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Title: Iran tanker crisis: Impending Brexit leaves UK with no choice but to do US bidding – and suffer the consequences
Source: The Independent via The Unz Review
URL Source: http://www.unz.com/pcockburn/brexit ... -to-do-trumps-bidding-in-iran/
Published: Jul 22, 2019
Author: Patrick Cockburn
Post Date: 2019-07-24 13:55:40 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 11498
Comments: 58

What on Earth were the British politicians and officials thinking who gave the go-ahead for the seizure of the Iranian oil tanker Grace 1 off Gibraltar on 4 July? Did they truly believe that the Iranians would not retaliate for what they see as a serious escalation in America’s economic war against them?

The British cover story that the sending of 30 Royal Marines by helicopter to take over the tanker was all to do with enforcing EU sanctions on Syria, and nothing to do with US sanctions on Iran, was always pretty thin.

The Spanish foreign minister, Josep Borrell, has said categorically that Britain took over the tanker “following a request from the United States to the United Kingdom”.

One fact about Iranian foreign policy should have been hardwired into the brain of every politician and diplomat in Britain, as it already is in the Middle East, which is that what you do to the Iranians they will do to you at a time and place of their own choosing.

The US and UK backed Saddam Hussein in his invasion of Iran in 1980, but this was not unconnected – though it was impossible to prove – with the suicide bombing that killed 241 US service personnel in the marine barracks in Beirut in 1983.

Commentators seeking an explanation for the UK’s seizure of the Grace 1 suggest that it was suckered into the action by super hawks in the US administration, such as the national security adviser John Bolton.

But, given the inevitability of the Iranian reaction against British naval forces too weak to defend British-flagged tankers, the British move looks more like a strategic choice dictated by a lack of other options.

Confrontation with the EU over Brexit means that Britain has no alternative but to ally itself ever more closely to the US.

Of course, this will scarcely be a new departure since Britain has glued itself to the US on almost all possible occasions since the Suez Crisis of 1956.

The lesson drawn from that debacle by Whitehall was that the UK needed to be always close to the US. The French drew the opposite conclusion that it must bond more closely with the continental European states in the shape of the European Economic Community.

The one-sided relationship between the US and UK was in operation in the military interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain walked into these quagmires to demonstrate its position as America’s most loyal ally while lacking a coherent policy and without adequate forces.

The Chilcot report said the only consistent theme that it could detect in British policy in Iraq between 2003 and 2009 was how to get its troops out of the country. Wanting to do it without offending the Americans, the British – in a major miscalculation – decided that this could be best done by relocating their forces to Afghanistan, where more than 400 of them were killed in action.

In its confrontation with Iran, Britain is in trouble because it is trying to ride several horses at the same time. It is supposedly seeking to adhere to the Iran nuclear deal and oppose US sanctions on Iran, but in practice it has done nothing of the sort and boarding the Grace 1 was a clear demonstration of this.

One feature of the present crisis is that the seizure of the Stena Impero is clearly tit-for-tat by Iran. It is, unlike past Iranian retaliatory actions, making no effort to conceal this, presumably calculating that there is not much Britain can do about it and it is a good time to demonstrate Iranian strength and British weakness.

Iran expresses no doubt that Britain is acting as a US proxy, though this has been true for a long time. But life as a proxy may be particularly dangerous in the Gulf at the moment because of the peculiar nature of the confrontation between the US and Iran in which neither side wants to engage in an all-out war.

This makes it necessary to act through proxies like the UK, an approach that minimises the chances of Americans being killed and Donald Trump having no option but to retaliate in kind.

Iran is being visibly hurt by sanctions but Iranians are more likely to blame the US for their sufferings than their own government. The US is not going to launch a ground invasion, as it did in Iraq in 2003, and, so long as this is off the table, Iran can sustain the military pressures.

In fact, a permanent crisis in the Gulf just below the level of a full-scale military conflict is in the interests of Iran and better than enduring a prolonged economic siege.

(Republished from The Independent by permission of author or representative)

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#1. To: Tooconservative (#0)

SEALS should storm the vessel and take it out of port.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-24   14:41:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Vicomte13 (#1)

SEALS should storm the vessel and take it out of port.

Assuming they succeeded, Do you seriously think it would make it out of Iranian territory before it was sunk?

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-07-24   15:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#1) (Edited)

SEALS should storm the vessel and take it out of port.

I would guess there would be an ugly end to that. The Iranians are very unpleasant.

I think the Iranians may be near the breaking point as a regime, forced back to renegotiate their JCPOA agreement not to develop nukes. They will have to accept a full and unlimited set of inspections to verify no nuke program. Much like Saddam had.

And Britain standing up to Iran helps make them a key partner, along with the U.S., in any subsequent negotiations with Iran.

The thrust of the article is that Britain is in a position where they can't say no to America on much due to the necessity of U.S. support for Brexit to happen and for a good bilateral trade deal with America and possibly Canada and Mexico as well.

America could make things uncomfortable for France and Germany if they're too harsh with Britain on a Brexit deal. And France and Germany wouldn't like it any better than some of the sanctions we've forced them to observe via our control of the SWIFT international money union. We put a stop to most of their business with Iran in this way. And we have other means of sanctions we could use that they wouldn't like.

Britain as a separate entity politically from the EU also means that NATO policy and strategy will be different. NATO becomes even less relevant, given that Britain and Greece and Turkey were the only countries that spent at or above their commitment to NATO although some of the newest members like Poland and Estonia have had decent spending. It's France (somewhat) and Germany (extremely so) and other old NATO members like Belgium and Italy that have really decided they don't take any NATO obligation seriously. It's only an obligation for America to defend Europe and at American expense. They keep some token armies around because they're handy for staging historical marches in parades on the grand boulevards of Europe's old capital cities. But useful in combat? Well, to find out, America would mostly have to transport them and their equipment to an actual battle since they have no transport, no air transport, scarce meager air refueling resources, etc. and with little more readiness among their naval forces or their armies. Most of the EU considers itself a protectorate of America and that America is responsible for defending them. And America did just cancel Turkey's purchase of the F-35 and their participation in making some of the parts for it, meaning that NATO membership is considered conditional by America when push comes to shove. Turkey's offense to America is acquiring the Russian S-400 missile system. America believed that Turkey would use its hands-on access to the F-35 to sell its secrets to Russia and possibly China.

Anyway, there are changes brewing in the international diplomatic and military scene, strong undercurrents leading us away from the post-Cold War era. And this reckoning with the EU and others is, in fact, overdue.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-24   15:31:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Tooconservative (#3) (Edited)

I think the Iranians may be near the breaking point as a regime

Why do you think so? You mean that the present ruling party (Moderation and Development Party led by Hassan Rouhani, that got 57% in 2017) will lose the next elections and Ahmadinejad returns to power?

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-24   19:22:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: A Pole (#4)

You mean that the present ruling party (Moderation and Development Party led by Hassan Rouhani, that got 57% in 2017) will lose the next elections and Ahmadinejad returns to power?

The reporting I've read recently indicates that Iran is drawing back its forces in Syria from the border with northern Israel. They are also not supplying the Houthi rebels in their anti-Saudi rebellion.

Iran is pulling back only because Iran wants to negotiate. This is all a prelude to a re-negotiation of the Iran nuke deal, the JCPOA. America, along with Britain, will press Iran for a full inspections regime.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-24   20:34:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Tooconservative (#3)

France's military is not one of those ceremonial forces. It's the most effective deployable navy in Europe, and its army is all over Africa. And the French deployed heavily to Afghanistan.

France takes military obligation seriously. Germany, Belgium, etc. you're right about them, but France is the most powerful military in Western Europe (after the US) and it is deployed all over the world, so it's just not accurate to lump the French in with the Germans.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-24   22:52:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pinguinite (#2)

I think that there would be a lot of fighting. There would have to be air escort, with a lot of aerial destruction of Iranian naval forces. I rather like the idea, because it would kill two birds with one stone: get that ship out of there, and make it such that the Iranians would have no forces afloat capable of doing it again. It would serve them right.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-24   22:54:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

I rather like the idea, because it would kill two birds with one stone: get that ship out of there, and make it such that the Iranians would have no forces afloat capable of doing it again. It would serve them right.

I think the Iranians were morally justified in taking the tanker, though it was probably illegal to do so. Though they claim technical moving violations as justification. Pretty much like a cop ticketing someone for changing lanes without signalling. Given there is no international police force for monitoring and enforcing sea lane traffic laws it seems the task would have to fall to countries that would volunteer for the duty.

As they say, it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it! Maybe this is the new Iran trying to show the world they really are a country interested in law and order!

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-07-24   23:01:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Tooconservative, Vicomte13 (#3)

They will have to accept a full and unlimited set of inspections to verify no nuke program. Much like Saddam had.

What may seriously hinder that is memories of what happened to Saddam and Ghadaffi.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-07-25   9:55:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Pinguinite (#8)

Taking the side of the enemy there, bucko? So be it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-25   12:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Vicomte13 (#10)

Taking the side of the enemy there, bucko? So be it.

Enemy?

I don't recall any declaration of war.

And does your version of patriotism mean blind loyalty to a flag completely disregarding any sense of moral right and wrong?

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-07-25   13:48:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Vicomte13 (#6)

France's military is not one of those ceremonial forces. It's the most effective deployable navy in Europe, and its army is all over Africa. And the French deployed heavily to Afghanistan.

You'll notice I didn't exactly lump France in with the others.

And Britain was always good about funding its military until the last few years but I think France might be the stronger ally nowadays.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-25   15:05:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: nolu chan (#9)

What may seriously hinder that is memories of what happened to Saddam and Ghadaffi.

Yeah. The Iranians seem to be very aware of that.

Knocking off Ghadaffi was a big mistake. Now Iran and the Norks can sit back and say that only nukes will make their regime safe and that complying with international inspections just makes you a patsy in your own country. They're not wrong about that.

Saddam went under the inspections regime under Xlinton, Bush knocked him off. Ghadaffi turned over his entire WMD equipment under Bush, 0bama knocked him off.

Why would any sane dictator trust us at this point?

OTOH, I think Iran may have no choice at all at this point. Either they get the sanctions off their backs or their entire regime will fall. Those sanctions may bring them to their knees.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-25   15:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Pinguinite (#8)

I think the Iranians were morally justified in taking the tanker, though it was probably illegal to do so. Though they claim technical moving violations as justification. Pretty much like a cop ticketing someone for changing lanes without signalling. Given there is no international police force for monitoring and enforcing sea lane traffic laws it seems the task would have to fall to countries that would volunteer for the duty.

In that part of the Gulf, they do actually have lanes. There's some puny island out there and inbound tankers stay on one side, outbound tankers on the other side. One of the ships the Iranians grabbed a few weeks back on suspicion of piracy came inbound in the wrong "lane" (the outbound lane). Or say the Iranians say.

So there are traffic lanes in those straits. It's not like open ocean.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-25   15:11:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Tooconservative (#14)

In that part of the Gulf, they do actually have lanes. There's some puny island out there and inbound tankers stay on one side, outbound tankers on the other side. One of the ships the Iranians grabbed a few weeks back on suspicion of piracy came inbound in the wrong "lane" (the outbound lane). Or say the Iranians say.

So there are traffic lanes in those straits. It's not like open ocean.

Yes, that's what I read. It's quite credible that the traffic rules exist, and also believable that tankers would only treat them, as per the Pirate Code, as mere "guidelines". I could also see a UK tanker captain traveling on the wrong side of the island if it meant staying farther away from Iranian waters given the tensions.

But obviously the seizing of the tanker by Iran on those grounds would only be a pretense to retaliating against the UK.

The UK, on the other hand, according to one report I read that was UK based, claimed the Iranian supertanker which may not even be Iranian but just under contract with Iran, made port in Gibraltar for provisions and parts which is where it was seized, and that it was not in the international waters of the Gibraltar straits when it was taken. No idea how true or not that is.

A lot of he said/she said. About the only thing we can be sure of is that the UK struck first.

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-07-25   17:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Tooconservative (#13)

"Either they get the sanctions off their backs or their entire regime will fall. "

Putting aside the fact that there were sanctions on Iran before for several years with no effect, and that lately trade with China increased, how do you imagine this "regime fall"?

A popular uprising demanding return of the shah?

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-25   17:56:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Pinguinite (#15)

Yes, that's what I read. It's quite credible that the traffic rules exist, and also believable that tankers would only treat them, as per the Pirate Code, as mere "guidelines". I could also see a UK tanker captain traveling on the wrong side of the island if it meant staying farther away from Iranian waters given the tensions.

I think this is the kind of thing that landlubbers don't "get". And I know I'm a landlubber. You can only know so much from reading, and the rapidly sinking quality of reporting from overseas (or across town in NYC) gives you little confidence in the facts as reported.

The UK, on the other hand, according to one report I read that was UK based, claimed the Iranian supertanker which may not even be Iranian but just under contract with Iran, made port in Gibraltar for provisions and parts which is where it was seized, and that it was not in the international waters of the Gibraltar straits when it was taken. No idea how true or not that is.

I saw video at the Guardian or Independent. It showed a tanker ship underway apparently at sea and a helicopter and a few smaller Brit ships/boats and the chopper dropped at least one guy on the deck by rope in the video. So I assume that is how it started. I also saw some conflicting reports and accusations.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-25   18:13:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Tooconservative (#14)

In that part of the Gulf, they do actually have lanes.

Note that at their narrowest parts, the straits of Hormuz and Gibraltar have no international water, it is all territorial water. Navigation through the straits is impossible without passing through territorial water.

For navigation in the straits, loaded tankers have quite a deep draft, and the usable channel is not very wide.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-07-25   19:23:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A Pole (#16)

Putting aside the fact that there were sanctions on Iran before for several years with no effect, and that lately trade with China increased, how do you imagine this "regime fall"?

China has to obey our sanctions on the Norks and Iran and can only hedge those a little. Or they'll get sanctioned too. They won't risk it. And China has no interest in anything except Iran's oil. Iran wants to, for instance, make money by being one of the biggest almond growers in the world, bigger than CA even. Sanctions put a stop to that.

A popular uprising demanding return of the shah?

Popular uprising seems the most likely. I see Junior Pahlevi is still prancing around at various anti-mullah meetings (outside Iran, of course). I don't see the Iranians wanting a shah again. Why would they?

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-25   21:47:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Tooconservative (#19) (Edited)

I don't see the Iranians wanting a shah again.

So what system would they want, to replace present regime? Like in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Why would they?

Not to suffer sanctions, remember?

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   2:26:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A Pole (#20)

So what system would they want, to replace present regime? Like in Iraq or Afghanistan?

I thought of that earlier today. Look around the region, the problems with the various attempts at some sort of democratic government.

Turkey succumbed to Islamism after its military finally got tired of knocking off one government after the next to preserve a secular state.

And you have Saddam in Iraq. Saddam was part of the Sunni minority since Iraq is over 60% Shi'a as I recall. (Iran is also a Shi'a majority country but it has an aggressive Shi'a leadership by the mullahs and Republican Guard.) Saddam's Iraq was multicultural. His foreign minister was Christian, for instance. Iraq's sizable Christian community lived quietly and peacefully throughout the country. The Sunni minority and even the very ancient Jews of Iraq (and Babylon and Mesopotamia) lived safely in neighborhoods of mixed groups, all largely without problems. Baghdad has a reputation of being a bit like a Las Vegas of the Mideast, a party town for people around the region and a Muslim could get away with a lot of stuff there that they couldn't in their home countries. What happened in Baghdad, stayed in Baghdad. Until America invaded.

So what other examples of governance of modern Arab or Muslim regimes in the region?

Well, Egypt's Mubarek was a general who ruled for decades until he was deposed by Morsi, an Islamist of the Muslim Brotherhood. Then the riots in Cairo against Morsi as he attempted to...yep, change the constitution to give him dictatorial powers. And so Morsi got knocked off by al-Sisi, a general who is starting to look like Mubarek 2.0.

Libya can't provide much example. An inhabited coastline with some medium sized cities, but generally a big desert with one bunch of hostile clans on the east site of the big desert and another hostile clan on the west side of the desert. Within each of these clans that are hostile to each other, they also fight for position within their faction. A big giant mess. Crazy as he was, Ghaddafi did a lot to make Libya a real country in terms of housing, education, fresh water access, elements of modern government services, like his regular elimination of locusts which had devastated the region for years, not just in Libya but in neighboring countries.

Lebanon went down the tubes decades ago and is now being absorbed politically by Hizbollah, an Iranian puppet group. So that example doesn't help Iran's reformers.

Beyond Turkey, Iraq, Egypt, and Libya, you only have the oil sheiks of Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, etc. And they're all essentially monarchs, more or less like Jordan is. The Saudis, as the holy land of Islam, have stricter religious police than the rest of them. Even the Saudis have toned the religious police down, giving women the vote and now allowing women to drive.

You have a handful of other miserable poor nations like Yemen in the region. They offer no economic or political or religious model that could apply to Iran.

So where does Iran look for an example of what kind of government they want if they get rid of the mullah's corrupt theocracy? That's a hard question to answer. The few examples we might have seen in the past didn't work so well over time. Iran did probably fan the flames of unrest in some of these countries. Sometimes you have to think that Iran is more interested in destroying other governments in the region, that they hope to succeed simply by making other regimes fall, causing unrest, foiling attempts at reform, etc. And perhaps that is the only way they think they can prevail. Iran is the Shi'a holy land and the region has a huge Sunni majority and tiny Shi'a minorities. Overall, it's about 90% Sunni and 10% Shi'a.

I think Iran has yet to produce a reformer with a vision of what post-theocracy Iran would look like. And the mullahs would kill any such figure anyway. The mullahs's hold on power is in part because so many are complicit with the regime, so many people have secrets known to the government, etc. Quite often these kinds of factors help keep regimes in power long after they would have otherwise collapsed. So the mullahs do have some incentive to cultivate the citizenry to see the regime as the only hope of stability. And to keep the key mid-level bureaucrats and business people on board through patronage of the mullah political establishment, a very corrupt arrangement comparable to how the Chinese economy has a huge amount of business done overseas via front organizations for the Chinese military. Iran's Revolutionary Guard works that way too, usually pitching corrupt deals to enrich the members of the families of leading mullahs. So all the people capable of reform and revolt are...already co-opted into the theocracy.

I don't think anyone can imagine what government would follow the collapse of the mullahs. And perhaps the only way for the current regime to end is in a complete collapse. Not so different from North Korea or Venezuela, Iran's totalitarian buddies.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-26   3:28:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Tooconservative (#21)

 And perhaps the only way for the current regime to end is in a complete collapse

So you think that it is what Iranians will opt for if sanctions are kept in place? Libyan or Somali model?

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   4:52:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: A Pole (#22)

Neither the Libyans nor the Somalis "chose" that. Neither have the Venezuelans. Somalia was never organized enough or democratic enough that the Somali people ever really chose the state of the country. Bandit warlords/pirates carved out spheres of influence, the population was just trying to survive, usually via complicity with the local warlord. Ilhan in Congress was a refugee from a family in Somalia who was entirely employed by the regime with her grandfather being the highest-ranking member of government. When that regime fell, the entire family fled in fear of retaliation from their fellow-citizens.

And I don't recall Libya ever wanting to get rid of Ghaddafi. Odd duck that he was, he was widely recognized with having improved the welfare of every faction in Libya and wasn't excessive about playing favorites. A tolerable level of corruption from Ghaddafi with a rising standard of living for a Third World nation that is little more than a big-ass desert. But the Libyan people did not "choose" the anarchy they've suffered. It hasn't even been good for the warlord-wannabes and their militias.

I think the Iranians will just collapse if they don't agree to a full inspections regime. Because the regime is, in Iran, Too Big To Fail. Until it suddenly does fail spectacularly.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-26   5:13:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Tooconservative (#23)

I think the Iranians will just collapse if they don't agree to a full inspections regime.

I think, you engage in wishful thinking.

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   5:15:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: A Pole (#22)

BTW, some other news about Brit tankers in the Straits:

Townhall: The Royal Navy Will Now Protect Every British Ship Passing Near Iran

Britain has now had time to redeploy its navy and bring enough ships to the Straits to escort each ship. Before this, they didn't have enough ships to protect all their (flagged) tankers.

So Britain won't lose any more tankers to Iran. And Iran's oil shipment to Syria is still locked up in Gibraltar.

Looks like Brittania ruling the waves to me.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-26   5:43:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Tooconservative (#25) (Edited)

So Britain won't lose any more tankers to Iran. And Iran's oil shipment to Syria is still locked up in Gibraltar.

Yes, so they are even. One to one.

Looks like Brittania ruling the waves to me.

Dream on. British fleet in the Persian Gulf, will be like fish in the barrel. It is not XIX century anymore.

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   8:13:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: A Pole (#26) (Edited)

Yes, so they are even. One to one.

Iran's navy is actually real pathetic.

The Brit navy can kick sand in their faces any time. The only thing the Iranians could really do is mine the Straits. Which would bring the wrath of the world down on them, not Britain.

British fleet in the Persian Gulf, will be like fish in the barrel. It is not XIX century anymore.

It isn't the nineteenth century. But navies are still useful or countries like Britain wouldn't bother to keep them operating. Britain is a very old hand at conducting foreign policy while their opponents are staring down the barrels of British warships.

I think Iran was angling to improve its position in negotiations. Britain is slamming the door hard on any such hopes. Iran is pulling back across the region, near Israel, in supplying Houthi rebels against the Saudis, etc. And that oil tanker bound for Syria was intended to help prop up their allies in that war. Iran is strongly opposed by America, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Jordan, and now Britain.

This doesn't end so well for the mullahs IMO. It's either accepting inspections or a complete economic collapse as Iran's economy is nailed to the wall by American sanctions. We're really ratcheting down on them now, a lot like what we did prior to the invasion of Iraq when Saddam was reduced to hauling oil in small trucks with barrels to smuggling ships in Jordan. Just a trickle of moolah to pay the bills in Baghdad. The EU isn't happy with losing the Iranian business and they don't want any invasion of Iran but they don't have much choice about American sanctions. Neither does China. And Russia focuses on preserving its Syrian client, Assad, and looking to pick up other opportunities, possibly with Iran and India.

I don't think you are keeping current with the scale of economic downturn in Iran. They are having multiple domestic policy crises at the same time with the regime looking pretty corrupt. Because they are pretty corrupt.

Power is being concentrated against Iran and its regime and the threat of Iranian nukes. And Iran is not a North Korea. They are far more vulnerable.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-26   10:46:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Tooconservative (#27) (Edited)

It's either accepting inspections or a complete economic collapse ... The EU isn't happy with losing the Iranian business and they don't want any invasion of Iran but they don't have much choice about American sanctions. Neither does China.

American sanctions are truly a wonder weapon. Everyone will submit.

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   13:04:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A Pole (#28)

American sanctions are truly a wonder weapon. Everyone will submit.

Watch and learn.

Our SWIFT system is more far-reaching and sophisticated than when we used it against Saddam. The Norks are feeling some real pain as well.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-26   13:46:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Pinguinite (#11)

And does your version of patriotism mean blind loyalty to a flag completely disregarding any sense of moral right and wrong?

Oh yeah, sure, because that's OBVIOUSLY me, as anybody will tell you after my - what? decade? - of posting here. I'm just a company man, toeing the party line, agreeing with everything that the sainted Republicans do and upholding every act of government at all times.

Yep, just a mind numbed robot. That's why all of the other right wingers on this site love me so much. I'm just a POSTER BOY Republican loyalist, a regular Boy Scout of the Right.

Mmmmhmmmm. You got me. Jeez oh Pete - this is the way that partisans argue. Direct to the ad hominems, no matter HOW ridiculous. I don't see things in the weird and cranky spider-holey way you do, so OBVIOUSLY I'm just a blind loyalist without any moral sense. Sure, whatever.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-26   14:17:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Tooconservative (#14)

If I remember correctly, that little island is "Abu Musa" - the Isle of Moses. But it's been a loooong time since I steered past that rock.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-26   14:19:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Tooconservative, A Pole (#25)

Britain has now had time to redeploy its navy and bring enough ships to the Straits to escort each ship. Before this, they didn't have enough ships to protect all their (flagged) tankers.

Reports I read claimed PM Theresa May declined to either insert British ships into the area, or accept a U.S. offer of protection, seeking to appease the Iranians. That worked about as well as May's Brexit without exit. Now there is a new sheriff in town.

nolu chan  posted on  2019-07-26   14:19:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: A Pole (#26)

Iran has no power to shoot any fish in the naval barrel. They've got speedboats armed with bazookas, and if they DO ride out and attack a British warship, the US will launch airstrikes that destroy their docks with all of the small Boghammer boats in them. The Iranians do not dare pull the trigger aiming at anything actually manned. A drone here, a seizure there. Maybe a mine somewhere. But actually cross the line and shoot directly at a Western warship, and the Americans will go weapons free and destroy the entire Iranian Navy and missile capacity in a series of strikes that the Iranians cannot answer. Iran will be humiliated with great loss of their military life. And our loss of life? Zero. Fanatics all over the Middle East figured they were tough enough to trade their lives for some political advantage. The advantage never came, but they died.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-26   14:23:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Tooconservative (#17)

Taking out Ghadafi was not a mistake. He was responsible for blowing up a British Airways flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, and killing US forces in Berlin. Terrorists he paid for, trained, sheltered and supported did that.

When we declared the War On Terror, we were not kidding: we are at war with ALL Islamist terror organizations, and the state that support them. Gadafi was that.

He had the chance to live: repent and hand over the terrorists sheltering in Libya. And sin no more. He did not do that. He laid low. And therefore, he had to die.

Every Islamist nation that shot weapons or launched terrorists at America has been slated for destruction, and every single one of them except Syria (protected by the Russians), and Iran, has been destroyed or changed.

And Syria is having the Golan Heights stripped from it permanently, after having been largely physically destroyed.

We were never joking around when we declared war, we have not changed our minds, and by and large, we have won. Iran is really the only holdout, and we are crushing Iran's economy.

By overthrowing Ghadafi, we did destroy the order in Libya, that's true. Now they live harder lives in a destroyed country. Fuck them. That is the price you pay when you kill Americans in airplanes. And while a few of us die in the terror attack, you and your people keep dying, in large numbers, and you all suffer for the better part of the century. If you're not terrified of provoking the wrath of the United States, because the Americans are ruthless, cruel, unjust and arbitrary, then you haven't been paying attention.

To save his life, Ghadafy had to submit AT ONCE. He did not. Now he's dead. And now the Libyans - same ones who aided and abetted the murder of Westerners in Scotland and Berlin, are living worse lives than they have lived in a half-century, and they can't get back up, because their own bile and poison is turned on each other, and they are eating each other. Good. Fuck them.

It's war. It doesn't end until we say it ends. Their deaths and suffering are a good thing - it is the just punishment for attacking our people 30 years ago. Terror is met with grinding horror. They will never apologize or think they are wrong, therefore, they shall have their faces ground into the mud, and be poor and suffer, for the rest of their lives, and if their children do not submit, theirs, and so on, until they finally have their will broken and change, like the Apache, Cherokee, Sioux, etc.

That's really what the Muslims are - the modern incarnation of the American Indian. And we know how to reduce that sort to nothing and grind them to powder, NEVER to rise again.

Moral: DO NOT MAKE WAR ON AMERICA, because the Americans are not only the most powerful nation in the world, and the richest, but they are remarkably cruel, and they really do not give a shit about the lives of their enemies while the fight is going on. The Americans care about the lives of their own.

Wiping out Ghadafi's Libya and making the LIBYANS live with Islamist barbarism is exactly right. Ditto for Yemen (where they blew up the Cole). Tear apart their civilizations and make the savages eat each other. They deserve everything they are getting.

Want mercy? Then abandon your religion, like the Japanese did, and hand over your terrorists, just like the Japanese handed over their leaders so that we could hang them.

No mercy. No reason for mercy. Yes, Libya is a mess and their lives are wrecked. So what? Who cares. Good. They deserve it. All lands that support terror deserve to live in agony and misery until they change their religion to not support it any more. And if they never change, then beat them down forever, like various of the warlike American Indian tribes, who never made peace, and who now rot in the desert and die at 50.

Engaging America in war is a terrible thing, because, guess what Ayatollah, you're right - as far as you are concerned, we ARE Satan. And you have no weapons that can hurt Satan, but Satan can torture you for eternity, AND WILL.

So get on your knees and surrender. Hand over who we tell you to, and change your religion to outlaw the jihad, or we will keep on killing you, for sport, like boys pulling wings off flies. You're the flies. And you cannot escape your fate.

That's what hatred looks and sounds like. And feels like. You hate us. And we hate you. You're weak. We're strong. You show no mercy. Don't expect any from us. Ghadady didn't get any. Libya's a ruin. Good.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-26   14:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vicomte13 (#33)

Iran has no power to shoot any fish in the naval barrel. They've got speedboats armed with bazookas, and if they DO ride out and attack a British warship, the US will launch airstrikes that destroy their docks with all of the small Boghammer boats in them.

It is not what I meant. Their fleet is not match and you are right about it. But there is something like asymmetric warfare,

Remember about mountainous Iranian coast with thousands of missiles. They have several types and look up this one example, please:

Khalij Fars - nationalinterest.org/blog...ould-strike-us-navy-57832

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   14:54:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

guess what Ayatollah, you're right - as far as you are concerned, we ARE Satan. And you have no weapons that can hurt Satan, but Satan can torture you for eternity, AND WILL.

So get on your knees and surrender. Hand over who we tell you to, and change your religion to outlaw the jihad, or we will keep on killing you, for sport, like boys pulling wings off flies. You're the flies. And you cannot escape your fate.

That's what hatred looks and sounds like. And feels like. You hate us. And we hate you. You're weak. We're strong. You show no mercy. Don't expect any from us. Ghadady didn't get any. Libya's a ruin. Good.

Perhaps you need to see a doctor?

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   14:58:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Vicomte13 (#34) (Edited)

Taking out Ghadafi was not a mistake. He was responsible for blowing up a British Airways flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, and killing US forces in Berlin. Terrorists he paid for, trained, sheltered and supported did that.

A Pyrrhic victory at best.

Wiping out Ghadafi's Libya and making the LIBYANS live with Islamist barbarism is exactly right. Ditto for Yemen (where they blew up the Cole). Tear apart their civilizations and make the savages eat each other. They deserve everything they are getting.

Want mercy? Then abandon your religion, like the Japanese did, and hand over your terrorists, just like the Japanese handed over their leaders so that we could hang them.

You can't seriously expect that to happen.

Tooconservative  posted on  2019-07-26   15:32:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: A Pole (#35)

The beauty of this sort of thing is that it simplifies things. If the Iranians do launch an all out missile strike on US ships, then the war is on, and there won't be any question about limiting it.

We'll bring our full weight to bear, from all directions, and they will be torn apart, just as Iraq was. And that will be that. Case closed, game over.

Experience has taught us that there will be a guerilla afterwards, so THIS TIME we'll keep sufficient forces deployed to manage the transition.

The Iranians would greatly simplify our strategic situation if they went ahead and outright attacked the US Fleet, Pearl Harbor style.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-26   15:44:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: A Pole (#36)

Hate is a disease?

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-07-26   15:45:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#39)

Hate is a disease?

No, it is not. But some ravings might be symptom of a disease. There are pills that can calm fellow down.

A Pole  posted on  2019-07-26   15:54:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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