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Title: Chandler police remove kids from home after sick child not taken to hospital
Source:
AZ Family
URL Source: https://www.azfamily.com/news/chand ... 9a-11e9-abf4-7fa4eaa39a0b.html
Published: Mar 2, 2019
Author: News Staff
Post Date: 2019-03-02 13:59:38 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 6100
Comments: 69
CHANDLER, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) - It's been almost three days since a Chandler couple last saw their children. It all began with a trip to the doctor because their toddler had a high fever. Now all three of their children are in the custody of the Department of Child Safety. Police said the incident started on Feb. 25, when parents Sarah Beck and Brooks Bryce brought their 2-year-old son Heber to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine because the child was suffering from a fever. Beck says the doctor found Heber's temperature to be 105 degrees and instructed them to take him to the ER, mentioning a concern for meningitis. Once in her car, his mother retook his temperature and found it was going down. "He's acting normal. He's dancing with his sisters in his car seat. And I take his temperature and it's 102," said Beck. So they went home. She says by then the fever had dropped even more. "We love our children, we love them. If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them," said Beck. "I told the doctor that I'd bring my son back for her to check and make sure that his fever was lower, and she said she wouldn't see him, and I had to take him in." The doctor, learning they had not gone to the ER, called DCS, and later that night, the family got a visit from Chandler police. Officers went to the family's home to check the child's welfare, but no one answered the door, even though police could hear "someone coughing inside one of the bedrooms," according to the police report. After several failed attempts to get someone to open the door, police called the boy's father. Police said Bryce answered the phone but told police that his son's fever had broken and "he was fine." According to the police report, Bryce was "argumentative and refused to exit the residence to talk with officers or DCS investigators." "Like we're holding our kids hostage or they're deathly ill or barely alive. He was perfectly fine. He was in my arms sleeping. As I was on the phone with the officer I took his temperature, it was 100 degrees. There's no reason to give up my kids because he has a temperature of 100 degrees and sleeping," said Bryce. When those inside the house continued to refuse to open the door, police said, "The decision was made to force entry of the home for DCS in order to take custody of the child." According to the police report, they made the decision to go inside the home because: -"there was a present danger [to the child] that required immediate medical attention" -"Brooks and Sarah refused to come outside and refused to let DCS check on the welfare of [the child]." -"There was a court order signed by the judge giving DCS temporary custody of [the child] in order to get him medical treatment." So, police forced open the door. According to the police statement: "The front door was breached and the family members were called out of the residence." The family's security camera recorded the moment police kicked open the door. Inside the residence, two additional children (aged 4 and 6) were located, and police say they were also suffering "similar symptoms to include vomiting," according to the police document. Inside the home, police said conditions were so cluttered and messy in the children's rooms that it was "difficult to walk in the rooms." One officer wrote in the police report, "There was clutter everywhere. The house was filled with items everywhere I looked." The officer also said there were stains in the children's bedrooms and that children had told police they had vomited several times in their beds. Police also said that inside the parents' room, "a shotgun was lying next to the bed, against the wall, and was not locked or secured." "The clutter was laundry on our couch," said Bryce. He says the children had been vomiting, but they were moved from their beds to sleep with their parents after messing their own beds. As for the shotgun, he said, "it actually is inert. It does not work." Two of the children were transported to the hospital by ambulance, while the third was transported by DCS. The 2-year-old was later admitted to the hospital, according to police. Their parents have not heard from them since. "I'm just beside myself. I just want my kids. I just want to know are they OK?" said Beck. No charges were filed at the time. But police said detectives will follow up to determine if there are any criminal charges to pursue against the parents.
Poster Comment: Re-posted from another source because the site owner objected to a word in the title.
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#30. To: buckeroo (#29)
(Edited)
Of course that’s a concern. Can you imagine how many scumbag Americans move their little children to the 3rd world jungles, like Belize, so they can rape the kids and not worry about DSS?
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
No. What on Earth is on your demented mind?
Well, you can’t deny that some folk might hate cops and DSS, simply because they are fucking their own children. You deny this?
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
I have learned that anything you post is a GOD DAMNED LIE. Similar to your posts having over 50,000 rounds of ammunition preparing for some make-believe war.
He's going to need a hell of a lot more than that for confiscations from libertarians, like "Take the Guns First". The Trumpkanista Canary gun grabbers are outnumbered, and out gunned.
Make believe war? It was your Paultard buddies that first started to claim we are gonna collapse and a revolution would follow. You deny this, BuckerGoo?
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Ha... I’m not for any confiscation, unless you’re not a citizen, or a felon. In BuckerGoo’s case, he’s both lol
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Your narrative is a problem. You make everything up as you can.
Really, BuckerGoo? LP was packed full of the end are coming Paultards 10 years ago. Are you fucking kidding? It’s FACT. However, I do not think the end of anything will come during my lifetime... not even a collapse. However, I hope some situation develops where it’s legal for me to hunt snowflakes, welfare, illegals, drug addicts and libertarians.
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
for discipline Jimmy Jones was bf - ing The unruly he haTed To have To do iT belize - guyana aren'T They The same Thing love If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
That’s right, Boris. Jim Jones ran off to the jungle because he too liked fucking his children. He was a government and cop hater too. Sick twisted fucks, they are. Good catch.
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
David Koresh also hated cops and government... he ran off to a secluded DRY wooden structure, to fuck his children. He figured his compound was as secluded as a jungle, if he refused to answer the door for 51 days. lol
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Have you noticed the correlation between grandchildren fuckers and government/cop haters?
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
In a MMA match, they ain’t all equal... and there’s no compassion for the loser. Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. If some fags like Gatlin, GI, and yukon want to go to a gay catfight, I could care less. Homo's gonna homo.
Stone - is this the kind of perverted filth you want at your site?
Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. Spoken like a true sociopath. Good grief man, WTF is wrong with you?
Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. That is your best chance at propagating just your agenda here... convincing Stone to ban all voices that aren’t anti cop, pro drugs. Lots of government & cop hating folk do so because they are actively breaking laws. Dumb shit. Many flee the country to avoid detection, dumb shit. Many rape children or their own children, dip shit. Jones and Keresh were two examples of seeking seclusion to avoid detection, dumb shit.
I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Relax princess, no one wants to see you banned. I'd be happy to see you start posting like a sane adult instead of of a drunk sociopath.
Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. The extremely relevant point is that the N.D. could not make a diagnosis. He lacked competency to do so. Given all the equipment he desired, was the N.D. licensed and competent to render a competent medical professional opinion of a positive or negative diagnosis of infectious meningitis? The answer appears clear that he was not. That's much better. The N.D. was not trained to diagnose meningitis. I would also doubt his medical competence to differentiate between the symptoms of bacterial or viral infection. The judge acted with zero competent evidence that there was any bacterial infection. If a friend who had some medical knowledge, perhaps a former military corpman or medic, or an LPN expressed a belief that the child might have infectious meningitis, I should think that the parents should take the child to a competent medical professional. However, that is not the question I address in this case. It is not a case of what the parents should have done, but whether the N.D. failed in his professional responsibilities, or the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority. Notably absent from any recitation I have read so far is one syllable directly attributable to the N.D. If the N.D. believed it was probable that the child had infectious meningitis, he should have notified the receiving hospital so they could be prepared to receive a suspected infectious meningitis case, and forwarded the medical record. He should not have advised the parents to transport the child to some ER unannounced, there to plop in the waiting area to mix and mingle. The N.D. is without authority to order or instruct the parents that they must go to the ER. As an N.D., he must know that his business is significantly an assembly of people who choose not to go to medical doctors. If he has a patient with a 105ºF temperature, how can he release said patient into the care of the parents?? The mother said the temperature went down to 102ºF on the ride home. The mother said she called the N.D. in the afternoon and informed him the temperature had gone down. So the N.D. knew the parents had not gone to the ER that afternoon, but it became an undiagnosed medical emergency later that night. “They said ‘Brooks, you have to come out of your house right now… we have to check on them [kids],’ and I said, ‘I have Heber in my arms, he’s doing fine, his temperature is 100 degrees. So, in the course of their nighttime investigation, DCS is outside his door telling him he must come out, and he says the child is fine and his temperature is 100 degrees. Why didn't they force entry at that time? After that, What could they possibly tell the judge? They have a non-professional opinion that the child might have infectious meningitis? -“Brooks and Sarah refused to come outside and refused to let DCS check on the welfare of [the child].” -“There was a court order signed by the judge giving DCS temporary custody of [the child] in order to get him medical treatment.” - - - - - - - - - - How could these medical incompetents possibly swear to a judge that there affirmatively was a present danger, or that it required immediate medical attention? If so, they could have brought a doctor, or at least a quick read thermometer. There is that little problem that they had no judge's order when they made their request. They requested the judge's order in response to that. What statement or medical record did they obtain from the naturopathic provider who was incompetent to render a competent professional medical opinion on whether the child did, or did not, have contagious meningitis, any other bacterial infection, or the flu. Over on the other thread, So, they concluded coughing means meningitis? https://www.healthline.com/health/meningitis Coughing does not appear to be a symptom of bacterial or other meningitis. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/symptoms-causes/syc-20351719 Dry, persistent cough; nasal congestion; and sore throat are symptoms of the flu, a viral infection. So they broke in the door and, That is worse than the DNC on spin cycle. The police found the children symptomatic. In their very best competent professional medical opinion, they found the children symptomatic of what? What exactly is their expertise in medical diagnostics? Ph.D., piled higher and deeper? There was absolutely no basis for the claim that the naturopath's concerns were unfounded. If the naturopath's concerns, whatever they may have been, were well founded, why was only one child admitted? According to the medical expertise indicated in the police report, all three of the children were found "symptomatic." What, one had more serious symptoms of contagious bacterial meningitis than the other two? Two symptomatic children could be released and not need isolation to protect the world from contagious infectious meningitis? And it appears the parents were not checked out for bugsies at all. While doctors admitted Heder to treat his symptoms, that falls far short of stating Heder had contagious bacterial meningitis, or any bacterial infection at all. Maybe Heder was dehydrated and they hooked him up to a bag of fluids to treat his symptoms from the flu. What was his temperature at the house? What emergency care was given? What was the child's temperature at admittance? In any case, this information was not available when authorities requested, and the judge ordered the forced entry. One may not bootstrap information found after the fact to justify the order. What evidence did the judge have that there was a medical emergency that night? A veterinarian may be better qualified to diagnose a bacterial infection than anyone involved in this matter prior to arrrival at the hospital. Do the belated concerns of the N.D., on their own, justify the nighttime forced entry? What else did they have? There is the alleged temperature of 105º attributed to a naturopath, at some unidentified time. The mother called the N.D. later, sometime in the afternoon. DCS showed up still later, that night. The father told the police, on the phone, the child's temperature was then 100º. Did they check the temperature with a quick read thermometer? It only takes seconds. The question is whether there was a medical emergency at nighttime when requesting a judge to authorize a forced entry. Did the N.D. call the receiving hospital and forward the medical record? If not, why not? I would bet the farm that the N.D. did not call the hospital, did not forward the medical record, and did not provide medical paperwork to the parents to take with them. Did the judge speak to the N.D.? Did the judge inquire and know that the doctor in question was an N.D., not an M.D.? Did the requesting authority make that known to the judge? Did the requesting authority make known to the judge that the N.D. was incompetent to render a medical diagnosis of meningitis or bacterial infection, and that he did not make any such diagnosis? Was the judge informed that the father just told the police that the child's temperature was 100°? Quite simply, did they have sufficient competent information to make breaking down the door legal? Did the requesting authority withhold relevant information? [Think FISA warrant.] The judge and DCS and the N.D. may yet have some splainin' to do. Another masterpiece of obfuscatory writing with the passive tense has the decision appear to have descended from the heavens. It is not attributed to any person or agency. The decision was an orphan that just appeared.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
Was that obvious to the naturopathic doctor, or do you and I just have psychic abilities not apparent in the N.D.? He allegedly had a child with a 105º fever. He delivered the child back into the care and custody of parents who were "true believers" in "natural medicine." And why did he believe they would? Later that day, did he develop a concern about the child or his license? Assuming he had been correct in his incompetent non-professional suspicion, and the child died that night, how would he explain returning the child with the 105° fever to the care and custody of true believers in natural medicine?
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
It was “obvious” to me because with a child having a temperature of 105 (if information in the article is correct) and we don’t know of any other symptoms the child may have had, they went to a ND instead of the ER in Chandler. Do you?
These believers in “natural medicine” did not go. And why did he believe they would?
But it was reported that the mother called him later that day and told him she had not taken the child to the ER. If that be true, I can readily assume that was “when” he “again” become concerned about the child. And maybe also concern about his license. I will add … And also concern about the possibility of a lawsuit for malpractice. Who knows? Only that ND knows …
When those inside the house continued to refuse to open the door, police said, "The decision was made to force entry of the home for DCS in order to take custody of the child." I could take a couple stabs at the meaning or intended meaning. But I’d rather not.
And the fawning media, busy fellating the jackbooted CPS and cops for their kidnapping under color of authority, never bother to point out just how shady and lawyerly these "official statements" really are. It sounds like the authorities already know they did wrong and are perhaps withholding these children from their parents while they figure out a way to keep from getting their asses sued off in court. Outstanding post, start to finish.
The extremely relevant point is that the N.D. could not make a diagnosis. He lacked competency to do so. The doctor was REQUIIRED by LAW, as defined by ARS 13-3620 to report all concerns of child abuse or neglect. You are much better at reading this stuff than I. Check the law. Does it say anything about a proper “diagnosis” or even “lacking the competency to do so?” I can find nowhere in the law that says it does. Maybe you can. What I do find is this I find nowhere in the law that “reasonable belief” is defined. Maybe you can. So, who decides “reasonable belief?” Does the doctor decide that he has “reasonable belief” in order not to violate the law and face criminal charges if something terrible had happened to the child because he did not receive proper medical treatment? Can we safely assume that the doctor is the one to decide that? Just asking.
But it is entirely irrelevant if I am reading the law correctly. And again, I say that you can read the law much better than I. So you will need to show me that the law requires “the N.D. [to be] licensed and competent to render a competent medical professional opinion of a positive or negative diagnosis of infectious meningitis.” I don’t find where that is required, What I find require is that which I have already stated…that the N.D. have “reasonable belief?” Did he? I don’t know. I can only assume that he did since he felt he must comply with ARS 13-3620. Continuing on … Where did you read the N.D. even made a “diagnosis of infectious meningitis?” I never read that he did. I read that the mother only said he “mentioned” meningitis and I have no way of knowing in what context he used that if he did at all. If he did mention the word, what if any other words did he also mention as a “possibility” that the mother forgot to “mention” at her media interview? So, what was neccery for the N.D. to have so that he MUST comply with ARS 13-3620. … reasonable belief … That’s what I see the law requires? What do you see?
However, staying on my point, I will continue to address the responsibilities of the N.D. and say that according to law all he needed to comply with ARS 13-3620 and notify CPS was reasonable belief. And I would hope logically think that he had since he called them. You have posed far too much for me to continue to "parse? your post. I will be happy to address one specific item at at time, if you so choose to present one.
[#51] I have no idea what was obvious to the naturopathic doctor. We know what is obvious to you, me, and most people of reasonable intelligence.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
And why did he believe they would? [52] That is a question that would need be asked of him. If he were competent to determine it was an emergency medical situation and the child needed to go to a real doctor, he would have been professionally responsible to make sure it happened. But then, the N.D. is not hot held medically competent, and is not required to even report negligence, even when he suspects negligence.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
But I’d rather not. I'll try. Nobody wanted to take ownership of the decision after the fact. It would appear that DCS obtained an order to take temporary custody of one child. It does not appear that anyone obtained a court order to search, seize, or force entry at 1 a.m. in the morning.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
At this point, it looks like a CYA operation. It appears they did not break down the door "later that night," but later at 1 a.m. the early morning of the next day. March 4, 2019 by Brian Shilhavy [excerpts] Secondly, if there was only a court order for the removal of one child, why did they take all three? The mother reports that she had offered to return to the family doctor so the doctor could see for herself that the child was doing better. The father reports that an emergency room visit would have cost them over $2500. [...] They still do not know where their children are located. When they showed up at a meeting with DCS, they were reportedly told that the agency “had to cancel the meeting.” I believe the real problem is that the request to the judge is going to resemble a FISA request to spy on Trump associates. Exaggerated shit is in, and required relevant shit is deliberately left out. Based solely on the known facts, I see no way for a fully informed judge to grant an order to break down the door at one in the morning. A short time later, police broke down their front door. “Guns drawn, flashlights shining on me.. they saw me and asked me to put my hands up,” Bryce said. He was handcuffed, while police checked on his kids. The family’s three kids were placed in DCS custody. The police report says the decision to use forced entry was made because there was a present danger to the 2-year-old boy that required immediate medical attention. The report also says police forced entry into the home because Beck and Bryce refused to come out and because DCS has a signed order by the judge. A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
No, the is not the “extremely [relevant] point.” Yes, it is extremely relevant for a report of a "doctor" to indicate if he is not a competent medical doctor. It is misleading to identify him as a doctor, rather than as a medically impompetent average joe. A "concern" of a medical incompetent cannot be the judicial basis to declare a medical emergency and a forced entry. … reasonable belief - reasonable belief - reasonable belief … I find nowhere in the law that “reasonable belief” is defined. Maybe you can. I do not find naturopath in the list of people with a reporting requiring requirement pursuant to Section A under its definition of "all persons" included within that subsection. I also find Subsection F which applies to everyone not on that list.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
I don’t find where that is required, What I find require is that which I have already stated…that the N.D. have “reasonable belief?” Did he? Did he what? ARS 13-3620 [...] So you will need to show me that the law requires “the N.D. [to be] licensed and competent to render a competent medical professional opinion of a positive or negative diagnosis of infectious meningitis.” I don’t find where that is required, What I find require is that which I have already stated…that the N.D. have “reasonable belief?” Did he? I don’t know. I can only assume that he did since he felt he must comply with ARS 13-3620. [...] So, what was neccery for the N.D. to have so that he MUST comply with ARS 13-3620. … reasonable belief … That’s what I see the law requires? What do you see? Not what you see. Before presuming to tell me what ARS 13-3620 requires, I would recommend carefully reading it. https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03620.htm A. Any person who reasonably believes that a minor is or has been the victim of physical injury, abuse, child abuse, a reportable offense or neglect that appears to have been inflicted on the minor by other than accidental means or that is not explained by the available medical history as being accidental in nature or who reasonably believes there has been a denial or deprivation of necessary medical treatment or surgical care or nourishment with the intent to cause or allow the death of an infant who is protected under section 36-2281 shall immediately report or cause reports to be made of this information to a peace officer, to the department of child safety or to a tribal law enforcement or social services agency for any Indian minor who resides on an Indian reservation, except if the report concerns a person who does not have care, custody or control of the minor, the report shall be made to a peace officer only. A member of the clergy, a Christian Science practitioner or a priest who has received a confidential communication or a confession in that person's role as a member of the clergy, as a Christian Science practitioner or as a priest in the course of the discipline enjoined by the church to which the member of the clergy, the Christian Science practitioner or the priest belongs may withhold reporting of the communication or confession if the member of the clergy, the Christian Science practitioner or the priest determines that it is reasonable and necessary within the concepts of the religion. This exemption applies only to the communication or confession and not to personal observations the member of the clergy, the Christian Science practitioner or the priest may otherwise make of the minor. For the purposes of this subsection, "person" means: 1. Any physician, physician's assistant, optometrist, dentist, osteopath, chiropractor, podiatrist, behavioral health professional, nurse, psychologist, counselor or social worker who develops the reasonable belief in the course of treating a patient. 2. Any peace officer, child welfare investigator, child safety worker, member of the clergy, priest or Christian Science practitioner. 3. The parent, stepparent or guardian of the minor. 4. School personnel, domestic violence victim advocates or sexual assault victim advocates who develop the reasonable belief in the course of their employment. 5. Any other person who has responsibility for the care or treatment of the minor. B. A report is not required under this section either: 1. For conduct prescribed by sections 13-1404 and 13-1405 if the conduct involves only minors who are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen or seventeen years of age and there is nothing to indicate that the conduct is other than consensual. 2. If a minor is of elementary school age, the physical injury occurs accidentally in the course of typical playground activity during a school day, occurs on the premises of the school that the minor attends and is reported to the legal parent or guardian of the minor and the school maintains a written record of the incident. C. If a physician, psychologist or behavioral health professional receives a statement from a person other than a parent, stepparent, guardian or custodian of the minor during the course of providing sex offender treatment that is not court ordered or that does not occur while the offender is incarcerated in the state department of corrections or the department of juvenile corrections, the physician, psychologist or behavioral health professional may withhold the reporting of that statement if the physician, psychologist or behavioral health professional determines it is reasonable and necessary to accomplish the purposes of the treatment. D. Reports shall be made immediately either electronically or by telephone. The reports shall contain the following information, if known: 1. The names and addresses of the minor and the minor's parents or the person or persons having custody of the minor. 2. The minor's age and the nature and extent of the minor's abuse, child abuse, physical injury or neglect, including any evidence of previous abuse, child abuse, physical injury or neglect. 3. Any other information that the person believes might be helpful in establishing the cause of the abuse, child abuse, physical injury or neglect. E. A health care professional who is regulated pursuant to title 32 and who, after a routine newborn physical assessment of a newborn infant's health status or following notification of positive toxicology screens of a newborn infant, reasonably believes that the newborn infant may be affected by the presence of alcohol or a drug listed in section 13-3401 shall immediately report this information, or cause a report to be made, to the department of child safety. For the purposes of this subsection, "newborn infant" means a newborn infant who is under thirty days of age. F. Any person other than one required to report or cause reports to be made under subsection A of this section who reasonably believes that a minor is or has been a victim of abuse, child abuse, physical injury, a reportable offense or neglect may report the information to a peace officer or to the department of child safety, except if the report concerns a person who does not have care, custody or control of the minor, the report shall be made to a peace officer only. G. A person who has custody or control of medical records of a minor for whom a report is required or authorized under this section shall make the records, or a copy of the records, available to a peace officer, child welfare investigator or child safety worker investigating the minor's neglect, child abuse, physical injury or abuse on written request for the records signed by the peace officer, child welfare investigator or child safety worker. Records disclosed pursuant to this subsection are confidential and may be used only in a judicial or administrative proceeding or investigation resulting from a report required or authorized under this section. H. When reports are received by a peace officer, the officer shall immediately notify the department of child safety. Notwithstanding any other statute, when the department receives these reports, it shall immediately notify a peace officer in the appropriate jurisdiction. I. Any person who is required to receive reports pursuant to subsection A of this section may take or cause to be taken photographs of the minor and the vicinity involved. Medical examinations of the involved minor may be performed. J. A person who furnishes a report, information or records required or authorized under this section, or a person who participates in a judicial or administrative proceeding or investigation resulting from a report, information or records required or authorized under this section, is immune from any civil or criminal liability by reason of that action unless the person acted with malice or unless the person has been charged with or is suspected of abusing or neglecting the child or children in question. K. Except for the attorney client privilege or the privilege under subsection L of this section, no privilege applies to any: 1. Civil or criminal litigation or administrative proceeding in which a minor's neglect, dependency, abuse, child abuse, physical injury or abandonment is an issue. 2. Judicial or administrative proceeding resulting from a report, information or records submitted pursuant to this section. 3. Investigation of a minor's child abuse, physical injury, neglect or abuse conducted by a peace officer or the department of child safety. L. In any civil or criminal litigation in which a child's neglect, dependency, physical injury, abuse, child abuse or abandonment is an issue, a member of the clergy, a Christian Science practitioner or a priest shall not, without his consent, be examined as a witness concerning any confession made to him in his role as a member of the clergy, a Christian Science practitioner or a priest in the course of the discipline enjoined by the church to which he belongs. This subsection does not discharge a member of the clergy, a Christian Science practitioner or a priest from the duty to report pursuant to subsection A of this section. M. If psychiatric records are requested pursuant to subsection G of this section, the custodian of the records shall notify the attending psychiatrist, who may excise from the records, before they are made available: 1. Personal information about individuals other than the patient. 2. Information regarding specific diagnosis or treatment of a psychiatric condition, if the attending psychiatrist certifies in writing that release of the information would be detrimental to the patient's health or treatment. N. If any portion of a psychiatric record is excised pursuant to subsection M of this section, a court, on application of a peace officer, child welfare investigator or child safety worker, may order that the entire record or any portion of the record that contains information relevant to the reported abuse, child abuse, physical injury or neglect be made available to the peace officer, child welfare investigator or child safety worker investigating the abuse, child abuse, physical injury or neglect. O. A person who violates this section is guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor, except if the failure to report involves a reportable offense, the person is guilty of a class 6 felony. P. For the purposes of this section: 1. "Abuse" has the same meaning prescribed in section 8-201. 2. "Child abuse" means child abuse pursuant to section 13-3623. 3. "Neglect" has the same meaning prescribed in section 8-201. 4. "Reportable offense" means any of the following: (a) Any offense listed in chapters 14 and 35.1 of this title or section 13-3506.01. (b) Surreptitious photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording or viewing a minor pursuant to section 13-3019. (c) Child sex trafficking pursuant to section 13-3212. (d) Incest pursuant to section 13-3608. (e) Unlawful mutilation pursuant to section 13-1214. As Arizona 13-3620. Duty to report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors; medical records; exception; violation; classification; definitions," makes excruciatingly clear, "any person" as used in the reporting requirement section means: who develops the reasonable belief in the course of treating a patient. That list does not include witch doctors, veterinarians, or naturopaths. However, for those required to make a report, they "shall immediately report or cause reports to be made." Witch doctors, veterinarians, naturopaths and garbage collectors would fall under subsection F, not subsection A. As a medical incompetent, the N.D. may report the information of his suspicion of neglect. His suspicion alone is not sufficient to establish any medical diagnosis. A court order enabling a health and welfare check is not a court order enabling a visit with a SWAT team and forced entry at 1 a.m. in the morning, nor is it a declaration of a medical emergency.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
These are the most relevant points on the thread. Was there legally sufficient information to a judge to break down the door at 1 in the morning? Far less relevant are the medical abilities and reporting requirements of the witch doctor. The N.D. could have had a Ph.d. in basket weaving and it would have made little difference. For your convenience, I provided a copy of ARS 13-3620 so you can read it and ascertain that the N.D. did not have a reporting requirement. He is not medically competent to be burdened with that reporting requirement.
A kid swallowed all the Scrabble letters. Now his poop shows more intelligence than a libertarian.
I told you that ARS 13-360 required him to make a report. I stand by that.
You say: I have again read the statute and I disagree with you. This ND – and all NDs – practicing in Arizona have a reporting requirement under ARS 13-3620. You also say: There is no Pediatrician, Obstetrician/Gynecologist, Surgeon, Cardiologist, Dermatologist, Endocrinologist, Gastroenterologist, Nephrologist, Ophthalmologist, Otolaryngologist, Pulmonologist, Neurologist, Radiologist, Anesthesiologist or Oncologist on the list, but they are all physicians and you will find that “any physician” is on the list. It is in fact first on the list. And a ND is “any physician,” I must respectfully call to your attention that a naturopathic physician or doctor (NMD or ND) is also on list as “any physician” since he/she has earned an ND or NMD degree from a naturopathic medical school. He or she studies all the basic medical coursework an MD would study, plus the more “natural” sciences including nutrition, botanical medicine (herbals), and mental health studies like psychology or counseling. ND = Naturopathic Doctor and NMD = Naturopathic Medical Doctor. Both these names and abbreviations mean the same thing. An individual who has earned this title usually chooses the one he or she prefers based on where they received their medical education. If a ND desires to become licensed as general practice (primary care) doctors, he/she may take regular MD board certification exams to become licensed as general practice (primary care) doctors. So Subsection F has nothing to do anything here since a ND is a physician the same as a MD is a physician. Your argument as I see it is that he is not a physician. I contend from everything I read that a ND is as much a physician as a MD is a physician. A ND meets all the educational requirements on the same subjects as a MD. And if a NM may take regular MD board certification exams to become licensed as general practice (primary care) doctors.
I believe this is as official for the state of Arizona as we are ever going to find. The az.gov website shows they are physicians and Arizona even has a Naturopathic Physicians Medical Board. ARS 13-3620 states that “any physician” must “report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors when any physician who develops the reasonable belief in the course of treating a patient it to the department of child safety. The ND is the article did that and as a “any physician” he complied with the law. They are definitely physicians and I am through here.
The abuse of legal authority really stinks. It was what drew my interest, no doubt many others noticed it too, just as you did.
#31. To: GrandIsland (#30)
#32. To: buckeroo (#31)
#33. To: GrandIsland (#32)
#34. To: buckeroo, GrandIsland, Che Gatlin (#33)
your posts having over 50,000 rounds of ammunition preparing for some make-believe war.
#35. To: buckeroo (#33)
#36. To: hondo68 (#34)
#37. To: GrandIsland (#35)
It was your Paultard buddies that first started to claim we are gonna collapse and a revolution would follow.
#38. To: buckeroo (#37)
#39. To: GrandIsland (#35)
boris
#40. To: BorisY (#39)
Jim Jones
#41. To: BorisY (#39)
#42. To: Deckard (#0)
#43. To: GrandIsland, buckeroo, hondo68 (#28)
You can’t make it on a UFC fight card if you’re an over sensitized pussy...
The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning.
Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.
#44. To: Deckard, LGBTQetc Canaries (#43)
#45. To: GrandIsland, A K A Stone (#42)
Have you noticed the correlation between grandchildren fuckers and government/cop haters?
The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning.
Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.
#46. To: GrandIsland (#38)
I hope some situation develops where it’s legal for me to hunt snowflakes, welfare, illegals, drug addicts and libertarians.
The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning.
Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.
#47. To: Deckard (#45)
#48. To: GrandIsland (#47)
convincing Stone to ban all voices that aren’t anti cop, pro drugs.
The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning.
Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.
#49. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, Tooconservative (#16)
The doctor could not make a medical diagnosis because he did not have the equipment at the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine.
The doctor was an ND and not a MD trained in the diagnosis and treatment of meningitis.
The question remains unaddressed in why the couple did not go directly to the ER with a child having 105 degree temperature. Since they went directly to a ND I have the distinct they couple are true believers in Naturopathic Medicine. I am surprised the ND even instructed them to go to the ER. I believe he did so because of his deep concern about meningitis
The doctor, learning they had not gone to the ER, called DCS, and later that night, the family got a visit from Chandler police.
After receiving the report from the doctor, DCS reached out to the parents to investigate. Brooks said that he spoke with a social worker and refused to take his son to the hospital. Brooks told AZ Family,
Unable to convince the couple to take Heder to the hospital, DCS requested a temporary custody order from a judge.
Details from the police report:
-“there was a present danger [to the child] that required immediate medical attention”
-“there was a present danger [to the child] that required immediate medical attention”
-“Brooks and Sarah refused to come outside and refused to let DCS check on the welfare of [the child].”
-“There was a court order signed by the judge giving DCS temporary custody of [the child] in order to get him medical treatment.”
Officers went to the family's home to check the child's welfare, but no one answered the door, even though police could hear "someone coughing inside one of the bedrooms," according to the police report.
Inside the home, the police say they found all three children sick and symptomatic.
After completing a search of the home, the police called for an ambulance. Two of the children were taken by ambulance to the hospital. A DCS worker took the third child to the hospital by car. The naturopath’s concerns were not unfounded. Doctors admitted Heder into the hospital to treat his symptoms.
When those inside the house continued to refuse to open the door, police said, "The decision was made to force entry of the home for DCS in order to take custody of the child."
#50. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, Tooconservative (#17)
It is obvious this couple were true believers in “natural medicine” because they went to a ND in College of Naturopathic Medicine.
These believers in “natural medicine” did not go.
#51. To: nolu chan (#50)
It is obvious this couple were true believers in “natural medicine” because they went to a ND in College of Naturopathic Medicine.
It was obvious (I should have added “to me”) … Was that obvious to the naturopathic doctor …
I have no idea what was obvious to the naturopathic doctor. I don’t even know if he “mentioned” meningitis, as it reported the mother stated to the media. I can only believe that SOMETHING was obvious to the ND that the child needed to go t the ER and that he felt it was severe enough to call DCS. … or do you and I just have psychic abilities not apparent in the N.D.?
I of course do not.
#52. To: nolu chan (#50)
He allegedly had a child with a 105º fever. He delivered the child back into the care and custody of parents who were "true believers" in "natural medicine."
That is a question that would need be asked of him.
#53. To: nolu chan (#50)
Later that day, did he develop a concern about the child or his license?
I have no idea.
#54. To: nolu chan (#49)
Another masterpiece of obfuscatory writing with the passive tense has the decision appear to have descended from the heavens. It is not attributed to any person or agency.
That’s true. The decision was an orphan that just appeared.
That I don’t understand.
#55. To: nolu chan (#49)
Another masterpiece of obfuscatory writing with the passive tense has the decision appear to have descended from the heavens. It is not attributed to any person or agency. The decision was an orphan that just appeared.
#56. To: nolu chan (#49)
(Edited)
The doctor could not make a medical diagnosis because he did not have the equipment at the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine.
No, the is not the “extremely point.” [….]
… reasonable belief - reasonable belief - reasonable belief …
12-3620. Duty to report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors; medical records; exception; violation; classification; definitions
[….]
1. Any physician, physician's assistant, optometrist, dentist, osteopath, chiropractor, podiatrist, behavioral health professional, nurse, psychologist, counselor or social worker who develops the reasonable belief in the course of treating a patient.
[….]
#57. To: nolu chan (#49)
Given all the equipment he desired, was the N.D. licensed and competent to render a competent medical professional opinion of a positive or negative diagnosis of infectious meningitis? The answer appears clear that he was not.
Good point, Counselor.
#58. To: nolu chan (#49)
However, that is not the question I address in this case. It is not a case of what the parents should have done, but whether the N.D. failed in his professional responsibilities, or the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority.
I will not addres the aspects of concerning whether the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority. I can do so only after I have all available information concerning this situation.
#59. To: Gatlin (#51)
It is obvious this couple were true believers in “natural medicine” because they went to a ND in College of Naturopathic Medicine.
#60. To: Gatlin (#52)
These believers in “natural medicine” did not go.
#61. To: Gatlin (#54)
The decision was an orphan that just appeared.
[#54] I could take a couple stabs at the meaning or intended meaning.
#62. To: Tooconservative (#55)
Editor, Health Impact News First of all, if there was imminent danger to the child, why did social workers and police wait until after midnight to go to the family’s home?
He showed 12 News surveillance footage that captures Chandler PD pounding on his front door, saying they have a signed court order from DCS. The police report says the DCS investigator on scene got the order by a judge to give DCS temporary custody of their 2-year-old son, Heber, to get medically checked.
#63. To: Gatlin (#56)
The extremely relevant point is that the N.D. could not make a diagnosis. He lacked competency to do so.
What I do find is this
[….] 12-3620. Duty to report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors; medical records; exception; violation; classification; definitions [….] 1. Any physician, physician's assistant, optometrist, dentist, osteopath, chiropractor, podiatrist, behavioral health professional, nurse, psychologist, counselor or social worker who develops the reasonable belief in the course of treating a patient. [….]
#64. To: Gatlin (#57)
[57] So you will need to show me that the law requires “the N.D. [to be] licensed and competent to render a competent medical professional opinion of a positive or negative diagnosis of infectious meningitis.”
[57]
13-3620. Duty to report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors; medical records; exception; violation; classification; definitions
Any physician,
physician's assistant,
optometrist,
dentist,
osteopath,
chiropractor,
podiatrist,
behavioral health professional,
nurse,
psychologist,
counselor or social workerF. Any person other than one required to report or cause reports to be made under subsection A of this section who reasonably believes that a minor is or has been a victim of abuse, child abuse, physical injury, a reportable offense or neglect may report the information to a peace officer or to the department of child safety, except if the report concerns a person who does not have care, custody or control of the minor, the report shall be made to a peace officer only.
#65. To: Gatlin (#58)
[58] I will not addres the aspects of concerning whether the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority. I can do so only after I have all available information concerning this situation.
[58] However, staying on my point, I will continue to address the responsibilities of the N.D. and say that according to law all he needed to comply with ARS 13-3620 and notify CPS was reasonable belief.
#66. To: nolu chan (#64)
Not what you see. Before presuming to tell me what ARS 13-3620 requires, I would recommend carefully reading it.
#67. To: nolu chan (#65)
(Edited)
For your convenience, I provided a copy of ARS 13-3620 so you can read it and ascertain that the N.D. did not have a reporting requirement.
Thank you for your courtesy to provide a copy oi ARS 13-3620 but I have already read it. I will however read it again. I do not find naturopath in the list of people with a reporting requiring requirement pursuant to Section A under its definition of "all persons" included within that subsection.
That is true. Naturopath is not on the list and naturopath can never be on the list because a naturopath or naturopathic practitioner isn’t a physician or doctor. Smart people understand the differences between a naturopath and a real, medical, naturopathic doctor. You obviously don’t know the difference for sometimes us call him a naturopath and other times you call him a N.D. I also find Subsection F which applies to everyone not on that list.
Subsection F does apply to everyone no on that list. And any person other than one required to report or cause reports to be made under subsection A. He is not medically competent to be burdened with that reporting requirement.
I have no idea as to the state of his competency. That is immaterial. He is burdened with the reporting requirement under Arizona law.
#68. To: nolu chan (#67)
#69. To: nolu chan (#62)
I believe the real problem is that the request to the judge is going to resemble a FISA request to spy on Trump associates. Exaggerated shit is in, and required relevant shit is deliberately left out. Based solely on the known facts, I see no way for a fully informed judge to grant an order to break down the door at one in the morning.
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