Title: If A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words, Then What Do These Memes Say? (Parts VIII & I) Source:
The Potters Clay URL Source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa6ulv9aQno Published:Oct 10, 2018 Author:The Potters Clay Post Date:2019-10-07 12:02:10 by Liberator Keywords:Truth, Memes, Hmmm Views:46147 Comments:340
A little Meme action... If you haven't seen them, checkout the rest!
Get bored easily? No time to watch long videos? MEMES TO THE RESCUE! Short & Sweet.
These are found at a Christian You Tube called, 'The Potters Clay'...
These are REALLY good. Fun stuff. I promise. Spectacular AND clever. It doesn't matter what your core belief is; you will come upon several memes that will stop you dead in your tracks and challenge you.
(STRONG SUGGESTION: To adjust and slow these memes down, go to your YouTube 'Settings', then adjust 'Playback Speed to .75. It will give you more time to contemplate the meme, since they move along pretty fast.)
When you have the time, please give them all a look; I consider them a crash-course in Earth-Science Truth, Logic, and Reason.
But if you have ever been the least bit angry, or told even a white lie, you are as guilty of hell as any killer.
So Jesus was a sinner? He was known to be angry.
So was God. Right?
I know, I know.... That was "righteous" anger. That's somehow different from ordinary anger.
I'm saying it does not add up. Anger is a response to insecurity, whether "righteous" or not, therefore it does not have a place anywhere in God's resume. All this theology has been constructed around the premise that the Bible is the Word of God. It's quite reasonable in my view that much of it is simply man made. God has been ascribed being capable of anger just being a way for the leaders of the ancient world to control, through fear, the people. It's the same thing that goes on today in our modern world. Surrender your rights or else everyone in the USA will be killed in a mass shooting or by some Islamic jihadist suicide bomber.
Submit or terrible things will happen to you. Same story, different millennium.
I'm saying it does not add up. Anger is a response to insecurity, whether "righteous" or not, therefore it does not have a place anywhere in God's resume.
Uh you don't know God or his mind. You follow a suggestor hypnotist who is not God and knows nothing of God. Sorry I am not going to be PC and pretend I respect your beliefs. I don't just like I don't respect Muslims beliefs. Why would I they are wrong just like you. I'm not PC and I wont sugar coat.
It is not a sin to be angry at injustice. Say someone raped your daughter. Every normal person would be angry at that. It is not a sin and it is a natural human emotion. If you are angry at someone without just cause. Like say your angry at your mother because she didn't buy you an xbox for Christmas. That is not righteous anger.
You try to pretend you ar better than God because he got angry. That is a silly notion.
No it is not. How is someone whos daughter was raped getting angry insecure? That's just dumb.
Oh in your hypnotist model the rapist is really a good person who just had a moment of weakness. They need not ask forgiveness according to you. Well if they listen to your suggestor they end up in hell and think they are good and don't have to ask forgiveness. It's nonsense.
It is sad you abandoned your Christian faith that you don't seem able to explain how you were ever a Christian or why you rejected your previous beliefs.
e. God has been ascribed being capable of anger just being a way for the leaders of the ancient world to control, through fear, the people. It's the same thing that goes on today in our modern world. Surrender your rights or else everyone in the USA will be killed in a mass shooting or by some Islamic jihadist suicide bomber.
(Ping): "I know, I know.... That [God's justification] was "righteous" anger. That's somehow different from ordinary anger.
I'm saying it does not add up.
(Stone): "It is not a sin to be angry at injustice. Say someone raped your daughter. Every normal person would be angry at that."
Yes Ping -- There is such a proper or divinely justifiable emotion as "righteous" anger. Stone articulated it as "anger" over "injustice"; His was an extreme but good example of "righteous anger (reaction to "rape.") In God's eyes, when The Godly or our "innocence" is violated, God reaction and anger is indeed "Righteous."
"Righteous anger" may be justified in cases of any malicious violations of the person -- be it physical, mental or emotional.
The "normal anger" you alluded to; Might examples of it include un-justifiableanger -- like, Jealousy, Hate of Self/Others, Contempt, etc.?
P.S.: Yes, God's righteous "anger" and justification for it *does* "add-up." Perfectly.
What absolutely does not "add up" is the claim (or theory) that there is some un-named, self-governing Universal Law and Authority independent of The Almighty, capable of bypassing, ignoring, thereby escaping God-the-Creator's Laws & Final Judgement.
This notion is not only irrational and illogical, but runs counter to man's hard-wired innate sense and knowledge within his heart.
That's like saying the same of the process of Salvation.
If you consider yourself a Christian, BOTH those subjects are worthy of debate AND of strong consideration. (Especially because you may help someone else avoid a rather warm Eternity.)
God has been ascribed being capable of anger just being a way for the leaders of the ancient world to control, through fear, the people.
It's the same thing that goes on today in our modern world. Surrender your rights or else everyone in the USA will be killed in a mass shooting or by some Islamic jihadist suicide bomber.
Submit or terrible things will happen to you. Same story, different millennium.
Fear AND Love. (Just like any good parent.)
"DON'T TOUCH THE STOVE!!" "DON'T RUN IN THE STREET!!" "DON'T GET IN THE VAN!!"
Has the child "surrendered his rights" in these respective cases? Is the child "submitting" in these cases when he heeds the warnings of Daddy?
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." ~ Proverbs 9:10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8,9
How convenient that you have tossed out the Pauline epistles. Now you will tell me this verse from Ephesians is not the Word of God.
Question: are you trying to get into heaven by your works? So you can boast?
Yes Ping -- There is such a proper or divinely justifiable emotion as "righteous" anger. Stone articulated it as "anger" over "injustice"; His was an extreme but good example of "righteous anger (reaction to "rape.")
I disagree. We'll have to put this in the same disagree category as flat earth theory.
While Stone's example may very well be about the best example one could come up with, it still doesn't cut it for explaining God getting angry. As bad as it is, the rape of a parent's daughter invokes anger primarily for human, carnal reasons. It's a violation of sovereignty of the human body and runs the extreme risk of pro-creation which has an everlasting impact on the woman. Parent's would quite naturally... naturally... be inflamed at such a thing.
But God isn't human. We *think* God would be justly angered simply because we imagine God wearing our own shoes. We think that because we are rightly offended, and we are, that our reaction to being rightly offended is always justified, and so we bring God down to our level and decide that He, like us, can get angry and it's okay.
But God is better than that, and there is nothing that one many can take away from another man -- or woman -- that God cannot completely undo. Am I saying I'm that good? Absolutely not. But God is.
Our tendency is to make God like us, ascribing to him many human attributes. And so it is with anger, and jealousy.
I disagree. We'll have to put this in the same disagree category as flat earth theory.
You're entitled to disagree, but why mention Flat Earth? I didn't mention Newton, or his unverifiable, un-authorized, impossible theory ;-)
While Stone's example may very well be about the best example one could come up with, it still doesn't cut it for explaining God getting angry.
As bad as it is, the rape of a parent's daughter invokes anger primarily for human, carnal reasons. It's a violation of sovereignty of the human body and runs the extreme risk of pro-creation which has an everlasting impact on the woman. Parent's would quite naturally... naturally... be inflamed at such a thing.
You've touched on a few separate, overlapping issues.
1) YES, Stone's rape example absolutely helps articulates God's justifiable anger; You even help explain HIS reasons for justifiable anger: "violation of sovereignty of the human body" (by which can be claimed are in extreme "violation" of both God's Creationand a number of His Laws/Commandments.)
2) Yes, the Parents' anger is "natural," ergo justifiable; That is IF they and their sense of morality and paternal/maternal instinct (aka "hard-wire") is operating within the "normal" range, set by God Himself.
But God isn't human.
We *think* God would be justly angered simply because we imagine God wearing our own shoes. We think that because we are rightly offended, and we are, that our reaction to being rightly offended is always justified, and so we bring God down to our level and decide that He, like us, can get angry and it's okay.
Firstly, God-the-Creator made the Laws, hard-wired "good/bad & divine/evil" in our spirit. Can it be noted that to different degree we heed our hard-wired "default"? And beyond that, even attempt to "adjust" or tune it to "Human Standards"?
The issue of God's Anger vs. Man's Anger isn't a matter of divine standards being above that of mere human standards; Evil is evil at either level, by either standard. Reaction to rape is NOT in the "I'm-offended" range; It angers BOTH the Lord AND Man.
Why should any notion of "Divine" Anger be un-justifiable? ALL of the divine attributes and virtues ARE of God. They includes "anger" over "Evils," "Abominations," and Violations of God's Nature.
God is better than that, and there is nothing that one many can take away from another man -- or woman -- that God cannot completely undo. Am I saying I'm that good? Absolutely not. But God is....Our tendency is to make God like us, ascribing to him many human attributes. And so it is with anger, and jealousy.
I believe I am understanding your point (correct me if I'm wrong on your tangent) -- are you ascribing Divine Virtue as exclusive?; that you and I and Man are incapable of acting "Divinely?...because that conveys an "equality" of sorts with God?
What I really don't understand about such a position: That God is "better" than WHAT?? Would that be, demonstrating anger at Evil, -- at which must be noted is NOT "anger" based on vanity, on greed, on malice, or on hate. Now THAT again is a different anger altogether.
Question: are you trying to get into heaven by your works? So you can boast?
Why are you ignoring the direct and repeated words of Jesus, whom you claim to be your savior?
Obviously you don't believe HIM, or don't like what he said, so you go casting around to find somebody else who said something you like better.
You do not seem to even recognise how often Jesus said that at the resurrection men will be judged by their works. It's as though all those words he said were of no account, and only the words you like are. The difference between me and you is stark. There is a CLEAR dichotomy between the words of Paul, which you quote, and the words of Jesus regarding judgment by your works, which you don't seem to be familiar with (!). Faced with this dichotomy, you throw out Jesus and cling to Paul. I read BOTH, which is why I see the clear dichotomy (you don't seem to even KNOW that Jesus said men will be judged by their works, because the confected theology that some men will be while others are not is nowhere to be found in the Bible). And, faced with the clear contradiction, I - very reasonably - decide that Jesus is the highest authority. You don't even recognise what he said, but you are so desperate to lecture me about religion, you just dig yourself in deeper and deeper. And you don't actually ANSWER what I say. I point out what Jesus SAID, and you simply sidestep it, ignore it, and challenge me about Paul. I will answer your challenge about Paul: Paul appears here to contradict Jesus. Therefore, Paul is wrong here, at least on the strong sense of what he seems to say, which you seem to believe. Faced with a clear conflict, I follow Jesus. I don't "throw out" the Pauline epistles, I simply recognise that Jesus outranks Paul in every way. It's YOUR tradition that elevated every word in the Bible to being the equal of every other word - thus when God speaks that's of the same strength as when a demon argues with Jesus (if you were consistent in your application, but you are not: your tradition cherry picks to find something comfortable). I don't do that. I read Jesus, first, and place him, first, and he's clear. Where Paul, John, James, etc. agree with him, that's great. Where they depart from what he said because of some belief of their own, I follow Jesus, which is the only rational thing to do if one believes that Jesus is the Son of God. You and your tradition don't do that. You follow your preachers and your preferences. That's fine, for you. I don't go out of my way to criticise the obviously unsound and really quite ridiculous decision to follow some man over the Son of God - but I also recognise that people are not going to change their minds about things they've become stubborn about. So I leave it be. Your type actually feels superior to Catholics, and you cannot restrain your tongues, and go into full-blown judgment mode. This, of course, severs any real communications, because the cut-and-paste religion you believe doesn't even hold together logically. You believe Paul over Jesus. That's your right, but it's such a fundamentally flawed way to look at God that there's really nothing more to say. But your ilk will not leave it alone. Like Jehovah's Witnesses you have to keep pounding on the door, spouting your sacrilegious nonsense. Jesus is King. Jesus is Lord. That means that the words of Jesus stand ABOVE the rest of the words in the New Testament and are the norms. God said that: This is my beloved son, listen to HIM." Pretty simple. He said you're judged by your works. Paul said you're not. Jesus trumps. End of discussion. But you're still arguing it. All I can do is shake my head and walk away from such bibliolatry.
I - very reasonably - decide that Jesus is the highest authority.
Listen to you, going on and on.
You accept the authority of Jesus? Hear Him...Jesus speaking to Ananias about Paul...
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel... Acts 9:15
Paul appears here to contradict Jesus.
Show me some exact verses you are talking about. Then we can discuss it. Only one or two examples please. I don't have all day, you know.
Your type actually feels superior to Catholics, and you cannot restrain your tongues, and go into full-blown judgment mode.
Oh, you better believe I do. I've watched a multitude of friends struggle with that catholic stuff. Even after they have been reborn they continue to suffer from the insidious, ingrained stronghold of their catholic upbringing. I won't hold back any longer. Speaking of Jehovah Witnesses, have you ever tried to win them to Christ...it's impossible. Not so with catholics. I have led many catholics to Christ, even though they struggle as I mentioned. (Just like you are struggling right now, Vic)
I also recognise that people are not going to change their minds about things they've become stubborn about.
I'm as stubborn as a mule and kick like one, too.
But your ilk will not leave it alone.
That's right. But this is all I have time for right now. I'll be back soon to see what verses you have come up with as to those contradictions you speak of.
Oh, you better believe I do. I've watched a multitude of friends struggle with that catholic stuff. Even after they have been reborn they continue to suffer from the insidious, ingrained stronghold of their catholic upbringing. I won't hold back any longer. Speaking of Jehovah Witnesses, have you ever tried to win them to Christ...it's impossible. Not so with catholics. I have led many catholics to Christ, even though they struggle as I mentioned. (Just like you are struggling right now, Vic)
I'm not struggling with God. At all.
I'm struggling to remain polite with you.
You should already know every word Jesus said, practically by heart, before you presume to preach to anybody.
But you don't. You don't know the passages in which Jesus says, to Churches, and to people in general, that in the resurrection men are judged by their works. You don't know - and you should, because you presume to teach.
But you don't, so that's that. You're flailing around in ignorance, espousing an inferior religion. I'm uninterested.
I'll be back soon to see what verses you have come up with as to those contradictions you speak of.
I'll not be engaging in that game. You want to lecture me. If you don't know what Jesus said, front and back, then you have nothing to teach me. I'll stick with him.
I come here to see if the hard right, as your ranks dwindle and you lose on battlefield after battlefield, is ready to rethink. You're not.
Luke 18:9-14 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.read more. 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
I am Alpha and Omega ... who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.
Write down in a book what you see, and send it to the seven Churches - to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea!
Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the living one. I am he who was dead, and now you see me alive for timeless ages! I hold in my hand the keys of death and the grave. Therefore, write down what you have seen, both the things which are now, and the things which are to be hereafter. The secret meaning of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and of the seven golden lampstands is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven Churches and the lampstands are the Churches themselves.
Write this to the angel of the Church in Ephesus: These words are spoken by the one who holds the seven stars safe in his right hand, and who walks among the seven golden lampstands. I know what you have done; I know how hard you have worked and what you have endured. I know that you will not tolerate wicked men, that you have put to the test self-styled 'apostles', who are nothing of the sort, and have found them to be liars. I know your powers of endurance - how you have suffered for the sake of my name and have not grown weary. But I hold this against you, that you do not love as you did at first. Remember then how far you have fallen. Repent and live as you lived at first. Otherwise, if your heart remains unchanged, I shall come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Yet you have this to your credit, that you hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I myself detest. Let every listener hear what the Spirit says to the Churches: To the victorious I will give the right to eat from the tree of life which grows in the paradise of God.
Write this to the angel of the Church in Smyrna: These words are spoken by the first and the last, who died and came to life again. I know of your tribulation and of your poverty - though in fact you are rich! I know how you are slandered by those who call themselves Jews, but in fact are no Jews but a synagogue of Satan. Have no fear of what you will suffer. I tell you now that the devil is going to cast some of your number into prison where your faith will be tested and your distress will last for ten days. Be faithful in the face of death and I will give you the crown of life. Let every listener hear what the Spirit says to the Churches: The victorious cannot suffer the slightest hurt from the second death.
Write this to the angel of the Church in Pergamum: These words are spoken by him who has the sharp two-edged sword. I know where you live - where Satan sits enthroned. I know that you hold fast to my name and that you never denied your faith in me even in the days when Antipas, my faithful witness, was martyred before your eyes in the very house of Satan. Yet I have a few things against you - some of your number cling to the teaching of Balaam, the man who taught Balak how to entice the children of Israel into eating meat sacrificed to idols and into sexual immorality. I have also against you the fact that among your number are some who hold just as closely to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent then, or else I shall come to you quickly and make war upon them with the sword of my mouth. Let the listener hear what the Spirit says to the Churches: I will give the victorious some of the hidden manna, and I will also give him a white stone with a new name written upon it which no man knows except the man who receives it.
Write this to the angel of the Church in Thyatira: These are the words of the Son of God whose eyes blaze like fire and whose feet shine like the finest bronze: I know what you have done. I know of your love and your loyalty, your service and your endurance. Moreover, I know that you are doing more than you did at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess, but who by her teaching deceives my servants into sexual immorality and eating idols' meat. I have given her time to repent but she has shown no desire to repent of her immorality. See, now, how I throw her into bed and her lovers with her, and I will send them terrible suffering unless they repent of what she has done. As for her children, I shall strike them dead. Then all the Churches will know that I am the one who searches men's hearts and minds, and that I will reward each one of you according to your works.
But for the rest of you at Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, and have not learned what they call 'the deep things of Satan', I will lay no further burden upon you, except that you hold on to what you have until I come!
To the one who is victorious, who carries out my work to the end, I will give authority over the nations, just as I myself have received authority from my Father, and I will give him the morning star. He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the potter's vessels shall be broken to pieces. Let the listener hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.
Write this to the angel of the Church in Sardis: These are the words of him who holds in his hand the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know what you have done, that you have a reputation for being alive, but that in fact you are dead. Now wake up! Strengthen what you still have before it dies! For I have not found any of your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember then what you were given and what you were taught. Hold to those things and repent. If you refuse to wake up, then I will come to you like a thief, and you will have no idea of the hour of my coming.
Yet you still have a few names in Sardis of people who have not soiled their garments. They shall walk with me in white, for they have deserved to do so. The victorious shall wear such white garments, and never will I erase his name from the book of life. Indeed, I will speak his name openly in the presence of my Father and of his angels. Let the listener hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.
Then write this to the angel of the Church in Philadelphia: These are the words of the holy one and the true, He who has the key of David. He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.
I know what you have done. See, I have given you a door flung wide open, which no man can close! For you have some little power and have been faithful to my message and have not denied my name. See how I deal with those of Satan's synagogue, who claim to be Jews, yet are no Jews but liars! Watch how I make them come and bow down before your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. Because you have obeyed my call to patient endurance I will keep you safe from the hour of trial which is to come upon the whole world, to test all who live upon the earth. I am coming soon; hold fast to what you have - let no one deprive you of your crown. As for the victorious, I will make him a pillar in the Temple of my God, and he will never leave it. I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from my God. And I will write upon him my own new name. Let the listener hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.
Then write this to the angel of the Church in Laodicea: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation: I know what you have done, and that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish that you were either cold or hot! but since you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I intend to spit you out of my mouth! While you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and there is nothing that I need, you have no eyes to see that you are wretched, pitiable, poverty-stricken, blind and naked. My advice to you is to buy from me that gold which is purified in the furnace so that you may be rich, and white garments to wear so that you may hide the shame of your nakedness, and salve to put on your eyes to make you see. All those whom I love I correct and discipline. Therefore, shake off your complacency and repent. See, I stand knocking at the door. If anyone listens to my voice and opens the door, I will go into his house, and dine with him, and he with me. As for the victorious, I will give him the honor of sitting beside me on my throne, just as I myself have won the victory and have taken my seat beside my Father on his throne. Let the listener hear what the spirit says to the Churches. ... Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride dressed in beauty for her husband. Then I heard a great voice from the throne crying, "See! The home of God is with men, and he will live among them. They shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more, and never again shall there be sorrow or crying or pain. For all those former things are past and gone."
Then he who is seated upon the throne said, "See, I am making all thing new!" And he added, "Write this down for my words are true and to be trusted!"
Then he said to me, "It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the thirsty water without price from the fountain of life. The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me. But as for the cowards, the faithless and the corrupt, the murderers, the traffickers in sex and sorcery, the worshipers of idols and all liars - their inheritance is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
... "See, I come quickly! I carry my reward with me, and repay every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who wash their robes, for they have the right to the tree of life and the freedom of the gates of the city. Shut out from the city shall be the depraved, the sorcerers, the impure, the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices a lie!
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the Churches. I am both the root and stock of David, and the bright star of the morning!"
Is this going to be like the economics thread you promised and aborted?
I wrote you pages and pages of quotes of God directly - YHWH and Jesus. Pages and pages of them speaking directly, their words.
You disregarded all of it, as if it were not there, and continued to come directly after me, for having a mindset that reflects what their words said.
After that, I shook the dust off my shoes and stopped trying with you.
If the direct words of God Almighty do not form the basis of your beliefs, as they do mine, then I really don't care what you think.
I aborted the conversation, because you refused to acknowledge the direct words of YHWH and of Jesus.
Your political and philosophical beliefs outweighed everything that God said directly on the matter - you didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE God's direct words.
What more, then, could I possible have to say to you?
I "aborted" the thread because you're blind and deaf to God's own words. My own are of much less value. If you're not going to listen to HIM, why even TRY to get you to listen to me?
So, whether this ends up being like that economics thread or not depends on how the direct words of Jesus are received, depends on Watchman.
I've begun to quote Jesus, the Lord, extensively and verbatim. He's the Alpha - he starts the conversation. He's the Omega - he finishes it too.
What he said, that is what I accept, precisely as he said it. If you want to talk about religion with me, quote God. I'm giving you his words, in extenso. If you CAN'T make your point with the words of God, then your point is worthless and I'm not interested in hearing it.
When I was speaking to you about economics, you didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE the words of God, written out in extenso. Your own beliefs superseded God, and it was more important for you to attack me, for something you think is "wrong" about my head for quoting God directly, than it was for you to even ACKNOWLEDGE the presence of God on that thread, in pages and pages of his OWN direct words.
That was when I gave up on you and ceased to even attempt to have meaningful discussions with you about religion. You called on me to "prove my point" by citing the Bible. I did one better, and demonstrated where my thinking comes from by ONLY quoting God Almighty and Jesus Christ out of the Bible. I didn't NEED any other quotes, just the HIGHEST authority.
You didn't acknowledge the authority. You didn't acknowledge the quotes. You didn't acknowledge anything, just continued your headlong screed at me.
So I saw that with you, it's not about God at all. Well, for me, it's all about God.
Seeing we had no common ground at all, I gave up trying and walked away from the conversation.
Okay. The letters to the 7 Churches is simply that...Jesus talking to His church, His body of believers. Christ is talking about judging the works of CHRISTIANS only. This judgment will take place at the Bema Seat of Christ.
This judgment will take place somewhere between the rapture and 2nd Coming, and will judge the works and walk of every believer. It will determine rewards or loss of rewards.
No Lake of Fire or eternal damnation in this judgment.
Rev. 21:1-8 Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride dressed in beauty for her husband. Then I heard a great voice from the throne crying, "See! The home of God is with men, and he will live among them. They shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more, and never again shall there be sorrow or crying or pain. For all those former things are past and gone."
Then he who is seated upon the throne said, "See, I am making all thing new!" And he added, "Write this down for my words are true and to be trusted!"
Then he said to me, "It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the thirsty water without price from the fountain of life. The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me. But as for the cowards, the faithless and the corrupt, the murderers, the traffickers in sex and sorcery, the worshipers of idols and all liars - their inheritance is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Rev. 22:12-16 "See, I come quickly! I carry my reward with me, and repay every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who wash their robes, for they have the right to the tree of life and the freedom of the gates of the city. Shut out from the city shall be the depraved, the sorcerers, the impure, the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices a lie!
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the Churches. I am both the root and stock of David, and the bright star of the morning!"
So you took Rev. 1-3, Rev. 21:1-8 and Rev, 22:12-16, removed all the chapter and verse numbers, and ran them together...thanks alot.
Next time provide all the chapter/verse numbers!
Without chapter/verse I can't refer to specific verses, and people reading here will be confused, as well.
Rev. 21:1-8 Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride dressed in beauty for her husband. Then I heard a great voice from the throne crying, "See! The home of God is with men, and he will live among them. They shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more, and never again shall there be sorrow or crying or pain. For all those former things are past and gone."
Then he who is seated upon the throne said, "See, I am making all thing new!" And he added, "Write this down for my words are true and to be trusted!"
Then he said to me, "It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the thirsty water without price from the fountain of life. The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me. But as for the cowards, the faithless and the corrupt, the murderers, the traffickers in sex and sorcery, the worshipers of idols and all liars - their inheritance is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Rev. 22:12-16 "See, I come quickly! I carry my reward with me, and repay every man according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who wash their robes, for they have the right to the tree of life and the freedom of the gates of the city. Shut out from the city shall be the depraved, the sorcerers, the impure, the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices a lie!
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the Churches. I am both the root and stock of David, and the bright star of the morning!"
Of the passages you have presented, Rev.21:1-8 is not actual judgment, but is referring BACK to judgments that have already taken place.
Rev.22:12-16 is an admonition to everyone: make sure you find yourself in the right judgment! There will be judgments for those who BY FAITH have washed their robes in the atoning blood of Christ...and the rest, who's (faithless) works will be insufficient to attain the right to the tree of life.
When you read "Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared", this is obviously a future time BEYOND the Great Millennium (the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth).
Primarily, Christ is referring back to the Bema Seat Judgment for BELIEVERS, and also the Great White Throne Judgment for UNBELIEVERS (Rev. 21:11-15).
Note: there are at least seven judgments that have taken place by the time you read Rev.21. Those judgements include the judgment of Christians who were martyred in the Tribulation, the Old Testament Saints, the Sheep/Goat judgment, Satan/fallen angel judgment, ect. I can point these judgments out to you with Scripture references but it gets a bit lengthy for this forum.
To reiterate, salvation is not by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Note: there are at least seven judgments that have taken place by the time you read Rev.21. Those judgements include the judgment of Christians who were martyred in the Tribulation, the Old Testament Saints, the Sheep/Goat judgment, Satan/fallen angel judgment, ect. I can point these judgments out to you with Scripture references but it gets a bit lengthy for this forum.
I will accept the words of Jesus as revealing what will happen, given his divinity. Jesus' revealed a much simpler structure of judgment and life after death than the complicated tarte-a-la-creme that you've presented.
Perhaps you'd like to present Jesus' version, clearly, concisely using verses with chapter and number this time;)
He can't do that. He thinks Jesus was a liar when he said all scripture was....
Vic is also a pretender. He pretends he only believes the red writing and asks you to only use red words. Then he believes this catholic cult made up purgatory and is quite domatic about it. Yet Jesus never said that in red. Or any other part of the Bible for that matter. I think Vic basically has a good heart (if I ignore his calling for the murder of all right wingers to solve the worlds problems) but he gets things mostly wrong.
Don’t kill is an absolute, except for self defense (in which case it’s enforcing don’t kill on the would- be killers. All of those other cases under the Jewish law are specific exceptions for Israel, for God ruled Israel directly.
Surely you must realize that is laughable. "It's only okay to kill if God commands us directly to do so."
I think you like and prefer the no-killing thing. I don't disagree with you or your right to agitate for any and all means of reducing the rates of killing. What I object to is people insisting that mankind is forbidden to kill by the bible.
It really is so much nicer to take a position philosophically or on religious grounds and then insist that your position is the Bible's position. That way, you get the moral high ground and your opponents get assigned the status of being either ignorant or evil or both. So it is satisfying.
How did Jesus react to violence and the means of self-defense? I think, for your argument to be valid, then it would have to come from the lips of Jesus. In red letters!
