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Title: An Evangelical Battle of the Generations: To Embrace Trump or Not?
Source: Politico
URL Source: https://www.politico.com/news/magaz ... ry-falwell-donald-trump-491319
Published: Jun 1, 2021
Author: MAGGIE SEVERNS
Post Date: 2021-06-02 07:06:13 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 2996
Comments: 35

As Liberty University plots its post-Falwell future, young people want to steer clear of politics. The trustees aren’t buying it.

For years, there was an adage around Liberty University that if God split Jerry Falwell in half, you would have his sons Jerry and Jonathan.

Jerry Jr. inherited his father’s desire to be a force in American politics, and his post as Liberty University president, while Jonathan inherited his father’s gift for evangelical uplift and became pastor of his church.

Now, 14 years after Jerry Falwell Sr. died and nine months after Jerry Jr. was ousted in a scandal, Liberty is enmeshed in a debate that could have profound implications for the nation’s religious right: Whether it should keep nurturing Jerry Jr.’s focus on politics and maintain its high-flying role in the Republican Party, or begin to change its culture and back away from politics, an approach increasingly favored by younger evangelicals.

As part of their discussions, the Liberty trustees are considering naming Jonathan Falwell as the university’s chancellor—an important and highly symbolic post—in order to maintain the Falwell family connection but not their political baggage, according to people familiar with the deliberations.

[…]

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 29.

#1. To: Gatlin (#0)

Jonathan is telegenic and preaches at a quick clip, sometimes dressed in a chic plaid blazer or, as during a speech last fall at Liberty, while wearing black sneakers that appeared to be Allbirds, the favorite shoes of employees at Silicon Valley startups.

Allbirds?

...I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked...

There's your problem right there...

Ernest knows. The Church is spewed (vomited) out.

And the enemies of Christ are gloating.

watchman  posted on  2021-06-03   6:18:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: watchman, and Everyone (#1)

Allbirds?

Allbirds are really comfortable shoes that everyone in Silicon Valley is wearing. People with Allbirds tend to be techy, and are always flying drones and filming technology related reviews on YouTube. When someone wears Allbirds, people comment saying, "Dude are those Allbirds?" and they respond, "Yeah, they're so comfortable" or something like that. When you wear Allbirds, it feels like your wearing a slipper and walking on clouds. Everyone now seems to have them, and they are becoming very popular. My advice, buy a pair.

...I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked...

You are quoting Revelation 3:16 and then you say:

There's your problem right there...

For that to be “your” problem, we must first understand what is meant by: …

… Because You Are Lukewarm I Spit You Out

This verse says that if you are not fully committed to following God, you are not a Christian and God will reject you.

The verse is part of the first of four visions John the Apostle will reveal in the Book of Revelations. In this vision, John saw the risen Jesus standing among seven burning lights, representing the seven churches in Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey) in the first century: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. Jesus tells John to deliver letters to the seven churches to encourage the churches to be faithful.

This verse is part of the seventh letter, delivered to the church in Laodicea, which was the most corrupt. The people of the church in Laodicea were indifferent about whether they became better people or not because they had all they needed and wanted to be fulfilled on earth. Because of the plentiful lives they lived, the Laodiceans did not see or appreciate the importance of the poverty of their spirit.

Jesus warns that He will reject those who are neutral between whether they follow God or a false god, and that there is more hope for an open enemy of God.

Breaking Down the Key Parts of Revelation 3:16

#1 “So, because you are lukewarm…”
Jesus was addressing this message to the church, ministers, and people, telling them that there would be more hope for a heathen than for someone who doesn’t choose whether or not to follow God. He wants people to decide whether they are with God or against God, and says that there is no excuse for being indifferent. If God is real, it is the most excellent thing. If He is not, then believing in Him is vile. We have enough information, and we should care enough for the health of our souls, to decide between the two.

#2 “…neither hot nor cold…”
“Hot” refers to people that follow God. “Cold” refers to those that reject God (atheists).

#3 “…I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”
The use of “lukewarm” and “spit you out” in this verse invokes imagery of lukewarm water turning one’s stomach and provoking vomit. Jesus is saying that lukewarm people make Him sick. By spitting those people out of His mouth, Jesus is rejecting those who do not decide whether to follow Him or reject Him.

There's your problem right there. – You say.

By quoting Revelation 3:16 and applying it here Jonathan Falwell – Are you then saying that since …

This verse says that if you are not fully committed to following God, you are not a Christian and God will reject you.

… that Jonathan is “not a Christian?”

If so – Then how so?

If not – then exactly what are you trying to say?

Please use you own words …

Gatlin  posted on  2021-06-04   5:32:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Gatlin (#3)

You've gotten hold of some poor exegesis.

The commentary at the link you provided is written by a Laodicean...so he naturally misdiagnosed himself and the rest of the Laodicean church.

The correct interpretation: the Laodicean Church is overcome with DELUSION. Read it again. Lukewarm is just the symptom...delusion is the problem.

Jesus, the Great Physician, diagnosed their illness when He said, "Because thou sayest, I am rich..."

Do you not see, Gatlin? The Laodiceans THINK they are rich...when in reality they are extremely poor.

I've used this analogy before. Imagine a beggar approaching you on the street. He's nekkid as a jaybird. But oddly, he's shouting that he's the richest man in town, and that you should admire his fine clothing. What would be your reaction? You'd immediately consider him DELUSIONAL...because he is.

But, being vomited out is not about being lost or saved...it's about losing the intimacy that the church has with Jesus Christ.

The Laodicean church caused a patient Savior to finally reach a point where He could no longer stomach them. So He spewed them out.

But we have not lost our salvation. Christ still maintains intimacy with us...albeit one-on-one.

Notice that intimacy continue here in the following verses:

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is knocking on the door of the church! Those who are fed up with the delusion will be the ones who hear Him knock, and He will come in to their presence and sup with them.

All Christians (myself included) at this present time are spewed out , as evidenced by the condition of the church.

Some of us are fortunate enough as to come out of the delusion, but it is still painful to be without the sweet fellowship of the church.

So, if Jonathan was a Christian before...he is a Christian now.

These are my own words. I have told you exactly what the Scripture says.

watchman  posted on  2021-06-04   6:40:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: watchman, and Everyone (#4)

You've gotten hold of some poor exegesis.

That’s entirely possible.

The commentary at the link you provided is written by a Laodicean.

And that is only your personal opinion.

But this thread is not a discussion on someone is the link’s critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

This article is quite the piece on the decisions facing Liberty University over the coming weeks and months.

Why do these disputes about Liberty University's future matter?

Because: So goes Liberty, so goes the evangelical world.

It is a massively influential institution among white evangelicals, who make up about one in four voters in the US.

Jonathan is conservative, but did not support Trump like his brother. His supporters hope he'd help steer Liberty - and evangelical Christians - in a new direction.

Evangelicals across the country are facing a generational divide as young people leave the church, saying they’re turned off by its politics.

This leaves Liberty University with a sticky question: should it soften its support for Trump?

And this is what the article is about – and what I am interested in.

However, I do thank you – anyway – for your comments and opinion on someone your perceive as a Laodicean.

Gatlin  posted on  2021-06-04   9:21:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Gatlin (#5)

And that is only your personal opinion.

But it is the correct one.

Because: So goes Liberty, so goes the evangelical world.

Do you mean bangin' the pool boy and snagging a pair of those Allbirds...yes, there goes the evangelical world.

Jonathan is conservative, but did not support Trump like his brother.

Well, who DOES this Jonathan guy support?

This leaves Liberty University with a sticky question: should it soften its support for Trump? And this is what the article is about – and what I am interested in.

You're not going to get much cohesive thought out of a bunch of spewed out, poor, blind, and naked Christians, evangelical or otherwise.

This is the evangelical church at this present time...literally!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEIuXb1c9rQ

watchman  posted on  2021-06-05   6:39:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: watchman, and Everyone (#9)

And that is only your personal opinion.

But it is the correct one.

And that too is ONLY another OPINION.

You saying it is correct one does not in any manner make it a correct one.

For that is simply a display of arrogance in its best form.

An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence.

The article in link was written by the Editor in Chief at ConnectUS.

She wrote about: “Revelation 3:16 Meaning of Because You Are Lukewarm I Spit You Out” on December 19.2019.

Where she specifically said in her explanation and commentary on Revelation 3:16:

This verse says that if you are not fully committed to following God, you are not a Christian and God will reject you.

The verse is part of the first of four visions John the Apostle will reveal in the Book of Revelations. In this vision, John saw the risen Jesus standing among seven burning lights, representing the seven churches in Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey) in the first century: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. Jesus tells John to deliver letters to the seven churches to encourage the churches to be faithful.

This verse is part of the seventh letter, delivered to the church in Laodicea, which was the most corrupt. The people of the church in Laodicea were indifferent about whether they became better people or not because they had all they needed and wanted to be fulfilled on earth. Because of the plentiful lives they lived, the Laodiceans did not see or appreciate the importance of the poverty of their spirit. Jesus warns that He will reject those who are neutral between whether they follow God or a false god, and that there is more hope for an open enemy of God.

Breaking Down the Key Parts of Revelation 3:16

#1 “So, because you are lukewarm…”
Jesus was addressing this message to the church, ministers, and people, telling them that there would be more hope for a heathen than for someone who doesn’t choose whether or not to follow God. He wants people to decide whether they are with God or against God, and says that there is no excuse for being indifferent. If God is real, it is the most excellent thing. If He is not, then believing in Him is vile. We have enough information, and we should care enough for the health of our souls, to decide between the two.

#2 “…neither hot nor cold…”
“Hot” refers to people that follow God. “Cold” refers to those that reject God (atheists).

#3 “…I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”
The use of “lukewarm” and “spit you out” in this verse invokes imagery of lukewarm water turning one’s stomach and provoking vomit. Jesus is saying that lukewarm people make Him sick. By spitting those people out of His mouth, Jesus is rejecting those who do not decide whether to follow Him or reject Him.

In order to show me the facts upon which you base your opinion – the one you call “a correct one” – I ask that you now parse the explanation the author gave and show me how you analyzed it into its parts to validate your opinion.

Show me where she was wrong, but most of all – Show me the evidence you based your alleged “correct opinion” on that the Editor in Chief, Natalie Regoli whose bio states that she is …

… a child of God, devoted wife, and mother of two boys. She has a Masters Degree in Law from The University of Texas. Natalie has been published in several national journals and has been practicing law for 18 years.

You stated here:

The commentary at the link you provided is written by a Laodicean…...so [s]he naturally misdiagnosed [her]self and the rest of the Laodicean church.

I remind you that the definition of Laodicean is:

A person with a halfhearted attitude toward religion or politics.

And ask that you please show me on what basis you formed your alleged “correct opinion” that Natalie Regoli is – as you say – “a Laodicean.”

Assuming that you cannot do this, I will therefore provide you with 11 more articles written by Natalie Regoli upon which you can gather evidence to support your claim:

I read these articles, and I can find nothing – NOTHING – in any of them that backs up your “correct opinion” that Natalie Regoli is a Laodicean – “A person with a halfhearted attitude toward religion or politics.”

After learning about this lady, I feel certain she can defend herself against being proclaimed a “Laodicean” by you – if we contact her here.

So, I again ask that you please justify your “correct opinion” and show where your opinion is a judgment based on facts – an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence.

And that is only your personal opinion.

But it is the correct one.

A big problem I have found among Christians is so many think they are always right.

You think this now – And all I ask is that you prove it.

Gatlin  posted on  2021-06-05   9:27:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Gatlin (#10) (Edited)

This verse says that if you are not fully committed to following God, you are not a Christian and God will reject you.

Her statement is complete error.

Being committed is not a condition of being a Christian.

"Fully committed"...what is that? And what does that even look like in the life of a believer?

Natalie the Laodicean has made the classic error: equating commitment to salvation. Rubbish.

All she has done is create doubt in the mind of the believer. "Am I committed enough?" What if I not committed enough to be a Christian? Can't you see? Natalie is doing what the devil does...creating doubt. Preachers have brow beat their flocks for centuries by suggesting they are lukewarm...because they are not "fully committed". Natalie has gone one step further. She is saying "You ain't no Christian if you ain't fully committed". Heresy.

I remind you that the definition of Laodicean is: A person with a halfhearted attitude toward religion or politics.

Where did you come up with this colossal pile of nonsense?

"Laodicea" means "laos"=people "dicea"=decision, or decide. The idea here is that "the people decide"...instead of God.

In the case of the Church at Laodicea, the people in the church have decided that they are rich, that they have need of nothing.

Wiki confirms their rich religious wealth and position:

Laodicea very early became a seat of Christianity and a bishopric. The Epistle to the Colossians mentions Laodicea as one of the communities of concern for Paul the Apostle. It sends greetings from a certain Epaphras from Colossae, who worked hard for the Christians of the three Phrygian cities of Colossae, Laodicea and Hierapolis. Asking for greetings to be sent to the Laodicean Christians, the writer requests that his letter be read publicly at Laodicea (Colossians 4:16) and that another letter addressed to the Laodiceans (see Epistle to the Laodiceans) be given a public reading at Colossae. Some Greek manuscripts of the First Epistle to Timothy end with the words: "Written at Laodicea, metropolis of Phrygia Pacatiana".

Hey, sounds a lot like Liberty University, which even you recognize as being of great importance to national religious (and political) power.

Nothing wrong with this, until this wealth and power begin to affect Christians spiritually. Christ sees His church with clarity. And what He is seeing right now is nauseous. Frickin' clowns with plaid sports coats and Allbirds. (honk honk)

Natalie is a Laodicean (and a hairy tick), and the entire church is spewed out. It's flopping on the ground like a fish out of water.

watchman  posted on  2021-06-05   13:04:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: watchman, and Everyone (#12) (Edited)

This verse says that if you are not fully committed to following God, you are not a Christian and God will reject you.

Her statement is complete error.

He says – She says.

Prove she is wrong.

Being committed is not a condition of being a Christian.

Is it not asThomas Brewer said here when speaking about Revelation 3:16 …

… God will not abide a lukewarm Christianity or a heart that is only partially His.

I understand you are saying that you do NOT need be “fully committed to following God to be a Christian or that God will abide a lukewarm Christianity from a heart that is only partially His.

If this not what you are saying – Then what are you saying?

"Fully committed"...what is that? And what does that even look like in the life of a believer?

It can be explained to you here perhaps much better than I can:

The biblical concept of commitment and what does it mean for our faith lives.

Continuing on …

Natalie the Laodicean has made the classic error: equating commitment to salvation. Rubbish.

You say that, but you need to prove that – So far, you are not doing so.

I doubt one could find words any more confusing and controversial than those uttered by Jesus in Revelation 3:15-16 to the church at Laodicea.

Christians have expressed either befuddlement or revulsion, and sometimes both throughout time – at what our Lord says to this wayward congregation.

And this will not change.

You have your understanding as to the meaning of Revelation 3:15-16 while others have their understanding.

You having your understanding doesn’t mean that your understanding is right.

You have not proven you are right and that she is wrong.

You have only shown that you have YOUR understanding …

I remind you that the definition of Laodicean is: A person with a halfhearted attitude toward religion or politics.

Where did you come up with this colossal pile of nonsense?

Here in the Oxford dictionary.

You now have a problem with the Oxford dictionary?

Natalie is a Laodicean ...

That still remains simply your opinion – And you are entitled to it.

But, nothing you have stated has proven this to be true.

Gatlin  posted on  2021-06-05   14:37:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Gatlin (#13)

Prove she is wrong.

I did. You would not accept it.

I understand you are saying that you do NOT need be “fully committed to following God to be a Christian or that God will abide a lukewarm Christianity from a heart that is only partially His.

We are saved by grace, through faith...not by commitment, or lack thereof. What you and Natalie are suggesting is that we are saved by "works righteousness".

Natalie is the poster child for the verse that says, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

But Natalie has decided (laos-dicea) that it's ok if she overlooks this verse, and proceeds to instruct us with her error.

watchman  posted on  2021-06-05   17:30:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: watchman, and Everyone (#14) (Edited)

Natalie is the poster child for the verse that says, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

That is a most ridiculous statement and extremely chauvinistic when you apply Scripture in this manner.

In the newly formed Christian congregation in the first century men were the ones given the responsibility to teach. All of the apostles of Jesus were men. Men were the ones that took the lead in congregational worship.

It was only in the Christian congregation that women were not permitted to teach; that responsibility was given to men.

In today’s world, other Scripture is used for a different arrangement that functions very well when everyone works together to worship God.

Scholars/theologians Richard and Catherine Kroeger, believe Paul did write the epistle of 1 Timothy. They present a case for interpreting 1 Timothy 2:12 as a refutation of false teaching, rather than as a narrow restriction on women's role.

Their research leads them to conclude that Paul was addressing a particular problem localized in the Church at Ephesus where Timothy was pastor of the multicultural congregation. A primary example of this paradigm permeates the book they co-authored, I Suffer Not a Woman: Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11–15 in Light of Ancient Evidence. The book presents the Kroegers' well-documented research which sheds new perspectives to this difficult biblical text. They present considerable evidence concerning newly discovered issues and problems Paul was addressing. They argue that the verse must be interpreted in light of careful exegesis of Greek word usage, the Greco-Roman customs and laws of the day, and the outside influences on the Christian churches of the 1st Century. While holding firm to a literal approach to 1 Timothy 2:11– 15, the Kroegers' research argues from the background of changes in the Greek language since the 1st century, Roman empire customs at the time the Apostle Paul wrote 1 Timothy, and the problems that the church in Ephesus was facing with pagan religions. The Kroegers maintain that gnosticism was taking hold of the Christians at Ephesus, and the women, being given less to no education in those days, were more prone to be misled by gnostic beliefs. Those authors present the case that those women with gnostic influence were trying to pass on those erroneous beliefs to others in the Church at Ephesus. Hence, their conclusion is that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a time-and-place refutation of false teaching, not a universal Christian principle for all time.

Christian men should not demean women …

Gatlin  posted on  2021-06-06   23:44:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Gatlin (#24)

Rethinking

Don't cha love that word..."rethinking".

This is liberal speak for "we'll decide".

Scholars/theologians Richard and Catherine Kroeger

Disgusting liberals...

Here's what happens when you break God's laws concerning the roles of men and women...

Looks like you'd feel right at home at Park Slope United Methodist Church.

Christian men should not demean women …

We don't demean them...we protect them. Liberals, such as yourself, are the ones who truly demean women.

watchman  posted on  2021-06-07   6:05:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: watchman, and Everyone (#26)

Looks like you'd feel right at home at Park Slope United Methodist Church.

Nah, that’s just you pulling shit statements out of your ass – Again.

We don't demean them...we protect them.

Why do you feel women need to be protected?

… such as yourself, are the ones who truly demean women.

More of your “shit talk” – Because you can show no place where I have ever demeaned women.

But irrational statements are nothing new coming from you.

Please – PLEASE – try to stick to facts and logic …

Character assignation as a last resort is an ad hominem attack is an attack on someone – when the attacker feels the necessity to defend himself from the accusation of being hypocritical or ignorant.

Gatlin  posted on  2021-06-07   7:10:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 29.

#31. To: Gatlin (#29)

Why do you feel women need to be protected?

Wow. Your comment is sad and pathetic.

Men protect women because God made them the "weaker vessel". We do not receive instruction from them. Men lead. Period.

Any aberration from this and society crumbles...as it is now.

Since you are King James Only*...

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel...

*en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Only_movement

watchman  posted on  2021-06-07 08:26:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 29.

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