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Title: Are the Interventionists Now Leaderless?
Source: Pat Bucanan.org
URL Source: http://buchanan.org/blog/are-the-in ... tionists-now-leaderless-129973
Published: Sep 1, 2018
Author: Patrick J. Buchanan
Post Date: 2018-09-01 07:27:55 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 3850
Comments: 40

“McCain’s Death Leaves Void” ran The Wall Street Journal headline over a front-page story that began:

“The death of John McCain will leave Congress without perhaps its loudest voice in support of the robust internationalism that has defined the country’s security relations since World War II.”

Certainly, the passing of the senator whose life story will dominate the news until he is buried at his alma mater, the Naval Academy, on Sunday, leaves America’s interventionists without their greatest champion.

No one around has the prestige or media following of McCain.

And the cause he championed, compulsive intervention in foreign quarrels to face down dictators and bring democrats to power, appears to be a cause whose time has passed.

When 9/11 occurred, America was united in crushing the al-Qaida terrorists who perpetrated the atrocities. John McCain then backed President Bush’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003, which had no role in the attacks.

During Barack Obama’s presidency, he slipped into northern Syria to cheer rebels who had arisen to overthrow President Bashar Assad, an insurgency that led to a seven-year civil war and one of the great humanitarian disasters of our time. McCain supported the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe and the Baltic, right up to Russia’s border. When Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2008, and was expelled by the Russian army, McCain roared, “We are all Georgians now!” He urged intervention. But Bush, his approval rating scraping bottom, had had enough of the neocon crusades for democracy.

McCain’s contempt for Vladimir Putin was unconstrained. When crowds gathered in Maidan Square in Kiev to overthrow an elected pro-Russian president, McCain was there, cheering them on.

He supported sending arms to the Ukrainian army to fight pro-Russian rebels in the Donbass. He backed U.S. support for Saudi intervention in Yemen. And this war, too, proved to be a humanitarian disaster.

John McCain was a war hawk, and proud of it. But by 2006, the wars he had championed had cost the Republican Party both houses of Congress.


McCain was instrumental in bringing Trump to the forefront of American politics.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 35.

#9. To: buckeroo (#0)

I largely agreed with McCain on foreign policy and war.

Where we parted ways is over post-Cold War Russia and Vladimir Putin.

McCain could never see that Russia was not the USSR, and that Putin was not a Stalin-like figure. His hatred was too deeply entrenched. That caused a serious divide between me and him on a central aspect of foreign policy.

As far as playing the Islamists off against each other, and bombing the hell out of Islamist shitholes, he and I were on the same page. After 9/11 I thought we should have invaded, conquered and forcibly converted (to secularism) all of the terror-supporting states of the Middle East: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran - whatever it took.

McCain had a tin ear on Russia. I agreed with him elsewhere.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-01   14:05:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

As far as playing the Islamists off against each other, and bombing the hell out of Islamist shitholes, he and I were on the same page.

Yet, the good ol' USA helped to create the current strife in and about the Islamist terrorists that still exist in the ME.

Ever hear of "Freedom Fighters" by Ronald Reagan? Ever look into the legacy of this bullshit?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-09-01   14:19:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: buckeroo (#10)

Ever hear of "Freedom Fighters" by Ronald Reagan? Ever look into the legacy of this bullshit?

It defeated the USSR, bringing it to a speedy end, so ultimately the price was worth paying. You have to break some eggs to make an omelette.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-01   14:40:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Vicomte13 (#11) (Edited)

we should have invaded, conquered and forcibly converted (to secularism) all of the terror-supporting states of the Middle East: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran ... ultimately the price was worth paying

Shame on you!

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-01   16:19:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A Pole (#13)

Shame on you!

I believe that the best way to defeat Islam is through a Crusade.

But my view is the minority view, so it did not, and will not, come to pass.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-01   19:46:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13 (#15) (Edited)

But my view is the minority view

It is not relevant. Shame on you!

forcibly converted (to secularism) ... states of the Middle East: Iraq, ... Syria ...

Since when Iraq and Syria were invaded by Islamists?

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-02   3:40:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: A Pole (#16)

You bore me with your "shame on you".

Syria and Iraq have, and had, respectively, governments that funded and protected certain international terrorist organizations. Those terrorists were primarily focused on Israel - their Islamism was of an Arabist anti-Israel focus, primarily, as opposed to the "America is Satan" Al Qaeda jihadi style, but it makes no difference to me. People who think that, say, Israel belongs to them because their religion claims certain territory as inviolable are problematic. And when they outright attack my people and the people of my allies, they are enemies.

On 9/11 one set of Islamist terrorists struck at the very heart of the United States. This enragd the American people, rightly so, and gave us the opportunity to have the political unity, in that moment, to launch a Crusade against Islamic countries in general, to breakl ALL of the governments that will not make peace with us OR with our ally, Israel. To sweep the table by either destroying outright every government that supports terrorism against us ("us" meaning the US, the West, Israel and also, in my mind, Russia - because of course the Chechens and the nutjobs who blow up theaters and attack schools are Islamic, and consider themselves the "other", deserving of getting out of Russia BECAUSE they are "different", because of their Islam. And they're willing to kill Russian kids and civilians to advance that cause.

The cause of Islamic particularism is itself illegitimate. It expresses itself EVERYWHERE in the same way: violence and contempt for all other human life. But Muslim societies are pretty stupid, intellectually, backwards. They are only able to advance their killing agendas because of oil money, which is all controlled by governments over there. it's the governments that protect and fund the radical movements composed of Muslims everywhere in the world.

So, to stop the Islamic violence, you have to either destroy those governments outright and replace them with governments you control, who will control those flows of money under your supervision, OR you have to intimidate the governments that have done it in the past sufficiently that they stop.

The lesson of dealing with Islamic governments is that they are true believers who think God is on their side. They won't BE intimidated. Even Syria's government, beset by civil war and facing American forces, still stubbornly refuses to make a permanent peace with Israel to take off Western pressure.

Given the utter intransigence of Muslims, you have to conquer them and strip away their ability to route oil money into terrorism far and wide. That's what we SHOULD have done after 9.11. It would have been very easy, with the American public in an agitated and angry state, to declare war on a laundry list of Islamist movements (which we get to define) and on every country that supports them. You don't have to name the countries. If a country supports an organization on that list, you are authorized to attack it.

Congress would have given that war authorization, and the US President would have had carte blanche to take out any government that supported Islamists at will. There would have been a more generatl mobilization, and the dominos in the Middle East would have toppled quickly, no lingering war. That's what SHOULD have happened.

It didn't, because the US national leaders don't see Islam as the threat it is. That same brain trust also did not see China as the threat that it was rising to be. But they focused on Russia as THE threat, even though the USSR was long gone.

Our leaders are stupid, so we lost our chance to crush Islam, lost our chance to nip China's rise to fascism in the bud, and created the trauma we have with Russia.

Done right, the whole MIddle East would be American-dominated neo-colonies right now, Russia and the US would be at peace, and there would be no fake Chinese islands.

You never let a crisis go to waste. 9/11 gave us one bright shining moment in which the American people would have authorized a declared general war with full mobilization, for us to conquer and neo-colonize the Middle East, thereby crushing out the Islamists while taking control of the world's oil supply and, thereby, the Chinese, Indian and other Asian economies.

We had the strength. All that was required was the will. And with 9/11, the PEOPLE had the will to war. But the leaders were feckless assholes with no vision. So instead we went to war in limited fits and starts, did not send enough forces, lost our opportunity to mobilize a united country for a true war of conquest, and ended up spending two trillion dollars and ten thousand lives to go an make an Iranian ally out of Iraq, and break a bunch of countries leaving chaos in our wake.

Our grand strategy was visionless, our campaigns were poorly thought out, and we ended up doing to ourselves what the Soviets did to themselves in Afghanistan. Dumb.

I am ashamed at how badly we mishandled the war. I would have been proud to have conquered.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-02   7:11:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

I am ashamed at how badly we mishandled the war. I would have been proud to have conquered.

What is a difference between you and for example Hitler?

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-02   7:41:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: A Pole (#18)

What is a difference between you and for example Hitler?

Their thoughts on financial enslavement seem to be the same.

CZ82  posted on  2018-09-04   7:06:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: CZ82 (#25)

Social Security is not financial enslavement.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-04   22:57:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13 (#27)

Social Security is not financial enslavement.

Why are you forgetting about all of the other silly social programs you support that costs trillions, making the responsible financial slaves to the irresponsible? Why do we have to keep the dregs of society alive (to vote obviously) instead of letting more babies be born that could turn out to be much better citizens (with the correct education system of course)?

Is that big long list a bit embarrassing??

CZ82  posted on  2018-09-05   7:10:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: CZ82 (#28)

Is what embarrassing?

Social Security? No. Public Schools? No. State Universities? No. Public roads, rails, runways and seaports? No. Public sewers? I e the e No. Medicare and Medicaid? No. Unemployment and disability benefits? No. Food stamps? No. School and school lunches? No.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-05   21:23:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Vicomte13 (#30)

Social Security? No. Public Schools? No. State Universities? No. Public roads, rails, runways and seaports? No. Public sewers? I e the e No. Medicare and Medicaid? No. Unemployment and disability benefits? No. Food stamps? No. School and school lunches? No.

Why you going down a rabbit hole again??

BTW I'm curious as to why you think newborn babies are going to grow up to be criminals?

CZ82  posted on  2018-09-07   7:06:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: CZ82 (#31)

I'm not. You asked if I found social programs embarrassing. I listed the ones I care about. That's not a rabbit hole at all. That is what I defend when I say the social welfare state. You may be thinking of something else.

Why do I think babies will grow up to be criminals? Statistics. 50% of ghetto black men go to prison for crimes. A large number of aborted babies are black, conceived by unwed mothers in the ghetto. Outlaw Roe, and there will be about a million more poor ghetto babies each year, and half of them will grow up to be criminal predators.

We know from the crime statistics that crime in America began to drop sharply in the mid-to- late 80s, starting about 16 years after Roe v Wade. Crime declined continuously as cohort after cohort of the criminal unborn were nipped in the bud.

Now, politicians like Rudolph Giuliani claimed that this drop off in crime was due to his tough policing. While there may be some truth to that, it should be noted that the crime rate in Detroit plunged also during the same time period, and this was not due to police reform - nothing changed there, except for abortion legalization.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-08   1:15:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

Why do I think babies will grow up to be criminals? Statistics. 50% of ghetto black men go to prison for crimes. A large number of aborted babies are black, conceived by unwed mothers in the ghetto. Outlaw Roe, and there will be about a million more poor ghetto babies each year, and half of them will grow up to be criminal predators.

We know from the crime statistics that crime in America began to drop sharply in the mid-to- late 80s, starting about 16 years after Roe v Wade. Crime declined continuously as cohort after cohort of the criminal unborn were nipped in the bud.

Now, politicians like Rudolph Giuliani claimed that this drop off in crime was due to his tough policing. While there may be some truth to that, it should be noted that the crime rate in Detroit plunged also during the same time period, and this was not due to police reform - nothing changed there, except for abortion legalization.

Your way means we pay to keep those people alive that would parent those babies that according to you would need to be killed/aborted to keep the crime rate down. Then we have to turn right around and pay for the abortions and whatever other silliness that goes along with it.

My way means we make those potential parents either become useful/responsible members of society or they would basically kill themselves off cause the handouts keeping them alive would be cut off.

My way is 3 times cheaper than your way and my way isn't as mean because they would have done it to themselves thru their own inactions/actions, not being torn apart with tongs and pliers cause you/them have no sense.

CZ82  posted on  2018-09-09   8:39:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: CZ82 (#33)

No. First, abortion is not “My Way”. I OPPOSE abortion. I am merely objective about what abortion does: keep down the crime rate and the poverty rate. MY WAY is to outlaw abortion and expand poverty relief programs to take care all of the additional babies, and to improve the schools and re- education system in prisons to keep down the crime rate, also to legalize drugs so as to largely eliminate organized crime’s economic support base.

Because I am a realist, I don’t pretend we can just abolish abortion and not have an utter disaster unless we substantially improve our social welfare network.

MY WAY is not cruel to anybody - it’s just expensive.

The way I would pay for things is not to raise taxes, but to eliminate the various tax exemptions for the ways that rich people hold and accumulate wealth, subjecting them to the SAME taxes that you and I already pay. We pay property taxes on our houses, and payrolll and income taxes on their wages. Those are our primary ways of holding and accumulating wealth. But they primarily hold wealth in the form of securities, and pay no property taxes on them, nor sales taxes to purchase and sell them, nor taxes on the increase in value of their wealth. In this way their wealth multiplies without taxation, giving them a huge unfair advantage over you and me. I would simply strip away the exemptions that allow THOSE forms of wealth and increase to escape taxation, and tax THOSE things at the same rate we tax all OTHER sales, and real tangible property, and gains. There is nothing more fair than MY WAY of taxation. The rich would HATE IT precisely BECAUSE it is so completely fair, and they would have to pay the SAME percentages that you and I pay. They have an inherent advantage right now because they don’t.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-09   17:27:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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