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Bang / Guns
See other Bang / Guns Articles

Title: Trump Announces He’s a Few Weeks From Banning Bump Stocks
Source: From The Trenches/10th Amendment Center
URL Source: http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.c ... rom-banning-bump-stocks/235057
Published: Oct 19, 2018
Author: Joe Wolverton, II
Post Date: 2018-10-20 14:17:05 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 23834
Comments: 148

Tenth Amendment Center – by Joe Wolverton, II

President Donald Trump promises that he is “just a few weeks” from issuing regulations that would outlaw bump fire stocks.

“We’re knocking out bump stocks,” Trump said at a White House news conference on October 1. “We’re in the final two or three weeks, and I’ll be able to write out bump stocks.”  

This Republican president’s promise to “write out” bump fire stocks sounds suspiciously like his Democratic predecessor’s claim to possess the power to use his phone and pen to make law.

“I’ve got a pen and I’ve got a phone,” Barack Obama proclaimed in 2014. “And I can use that pen to sign executive orders and take executive actions and administrative actions,” he added.

This two-party, one policy situation is decades old. Regarding the presidential penchant for disarming the American people, I am reminded of a story I wrote in January 2014:

“In an executive ‘Fact Sheet’ issued January 3 by the White House, the president purports to establish new guidelines for “keep[ing] Guns out of Potentially Dangerous Hands.”

NOTE: Originally published at The New American Magazine and reposted here with permission from the author.

The next paragraph of that story can now be applied to both President Obama and President Trump:

“What President Obama — a former part-time law professor — seems not to understand is that every time he issues some executive order, presidential finding, or ‘fact sheet,’ he is exceeding the constitutional limits on his power and thereby violating his oath of office.”

All you need to do is change the last name of the president and change the words “fact sheet” to “memorandum” and the story is no different.

President Trump is exercising that same unconstitutional “authority” to infringe significantly on the rights protected by the Second Amendment, specifically, the right to “keep and bear arms.”

Trump’s attack on the Second Amendment in the form of banning bump fire stocks should come as no surprise.

In fact, back in February the president issued an official memorandum ordering the Department of Justice “to dedicate all available resources to complete the review of the comments received, and, as expeditiously as possible, to propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.” Lest there be any misunderstanding, the memo identifies the device in question as “bump fire stocks and similar devices.”

For those of you counting on the National Rifle Association (NRA) to come to the defense of the Second Amendment, you probably don’t want to read any further.

The NRA released the following statement regarding federal regulation of bump fire stocks:

The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations.

So, no help from the NRA for Americans who believed the group to be defenders of the Second Amendment.

Of course, such a statement isn’t surprising considering that the very same press release reveals that the NRA doesn’t understand the purpose of the Second Amendment.

“In an increasingly dangerous world, the NRA remains focused on our mission: strengthening Americans’ Second Amendment freedom to defend themselves, their families and their communities,” the statement reads.

Wrong.

Our Founding Fathers were not concerned about protecting a man’s right to keep his home and family safe from “danger.” Our Founding Fathers protected the individual’s right to keep and bear arms because they knew that such was the only way to avoid being enslaved by tyrants.

They knew from their study of history that a tyrant’s first move was always to disarm the people, and generally to claim it was for their safety, and to establish a standing army so as to convince the people that they didn’t need arms to protect themselves, for the tyrant and his professional soldiers would do it for them. Sound familiar?

Consider this gem from William Blackstone, a man of immense and undeniable influence on the Founders and their understanding of rights, civil and natural.

In Volume I of his Commentaries on the Laws of England, Blackstone declares “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.”

Would anyone in America — or the world, for that matter — argue that the “sanctions of society and laws” are sufficient to “restrain violence” or oppression?

Thus, the people must be armed.

Commenting on Blackstone’s Commentaries, eminent Founding Era jurist and constitutional scholar St. George Tucker put a finer point on the purpose of protecting the natural right of all people to keep and bear arms. He wrote:

This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty…. The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.

Enough said.

As for President Trump, he has done many things consistent with his solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. His issuing of a regulation to shrink the scope of the Second Amendment is not one of them, however.

It’s this easy: Article I, Section 1 of the Constitution grants federal lawmaking power exclusively to the Congress.

Regardless of the word he uses to describe it, any time the president orders the executive branch to create law by executive decree, he is usurping the authority of the legislature.

Finally, in his memo, President Trump writes that he was motivated to begin the process of banning bump fire stocks “after the deadly mass murder in Las Vegas, Nevada, on October 1, 2017.”

No matter how many people are clamoring for protection, no matter how many madmen go on murderous sprees, the president is not constitutionally authorized to take “executive actions” that encroach upon rights protected by the Constitution — in this case, the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Apart from his work as a journalist, Joe Wolverton, II is a professor of American Government at Chattanooga State and was a practicing attorney until 2009. He lives in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Since 2000, Joe has been a featured contributor to The New American magazine. Most recently, he has written a cover story article on the Tea Party movement, as well as a five-part series on the unconstitutionality of Obamacare.

Tenth Amendment Center

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#109. To: Deckard (#0)

The toad Announces He’s a Few Weeks From Banning Bump Stocks

The Toad is a degenerate, habitual liar, ass-clown, tax-cheat, and delusional narcissist.

Why would any rational individual believe anything this national embarrassment, says?

Perhaps it is only the willfully irrational, and willfully ignorant who continue to buy into this disgusting racist's propaganda....

The world is watching, and laughing at U.S.

Jameson  posted on  2018-10-24   21:24:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Jameson, Dicktard (#109)

It’s nice how you filthy snowflakes agree and rub elbows.

lol

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-10-24   21:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: sneakypete (#105)

The Supreme Court does not change the Constitution or law, it interprets it.

There ya go,and they interpret it according to their own prejudices.

You just blow it out your ass.

The Supreme Court is empowered by the Constitution to act as the highest authority of the federal judicial branch.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii

Article III Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

As a matter of law, nobody gives two shits what your interpretation of the Constitution is.

If you decided same sex marriage was unlawful, it would not stop legally authorized same sex marriage. If, prior to Obergefell, you decided that same sex marriage was constitutional, it would not have made same sex marriage lawful where a state prohibited it.

If you decided abortion was unconstitutional infanticide, abortion would still be lawful. If before Roe, you decided that abortion was a constitutional right, it would not have made abortion legal where the state prohibited it.

Where your idiotic interpretation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is directly contrary to U.S. Supreme Court precedent, your idiotic interpretation changes nothing. It is just bullshit on parade.

The U.S. RKBA was derived directly from the English common law RKBA.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals (1765)

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

As stated in 1802 and quoted in Lynch v. Clarke in 1844, "The constitution is unintelligible without reference, to the common law."

Heller, 524 U.S. 570, 627-28 (2008)

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); ...

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

You do not like what the law actually is. I do not care about what you do not like. You phony position is exposed when you choose not to exercise your bullshit right to own a modern machinegun as you know it would result in going to prison.

You cannot excercise a right that does not exist, and discretion being the better part of valor, you do not do what your bullshit asserts to be your constitutional right.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-24   22:53:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: sneakypete (#106)

Your love of being pimped out by judges just becomes more obvious with every post you make.

Your fear of a judge sentencing you to sharing a cell with Bubba precludes your practicing the bullshit you make believe blog about.

You know what the law is. You just don't like it and act out on the internet. Your acting out does not change the law. You are not going to obtain or assemble a nice shiny new M-16 and flaunt it.

What a pathetic joke.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-24   22:54:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Vicomte13, sneakypete (#108)

That's the Declaration of Independence you're thinking of. ... But the Preamble to the Constitution (1787) only says....

But neither the DOI nor the Preamble is a source of substantive law. The preamble was a product of the Committee on Style, and was not proposed or discussed on the floor of the convention before being added to the final draft of the Constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Drafting

The Preamble was placed in the Constitution during the last days of the Constitutional Convention by the Committee on Style, which wrote its final draft, with Gouverneur Morris leading the effort. It was not proposed or discussed on the floor of the convention beforehand. The initial wording of the preamble did not refer to the people of the United States, rather, it referred to people of the various states, which was the norm. In earlier documents, including the 1778 Treaty of Alliance with France, the Articles of Confederation, and the 1783 Treaty of Paris recognizing American independence, the word "people" was not used, and the phrase the United States was followed immediately by a listing of the states, from north to south. The change was made out of necessity, as the Constitution provided that whenever the popularly elected ratifying conventions of nine states gave their approval, it would go into effect for those nine, irrespective of whether any of the remaining states ratified.

Meaning and application

The Preamble serves solely as an introduction, and does not assign powers to the federal government, nor does it provide specific limitations on government action. Due to the Preamble's limited nature, no court has ever used it as a decisive factor in case adjudication, except as regards frivolous litigation.

Madison annotated his copy of the Report of Committee of Style with,

As Reported by Come. of revision, of Stile & arrangement. Sept. 12. consisting of Mr Johnson Mr Hamilton Mr. Morris, Mr. Madison & Mr King.

The Records of the Federal Convention of 1797, (Farrand's Records), Edited by Max Farrand, Professor of History in Yale University, Volume II, page 590.

It was an introductory paragraph added by the Committee of Style, and not proposed and discussed on the floor of the Constitutional Convention, as were the actual Articles of the Constitution.

The Preamble is not a source of substantive law

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/case.html

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

MR. JUSTICE HARLAN, after making the foregoing statement, delivered the opinion of the court.

We pass without extended discussion the suggestion that the particular section of the statute of Massachusetts now in question (§ 137, c. 75) is in derogation of rights secured by the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States. Although that Preamble indicates the general purposes for which the people ordained and established the Constitution, it has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments. Such powers embrace only those expressly granted in the body of the Constitution and such as may be implied from those so granted. Although, therefore, one of the declared objects of the Constitution was to secure the blessings of liberty to all under the sovereign jurisdiction and authority of the United States, no power can be exerted to that end by the United States unless, apart from the Preamble, it be found in some express delegation of power or in some power to be properly implied therefrom. 1 Story's Const. § 462.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-24   23:50:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: A K A Stone (#72)

G. F. Y. dickhead.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2018-10-25   6:04:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: nolu chan (#113)

But neither the DOI nor the Preamble is a source of substantive law.

Until the Supreme Court decides otherwise, which of course they could. The current court won't. Some future court might.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-10-25   7:51:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Vicomte13 (#75)

The constitution should mean what it says. A need to interpret it a certain way is silly and stupid. Words have meanings. I know you are a Catholic and by tradition you pretend the Bible isn't God's word and whatever the antichrist pope says us gospel yruth.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-10-25   8:44:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: A K A Stone (#116)

The Constitution says a well regulated militia. Therefore,arms are regulated. The only question is how much.

Words do indeed have meaning. Part of meaning is hierarchy of authority. When words conflict and lead to different ends, what prevails?

That’s what i focus on. The pretense that they don’t conflict is fantasy.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-10-25   9:16:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: nolu chan (#113)

And if they do revisit it, it will probably be a left wing court, and it will be to use the "general welfare" clause as a Constitutional basis for whatever they want to do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-10-25   9:26:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Vicomte13 (#117)

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia not regulated arms.

You need a dictionary.

The constitution as written includes a right to bear arms that Congress has no lawful power to limit.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-10-25   9:40:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Vicomte13 (#118)

That doesn't mean I think people should have nukes. The constitution isn't perfect.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-10-25   9:41:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: nolu chan (#100) (Edited)

The supreme court granted itself power not found in the constitution. Perhaps that is for the best but an honest reading of the constitution doesn't give the supreme court the power they now have.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-10-25   9:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Vicomte13 (#93)

myself think that the best read of the Second Amendment is that it applies to personal firearms - not the other stuff (WMD, crew-served weapons, Claymore mines, napalm, et al).

If you lie to yourself and pretend arms aren't arms. It days nothing about personal firearms. It says arms. Get out the dictionary.

No wonder you get the Bible wrong. You try to make unchangeable words fit what you think is rigjt.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-10-25   9:49:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Vicomte13 (#107)

A line has to be drawn for every single right.

Seems to me the line is already drawn. By DEFINITION,a handgun is an individual weapon,and a nuke is a weapon of mass destruction.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   11:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Vicomte13 (#108)

I stand corrected,but the documents ARE interrelated.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   11:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: nolu chan (#111)

You just cut and paste,and have never had an original thought in your entire life,have you,Shelton?

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   11:09:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: nolu chan (#112) (Edited)

You are not going to obtain or assemble a nice shiny new M-16 and flaunt it.

No,I am not,but only because I don't want one.

I could if I wanted,though.

Legally.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   11:10:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: A K A Stone (#122)

myself think that the best read of the Second Amendment is that it applies to personal firearms - not the other stuff (WMD, crew-served weapons, Claymore mines, napalm, et al).

If you lie to yourself and pretend arms aren't arms. It days nothing about personal firearms. It says arms. Get out the dictionary.

Yes,but the definition of "arms" FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DECLARATION were already settled during the discussion that lead to the adoption,namely "arms of a type carried by individual soldiers". Meaning handguns,rifles,and shotguns. Such things are cannons and grenades are NOT included because cannons are crew-served weapons,and grenades are not firearms.

I have no idea why so many of us get sidetracked over the discussion of machine guns. Almost nobody really wants one bad enough to spend the kind of money it takes to buy one,and for civilian use such as hunting,target shooting,or self-defense,they are useless.

Don't forget,there are a lot of people in this country who have no desire to own ANY firearm,never mind a machine gun. We let crap discussions like this divert us from the real fight of keeping ownership and possession of actual useful firearms legal.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   11:21:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#117)

The Constitution says a well regulated militia. Therefore,arms are regulated. The only question is how much.

Absolutely not. This is simply a misinterpretation of a now archaic usage of the term well regulated.

The meaning of "well regulated" militia did not refer to gun control regulations. Now archaic, the meaning two centuries ago, in context, meant a militia well trained to use arms. The colonists of the day were experts at arms from their everyday hunting of squirrels, turkeys, and raccoons, and the like.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm

The meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 2nd amendment

From: Brian T. Halonen

The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

David E. Young, The Founders' View of the Right to Bear Arms, Golden Oak Books, Ontonagon, Michigan, 2007, pp. 63-64:

VIRGINIA'S WELL REGULATED MILITIA OF THE PEOPLE

The wording of Article 13 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which contained language relative to the Second amendment was:

SEC. 13 - That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

This language was written and adopted by men who were actively engaged in armed defense against the forces of government which they viewed as violating their constitution, rights, and liberty. Note that this language used by George Mason and the Virginia Convention in the Virginia Declaration of Rights closely followed that which Mason had used previously in describing the voluntary militia association for defense in several documents relating to Fairfax County. This prior Mason usage extends back to over a year earlier, prior to any hostilities with the British. In September 1774, Mason described a voluntary militia association of gentlemen and freeholders as the Fairfax Independent Company of Volunteers. The purpose of the volunteers associating was defense of their just rights and privileges upon principles of the British Constitution. Later, in January 1775. Mason discussed a well regulated militia in a document of the Fairfax County Committee of Safety. He described a well regulated militia composed of gentlemen freeholders and other freemen as the natural strength and only stable security of a free government. Mason indicated that such a militia would make standing armies unnecessary since they were ever dangerous to liberty. Mason's Committee recommended that the inhabitants from 16 to 50 years old voluntarily form companies, choose officers, and arm and train themselves. Then in a Febmary 6, 1775 plan for embodying the people of Fairfax Country, Mason largely repeated the Committee language of January, adding the term "safe" to the description of a well regulated militia being the natural strength and only safe and stable security of a free government. He specified that a well regulated militia was intended to include all able-bodied freemen from 18 to 50 years old. Finally, in mid-April 1775, Mason provided his views on the purposes for the men voluntarily embodying themselves as a well regulated militia in Fairfax County. These purposes were to preserve the inestimable rights inherited from their ancestors and to defend against the threatened ruin of the constitution. A well regulated militia was intended to introduce the use of arms, discipline, and a martial spirit of emulation. The reason was that in case of absolute necessity, the people might be able to act in defense of their invaded liberty

David E. Young, The Founders' View of the Right to Bear Arms, Golden Oak Books, Ontonagon, Michigan, 2007, pp. 16-17.

PLAIN TRUTH

Ben Franklin, being a very well-informed person and a printer, was in an exceptionally favorable position to publicize his concerns about the defenseless situation of Pennsylvania. In an attempt to rouse his fellow Pennsylvanians to prepare for organized defense of the Colony, he wrote a pamphlet entitled Plain Truth that was publishcd on November 17. 1747. In Plain Truth. Franklin noted that all parts of Pennsylvania from the frontier areas to the Delaware shoreline were subject to attack at the whim of Britain's enemies. He noted the previous attacks along the Delaware and the probability that there were enemy spies within the Colony. It was Franklin's belief that a defensive remedy had to be prepared before the next sununer, or Philadelphia and Pennsylvania might be attacked, plundered, and destroyed. Franklin noted that if enemies ruined Philadelphia and the Colony of Pennsylvania, it would not be due to any lack of inhabitants able to bear arms in its defense. According to Franklin, there were at least 60,000 men in the Colony, not counting Quakers, who were familiar with firearms. The reasons which Franklin gave for all those men being familiar with their firearms, being able to defend themselves and the colony, and being hardy and bold was because they were all hunters and marksmen.

EXPERTISE IN THE USE OF ARMS

Considering that the able-bodied males in colonial Pennsylvania had never been required by law to possess their own arms for organized defensive purposes, as the men in the other colonies had under their militia laws, it might be assumed that there were few firearms possessed by the people of Pennsylvania. Any such assumption would be completely incorrect, however. Benjamin Franklin's Plain Truth clearly indicated that large numbers of Pennsylvanians not only possessed their own arms but were quite expert in their use. Apparently. the people of Pcnnsylvania were just as adept in the use of arms as those of Virginia described above. Militia laws were clearly not responsible for the people of Pennsylvania having and knowing how to use arms. It was the common possession and usage of arms for numerous everyday purposes such as hunting and target shooting that resulted in the population being familiar with arms and in a position to defend themselves and the Colony.

Recall Robert Beverly's 1705 book stating that Virginians spent all their lives shooting in the woods and as a result were very skillful in the use of arms. Beverly noted that with a little exercising the militia of Virginia, the free males 16 to 60, would be little inferior to regular troops. There is a very similar statement from Frothingham in Historv of the Siege of Boston. Frothingham stated that the habitual use of the fowling piece (bird hunting gun) made the farmers of Massachusetts superior to veteran troops in aiming the musket. Yet another example of this fact came from the Virginia/Pennsylania frontier. Joseph Doddridge described the normal situation on the frontier regarding a well-grown boy of twelve or thirteen. The lad was furnished a small rifle and shot pouch of his own. He then became a fort soldier and was assigned a porthole in the local defensive fort. However, it was not standing guard at a porthole during an alarm that made a young man knowledgeable in the use of his rifle. Instead, it was the everyday hunting of squirrels, turkeys, and raccoons that made him expert in the use of his gun.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   12:57:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Vicomte13 (#115)

But neither the DOI nor the Preamble is a source of substantive law.

Until the Supreme Court decides otherwise, which of course they could. The current court won't. Some future court might.

But until more than two centuries of legal interpretation is reversed, the DOI and the Preamble are uncitable as substantive law.

And as long as they are uncitable as substantive law, sneakypete can attribute any self-believed content to either one, and it cannot be cited as substantive law.

Whatever the DOI or Preamble may "clearly state," one must continue to look at the actual articles of the Constitution to find something substantive.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   13:04:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: sneakypete (#125)

You just cut and paste,and have never had an original thought in your entire life,have you,Shelton?

You just deflect and divert when Court opinions and legal authorities establish that your delusions are bullshit, don't you Chester?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   13:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: sneakypete (#126)

You are not going to obtain or assemble a nice shiny new M-16 and flaunt it.

No,I am not,but only because I don't want one.

I could if I wanted,though.

Legally.

Suuuuure, you could.

https://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57557

Decorated Silver Star Veteran, POW Sentenced to 7 Years for a Gun He Bought 40 Years Ago

You can't register a shiny new M-16, and you go to prison if caught with your unregistered shiny new M-16.

There is no civilian lawful ownership of a machine gun made after 1986.

Except for you, of course. The law does not apply to you.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   13:15:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: A K A Stone (#121)

The supreme court granted itself power not found in the constitution. Perhaps that is for the best but an honest reading of the constitution doesn't give the supreme court the power they now have.

You may hold whatever opinion, and may even be theoretically correct, and it does not change what the law currently is. SCOTUS is the constitutionally appointed ultimate arbiter of what the law is. Pursuant to SCOTUS ruling, "separate but equal" was constitutional (Plessy) until it wasn't (Brown).

Stating what the law is does not mean agreement with it. It is only stating what the prevailing law is established to be.

SCOTUS has the final say on interpretation. Congress can change a law, or the people can amend a provision of the Constitution, and thereby override a SCOTUS interpretation.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   13:25:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: nolu chan (#132)

I can't disagree with that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-10-25   16:10:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: nolu chan (#131)

You can't register a shiny new M-16, and you go to prison if caught with your unregistered shiny new M-16.

There is no civilian lawful ownership of a machine gun made after 1986.

Except for you, of course. The law does not apply to you.

So intelligent,but like your namesake on teebee,you don't have enough common sense to pour piss out of a boot.

If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   18:28:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: sneakypete (#134)

If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

Yep, a brand new, 32-year old (minimum) rifle.

Definitely never first.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   19:08:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: nolu chan (#135)

Yep, a brand new, 32-year old (minimum) rifle.

Definitely never first.

That just shows how little you know about firearms and the people who collect them.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-25   19:29:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: sneakypete (#136)

[nolu chan #131] You can't register a shiny new M-16, and you go to prison if caught with your unregistered shiny new M-16.

There is no civilian lawful ownership of a machine gun made after 1986.

Except for you, of course. The law does not apply to you.

- - - - - - - - - -

[sneakypete #134] So intelligent,but like your namesake on teebee,you don't have enough common sense to pour piss out of a boot.

If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

[sneakypete #136] That just shows how little you know about firearms and the people who collect them.

You bleat on endlessly about how the law is unconstitutional and you do not have to comply with it, you only have to ask your local sheriff.

Now you check the boxes to comply with every last jot and tiddle of the law, to include buying a 32+ year old gun, and you say that is buying a brand new shiny M-16. It just goes to show how full of shit you really are.

Good luck with getting aa actual, real, brand new, shiny M-16.

https://floridaarmory.com/How-to-purchase-class-III.html

How to Purchase Class III NFA Weapons in the State of Florida

Did you know that owning a suppressor (silencer), machinegun, short barreled rifle or shotgun is legal in the state of Florida? You just need to go through the proper channels. At Florida Armory Gun Shop, we handle all the details for you. Here are some basic requirements necessary to purchase & own a Class III / NFA weapon:

*You must have a clean record, with no felonies

*You must be at least 21 years of age

*You must reside in the state of Florida

*You must have a valid identification issued by the state of Florida

* In the state of Florida, you must have a Trust, Corporation or CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) Approval Signature. Ask us for more information about those options.

Class III / NFA weapons such as suppressors, machineguns, short barreled rifles or shotguns & destructive devices carry a $200 tax. AOWs carry a $5 tax. This tax is payable when we send out your Form 4 to the NFA. The NFA Branch will take anywhere from 3-5 months to process and return your application with the $200 or $5 tax stamp. Once that arrives at our store, your weapon is ready to go home with you. Just come in to the store, pass a background check and your set to go!

And, just for the heck of it,

https://www.quora.com/In-America-is-it-legal-for-a-civilian-to-own-an-M16

Tim Gordon

Answered Nov 16 2017 · Author has 2.4k answers and 2.8m answer views

In America, is it legal for a civilian to own an M16?

It’s doubtful, depending on several things.

The major one is what state you live in. Some of them do not permit firearms required to be registered and taxed under the National Firearms Act to be owned by members of the general public.

Assuming that you do live in a state that allows NFA firearms, the next consideration is the M16 itself. As in US Rifle, caliber 5.56mm, M16. Note that ‘M16’ is an official US government designation for a rifle that it purchases and issues to members of its armed forces on an as-needed basis. That means that an actual M16 is US government property. If you have an real M16, that begs the question, “where did you get it from?” I personally know of no instances where M16 rifles were sold as surplus. They didn’t even do that with M14 rifles! A number of M16 rifles have been provided to other nations as military aid, but they cannot be lawfully imported into the US, and that is assuming that the rifles in question do not still belong to the US government. Quite often, that is the case and those rifles are expected to be eventually returned. In most instances, if a civilian possesses a real M16, it is stolen property. That is, in and of itself, illegal.

The rifles described in the preceding paragraph are military models that Colt Industries internally identified using a three digit model number, starting with the Model 601, which identifies Colt produced copies of the original ArmaLite AR-15. Very few of these would have ever been sold into civilian ownership. Any receiver that is stamped as an ‘M16’ likely has an interesting story behind it…

Colt civilian AR-15 models were autoloaders and appeared with the release of the Model R6000, more commonly known as the AR-15 SP1 ‘Sporter’ in 1964. Of the 20,000 or so ostensible ‘M16’s on the National Firearms Act Registry, a large number - probably a vast majority, in fact - are actually lawful conversions of Colt civilian AR-15 (identified by a four digit number) model lower receivers that were registered before May 19, 1986 and are thus transferable. Factory select-fire rifles were available from several manufacturers between 1977 when Colt’s patent on the AR-15 expired and 1986, but ran two to three times the cost of a regular autoloader, not counting the NFA tax and headaches, and few sold. Select fire Colt AR-15’s were available, even if not listed in the catalog, but similarly costly and unless you were buying for a governmental entity, you probably had to be a very special friend of someone important at Colt or one of its distributors.

The law refers to these as ‘M16’ rifles, but they are still just select-fire AR-15’s if they were never property of the US Department of Defense.

- - - - - - - - - -

Jeff Carlisle-Tierno, Type 1 FFL dealer with a gunsmithing business

Answered Mar 29

Yes and no.

It is an M16 IF it was built to the specifications proscribed by the Department of Defense AND built under a contract to produce M16s. M16 is a military nomenclature, not one which belongs to Colt Firearms.

In order to be able to legally own a US-made full auto in the United States, it has to have been manufactured and NFA registered prior to the implementation of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. To the best of my knowledge, no M16 rifle has been released for sale on the civilian market, and I don’t really see the same DoD which prevented the M14s from being released into the NFA market allowing it.

That being said, you CAN own the exact same rifle, except it will say “AR-15” on the receiver, rather than M16. The AR-15 is a family of firearms, which includes both select fire and semi auto only variants.

So the typical NFA tax stamp holder cannot, but they can own a rifle which for all practical purposes is identical.

Now that’s not to say that an M16 can’t be in civilian hands in the US - many of those rifles were sold or given to law enforcement agencies. While a number of the terms of use indicated that they must returned to the DoD upon completion of use, that isn’t always the case. In those instances, police departments can transfer them to NFA dealers, who are civilians. They can rent them out for use on firing ranges, transfer them to other NFA dealers, or sell them to other agencies which are authorized the use of such weapons (e.g., law enforcement agencies). They cannot be sold to civilians purchasing on the NFA retail market.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-25   21:32:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: A K A Stone (#133)

Your site is dead, dickhead. Fred, the one post a day retard.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2018-10-26   1:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: nolu chan (#137)

Chill,Shelton. You don't know what you are talking about,you are just mindlessly quoting data.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-26   13:11:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: nolu chan (#137)

I personally know of no instances where M16 rifles were sold as surplus.

Me either,but that doesn't mean it never happened.

I DO know of instances where they were just GIVEN to local police departments,though.

Who knows what is going to happen to them once the local PD's declare them as surplus?

I would be willing to bet some will get sold to local cops,and knowing cops,some will end up just getting "lost".

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-29   12:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: sneakypete (#140)

[Jeff Carlisle-Tierno, Type 1 FFL dealer with a gunsmithing business] I personally know of no instances where M16 rifles were sold as surplus.

Me either,but that doesn't mean it never happened.

True dat. It just means that no one seems to know of an example of it happening.

I would be willing to bet some will get sold to local cops,and knowing cops,some will end up just getting "lost".

Such a weapon may get lost, but it will not find its way into your lawful possession.

There is the fact the that if you attempt to register the unlawful weapon, the serial number will have the BATF visiting you to confiscate the weapon and charge you with unlawful possession.

[Jeff Carlisle-Tierno, Type 1 FFL dealer with a gunsmithing business] Now that’s not to say that an M16 can’t be in civilian hands in the US - many of those rifles were sold or given to law enforcement agencies. While a number of the terms of use indicated that they must returned to the DoD upon completion of use, that isn’t always the case. In those instances, police departments can transfer them to NFA dealers, who are civilians. They can rent them out for use on firing ranges, transfer them to other NFA dealers, or sell them to other agencies which are authorized the use of such weapons (e.g., law enforcement agencies). They cannot be sold to civilians purchasing on the NFA retail market.

An FFL dealer cannot lawfully sell a real brand new M-16 to you, nor can you lawfully buy one. If you manage to acquire one unlawfully, you cannot register it. You can hope nobody finds out about it, or you may join Alfred Pick.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-29   14:29:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: nolu chan (#141)

An FFL dealer cannot lawfully sell a real brand new M-16 to you, nor can you lawfully buy one. If you manage to acquire one unlawfully, you cannot register it. You can hope nobody finds out about it, or you may join Alfred Pick.

BTW,you have a tendency to get too tied up in too many technicalities. Things like the term "M-16",for example.

When I was first assigned to the Special Warfare Center at Bragg in 1964,I was issued an Armalite AR-15. Those were the letters stramped right on the receiver. Me,you,anyone else with the money at the time could go to any gun shop in the country and buy a AR-15 right across the counter. No waiting time,no permits,nothing but cash required.

The difference was the AR-15 issued to me by the Army had a selective fire switch and full-auto was one of the selections. The AR-15 you could buy for cash in a gun shop did not have a selective fire switch. It was strictly semi-auto.

Yet both WERE Armalite AR-15's. IIRC,they had the triangular handguards,and no forward bolt assist. They also had a slower twist rate in the barrel,which caused the rounds to "tumble" and "keyhole".

BUT......,once again,they were BOTH Armalite AR-15's.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-30   22:46:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: sneakypete (#142)

The AR-15 you could buy for cash in a gun shop did not have a selective fire switch. It was strictly semi-auto.

The one you could buy for cash in a gun shop did not, and legally could not, meet MILSPEC for an M-16.

As part of the M-16 MILSPEC, the fire control selector has three positions, safe, semi-automatic, and burst. What does not conform is not an M-16.

3.3.2.3 Fire control selector. The fire control shall have three positions; safe, semi-automatic and burst and shall rotate manually without binding from one position to another when the hammer is cocked.

- - - - - - - - - -

[sneakypete #134] So intelligent,but like your namesake on teebee,you don't have enough common sense to pour piss out of a boot. If you have the money,somebody will have a brand-new,never first,bright and shiny M-16 that is registered,but never sold.

The 2nd Amendment still gives you the right to own such weapons as are lawful to possess. The government continues to establish what weapons are lawful, or unlawful, to possess. The M-16, as well all other weapons unlawful to possess (such as a full-auto AR-15), continue to be outside the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. What the Government issues to you as a soldier on active duty has nothing to do with your 2nd Amendment civilian right to keep and bear arms.

Your unfounded claim that you have a constitutional right to own an M-16 remains unfounded. You can't lawfully buy one, you can't register one, and if caught in illegal possession of one, you can go to prison. As a technicality, you can have a cellmate named Bubba.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-10-31   12:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: nolu chan (#143) (Edited)

The AR-15 you could buy for cash in a gun shop did not have a selective fire switch. It was strictly semi-auto.

The one you could buy for cash in a gun shop did not, and legally could not, meet MILSPEC for an M-16.

Once again,getting tangled up in bullshit and overlooking actual FACTS.

THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS A M-16 AT THAT TIME,and the AR-15's issued to SF units DID have a selector switch with a full auto position. Some of the AR-15's in gun shops DID have the selector switch and were legal to own if you had the permit,and some did not have it. Yet,they were both AR-15's.

The regular Army,USMC,and US Navy were still being issued M-14's.

And I am UNSURE when selective fire weapons with M-16 engraved on them became illegal for civilian to own or possess. I DO know that prior to Clinton it was both possible and legal to own a BAR,Thompson sub-machine gun,M3 greasegun,etc,etc,etc,and every single damn one of them were ex-military weapons that had been declared as surplus to the needs of the service,and put up for sale as surplus weapons.

Since the M-16 existed LONG before Bubba was King in DC,and it has gone through many,many modifications,including modification to 3 round burst and then back to full auto or semi-auto again,chances are there are some genuine surplus M-16's floating around out there somewhere that are LEGALLY in civilian hands.

As for the legality of a licensed owner selling one to another licensed owner today goes,chances are it is illegal and will remain illegal DESPITE it being un-Constutiontal for for the government to tell anyone they can't sell private property they legally bought because the shitheads that sit on the Supreme Court will never allow the case to be put before them.

I guess,if I really wanted,I could ask a couple of Class-3 dealers about this,but the truth is I don't really care on a personal basis about M-16's and have already wasted too much time on it.

I DO care about RIGHTS,but once again,this is a mute issue unless the SC agrees to hear a case,and they won't.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-10-31   14:00:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: sneakypete (#144)

Interesting discussion. Where are all the missing posts? I assume Stone is deleting them?

We used to be a land where we gave up our lives to protect our freedom. Now we give up our freedom to protect our lives.

We The People  posted on  2018-12-18   9:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: We The People (#145)

Where are all the missing posts? I assume Stone is deleting them?

There are zero missing posts as I just scanned the article.

Maybe you have to click on full thread.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-12-18   9:28:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: A K A Stone (#146)

Good call. I thought I had.

We used to be a land where we gave up our lives to protect our freedom. Now we give up our freedom to protect our lives.

We The People  posted on  2018-12-18   9:30:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: We The People, Stone (#145)

Interesting discussion. Where are all the missing posts? I assume Stone is deleting them?

I have no idea.

Stone?

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-12-18   18:08:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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