LF: Winter and EVs

Winter – and cold weather – is just a few months away and that means more than just cold and probably snow.

It also means power outages.

Sometimes, these last for several days. Last year, for example, an ice storm in my area took down many trees and with them several power lines. The juice was off for almost a week.

How does one recharge an electric car in this scenario?

The answer, of course, is that one doesn’t. Not unless one has a whole-house back-up generator that produces the 200 amp service necessary to power the “fast” charger. Most people don’t have that kind of back-up power, because it’s expensive. The typical install is about $5,000 for the generator and supply/hook-up to natural gas, propane or diesel (which will produce “emissions” while charging up the “zero emissions” EV).

Fold this cost into the cost of your EV.

A smaller, more affordable portable generator – the kind most people who have to deal with power outages usually do have – costs less (about $600 for a 5,000 watt unit that will run a few 120v circuits and so keep the lights on and the fridge working) but doesn’t produce enough power to run an EV “fast” charger. If you need a charge, it’ll be slow.

Hours.

This could be inconvenient if you need to get someplace now. Or even soon.

Maybe tomorrow?

Just another example of the pending problems people will be experiencing once EVs are shucked-and-jived (and subsidized) into their garages.

Contrast this scenario of hassle and expense with the minor inconvenience of a power outage when your car is liquid-powered. Unless the tank is empty, you can go right now – no waiting, no hooking up to a gennie. And if it’s empty, all you need is a jug. Most gas stations have their own back-up power and the pumps will be on. Go get a gallon and you’re good to go.

It’s not just ice storms, either. There is a hurricane – the androgynous Dorian – bearing down on the east coast of the U.S. If it is strong enough and bad enough when it hits, the power will likely go off in many places. People will be wanting to flee those places, too – because in addition to the power going off, the water may be coming in. That means lots of people on the road all at once. Running out of power before you can get out of dodge is another problem EV People will be dealing with.

Which brings up a seemingly reasonable question:

Why bother?

Why accept all these hassles and expenses?

Isn’t it astonishing how eager people are to exchange something that works better (and for cheaper) for something that doesn’t and isn’t?

And they ask my why I drink . . .

Let's not forget that cold kills batteries,and once one has frozen it will never again hold a charge.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

I did a search for info and the single best summary I saw was a single comment on a forum: "The data I've seen says to expect between a 10% and 40% degredation if you freeze a fully-charged lithium battery then bring it back to normal operating temps (room temp). However, the same articles say any permanent damage is slight (1-3%). Just make sure you charge it, and use it, when it's at room temperature!".

Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/effect-of-freezing-on-lithium-ion-batteries.345524/

For the more high-end lithium batteries, they can operate at -50C through -80C apparently, with little degradation. It does seem they need to be at least above 0C to be charged effectively.

There's less data on this than you would expect. Apparently, the manufacturers are not very forthcoming with that info.

In most of North America, you have a bigger problem with EVs when you start to include the energy cost of air conditioning a car in summer (bad) or heating a car in winter (extremely bad). So if you want to cruise around with a climate-controlled vehicle, the EV's range may be cut in half from its already paltry range numbers. So your Muskmobile may have a range of 300 miles in spring or fall on nice days. But only 200 miles in summer with A/C on. Or 150 miles in winter with heat on.

Of course, you could just be a sweaty hippy in the summer running around in shorts and tanktop and flipflops so you can keep your range up. Or you can bundle up like Nanook of the north country in winter, just so you can bear to use your Muskmobile when it's cold outside. You'd be surprised how many people discovered this harsh reality only after they actually bought one of the vehicles and found themselves to be very unhappy in very hot or very cold weather.

I don't see why they even produce EVs for North America. Their use just isn't very compatible with the climate in at least 40 states, probably more.

Hybrid vehicles do solve these problems but they are more mechanically complex. So do fuel cell vehicles which solve some of the complexity issues but require the change to hydrogen fuel and the infrastructure and distribution issues.

Hybrids are the answer if you want less pollution. Even the puny hybrid battery systems put in the modern Toyota RAV4 and similar vehicles. The 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid, for instance, has a battery only large enough to power the car in EV mode for 0.6 miles, like tooling around a mall parking lot. Then the engine has to engage. However, the RAV4 hybrid is 38mpg or better, city or highway, a decent improvement for a vehicle of its class over a standard gas engine. And the hybrid is considered a better driving experience overall by car mag experts than the gas RAV4s. Driving dynamics are just better for the hybrids and they uniformly recommend the hybrid models. In the most popular trim packages, the hybrid version costs only about $800 more than the gas version.

People wonder how a hybrid with such limited battery capacity can save that much fuel: it's the start-and-stop driving and the hills. The most energy is required by your vehicle is just to push the mass of air aside for your vehicle to slide through it. The next most intense use is the energy your vehicle uses to propel itself. And generally in third place, you have start-stop driving in traffic and the impact of hills and the impact of heating/AC on economy.

It is the start-stop driving and the hills where a hybrid or EV can recover some of its mojo because they can generate power from braking to recharge their battery so that, after the stop sign or stoplight or after that sharp curve in the road, you can apply the energy you recovered from braking and use it to accelerate back to your desired speed. The gas engine vehicles have no energy recovery at all.

When it comes to hybrid vs. EV, hybrid does win easily. If you get a hybrid with a large enough battery pack, it may not have quite the mpg but you can drive it like gasoline vehicle. It may be peppier in many measures, like using a hybrid RAV4 hybrid to accelerate against an identical gas-powered RAV4 at a stoplight and the hybrid RAV4 leaves the gas RAV4 in the dust (despite the hybrid RAV4 weighing a little more).

Vic is probably smarter than the rest of us. He's our only hybrid driver here and I think his Prius has saved him a lot of money, money he'll use to pay for a daughter's sports and college and for Vic's retirement. And he's determined to drive that Prius into the ground before he gets another. Classic male thinking and you can't argue with it in terms of economics. Vic isn't keeping up with the Jones's, he's keeping up with the costs of college and retirement.

And Willie loves the efficiency of those trains but I don't think he even has a hybrid or an EV.

I have been shopping for a gently used hybrid, garaged and driven only by a fundamentalist Christian lady once a week to teach Sunday school or play the piano for worship services and one or two trips a month to shop for groceries and dry goods. I just haven't found a hybrid like that yet. Vic would tell me, I'm sure, to just buy it new and get the full warranty and drive it into the ground. And that is probably the best advice if you're going to drive a hybrid.

I've also shopped for diesel vehicles but they just don't offer enough choices and I can't find ones that I like. Detroit seems determined to make diesel vehicles far more unappealing to consumers than they should be. In diesel, you can buy some honker engine with serious horsepower in the big pickups (very pricey but you'll get 300,000 miles from them) or you can buy an SUV with a diesel engine that is the size of a lawn mower engine that feels quite underpowered but that can get good MPGs on fairly flat highways but it isn't fun to drive in stop-and-go traffic. You're a loser at every stoplight you encounter as even the rice rockets leave you in the dust. With some of these micro-diesels, turbocharged as they might be, even Vic in his hybrid Prius could kick sand in their faces accelerating away from a stoplight, especially if Vic has a nearly-full charge on his battery pack.

The North American consumer is fucking broke and no longer commands what the market will build... Production economies of scale dictate that northern drivers drive the same cheap crap that they use in the Third World tropics...

We're not there yet, of course... but headed in that direction... The same climate change (whatever the cause) that's melting the polar ice caps and Greenland's glaciers will make EVs more viable in northern latititudes. Millenials aren't buying (can't afford) cars and are more likely to use 5G driverless Uber/Lyfts or the eScooters that are popping up in our cities...

The Dodge RAM V-8 pickup will still be around a few more decades for the rednecks who can afford 'em... but Trump ain't gonna save them, the handwriting is on the wall...

Actually, the vehicle products offered to the public now are the result of the supposed Green Revolution that was a key part of 0bama getting elected, back when gas was more expensive and every oil expert railed about Peak Oil, until the shale revolution hit and now every oil depot and pipeline are maxxed out with abundant American oil. A sea change really.

And so we are seeing the cancellation of a lot of EVs and hybrid vehicles which were supposed to be the landmark vehicles of the 2020's. And the introduction of even more pickups of every flavor (including Jeep's entry) and the cancellation of American car lines in favor of turning everything into an SUV.

So GM and the others prepared for EVs and hybrids, enjoying the federal subsidy to boost their dismal sales. Detroit had to worry that 0bama would get his 8 years and higher mpg/emissions standards and that he would be succeeded by a Dem as well which would cement those standards into place across America.

Now, with the unexpected Trump victory and the oil glut of relatively cheap gas, it's happy days again for gas-guzzling wheeled behemoths. Hell, I know people who never take anyone anywhere with them and they're driving Escalades and Suburbans. Because they can. Because it isn't very painful at the pump.

The V8's are disappearing because turbo V6's are better overall, at least over the number of years that a new-car buyer expects a vehicle to last before they replace it. But we'll still have some V8 pickups on the road, like in 1-ton pickups, a decade or more from now. Because of Trump and because of the geysers of fracking-instigated American oil.

I never believed in Peak Oil and I love to recount this particular story. Everyone believed it, everyone thought anyone who didn't believe it was some kind of caveman or a propagandist for the oil industry. And then they all had to shut the hell up when American oilmen proved they were all a pack of liars! I loved it because I can slip in a few I-told-you-so's. Because I am just that petty and proud of it too.

I was just shopping for good deals on the 2014-2015 RAMs. Not a big Dodge fan but these were low mileage and had good maintenance records and the prices were pretty damned good compared to most of the rest of the newer SUVs and other pickups. Just a Ford emblem on a vehicle seems to add about $5K to the price. And it just is not that much better than the Dodge.

I like the navy blue version but prefer the pearl blue, a very bold color for me to choose.

I know, mpg is 17/23 which means some pain at the pump. But a lot of SUVs do no better. That truck is prettier than almost any SUV and it will have a higher resale value in 5 years and will be a little cheaper to insure than an SUV.

Peak Oil theory referred to conventional oil production, not the current glut being produced by non-conventional, shale fracking.....

But in the long run, supply is finite... So maybe fracking has shifted "peak" from 2030 to 2050 or maybe 2075.... Long after you & I are pushing up daisies, but it would be foolish to insist that available supply is infinite....

The beginnings of fracking technology reach back to German efforts to develop them during their petroleum shortages of WW II.

This really is amazing to me, to find the last Peak Oil true believer in America.

You know about Bakken in North Dakota. And about the big field in west Texas. Those alone will keep us going through at least the end of the century.

But the mother load of all frackable oil is in California. It's completely untouched. And we know it's there. It's estimated to be at least 10-20 times the size of the fields in ND/Canada and Texas combined. It is the fracking mother load.

There are other oil-producing areas that are quite suitable for fracking development. We've just scratched the surface worldwide.

Anyway, if you're going to disagree with something, at least learn something about what you're disagreeing with instead of doing it out of ignorance.

The Peak Oil crisis that was so much discussed 10-20 years ago was a far cry from the oil predictions of Peak Oil that started back in the Fifties. Back then, America was still a major exporter before its easiest oil dried up in places like TX/OK/WY etc. The end of Peak Oil in the Fifties meant, primarily, the drying up of America's easy oil sources. Which did happen by the Seventies when we saw sharp rises in fuel prices.

It isn't as though geologists were suddenly so surprised when drillers came up with fracking techniques to extract the shale oil from the rocks. Everyone knew the shale oil was locked up in those semi-porous underground rock formations. This was an old problem and a source of frustration to the drillers, knowing there was shale oil but that they couldn't get it to pool enough to pump it out. So...fracking.

If you really think that,calling you ignorant is giving you the benefit of the doubt.

3/4 and larger trucks haul loads. Unlike the mini-trucks and most half-ton trucks,they aren't just for riding around in.

Show me one of your beloved battery powered trucks that will haul 20,000 lbs at 75 MPH from Minot,ND to the east coast without even whimpering,never mind stopping overnight for a battery charge,and I might start to listen to you.

BTW,a turbo V-6 will NEVER replace a V-8 in trucks,because turbos only produce horsepower,and with trucks it's all about torque.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

My neighbors had been building competitive pulling trucks with straight 6's because of their strong cranks, but have lately given up and gone back to v-8's.

Inlines inherently produce more torque than a V design of the same displacement. The problem is nobody makes hi-po parts for large inlines anymore.

I will take a 292 GM or a 300 Ford inline 6 before I will take a small block V-8. To get any torque with the V-8's you have to go to the big blocks,and even then you have to turn up too many RPM's to produce any real torque.

BTW,I have a 51 Ford business coupe with the original flathead 6 in it,and recenty bought a high-compression finned aluminum Knudsen head for it,with the matching 3 carb intake. Going to cam it up a little and put split exhaust manifolds on it with glasspacks. I might not end up with the fastest car around,but it will sure sound like the nastiest thing you ever heard when it's winding out.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

Thanks for this info, Pete. I can barely keep up with my neighbors when they start talking shop on their inline 6's.

Matter of fact, I'm just getting familiar with flat heads, as well. My only experience with flat heads was helping a family member restore an old '46 Ford sedan. We spent months searching junk yards for a head that didn't have a crack in it! I think he finally scraped the project because of there were no good heads around...

My son is into torque. He got into rock crawling as a teen. He's got a fair amount of knowledge on hp, gears and such.

That's a shame because there are plenty of flat 6 Ford engines laying around. They were produced from 1941 to 1951,and were improved in 1949. LOTS of Ford pu trucks had them,and lots of times you can buy one complete for 100 bucks.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

You misread my post. I was talking only about regular hybrid vehicles (not the more desirable plug-in hybrids). I wasn't talking about electric vehicles at all. Those are useful enough as a second vehicle, say for your wife who just tools 20-50 miles a day around a small town or metro area and only in decent road conditions. Otherwise, you need a hybrid or a gas/diesel unit just like you need one for long highway trips.

You ignore the fact that a lot of people want half-ton pickups for the medium sized loads a suburban or near-rural person will haul. Or to take hunting or off-roading for hiking and other outdoor stuff. Their use is just as compelling to them as your big 1-ton diesel truck that can haul a 10-ton load on a flatbed (on dry hard roads).

A good 3/4 truck can haul 5-6 tons. The bigger loads need a 1-ton truck. And these are more likely to come equipped with the sway control and the transmission cooling gear needed to haul loads on windy days or through hills/mountains. Here are the official 2010 F-150 towing specs, essentially identical to the 2019 specs. I don't find anything yet for the 2020 hybrid model but I expect it will be comparable to the 3L turbo diesel at ~250HP, 440 lb-ft torque and a tow capacity just under 6 tons (11,500 pounds). Ford usually does the logical thing and that is the easiest and quickest way to make an F-150 into a hybrid. And Ford is betting a lot on these hybrid trucks.

Ford plans to show you an entire lineup of them in the next few years. The 2020 Ford F-150 hybrid is coming.

Engine	Horsepower	Torque Output	Max. Towing Capacity	Max. Payload Capacity
2.7-liter turbo EcoBoost	325 hp	400 lb-ft	9,000 lbs	2,470 lbs
3.5-liter EcoBoost	375 hp	470 lb-ft	13,200 lbs	3,230 lbs
High Output 3.5-liter EcoBoost	450 hp	510 lb-ft	8,000/11,000 lbs	1,200/1,520 lbs
3.3-liter Ti-VCT V6	290 hp	265 lb-ft	7,700 lbs	1,990 lbs
5.0-liter Ti-VCT V8	395 hp	400 lb-ft	11,500 lbs	3,270 lbs
3.0-liter PowerStroke Turbo Diesel	250 hp	440 lb-ft	11,500 lbs	2,020 lbs

Ford has already shown a developed prototype of the all-electric 2021 Ford F-150.

Since I am shopping and have decided to include pickups on my list once I realized that mileage and cargo are about the same as the better SUVs (no surprise really since real SUVs are built on truck chassis with the same engines as the consumer pickups have), perhaps you could tell me what you are driving for your main pickup(s). What year, make, model, trim level, special towing packages, what you consider their max towing capacity to be for highway driving with moderate hills would be helpful. I won't consider anything older than a 2012 model. Or any non-diesel engine with more than 80K miles. With diesel, I might go to 150K to purchase if it has regular maintenance records and is very well maintained.

I'm a little dubious of Dodge products, even the pickups because I think the Fiat dumbasses will eventually ruin the entire company. GM is okay. I probably prefer the Ford F-150/F-250s overall. I slightly prefer the styling of Dodge and GM vehicles over the Ford pickups.

I've thought I'd like some towing capacity in case I ever buy a camping trailer to tool around and/or spend a few winters along the Gulf coast. You see those little medium travel trailers in the 18'-25' range for $8K-$12K on a regular basis, even a few new plain-jane ones can be found under $15K at the end of the model year when they do clearance sales. And those travel trailers are built pretty light, some of them in the 2-3 ton payload range, light enough for most 1/2 ton pickups but far better using a decently equipped 3/4 ton pickup if you ever go into hilly country but big enough you could live a few months in one without feeling too cramped for space.

I looked at the bigger SUVs that can tow 5,000 lbs or more but you end up spending more on a used Suburban or similar SUV than just getting a decent used crew cab pickup.

But I am not really shopping for a big-engine diesel pickup that hauls 10 tons at 75MPH coast-to-coast. That's overkill. And those pickups have a very high price premium. I'd only buy one if I decided to try my luck at hauling hot loads for hire in a metro area where you can make a living at it.

It doesn't matter what it can pull if it doesn't have the suspension,the brakes,the weight,and the gearing of a larger truck. You also have to handle curves,bumps and braking.

I used to pull car trailers with stuff like Impalas and Galaxie 500's,and then 1/2 ton pu's. No real difference could be found.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

I currently own and drive 3 pu's. A 1939 IHC D-2 half-ton,a 2016 Chevy Silverado crew cab 4x4 with the 5.3 engine,6 speed auto trans,and 3:73 gears,and the love of my life,my 2500 series 2006 GMC 3/4 ton 4x4 extended cab with the 8 foot bed.

I don't actually hate the 2016 Chebby,but every time I drive the 06 GMC I want to throw rocks at the Chevy when I see it parked in the yard. And it is a perfectly fine truck for most people if you can tolerate the standard equipment wiring and accessory flaws where things like the radio stop working for no reason at all,and a while later start working again for no reason at all. The 5.3 is the small V-8,but with 350 hp and 3:73 gears it accelerates like a 69 SS Camaro. Even gets pretty decent gas mileage. I normally get 18-19 mpg driving around locally,and have gotten 21 or so on highway trips.

I guess the most correct answer is "Yes,you CAN pull a travel trailer with a half-ton pu IF you order the trailer towing option,but the real question you want to ask yourself is "Do I WANT to do this?"

I saw a guy last summer towing a 20 foot travel trailer with a S-10. Looked like the rear bumper was almost touching the ground,and the front bumper was wanting to come off the ground. People do all sorts of damn-fool stuff. A tire blowing out or having to hit the brakes hard going around a curve would have almost certainly resulted in a turnover.

MY best advise would be to rent a 1/2 ton pu with a gas engine one weekend,and then rent a travel trailer and pull it somewhere,spend the night,and then pull it back to where you rented it all and turn it in.

MAKE SURE IT HAS EITHER 3:73 OR 4:11 GEARS or you will absolutely hate it if you have to pull any hills. Besides,any diesel 3/4 or 1 ton truck will have either 3:73 or 4:11 rear gears and it would be a really unfair comparison if the 1/2 ton had 3.08 to 3:50 gears.

The FACTS are that if you buy a truck with a gasoline engine you will NEED 4:11 gears if you haul a load. The gas engine just doesn't have enough torque to pull weight at speed uphills.

Then go back and do it again the next weekend after renting either a 3x4 ton or 1 ton diesel pu and drive it to the exact same campground you went the weekend before,using the same roads and pulling the same size trailer. Probably best to rent the same make and year vehicle,too.

I can't spend your money,but if I were you,I would either buy a 3/4 ton with dually wheels added,or a 1 ton that came with dually wheels. Once you buy one,spend the bucks for a 5th wheel hitch if it doesn't already have one. You will be VERY glad you did once you start pulling the trailer.

I wouldn't trade my 120k mile 06 GMC with the LBZ engine for two new half-ton Silverados,or even one new Chevy diesel 4x4. My 06 LBZ 6.6 turbo diesel is the last year with no smog equipment,and I don't have to add a fuel additive to each tank of gas to be able to drive the damn thing more than 20 mph.

BTW,if you shop for a used one,good luck finding a LBZ engine. You can find the ones with the lower power LMM engine easily enough,but do NOT buy one made before 2006. GM had a LOT of problems with their turbo diesels before they got the problems worked out in 2005. Look for a 2005 or 2006 model if you want simplicity,but make sure it either has the original engine in it,or a replacement 05 or newer engine. I thought the difference was important enough that I drove 1000 miles to buy mine in 2010,and have been nothing but happy with it ever since.

BTW,I bought a new F-350 Ford 1 ton with the turbo IHC Diesel in it and 4:11 gears in 1991. It wasn't half the truck my 06 GMC is,but it really opened my eyes to the danger I had been putting myself into using a car or half-ton truck to pull trailers.

A final note is I LOVE the big inline Cummings diesels used in the Dodge trucks. What I don't love is the reputation the Dodge auto-overdrive transmissions had for self-destructing with low miles. I have been told,but don't know this for a fact,that Dodge had this problem worked out and the trans now last good behind the Cummmings,but I don't know this for a fact. I guess you could buy one with a manual transmission,but I suspect you would be sorry. Automatic transmissions are safer and work MUCH better on slick surfaces like rain or snow than manual transmissions,and one thing you will not want to do is screw up and choke the engine off with clumsy clutch usage while taking off uphill pulling a trailer. Almost forgot. 3/4 and 1 ton pu's usually seem to have "slower" steering boxes than half-ton trucks. IMHO,this is one thing that makes them a pleasure to drive at or above highway speed on 4 lanes,but it also makes them a major pain in the ass trying to park one in a parking spot,back into a trailer space,etc,etc,etc. The turning radius is much larger,which means more "back up,pull ahead,back up,pull ahead" nonsense. One more factoid that favors an auto trans.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

I've seen vids like that, including one where a new GM 1-ton truck flipped a 40' fifth wheel on a mountain road. Driver stupidity of some kind was the only explanation.

I don't think we have rentals of that sort where I'm located. I know they have them in more urban areas though.

I have considered the older trucks for exactly this reason. Their parts are reasonable and still in good supply. They don't have all the endless gadgets and associated wiring to fail due to shoddy design/construction. They don't have stuff like electric power steering, a pricey feature on new vehicles that seem to result in a lot of dealer service work. They also don't have stuff like backup cameras, which I would like but you can add those and Apple CarPlay as an upgrade for under $500 so I don't consider that to be a dealkiller at all.

The problem is that even if you decide to buy the 13yo pickup with the big engine and proper gear ratio, where the hell do you find one that isn't already beat to hell and back? I just don't see them on the local lots or for private sale. Whichever ones are out there seem to be staying put. They're worth more to the owner just to keep around as a spare truck than they would bring as a trade-in.

I have heard this too, never been sure how true it is. And something about Dodge over the years makes me think they're...dodgy. I distrust Dodge more than I do either GM or Ford. Fiat buying up Dodge's auto division doesn't boost my confidence.

Yet I did find myself liking a few of these Dodge pickups, maybe just styling and features and seeing them cost a few thousand less than a GM/GMC/Ford pickup that is comparably equipped.

I know I've managed to entirely ruin my vehicle shopping experience. It's very depressing to think about.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Maybe I learned something that will help me make a decision. But I've been shopping for a long time, learned a lot more about all these crapmobiles than I ever wanted to know, still feel very uncertain and don't have confidence to commit to a purchase on a particular make/model, let alone feel comfortable with the various trim packages or even car paint choices.

But I'm glad you found a truck that makes you happy to drive it, confident it can handle the loads and not break down or be in the garage for service all the time. You can't say that for a lot of the newer trucks. I see people driving some of the big trucks and they never seem to actually tow anything at all. It's like a status symbol thing for them, not something they actually use for what it was designed for, like boats or RVs or trailering cars or construction equipment or building supplies. They buy it for status as far as I can tell. I suppose it makes them feel like they're keeping up with the Jones' or that it makes them feel like more of a manly man when they drive into Hooterville for groceries or something.

I did a web search using stuff like "LBZ engine" for key words. Finally found a truck as close as I was going to get to what I wanted,but had to drive a little more than a thousand miles to pick it up and drive it home. Turned out the damn thing was on ebay.

It was everything I wanted,except it wasn't white. I decided to compromise since it had everything else. I still wish it were white,though. Might get it painted.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

Then again,you have never owned a truck like that and have no idea how comfortable they are,and how well and SAFELY they pull a trailer.

You also have no idea how often they pull trailers,what kind of trailers they pull,or how far they pull them. Some people may only use their trucks to pull a heavy trailer 3 or 4 times a year,and that is all the justification they think they need. If you have it,you can use it when you need it. If you don't have it,you put your life at risk by trying to use a lesser truck.

It's like a status symbol thing for them, not something they actually use for what it was designed for, like boats or RVs or trailering cars or construction equipment or building supplies. They buy it for status as far as I can tell. I suppose it makes them feel like they're keeping up with the Jones' or that it makes them feel like more of a manly man when they drive into Hooterville for groceries or something.

It is VERY easy and tempting to stereotype things you don't understand. I admit to thinking along similar lines right up to the time I bought the F-350. Boy,was THAT an eye-opener! Within a week I was thinking "How long has THIS been going on,and why didn't anybody tell me about it?"

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

I do know people who never tow and still drive those bigger trucks, apparently just for vanity. If they're any safer than the lower class of full-size trucks, it isn't by much.

Surprising just how small the market is for some diesel engine vehicles. And how much they still bring even with 200K miles or more on them.

I wanted what I wanted,and was determined to get it because I bought it with the intention of keeping it for a decade or more. Or at least for as long as I remain able to drive.

200k miles ain't squat on a diesel engine. Most go 400k or more before they need anything. I suspect the ones that get nothing but synthetic turbo diesel oil will go twice that.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

They have a longevity that you just don't see in gas engine vehicles other than some of the older Toyota or Honda vehicles that can go 500,000 miles without much work being done on them. Some of those guys keep driving those things forever.

The big diesel engines are in a class by themselves, not so comparable to a V-8 gas engine in the same pickup. The big diesel engine with a good transmission can go 3-4 times as many miles as comparable gas engines do without needing major repairs or rebuilding. And the diesel engines have so many customization options and different controller chips available for various models. You just don't get those custom options on gas vehicles the way you do with diesels.

I'm not wild about diesel fuel but you can't argue with the power and durability of diesel engines if you want to handle a big vehicle and tow larger trailers over any distance.

I'm not wild about trying to tool through any metro area in a big pickup though. They're inconvenient to maneuver and park, like in mall parking lots or a lot of places you want to park in a city. Just too big, doesn't turn sharp enough. Some of the bigger SUVs have somewhat the same problem.

No question about that. There is no such thing as any vehicle being perfect for all uses.

The solution is to buy a small beater car for local driving. After all,how good does it have to be if you are never going to leave town in it,and small beater cars are cheap.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

I know. I'm really trying to have just one vehicle to insure and keep up with. So it makes it even harder to be happy with a purchase. I just don't want to go back to having multiple vehicles and I'm a little stubborn about it.

Then you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. There is no such thing as any one type of vehicle being ideal for all uses.

BTW,you DO know that you only have to have liability insurance on a beater car,right? Probably cost you less than 100 bucks a year when added to your existing policy.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

I'll try to hit the local carlot sites again. Maybe I'll find a vehicle I like if I'm vigilant enough.