop its progress! He who should place himself before Juggernaut’s car to be crushed, would be as wise as you who are opposing the gospel. If it be true, recollect that “truth is mighty, and must prevail.” Who are you to attempt to stand against it? You will be crushed; but let me tell you that, when the car goes over you, the wheel will not be raised even an inch by your size. For what are you? A tiny gnat, a creeping worm, which that wheel will crush to less than nothing, and not leave you even a name as having been an opponent of the gospel. There have been men who have stood up, and said, “We will stop the chariot of Christ.” Thousands have looked at them, and have been afraid. Their trumpets have blown loud and long, and some poor Christians have said, “Stand aside! Here comes a man who will stop the chariot of the Lord Jesus.” At one time, it was Tom Paine; then it was Robert Owen; but what became of them? Did the chariot stop for them? No; it went on just as if there had never been a Tom Paine or a Robert Owen on the earth. Let all the infidels in the world know assuredly that the gospel will win its way, whatever they may do. Poor creatures! their efforts to oppose it are not worthy of our notice; and we need not fear that they can stop the truth. As well might a gnat think to quench the sun. Go, tiny insect, and do it, if thou canst. Thou wilt only burn thy wings, and die. As well might a fly think it could drink the ocean dry. Drink the ocean, if thou canst; more likely, thou wilt sink in it, and so it will drink thee. Ye who despise and oppose the gospel; what can ye do? It cometh on “conquering and to conquer.” I always think that, the more enemies the gospel has, the more it will advance. As the old warrior said, “The more enemies there are, the more there are to be killed, the more there are to be taken prisoners, and the more there are to run away.” Double your hosts, ye opposers! Come on against us with a still mightier power! Rage yet more loudly! Slander us yet more foully! Do what ye can, victory is ours, for it is predestinated. The massive column of Divine Predestination standeth firm, and on its top there are the eagle wings betokening victory for every believer, and for the whole Church of Christ. God’s truth must and shall conquer; wherefore, then, dost thou, foolish creature, hope to oppose the gospel because it offends thee? The stone, cut out without hands, cannot be broken by thee; but if it falleth upon thee, it will grind thee to powder.

But another thought, and I have done with this part of my subject. O man! if thou hatest the gospel, let me say to thee solemnly how doubly foolish thou art to be offended with Christ, who is the only One who can save thee! As well might the drowning man be offended with the rope which is cast to him, and which is the only means of his escape; as well might the dying patient be offended with the cup of medicine which is put to his lips, and which alone can save his body from death; as well might the man whose house is burning be offended with the fireman who roughly puts the fire-escape against his window, — as that thou shouldst be offended with Christ. Offended with him who would snatch thee as “a brand from the burning”? Offended with him who alone can quench for thee the fire of hell? Offended with him whose blood alone can wash thee white, and give thee a place with him in glory everlasting? Offended with him? Then thou art mad indeed. Not Bedlam itself can produce a maniac more foolish than thou art.

Ah, ye despisers, ye shall wonder and perish! You are offended with the gospel because it says that you have not any merit; but you have not any, then why are you offended? You are offended at the gospel because it does not ask anything of you in order that you may be saved; yet, if it did demand anything of you as a condition of your salvation, you would be lost. It is just the gospel for you; it is made on purpose; it fits your condition; it is adapted to your case; — and yet you are offended with it! Oh, how can you be so foolish? Did you ever hear of a man who was offended with a coach that was carrying him, because it had wheels? Why should you be offended with the gospel chariot because it could not advance except on the wheels of free grace? What! you are offended with the gospel because it lays you low? Don’t you know that it is the very best place for you? The devil would have you very high if he could; but that would be only that he might ruin you. My dear friends, I beseech you, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ himself, do think why you are offended with the gospel. I know it goes against your prejudices; when you first hear it, you do not love it; but, remember, it is your only hope of salvation. Are you offended with that which alone can save you? Offended with that which can put a crown on your head, a palm-branch in your hand, and give you bliss for ever? Then, methinks, when you sink to hell, you will look up to heaven, and say, “Ah, Christ! I was offended with thee, and now I see that thou wast the only Saviour. I hated thy name, of which it is written, ‘At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow.’ I hated that Saviour who was the only Saviour to redeem sinners from sin.”

IV. Lastly, I am TO DRAW ONE OR TWO INFERENCES.

The first is this, If the cross of Christ is an offence, and always was an offence, what is the reason why so many professed Christians go on so easily from January to December, and never have any trouble about it? Old John Berridge said, “If you do not preach the gospel, you may sleep soundly enough; but if you do preach it faithfully, you will hardly have a sound place in your skin, for you will soon have enemies enough assailing you.” How is it that we never hear of any slander against a great many ministers? Everything goes easily and comfortably with them; nobody is ever offended with their preaching, but people go out of their chapel doors, and say, “What a nice sermon! It was just the thing for everybody, and nobody could be offended.” They do not preach the gospel fully, or they would be sure to offend some people. Suppose that somebody says to me, “Do you know that Mrs. So-and-so was fearfully offended with your last sermon?” That is no trouble to me if I know that I have preached the truth. A celebrated preacher was once told that he had pleased all his hearers. “Ah!” said he, “there is another sermon lost.” The most effective sermons are those which make opposers of the gospel bite their lips, and gnash their teeth. “That preaching is worth little,” Howland Hill used to say, “that cannot make the devil roar. He preaches but very little truth who does not set the old lion roaring against him.” Depend upon it, Satan does not like the gospel any better than he did, and the world does not like the gospel any better than it did; and if there is not, nowadays, so much persecution and hatred as there used to be, it is because men do not proclaim the plain, simple truth as their forefathers did. People go to hear nice velvet-tongued preachers; they like the minister to prophesy smooth things unto them. “I won’t go to hear Mr. So-and-so,” says one, “for he will be sure to offend me.” Now what is the reason for this? It is because he preaches the whole gospel, the pure truth of God. But do men imagine that we want to offend them? Nay, God knows, the hard things we often say cause us more pain than they cause to our hearers. But it is a good thing when we care little for the opinion of men, and when we have learnt to live above the world. Once let ministers faithfully proclaim the plain, simple gospel, and we shall soon hear the laughter, and scorn, and jeers. It was an ill day when the sons of God made affinity with the daughters of men; and it will be an ill day for the Church of Christ when the world speaks well of it, and everybody commends it. the sect that is most spoken against is usually the sect where Christ most dwelleth; but the sect that is lapped in plenty, and dandled on the knees of honour, is usually the most corrupt. Preach the gospel boldly, steadfastly, steadily, strongly, out-and-out, and you will not be long without hearing something about “the offence of the cross.”

My last remark is this. O my brethren, how much reason have we to bless and extol our gracious God, if the cross of Christ is not an offence to us! I hope many here can unite with me in saying that there is nothing in the Bible that offends us, and there is nothing in the gospel that offends us now. If there is anything you do not understand, you do not hate it; if it seems dark and mysterious, you do not reject it, but you are willing to learn all you can about it. Ah, my God! if all I have ever preached be false, I stand prepared to disown it when thou shalt teach me better; if all I have ever learnt be a mistake, and I have not learnt it of thee, I will not be ashamed to recant it in that hour when thou shalt thyself teach me, and show me my error. We are not ashamed to bring ourselves wholly into the mould of Scripture, to take it just as it stands, to believe it, and to receive it; and if you are in that state, mark you, you are saved, for no man can say that he accepts the gospel wholly, loves it all, and receives it in his heart, and can yet be a stranger to it. I have heard preachers ignorantly talk about “natural” love to the gospel; there cannot be such a thing. I heard someone say that there was a “natural” love to Christ; it is all rubbish. Nature cannot beget a love to Christ, nor love to any good thing; that must come of God, for all love is from him. There is nothing good in us by nature. Every conviction must, in some way or other, come from the Holy Spirit. Even if it is a temporary one, it must be traced to him, if it is good. Oh, let us adore, and exalt, and magnify the mighty grace that has made us love the gospel! For I am sure, with some of us, there was a time when we hated it as much as any people in all the world ever did. Old John Newton used to say, “You who are called Calvinists, — though you are not merely Calvinists, but the old, legitimate successors of Christ, — you ought above all men to be very gentle with your opponents, for, recollect, according to your own principles, they cannot learn truth unless they are taught of God; and if you have been taught of God, you ought to bless his name; and if they have not, you should not be angry with them, but pray to God to give them a better education.” Do not let us make any extra “offence of the cross” by our own ill-humour, but let us show our love to the cross by loving and trying to bless those who have been offended with it.

Ah! poor sinner, what sayest thou? Art thou offended with the cross? No, thou art not, for it is there that thou wishest to lose thy sins. Dost thou desire this moment to come to Christ? Thou sayest, “I have no offence against Christ. Oh, that I knew where I might find him! I would come even to his seat.” Well, if thou wantest Christ, Christ wanteth thee; if thou desirest Christ, Christ desireth thee. Yea, more; if thou hast one spark of desire after Christ, Christ hath a whole burning mountain of desire after thee. He loveth thee hotter than thou canst ever love him. Rest assured that thou art not first with God. If thou art seeking Jesus, he hath first sought thee. Come, then, thou destitute, weary, lost, helpless, ruined, chief of sinners; come, put thy trust in his blood and his perfect righteousness, and thou wilt go on thy way rejoicing in Christ, set free from sin, delivered from iniquity, rendered as safe, though not as happy, as the very angels that now sing high hosannas before the throne of the Most High!

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#1. To: watchman (#0) (Edited)

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   8:19:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: watchman (#0) (Edited)

Christianity is the religion of the dove.

Lovely.

Now if we just overlook the 1500 years of horrendous Christian bloodshed, it's even believable.

See, to me, the Cross isn't offensive. It's the behavior of Christians that is disgusting: they don't listen to their savior.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   8:20:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2) (Edited)

It's the behavior of Christians that is disgusting: they don't listen to their savior.

Apparently, you didn't even read to the 2nd paragraph.

I expect such attention deficit from Bozoboy Slim (if Mud doesn't see the word "demratz" every 10th word, his brain just shuts down), but you Vic, I expected at least an appreciation of Spurgeon's oratory skills.

Therefore, I've reprinted the 2nd paragraph so that you don't have to make any effort to scroll up to find the rebuttal to your argument.

And yet, strange to say, gentle as the gospel is, and inoffensive as its professors have always proved themselves to be, when they have acted rightly, — not resisting evil, but submitting to it, whatever it might be, — yet there has never been anything which has caused more disturbance in the world than the Christian religion. It is not a sword, and yet it has brought war into the world; it is not a fire, and yet it has consumed many old institutions, and has burned much that men thought would last for ever; it is the gospel of peace, and yet it has parted the dearest friends, and caused direst feuds and confusions everywhere. Though in itself it is all gentleness, yet it seems as if the standard of the dove were the standard of battle, and as if raising up the peaceful cross had been the signal for war, like the blood-red fiery cross, which of old they passed through Scotland, to summon the clans to battle. Strange, yet strangely true is it, that the cross of Christ has always been an offence, and that it has provoked the fiercest battles and the sternest strifes which men have ever had with their fellow-men.

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   9:05:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Vicomte13 (#2) (Edited)

The Crusades were obviously regrettable, but almost unavoidable in hindsight. And yes, much bloodshed has resulted from expansionist Forces justifying their murderous incursions in the name of God or Allah or Jesus Christ. And let know one forget Hitler's cynical use and abuse of the Christian religion to justify genocide in 3rd Reich Germany. Then, in the antebellum southern states of America, Christian pulpits defended the INdefensible practice of enslaving their fellow human beings for hundreds of years. I do NOT blame Christianity or religion per se, though, most all of these instances relate to fallible--and sometimes pure EVIL--Men (and Women) who sacreligiously MISUSE religious passions to achieve political ends via very UN-Christian means.

The Neville Brothers have a great song called, "With God On Our Side" that focuses on this exact issue...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-03-30   10:05:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Mudboy Slim (#4)

How about Luther burning 75,000 “witches” in Germany, or Knox burning 20,000 “witches” in Presbyterian Scotland, or the Anglicans, burning or hanging, drawing and quartering the “papists”, or the Catholics burning heretics, or the Puritans hanging witches at Salem. All cery earnest people, doing what tgey were doing, by the tens of thousands, to defeat the “Devil”?

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   13:26:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: watchman (#3)

The Cross has caused such mischief because assholes raise it hig and use it as justification to do the worst evils. And no matter how many times it happens, masses of people will follow it again and again into butchery and barbarism. If there was more Christian resistance to that, and there SHOULD be, well, would that be something?

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   13:30:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#6) (Edited)

The Cross has caused such mischief...the worst evils.

Question #1...Can any of this evil be charged to God (in other words, is He to blame)?

Question #2...Could He have done things any different?

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   16:15:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: watchman (#7)

To a degree. It was all done in his name, by all of the major churches of the time. All eagerly did so, because of the way that they all interpreted the message.

Now, I will grant that they all interpreted it wrong. Right now, we see Patriarch Kyrill of Russia doing the same thing, piously backing Putin.

Which then leads us to question 2: of course God could have done things very differently. He chose not to. And he still chooses not to.

So what has developed over time, post-1918 and accelerating, is a widespread abandonment of Christian religion. The religion itself has been so offtrack, and done such terrible things for so long, that people have ceased to trust it and its leaders. And so the religion has shrunk.

That doesn't perforce mean that people have stopped believing in God. Some have, but many more just reject the churches as speaking for God. I believe in God as strongly as you do, but I will forcefully challenge idiot beliefs about God that are preached from pulpits by men who have no business speaking for God.

Churched Christians lack the humility they should have, given how badly they have read Jesus and done what he said. But they just blunder on foreard, bloviating their nonsense, instead of stopping and taking stock.

I'll stop now, and prepare for exhibit a of EXACTLY what I am talking about, as various angry Christians presume to yell at me, a Christian, for telling the truth about the past and about Christian behavior.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   17:10:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: All (#8) (Edited)

Let me give you one example.

How did Jesus say that a man would be forgiven by God for his sins?

(a) Believe in the blood of him, Jesus Christ, sacrificed on the Cross? (b) Confess the sins to a priest? (c) Forgive other people their sins against the man, with the degree of forgivenenss by God based on the degree of the human's forgiveness of other men?

(a) is the answer Paul gave, adopted by the Protestants. (b) is the answer that the Catholic and Orthodox Church give. (c) is the right answer, what Christ said.

If you don't believe, that, go read Jesus (not Paul - Paul says something very different - and far easier - than Jesus says, and JESUS us the Son of God, Paul is not).

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   17:13:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: All (#9)

Let me give you a second example.

A man dies. What happens next?

(A) He is judged, and sent to eternal heaven or to eternal hell based on divine judgment of his sins, venial and moral.

(B) he is judged, and sent to eternal heaven or to eternal hell based on his sins, and EVERY sin is a mortal sin.

(c) he is judged, and goes to eternal heaven or eternal hell based on whether or not he belives in Jesus Christ.

(d) He is judged based on his sins, and he proceeds to either paradise or to gehenna, where he remains until his sins have been paid.

Well?

(A) Is the position of the Catholic Church today. (B) is the position of some of the Protestant Churches. (C) is the position of most Protestant Churches, and the old Catholic Church. (D) is the right answer. It is what Christ SAID.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   17:44:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: All (#10)

Now let me ask you: why are you angry with me? Why? I have faithfully read and reported what Christ said. It is not what Paul said - Paul said different, and contradictory things. It is not what the Churches teach. But it is exactly what Christ said. So, why are you angry with me for upholding what Christ SAID?

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   17:45:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13, MUDmonSKY, DiscoDave, BenKirby Franklin, Stumpy (#5) (Edited)

Spanish Inquisition...the list goes on and on...but the inarguable benefit of human spirituality and the belief in something greater than ourselves has FAAAR outweighed the downside of the misapplication of religious fervor, imho. Without the civilizing influence of organized religion throughout the last few Millenia, Mankind would be in much worse shape than that in which we now find ourselves.

Reckon you gotta take the Bad with the Good, but if those of US WeThePeople who ain't agnostics or atheists can come together in some lasting Interfaith way, a lot of Good can come out of it as WeThePeople reject the Godless Marxist RATZ who threaten to destroy all that is Good and Just in America, and the World.

Everybody KNOWS ALL Dem DeeCee SwampRATZ LOOOVE Marx and Satan...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-03-30   18:10:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Mudboy Slim (#12)

Ok. Sure. Im a Christian. Who here wants to come together woth me?

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   18:38:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#8)

To a degree. It was all done in his name

So you give me legal advice not to rob people. You tell me the consequences.

If I go out and rob someone and say I'm doing this in Vicomte13's name...are you in anyway culpable? Could you be convicted of as a partner in crime with watchman?

of course God could have done things very differently. He chose not to.

What could He have done differently? What is a "for instance"?

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   18:38:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: watchman (#14)

He could make the existence of Gos as obvious to people through tge ages as he did at certain key moments.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-30   18:41:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

Matt 6:15 is not a CONDITION of salvation...it is an EVIDENCE of salvation

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   18:43:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

He is judged based on his sins, and he proceeds to either paradise or to gehenna, where he remains until his sins have been paid.

How does this work in practicality... with what currency does one pay for one's sins? And doesn't paying for one's own sin make Christ's sacrifice on the cross unnecessary?

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   18:46:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

why are you angry with me? Why? I have faithfully read and reported what Christ said. It is not what Paul said - Paul said different, and contradictory things.

First, not angry with you or anyone. Just the opposite.

Second, I'm not so sure that you have faithfully read/reported what Christ said. You have in my estimation taken a hard saying of Christ out of context, and "camped out on it", made it a "hobby horse". If another verse would bring balance to your hobby horse you dismiss that verse with "oh, that's not the red letter words of Jesus" (I'm paraphrasing). To top it off you wind up your argument with "Jesus said that in such- and-such a language that's only understandable to me".

Now, I have to say, that does tend to make me a tad angry when you keep shifting the ground ever so slightly as to make me feel like I'm trying to nail jello to the wall. But I always forgive you so as to not lose my salvation :-) [I'm flat broke and can't buy my way out of Gehena!]

It is not what Paul said - Paul said different, and contradictory things.

No, he did not. The whole argument "Paul's writings are not inspired" does not hold up in the least. The final recognition for inspiration of Scripture goes to the Body of Christ who reads Paul's letters...and gives the "Amen". Nothing can undo that.

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   19:09:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

He could make the existence of Gos as obvious to people through tge ages as he did at certain key moments.

There's an old hymn that begins with...

What more can He say than to you He hath said...

watchman  posted on  2022-03-30   19:28:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: watchman (#19)

God has spoken with me, several times. There’s no question he exists. If he can do tgat for me, he can do tgat for everyone else too, making it easy for tgem to believe. But he doesn’t. That’s on him, not on the people.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-31   0:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Vicomte13 (#13)

It's happening as we speak, my friend...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-03-31   6:53:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#20)

God has spoken with me, several times.

What did he say?

watchman  posted on  2022-03-31   8:14:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Vicomte13 (#13)

Mud said: come together in some lasting Interfaith way

Vic said: Im a Christian. Who here wants to come together

You're in luck...there is an interfaith movement taking place right now.

It's called the One World Religion, to go along with the One World Government, the One World Currency, etc.

Pope Francis is one of the leaders. Billy Graham would be, too, except he's dead.

Set to open in 2022, this place is under construction...

watchman  posted on  2022-03-31   11:52:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: watchman (#23) (Edited)

A building with lights and a lot of boring music? Pass.

The key is the content of the message.

Putting Judaism, Christianity and Islam together doesn't work, because each alleges that God said and meant different things.

I don't have to worry about the Jews - I'm not one, and they don't bother me. Muslims have tried to blow me up; I DO have to worry about them. They are a hostile, deadly force.

I live in Christendom. I observe that Christians have their own set of beliefs, largely shared, with variants, but that those beliefs are generally not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught a different set of precepts, and the differences are important - crucial, really.

A Church that followed what Jesus taught would not teach the things that Christians believe, and would focus on very, very different things in its daily praxis.

I have found Christians to be singularly uninterested in what Jesus said. I find that shocking, and it angers me.

But I have lived a long time, and have spent many years now reminding people what Jesus actually taught. Ignorant people bellow at me that I am wrong; I dismiss them.

More intelligent people recognize that I am absolutely correct, teaching VERBATIM what Jesus taught across the Gospels and Revelation. But they don't want to do that, and equivocate on Jesus with other writers, always - ALWAYS - to the detriment of Jesus. "Yes, Jesus said that, but - Paul, Daniel, Ezekiel, Moses, Isaiah, James, John, Jude, etc., etc., etc. - said THIS, and THIS is the right way.

Which is to say that what Jesus said is wrong, and we're going to replace it with what somebody else said.

No. What Jesus said is always right, and what other people said that conflicts with Jesus is always wrong. Always.

"Jesus PLUS" religion ALWAYS ends up being "Minus Jesus", because Jesus directly addressed certain things that pertain to everything.

I used to argue this passionately. I've been abused enough by Christians that I don't even try anymore. I don't care. Believe what you want to believe. It is hard enough to do as Jesus said. To try to persuade somebody whose mind is vapor-locked on somebody else's message is pointless.

When God and I have spoken, it has largely been naturalistic and physical, as those are the things that really interest ME. I'm sure other people would talk about different things, like religion, for example, but that's not what I'm interested in, and it's not what God has talked to me about.

We, you and I, COULD simply discuss what Jesus said. That would be productive. I doubt we will ever get there, though. And I don't feel like shadowboxing my way through extraneous beliefs to FINALLY get to the real stuff, MAYBE - probably not. It's a waste of my time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-31   12:21:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Vicomte13 (#24)

A Church that followed what Jesus taught would not teach the things that Christians believe, and would focus on very, very different things in its daily praxis.

Can you give me a couple of examples where what Jesus said is different than what Christians believe? How about two or three examples?

We, you and I, COULD simply discuss what Jesus said.

Fair enough, but please answer the first question above before we get to simply what Jesus said.

what God has talked to me about.

Can you paraphrase what was said? What tone? What language? Where were you and what were you doing at the time? Details are important.

watchman  posted on  2022-03-31   13:31:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Vicomte13 (#24)

Tis a waste of time...

Dittos...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-03-31   14:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Vicomte13 (#24) (Edited)

Constructive dialog is simply beyond the capacity of many folks who frequent political chat forums. Some posters simply ain't the sharpest knives in the silverware drawer, while many others are simply time-sucking Disruptors who ain't worth what I just flushed down MUDZ Commode...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-03-31   14:49:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: watchman (#25)

God and I did not exactly communicate in English. It was in fill brain images that I understood in English. He has used a couple of English expressions - my name, for example, or “You have your answer.” And “I work on my nature through my nature”, which is incomprensible with the context, but which was a very clear denoument to the conversation at the time. (I was asking God to DO something specific, and he grabbed my hand and did it, as opposed to “poof” doing it. Obviously he COULD have done it any old way, but he chose to use my arm and hand to do it. We could soend hours discussing the implications of this, but I understood instantly what God was sayi g. He COULD do any old thing, but he prefers to work on things through cause and effect, and pleading for something different is pointless. The deep implications of this would require a very long discussion. Thoughts move so much faster tgan words, and while I can translate the thoughts into words, and Gos slowed down to distnctly pronounce a very few words, most of the communication was non-verbal thought to thought, at the speed of thought.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-03-31   21:09:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

Hello Vic.

C is the correct answer.

A K A Stone  posted on  2022-03-31   22:57:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: watchman (#0)

The cross is a graven image.

www.pilgrimministry.org/l...ge-the-idol-and-the-cross

goldilucky  posted on  2022-04-01   19:43:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: goldilucky (#30)

We do not need a man-made cross to symbolize our faith or identity with Christ.

And, yet, the first thing I see when I click the link...is an image of a cross in the logo.

Isn't this the place where someone says, "Oh, the irony"

The Body of Christ is truly at it's lowest point in Chruch history.

Jesus said, "I will spue thee out of my mouth". Done.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-01   20:23:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: watchman (#31)

www.biblegateway.com/pass...ah+44%3A12-17&version=KJV

goldilucky  posted on  2022-04-02   12:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: goldilucky (#32)

The cross isn't a graven image to any of the Christian churches that I know of. We do not worship a cross in any way. If a cross is displayed in a church assembly it is merely a symbol to remind us of the price Christ paid for our sin.

The Catholics come the closest to worshipping the cross as a "graven image", but even that is a stretch. It's those statues of Mary and others that creep me out.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-02   13:55:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: watchman (#33)

Anything fashioned by the hands of man are all graven images which include the cross whether carved by wood or by molten down gold or silver, and statutes of Mary.

goldilucky  posted on  2022-04-02   23:02:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: goldilucky (#34) (Edited)

Anything fashioned by the hands of man are all graven images

Nope.

Isaiah is referring to the craftsmen, smiths, carpenters who go BEYOND their utilitarian endeavors to create an idol (Heb.word u·p·e·sel) to be worshipped.

Not everything these craftsmen/artisans create is an idol...as indicated by what is used to keep them warm, or cook their food, and by extension their houses and even their artisan/art work.

These craftsmen were, however, using their skills to create idols for themselves and their clients to worship...and Isaiah is basically saying that they are stupid for doing so.

According to your interpretation of this passage your keyboard word be a graven image (idol). I don't think it is, but if you have any concerns that you might be practicing idolatry, you can jump up and down on it (while shouting Nehushtan!) until you no longer worship it.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-02   23:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: watchman, goldilucky (#35) (Edited)

Anything fashioned by the hands of man are all graven images

Nope.

Isaiah is referring to the craftsmen, smiths, carpenters who go BEYOND their utilitarian endeavors to create an idol (Heb.word u·p·e·sel) to be worshipped.

The cross represents and is a reminder of Christ's death and Resurrection. It is not a graven image because Christians do not worship it.

On the other hand a crucifix, with the image of Christ still on the cross as used in the Catholic Church, is in my opinion a graven image.

It shows Christ still on the cross as if he did not complete his work on Earth by rising from the dead.

Catholics appear to assign some magical power to the crucifix like when they use it during last rites.

Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen.
The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning.
Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.

Deckard  posted on  2022-04-03   1:45:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Deckard (#36)

I have my own issues with the Vatican and other aspects of Catholicism, but the church's focus on the crucifix as a symbol of our Lord's sacrifice does not rise to what I consider "worshipping a graven image". IOW, I don't foresee God Almighty sending down a lightning bolt to destroy the "graven image" of His Son carrying out the Duty His Father assigned Him.

T.G.I.Sunday...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-03   6:29:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Deckard (#36)

Catholics appear to assign some magical power to the crucifix

They do the same with their communion wafer and wine.

Above image is from the article: The Cracker God Of Catholicism

This article points out the reasons why the eucharist of Catholicism is nothing more than yet another idol in a religious institution that is full of idols. https://comingintheclouds.org/about-catholic/catholic- doctrine/cracker-god/

watchman  posted on  2022-04-03   16:29:44 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Deckard (#36)

The cross should serve as a reminder of Jesus's sacrifice to us. When you allow images or symbols to come before Jesus, you put them as more important than Jesus. Even God hates this.

And speaking of Jesus not completing His work on Earth, just remember that the Book of Revelations was written for this time and this last generation. The bible is still be written and the Angels are still recording all deeds till the end of days are up.

Jesus said this:

Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

goldilucky  posted on  2022-04-04   11:24:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: goldilucky (#34)

God did not tell mankind not to make statues.

He told the Jews - just them - not to worship statues. He also told them to MAKE various statues and pictures of cherubim.

So no, you're just wrong.

God said don't worship statues. He said it like this: Don't make statues to worship. He didn't say "Don't worship", and he didn't say "Don't make statues". He said the whole thing as one connected thought.

Duh.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-04   12:02:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: All (#40)

No Catholic worships a crufix. It reminds them of Christ, it isn't Christ. Everybody Catholic knows this. Idiots who hate Catholics don't know it, though God knows why they don't. It's obvious, and every Catholic they ever meet will tell them so. They're just stubborn and vicious, that's all.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-04   12:06:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

gehenna, where he remains until his sins have been paid. It is what Christ SAID.

Jesus says the opposite...that once in hell there is no passage out.

Luke 16:26 (the rich man is in Hell and the poor man is in Paradise)

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

Also, this parable is NOT about "the rich automatically go to hell and the poor automatically go to heaven".

Salvation is, and has always been, by FAITH in Jesus Christ: Old Testament people looked forward in faith to Christ dying and rising again...those living at the time of Christ looked directly in faith at Christ dying and rising again...while New Testament people look back in faith at Christ dying and rising again.

(c) he is judged, and goes to eternal heaven or eternal hell based on whether or not he belives in Jesus Christ.

Clearly, you understand the correct answer, but it is not acceptable to you. Why?

watchman  posted on  2022-04-04   23:08:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: watchman (#42)

Catholics also worship the sinner Mary.

A K A Stone  posted on  2022-04-05   7:39:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: watchman (#42)

They pray to dead Mary who cannot hear them. Such foolish people.

A K A Stone  posted on  2022-04-05   7:40:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Vicomte13 (#41)

You said you're not a Catholic. You've created your own religion where you boast about lizards and rats.

A K A Stone  posted on  2022-04-05   7:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: watchman (#42)

Nope. That is not what that parable says. Sorry. You've added things to it that you want to be there.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-05   11:08:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: A K A Stone (#45)

You bore me.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-05   11:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Vicomte13 (#46) (Edited)

You've added things

What have I added? (scratch that)

Edit: No, I haven't.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-05   12:39:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Vicomte13 (#24)

A building with lights and a lot of boring music? Pass.

Regardless of what you find boring...you will not be able to "pass". This is what you are going to get.

Putting Judaism, Christianity and Islam together doesn't work...

No, it doesn't work. But, again, this is what you are going to get. Lucifer will smooth things over for a while.

I don't have to worry about the Jews...

As long as you obey the Noahide Laws you should be okay. Any form of allegiance to Christ will be punishable by death. I'm pretty sure you'll refute your flimsy "belief" in Jesus to keep your head from being cut off.

I live in Christendom.

Well, what's left of it. Christendom is a wonderful thing when it's healthy and strong. You have enjoyed it's influences for sure. Grace, beauty, freedom, truth, morals. We Christians have really dropped the ball on that. But our failure is momentary, as Christ will judge us at the Bema Seat, and restore us. You, however, Vic...since you have fashioned "another Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:4) according to your own imagination, and therefore you have not believed Christ ("the Jesus we preached") unto salvation...your failure is going to be permanent.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-05   14:22:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Vicomte13 (#47)

Did you tell your daughter the bullshit about rats and lizards. She thinks you're a loon. She won't tell you that though. She pities you fatman.

A K A Stone  posted on  2022-04-06   7:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: watchman (#49)

You are very judgmental and sure of yourself. When you die, you'll discover that you were wrong. Until then, there's no point trying to talk with you. You think of yourself as having authority, and no human will persuade you otherwise. So be it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-06   9:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: A K A Stone (#50)

You too are very judgmental, but in a different, lower, more idiotic way than watchman. There isn't any point speaking with you about things either.

In fact, why am I even here? I happened to see Libertys' Flame stuck in a corner of the screen, and called it up. Wrote a little bit.

Interacted with three people: Mudboy Slim, watchman and you. Slim is pleasant. You and watchman each want to tell me the way things are. Unfortunately, you don't know how things are, so you're just a bully. And you bore me.

So I'm going to go away now. What's the point of even trying to communicate with people like you? Nothing is served by it. Bye bye.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-06   9:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Vicomte13 (#52)

You are so thin skinned. Jesus said to judge righteous judgement.

Have a good day.

A K A Stone  posted on  2022-04-06   15:20:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: A K A Stone (#53)

U2, Mr. Stone... it's 70+ and Partly Sunny here in Central Virginny...

Buck Fiden and his Marxist DeeCeeRATZ...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-06   15:35:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Vicomte13 (#40)

God made it quite clear as mentioned here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/pass...iticus+26%3A1&version=KJV

And yes, he was referring to making of statues and graven images.

goldilucky  posted on  2022-04-07   0:42:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Vicomte13 (#51)

You are very judgmental and sure of yourself. When you die, you'll discover that you were wrong. Until then, there's no point trying to talk with you. You think of yourself as having authority, and no human will persuade you otherwise. So be it.

The man who loves controversy comes to the gospel, and finds that there is in it pure dogmatism. Such things are said to be true, and sinners must believe them, or else be damned. “I shall not do so,” says he; “I shall not yield implicit faith to the gospel; I like disputing upon points of doctrine; I like controverting them; I shall not listen to your preacher who says, ‘This is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.’ I will not hear the man who speaks thus authoritatively; I like men who will give me margin enough to doubt, who let me believe what I like, and no more; I prefer to use my reason and common sense.” --Spurgeon (From "The Offence of the Cross")

watchman  posted on  2022-04-07   7:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: goldilucky (#55)

Leviticus 26:1...
No graven statues of stone..."to bow down to"...IMHO, practicing Catholics do NOT bow down to (aka worship) their crucifixes.

Regards...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-07   8:39:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: goldilucky (#55)

And yes, he was referring to making of statues and graven images.

You missed the part where he said "To bow down to..."

He did not prohibit the Jews from making statutes in the language you quoted. He prohibited them from making statues to worship.

What is more, the temple had great big bronze statues of bulls out in front of it, and had golden seraphim on the lid of the ark of the covenant. There were also seraphim sewn in gold into the curtain walls of the tabernacle.

Better go back and read.

It was not idolatry for the Jews to make statues and depictions of things. It is idolatry to fall down in worship before those things.

In any event, the Torah was directed at Hebrews in the desert, not all of mankind.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-08   11:17:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: watchman (#56)

That's all great. Unfortunately, we don't discuss things like that. You just tell me I'm wrong.

And Stone, who attacks my sanity, then says I'm thin skinned. The lack of interest and respect is palpable.

That I keep responding is on me. That's my mistake. I guess I keep hoping we can get past these assertions of certitude to actually get down and discuss the text and its meanings, as we have done a little with above with Goldilucky.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-08   11:19:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Vicomte13 (#59)

That's all great. Unfortunately, we don't discuss things like that. You just tell me I'm wrong.

I have asked discussion questions, but you ignore them.

You said: He is judged based on his sins, and he proceeds to either paradise or to gehenna, where he remains until his sins have been paid.

I asked: How does this work in practicality... with what currency does one pay for one's sins? And doesn't paying for one's own sin make Christ's sacrifice on the cross unnecessary?

I am genuinely curious how you believe someone pays for their sins. And why would a human being go to paradise, instead of gehenna, to remain until sins are paid? And what is gehenna?

Since you don't usually give a reasonable answer to questions, I assume you are here just to create confusion by saying outlandish things (because you don't like Christian beliefs, or, you're merely bored).

watchman  posted on  2022-04-08   11:33:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Vicomte13 (#59) (Edited)

Rational debate USED TO BE a virtue...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-08   15:05:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Vicomte13 (#59)

In fact, I have always found that those who tend to resort to ad hominem attacks are simply folks who no longer possess the intellectual capacity to debate rationally...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-08   15:08:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Vicomte13 (#59)

MOST are Marxist MORONZ...but by no means ALL...MUD

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-08   15:10:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Biff Tannen, war, Jhoffa_ (#37) (Edited)

Howdy out there in KlownPu$$yHell, Penis- Breath**...MUD

BTW...Yes, I am talking to EWE, SnowFlake Marxist minions!!

"NOW...Devolve Power Outta the Federal Leviathan!!"

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2022-04-08   15:14:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: watchman (#60)

I will answer your questions. And I will refrain from saying what I think your motivations are.

Christianity says that when the human dies, he goes to Heaven or Hell.

Jesus says that when a person dies, he goes to Paradise or Gehenna.

Jesus says that the dead do not go to Heaven. "Heaven", Ouranous in Greek, is the sky. Jesus came out of the sky, and went back into the sky. He said that no one goes to heaven except him who comes out of heaven. So, Christians MEAN Paradise when they say Heaven, but they are not saying what Jesus said. And given the stubbornness of Christians on their traditions even when they directly oppose what Jesus said, I think it is important that Christians be forced to stop saying what contradicts what Jesus said. They have to be forced to admit that their traditions are wrong, that their choices of language are deceptive.

Jesus said NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN. Therefore, if you follow Christ, don't say that people do. To insist upon it is to tell Jesus he's wrong. It's important that Christians who speak with pride about their knowledge be humbled, because all of these badly used terms they use give a different set of beliefs about the religion than Jesus taught.

NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN. Jesus said that. So STOP saying they ever do. Even at the end, in Revelation, the City of God comes down OUT of Heaven to the Earth. People do NOT go up into the sky. Not now, and not then either. Heaven is not where people go. When they die, they may go to two places: Jesus said Paradise, and he said Gehenna.

In the Greek, at Luke 23;43, he told the theif that we would be with him today in "Paradeiso'. However, in the Aramaic Peshitta, Jesus, written in Aramaic (so capturing what Jesus actually said), he said "parades", which is a an Aramaic word for the Jewish concept of Gan Eden - the Garden of Eden - which is located in Sheol (Hades).

Sheol, in the Hebrew view, is divided into Gehenna - a place of purgatorial fire and torment - and Gan Eden, the garden of Eden - paradise.

Jesus gives the same picture of an underworld of the dead - Hades - divided into Gehenna and Paradise/Gan Eden in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

A third time Jesus mentions that, at the end of the world, Hades and Gehenna - meaning Hades containing Paradise and containing Gehenna - would ALL be thrown into the Lake of Fire, after which the choices became the City of God, which came DOWN from Heaven, or the Lake of Fire, for those resurrected who failed judgement, and perhaps outer darkness (this detail is not particularly clear).

Jesus is CONSISTENT through and through. NOBODY goes to Heaven. It's Paradise or Gehenna until the end of the world, when it's resurrection, and then either the City of God for ages of ages, or the lake of fire for utter extinction. (Jesus does not say that the Lake of Fire is a place of eternal agony. It is "the second death". It COULD be agony, but it COULD simply be extinction. The text does not say.

Christians say nothing of the kind! Christians say that when you die, now, you go to Heaven or to Hell, and that either of these places are eternal. Jesus says the opposite. He says NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN. It's Christians who insist on it, and they are completely wrong. There is no basis in anything Jesus said, and he said, in fact, that men DON'T go to Heaven.

If Christians want to be stubborn about their beliefs, that's their problem. Jesus is clear. And given that, the Christians are wrong.

Paradise is not permanent. It's in Hades/Sheol. The bosom of Abraham is there.

And Gehenna? That's not permanent either. We know that it gets thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end.

And we know from Jesus that it is purgatory, not "Hell". There is no Hell. Jesus never says there is.

What he says about Gehenna/purgatory is that it is fiery and unpleasant, a prison. And he speaks of that prison in two places as a place where those who are not forgiven their sins by God will be imprisoned and suffer UNTIL THE LAST QUADRANS IS PAID.

Dying with one's sins unforgiven is a serious thing, and the penalty is steep. It is not eternal in any case, for Jesus speaks of UNTIL.

What is the conversion rate? Jesus does not say. Jesus DOES make it abundantly clear that there are greater and lesser sins, and greater and lesser punishments. He is consistent about that. It is James, not Jesus, who asserts that if you break the slightest commandment, you have broken them all. That's standard Christian fare.

But Jesus said the exact opposite of that, over and over again. He told Pontius Pilate that he had the lesser sin. etc. The concept of "lesser" and "greater" sin is meaningless if it all ends in in Hell. But there is no hell; there is Gehenna, and that's a prison where one remains "Until the last quadrans is paid".

What is the rate of payment? Jesus never says that. Some Christians say that there is no price, but that is Christians being assholes. Jesus says UNTIL twice. And the notion of how to pay is not hard. We say of criminals that they go to jail "to pay their debt to society". Our standard expressions, in English, French, Greek and Hebrew, all have the notion of "paying for crime" in prison, with the pains of prison, the restriction, the loss of liberty. Jesus adds to that the parching thirst heat and torment of Gehenna, and indeed the idea of torturers there. 'Hand him over to the torturers!' The angry king commands, until the last penny is paid.

Of course, if one is a literalist, one observers that the king and the unforgiving servant are Hebrews, and that under the law, ALL debt is forgiven in the seventh year. So regardless how angry the king is with the unforgiving servant, the money debt of all those talents will eventually be forgiven...in the seventh year under the Law. So, we are reading (assuming the King is a just man who obeys God's law) that the unforgiving servant will endure 6 full years of torture in the prison for his unrepaid talents.

Even in the story itself, there is a background of law that LIMITS the extent of the punishment.

It is Christians who assert that the punishment itself is eternal. Jesus only say that the fire never quenches in Gehenna (until the end of Gehenna). He never says that the sinner is IN Gehenna forever.

In short, Jesus gives a specific plan for the afterlife which matches the beliefs among many Jews at his time. He didn't have to EXPLAIN Gehenna or Paradise - they all knew what it was. And most Jews today also know what those things are. They are not Heaven and Hell, they are Eden and Purgatory.

Now, I could go ahead and make a personal attack against you for believing something different. You will most certainly make yet another personal attack on me for telling you what Jesus SAID, in the context that he said it, and the meanings, and the cross references.

Your pastor did not teach you this, and he was wrong. The Gospels and Revelation DO teach you precisely this, if you read them carefully and do not change the words.

But it's more reassuring to attack me than to open your eyes. So I will sit calmly by and wait for the inevitable swingeing and ignorant counter attack. I've always gotten one from your ilk, and I don't expect you can help yourself.

You COULD read and LEARN some things you did not know. Let's just say I'm not hopeful. So I will stop right here.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-08   15:17:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: All (#65)

Rather than getting personal at all, let's just stick with what Jesus said. That is the most fruitful path. The personal stuff just gets sticky and angry and useless.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-08   16:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Vicomte13 (#65)

Could you cite the verses for the above statements you've made?

I'm pretty sure I know which ones you're referring to, but it would save me, and others reading here, a lot of time and searching.

That way we aren't debated what you have said but what Scripture says.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-08   17:13:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: watchman (#67)

Could you cite the verses for the above statements you've made?

I'm pretty sure I know which ones you're referring to, but it would save me, and others reading here, a lot of time and searching.

That way we aren't debated what you have said but what Scripture says.

It will take time to do it, but sure.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-08   18:17:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Vicomte13 (#68)

Just these for now...

Jesus said NOBODY GOES TO HEAVEN.

When they die, they may go to two places: Jesus said Paradise, and he said Gehenna.

And we know from Jesus that it is purgatory, not "Hell".

What he says about Gehenna/purgatory is that it is fiery and unpleasant, a prison. And he speaks of that prison in two places as a place where those who are not forgiven their sins by God will be imprisoned and suffer UNTIL THE LAST QUADRANS IS PAID.

Jesus DOES make it abundantly clear that there are greater and lesser sins, and greater and lesser punishments

Jesus says UNTIL twice.

watchman  posted on  2022-04-08   18:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: watchman (#69)

I’ll go pull those up when I have the chance, hopefully sometime this weeken.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-08   19:27:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: watchman (#69)

I still owe you these quotes. Over the weekend I was travelling quite a bit, and had some pretty bad health issues over the weekend. I am hoping to catch up this week.

Vicomte13  posted on  2022-04-11   11:13:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Vicomte13 (#71)

had some pretty bad health issues

Sorry to hear about that.

Hope you get your health back very soon.

(No hurry on those quotes)

watchman  posted on  2022-04-11   11:30:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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