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Title: Chandler police remove kids from home after sick child not taken to hospital
Source:
AZ Family
URL Source: https://www.azfamily.com/news/chand ... 9a-11e9-abf4-7fa4eaa39a0b.html
Published: Mar 2, 2019
Author: News Staff
Post Date: 2019-03-02 13:59:38 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 4768
Comments: 69
CHANDLER, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) - It's been almost three days since a Chandler couple last saw their children. It all began with a trip to the doctor because their toddler had a high fever. Now all three of their children are in the custody of the Department of Child Safety. Police said the incident started on Feb. 25, when parents Sarah Beck and Brooks Bryce brought their 2-year-old son Heber to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine because the child was suffering from a fever. Beck says the doctor found Heber's temperature to be 105 degrees and instructed them to take him to the ER, mentioning a concern for meningitis. Once in her car, his mother retook his temperature and found it was going down. "He's acting normal. He's dancing with his sisters in his car seat. And I take his temperature and it's 102," said Beck. So they went home. She says by then the fever had dropped even more. "We love our children, we love them. If our children needed help, we would absolutely help them," said Beck. "I told the doctor that I'd bring my son back for her to check and make sure that his fever was lower, and she said she wouldn't see him, and I had to take him in." The doctor, learning they had not gone to the ER, called DCS, and later that night, the family got a visit from Chandler police. Officers went to the family's home to check the child's welfare, but no one answered the door, even though police could hear "someone coughing inside one of the bedrooms," according to the police report. After several failed attempts to get someone to open the door, police called the boy's father. Police said Bryce answered the phone but told police that his son's fever had broken and "he was fine." According to the police report, Bryce was "argumentative and refused to exit the residence to talk with officers or DCS investigators." "Like we're holding our kids hostage or they're deathly ill or barely alive. He was perfectly fine. He was in my arms sleeping. As I was on the phone with the officer I took his temperature, it was 100 degrees. There's no reason to give up my kids because he has a temperature of 100 degrees and sleeping," said Bryce. When those inside the house continued to refuse to open the door, police said, "The decision was made to force entry of the home for DCS in order to take custody of the child." According to the police report, they made the decision to go inside the home because: -"there was a present danger [to the child] that required immediate medical attention" -"Brooks and Sarah refused to come outside and refused to let DCS check on the welfare of [the child]." -"There was a court order signed by the judge giving DCS temporary custody of [the child] in order to get him medical treatment." So, police forced open the door. According to the police statement: "The front door was breached and the family members were called out of the residence." The family's security camera recorded the moment police kicked open the door. Inside the residence, two additional children (aged 4 and 6) were located, and police say they were also suffering "similar symptoms to include vomiting," according to the police document. Inside the home, police said conditions were so cluttered and messy in the children's rooms that it was "difficult to walk in the rooms." One officer wrote in the police report, "There was clutter everywhere. The house was filled with items everywhere I looked." The officer also said there were stains in the children's bedrooms and that children had told police they had vomited several times in their beds. Police also said that inside the parents' room, "a shotgun was lying next to the bed, against the wall, and was not locked or secured." "The clutter was laundry on our couch," said Bryce. He says the children had been vomiting, but they were moved from their beds to sleep with their parents after messing their own beds. As for the shotgun, he said, "it actually is inert. It does not work." Two of the children were transported to the hospital by ambulance, while the third was transported by DCS. The 2-year-old was later admitted to the hospital, according to police. Their parents have not heard from them since. "I'm just beside myself. I just want my kids. I just want to know are they OK?" said Beck. No charges were filed at the time. But police said detectives will follow up to determine if there are any criminal charges to pursue against the parents.
Poster Comment: Re-posted from another source because the site owner objected to a word in the title.
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 68.
#7. To: Deckard (#0)
The story on this thread was written this way: Twenty-four hours late, Heber died from a form of bacterial meningitis, leaving the couple from Chandler, Arizona, grieving the loss of their child and looking to spread a message to other parents. […]
Fearmongering tool! Police said Bryce answered the phone but told police that his son's fever had broken and "he was fine." "Like we're holding our kids hostage or they're deathly ill or barely alive. He was perfectly fine. He was in my arms sleeping. As I was on the phone with the officer I took his temperature, it was 100 degrees. There's no reason to give up my kids because he has a temperature of 100 degrees and sleeping," said Bryce. Not surprised however that once again your socialist views on raising children has you siding with CPS and not the parents. Do you have any idea how criminally corrupt Child Protective Services is? That's a pity. The U.S. Foster Care System: Modern Day Slavery and Child Trafficking
Fearmongering tool! In law I would have been accused of entrapment. You were set up. The story I gave you was paraphrased from the story below. July 13, 2018 - By Scott Stump. Alex Dempsey and Gabriel Schultz thought their 4-month-old son, Killy, just had a normal fever when they picked him up from day care at the end of last month. Twenty-four hours later, on June 30, Killy died from a form of bacterial meningitis, leaving the couple from Richmond, Virginia, grieving the loss of their only child together and looking to spread a message to other parents. [….] Rest of story at the link: Couple whose infant son died from meningitis has message for other parents. This true story could have been their story … I’d say when a doctor “instructs” to take your baby to the ER that you do so.
They were with a "doctor" at a college of medicine. The "doctor" did not make a medical diagnosis, he mentioned a concern. The "doctor" advised the parents to go to the ER, presumably another facility altogether (read on). Why did the "doctor" release the patient to the parents rather than have the emergency patient transported to the ER if there was a "present danger" requiring "immediate attention?" H/T: nolu chan
They were with a "doctor" at a college of medicine. The "doctor" did not make a medical diagnosis, he mentioned a concern. The "doctor" advised the parents to go to the ER, presumably another facility altogether (read on). Why did the "doctor" release the patient to the parents rather than have the emergency patient transported to the ER if there was a "present danger" requiring "immediate attention?" H/T: nolu chan The Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences is the leading medical school dedicated to a comprehensive team approach to natural health. Did you read that….it said “natural health” and dealing with possible meningitis is definitely not NATURAL HEALTH. This college did not have the equipment to test for meningitis. (read pm) It is in some cases faster to drive to the ER than to call an ambulance. I know this from experience. Also I know 5hq5 calling an ambulance in Chandler and the surrounding area can cost as much as five thousand dollars. Sarah Beck and Brooks Bryce may not have had, or wanted to fork out, THOUSANDS of dollars for a few blocks ride in an ambulance when driving was much faster. (read on) The doctor was an ND and not a MD trained in the diagnosis and treatment of meningitis. The question remains unaddressed in why the couple did not go directly to the ER with a child having 105 degree temperature. Since they went directly to a ND I have the distinct they couple are true believers in Naturopathic Medicine. I am surprised the ND even instructed them to go to the ER. I believe he did so because of his deep concern about meningitis and Another distinct possibility is that these people may be true believers in “natural medicine” and would never go to an ER. We don’t know. Do you even know what natural medicine is? Probably not. Here, let me educate you. As Stone said earlier: “ I wonder if there is more to the story.” From what I have learned so far, there definitely has been lots of information omitted, either by design of ignorance. F/N: Gatlin
The extremely relevant point is that the N.D. could not make a diagnosis. He lacked competency to do so. Given all the equipment he desired, was the N.D. licensed and competent to render a competent medical professional opinion of a positive or negative diagnosis of infectious meningitis? The answer appears clear that he was not. That's much better. The N.D. was not trained to diagnose meningitis. I would also doubt his medical competence to differentiate between the symptoms of bacterial or viral infection. The judge acted with zero competent evidence that there was any bacterial infection. If a friend who had some medical knowledge, perhaps a former military corpman or medic, or an LPN expressed a belief that the child might have infectious meningitis, I should think that the parents should take the child to a competent medical professional. However, that is not the question I address in this case. It is not a case of what the parents should have done, but whether the N.D. failed in his professional responsibilities, or the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority. Notably absent from any recitation I have read so far is one syllable directly attributable to the N.D. If the N.D. believed it was probable that the child had infectious meningitis, he should have notified the receiving hospital so they could be prepared to receive a suspected infectious meningitis case, and forwarded the medical record. He should not have advised the parents to transport the child to some ER unannounced, there to plop in the waiting area to mix and mingle. The N.D. is without authority to order or instruct the parents that they must go to the ER. As an N.D., he must know that his business is significantly an assembly of people who choose not to go to medical doctors. If he has a patient with a 105ºF temperature, how can he release said patient into the care of the parents?? The mother said the temperature went down to 102ºF on the ride home. The mother said she called the N.D. in the afternoon and informed him the temperature had gone down. So the N.D. knew the parents had not gone to the ER that afternoon, but it became an undiagnosed medical emergency later that night. “They said ‘Brooks, you have to come out of your house right now… we have to check on them [kids],’ and I said, ‘I have Heber in my arms, he’s doing fine, his temperature is 100 degrees. So, in the course of their nighttime investigation, DCS is outside his door telling him he must come out, and he says the child is fine and his temperature is 100 degrees. Why didn't they force entry at that time? After that, What could they possibly tell the judge? They have a non-professional opinion that the child might have infectious meningitis? -“Brooks and Sarah refused to come outside and refused to let DCS check on the welfare of [the child].” -“There was a court order signed by the judge giving DCS temporary custody of [the child] in order to get him medical treatment.” - - - - - - - - - - How could these medical incompetents possibly swear to a judge that there affirmatively was a present danger, or that it required immediate medical attention? If so, they could have brought a doctor, or at least a quick read thermometer. There is that little problem that they had no judge's order when they made their request. They requested the judge's order in response to that. What statement or medical record did they obtain from the naturopathic provider who was incompetent to render a competent professional medical opinion on whether the child did, or did not, have contagious meningitis, any other bacterial infection, or the flu. Over on the other thread, So, they concluded coughing means meningitis? https://www.healthline.com/health/meningitis Coughing does not appear to be a symptom of bacterial or other meningitis. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/symptoms-causes/syc-20351719 Dry, persistent cough; nasal congestion; and sore throat are symptoms of the flu, a viral infection. So they broke in the door and, That is worse than the DNC on spin cycle. The police found the children symptomatic. In their very best competent professional medical opinion, they found the children symptomatic of what? What exactly is their expertise in medical diagnostics? Ph.D., piled higher and deeper? There was absolutely no basis for the claim that the naturopath's concerns were unfounded. If the naturopath's concerns, whatever they may have been, were well founded, why was only one child admitted? According to the medical expertise indicated in the police report, all three of the children were found "symptomatic." What, one had more serious symptoms of contagious bacterial meningitis than the other two? Two symptomatic children could be released and not need isolation to protect the world from contagious infectious meningitis? And it appears the parents were not checked out for bugsies at all. While doctors admitted Heder to treat his symptoms, that falls far short of stating Heder had contagious bacterial meningitis, or any bacterial infection at all. Maybe Heder was dehydrated and they hooked him up to a bag of fluids to treat his symptoms from the flu. What was his temperature at the house? What emergency care was given? What was the child's temperature at admittance? In any case, this information was not available when authorities requested, and the judge ordered the forced entry. One may not bootstrap information found after the fact to justify the order. What evidence did the judge have that there was a medical emergency that night? A veterinarian may be better qualified to diagnose a bacterial infection than anyone involved in this matter prior to arrrival at the hospital. Do the belated concerns of the N.D., on their own, justify the nighttime forced entry? What else did they have? There is the alleged temperature of 105º attributed to a naturopath, at some unidentified time. The mother called the N.D. later, sometime in the afternoon. DCS showed up still later, that night. The father told the police, on the phone, the child's temperature was then 100º. Did they check the temperature with a quick read thermometer? It only takes seconds. The question is whether there was a medical emergency at nighttime when requesting a judge to authorize a forced entry. Did the N.D. call the receiving hospital and forward the medical record? If not, why not? I would bet the farm that the N.D. did not call the hospital, did not forward the medical record, and did not provide medical paperwork to the parents to take with them. Did the judge speak to the N.D.? Did the judge inquire and know that the doctor in question was an N.D., not an M.D.? Did the requesting authority make that known to the judge? Did the requesting authority make known to the judge that the N.D. was incompetent to render a medical diagnosis of meningitis or bacterial infection, and that he did not make any such diagnosis? Was the judge informed that the father just told the police that the child's temperature was 100°? Quite simply, did they have sufficient competent information to make breaking down the door legal? Did the requesting authority withhold relevant information? [Think FISA warrant.] The judge and DCS and the N.D. may yet have some splainin' to do. Another masterpiece of obfuscatory writing with the passive tense has the decision appear to have descended from the heavens. It is not attributed to any person or agency. The decision was an orphan that just appeared.
However, staying on my point, I will continue to address the responsibilities of the N.D. and say that according to law all he needed to comply with ARS 13-3620 and notify CPS was reasonable belief. And I would hope logically think that he had since he called them. You have posed far too much for me to continue to "parse? your post. I will be happy to address one specific item at at time, if you so choose to present one.
These are the most relevant points on the thread. Was there legally sufficient information to a judge to break down the door at 1 in the morning? Far less relevant are the medical abilities and reporting requirements of the witch doctor. The N.D. could have had a Ph.d. in basket weaving and it would have made little difference. For your convenience, I provided a copy of ARS 13-3620 so you can read it and ascertain that the N.D. did not have a reporting requirement. He is not medically competent to be burdened with that reporting requirement.
You say: I have again read the statute and I disagree with you. This ND – and all NDs – practicing in Arizona have a reporting requirement under ARS 13-3620. You also say: There is no Pediatrician, Obstetrician/Gynecologist, Surgeon, Cardiologist, Dermatologist, Endocrinologist, Gastroenterologist, Nephrologist, Ophthalmologist, Otolaryngologist, Pulmonologist, Neurologist, Radiologist, Anesthesiologist or Oncologist on the list, but they are all physicians and you will find that “any physician” is on the list. It is in fact first on the list. And a ND is “any physician,” I must respectfully call to your attention that a naturopathic physician or doctor (NMD or ND) is also on list as “any physician” since he/she has earned an ND or NMD degree from a naturopathic medical school. He or she studies all the basic medical coursework an MD would study, plus the more “natural” sciences including nutrition, botanical medicine (herbals), and mental health studies like psychology or counseling. ND = Naturopathic Doctor and NMD = Naturopathic Medical Doctor. Both these names and abbreviations mean the same thing. An individual who has earned this title usually chooses the one he or she prefers based on where they received their medical education. If a ND desires to become licensed as general practice (primary care) doctors, he/she may take regular MD board certification exams to become licensed as general practice (primary care) doctors. So Subsection F has nothing to do anything here since a ND is a physician the same as a MD is a physician. Your argument as I see it is that he is not a physician. I contend from everything I read that a ND is as much a physician as a MD is a physician. A ND meets all the educational requirements on the same subjects as a MD. And if a NM may take regular MD board certification exams to become licensed as general practice (primary care) doctors.
I believe this is as official for the state of Arizona as we are ever going to find. The az.gov website shows they are physicians and Arizona even has a Naturopathic Physicians Medical Board. ARS 13-3620 states that “any physician” must “report abuse, physical injury, neglect and denial or deprivation of medical or surgical care or nourishment of minors when any physician who develops the reasonable belief in the course of treating a patient it to the department of child safety. The ND is the article did that and as a “any physician” he complied with the law. They are definitely physicians and I am through here.
There are no replies to Comment # 68. End Trace Mode for Comment # 68.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Beck says the doctor found Heber's temperature to be 105 degrees and instructed them to take him to the ER, mentioning a concern for meningitis. Once in her car, his mother retook his temperature and found it was 102.
The story could have been just as easily written this way: Sarah Beck and Brooks Bryce decided the 105 degree fever their child, Heber, had was of no concern after they returned to their car and the mother retook his temperature and found it was 102.
#9. To: Gatlin (#7)
(Edited)
Twenty-four hours late, Heber died from a form of bacterial meningitis
#13. To: Deckard (#9)
Twenty-four hours late, Heber died from a form of bacterial meningitis
Couple whose infant son died from meningitis has message for other parents
The Chandler couple was lucky, but I have a feeling they will never realize it. 
Four-month-old Killy Schultz, pictured with mother Alex Dempsey, died 24 hours after first showing symptoms of meningitis. Alex Dempsey
#15. To: Gatlin, nolu chan (#13)
I’d say when a doctor “instructs” to take your baby to the ER that you do so.
#16. To: Deckard, A K A Stone (#15)
I’d say when a doctor “instructs” to take your baby to the ER that you do so.
The doctor could not make a medical diagnosis because he did not have the equipment at the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine. (read on) Natural medicine can also be referred to as naturopathy; it is a form of alternative medicine which involves homeopathy, herbalism, acupuncture, diet and lifestyle counselling, and more. It is thought that naturopathy originates back to 400BC and its founding principles were discovered by the Greek philosopher Hippocrates.
It is known that some people in the “alternative medical practices” are FANATIC.
#49. To: Gatlin, Deckard, A K A Stone, Tooconservative (#16)
The doctor could not make a medical diagnosis because he did not have the equipment at the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine.
The doctor was an ND and not a MD trained in the diagnosis and treatment of meningitis.
The question remains unaddressed in why the couple did not go directly to the ER with a child having 105 degree temperature. Since they went directly to a ND I have the distinct they couple are true believers in Naturopathic Medicine. I am surprised the ND even instructed them to go to the ER. I believe he did so because of his deep concern about meningitis
The doctor, learning they had not gone to the ER, called DCS, and later that night, the family got a visit from Chandler police.
After receiving the report from the doctor, DCS reached out to the parents to investigate. Brooks said that he spoke with a social worker and refused to take his son to the hospital. Brooks told AZ Family,
Unable to convince the couple to take Heder to the hospital, DCS requested a temporary custody order from a judge.
Details from the police report:
-“there was a present danger [to the child] that required immediate medical attention”
-“there was a present danger [to the child] that required immediate medical attention”
-“Brooks and Sarah refused to come outside and refused to let DCS check on the welfare of [the child].”
-“There was a court order signed by the judge giving DCS temporary custody of [the child] in order to get him medical treatment.”
Officers went to the family's home to check the child's welfare, but no one answered the door, even though police could hear "someone coughing inside one of the bedrooms," according to the police report.
Inside the home, the police say they found all three children sick and symptomatic.
After completing a search of the home, the police called for an ambulance. Two of the children were taken by ambulance to the hospital. A DCS worker took the third child to the hospital by car. The naturopath’s concerns were not unfounded. Doctors admitted Heder into the hospital to treat his symptoms.
When those inside the house continued to refuse to open the door, police said, "The decision was made to force entry of the home for DCS in order to take custody of the child."
#58. To: nolu chan (#49)
However, that is not the question I address in this case. It is not a case of what the parents should have done, but whether the N.D. failed in his professional responsibilities, or the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority.
I will not addres the aspects of concerning whether the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority. I can do so only after I have all available information concerning this situation.
#65. To: Gatlin (#58)
[58] I will not addres the aspects of concerning whether the DCS, the police, or the judge failed in their responsibilities or exceeded their authority. I can do so only after I have all available information concerning this situation.
[58] However, staying on my point, I will continue to address the responsibilities of the N.D. and say that according to law all he needed to comply with ARS 13-3620 and notify CPS was reasonable belief.
#67. To: nolu chan (#65)
(Edited)
For your convenience, I provided a copy of ARS 13-3620 so you can read it and ascertain that the N.D. did not have a reporting requirement.
Thank you for your courtesy to provide a copy oi ARS 13-3620 but I have already read it. I will however read it again. I do not find naturopath in the list of people with a reporting requiring requirement pursuant to Section A under its definition of "all persons" included within that subsection.
That is true. Naturopath is not on the list and naturopath can never be on the list because a naturopath or naturopathic practitioner isn’t a physician or doctor. Smart people understand the differences between a naturopath and a real, medical, naturopathic doctor. You obviously don’t know the difference for sometimes us call him a naturopath and other times you call him a N.D. I also find Subsection F which applies to everyone not on that list.
Subsection F does apply to everyone no on that list. And any person other than one required to report or cause reports to be made under subsection A. He is not medically competent to be burdened with that reporting requirement.
I have no idea as to the state of his competency. That is immaterial. He is burdened with the reporting requirement under Arizona law.
#68. To: nolu chan (#67)
Replies to Comment # 68.
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