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Title: Are the Interventionists Now Leaderless?
Source: Pat Bucanan.org
URL Source: http://buchanan.org/blog/are-the-in ... tionists-now-leaderless-129973
Published: Sep 1, 2018
Author: Patrick J. Buchanan
Post Date: 2018-09-01 07:27:55 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 3870
Comments: 40

“McCain’s Death Leaves Void” ran The Wall Street Journal headline over a front-page story that began:

“The death of John McCain will leave Congress without perhaps its loudest voice in support of the robust internationalism that has defined the country’s security relations since World War II.”

Certainly, the passing of the senator whose life story will dominate the news until he is buried at his alma mater, the Naval Academy, on Sunday, leaves America’s interventionists without their greatest champion.

No one around has the prestige or media following of McCain.

And the cause he championed, compulsive intervention in foreign quarrels to face down dictators and bring democrats to power, appears to be a cause whose time has passed.

When 9/11 occurred, America was united in crushing the al-Qaida terrorists who perpetrated the atrocities. John McCain then backed President Bush’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003, which had no role in the attacks.

During Barack Obama’s presidency, he slipped into northern Syria to cheer rebels who had arisen to overthrow President Bashar Assad, an insurgency that led to a seven-year civil war and one of the great humanitarian disasters of our time. McCain supported the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe and the Baltic, right up to Russia’s border. When Georgia invaded South Ossetia in 2008, and was expelled by the Russian army, McCain roared, “We are all Georgians now!” He urged intervention. But Bush, his approval rating scraping bottom, had had enough of the neocon crusades for democracy.

McCain’s contempt for Vladimir Putin was unconstrained. When crowds gathered in Maidan Square in Kiev to overthrow an elected pro-Russian president, McCain was there, cheering them on.

He supported sending arms to the Ukrainian army to fight pro-Russian rebels in the Donbass. He backed U.S. support for Saudi intervention in Yemen. And this war, too, proved to be a humanitarian disaster.

John McCain was a war hawk, and proud of it. But by 2006, the wars he had championed had cost the Republican Party both houses of Congress.


McCain was instrumental in bringing Trump to the forefront of American politics.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 22.

#9. To: buckeroo (#0)

I largely agreed with McCain on foreign policy and war.

Where we parted ways is over post-Cold War Russia and Vladimir Putin.

McCain could never see that Russia was not the USSR, and that Putin was not a Stalin-like figure. His hatred was too deeply entrenched. That caused a serious divide between me and him on a central aspect of foreign policy.

As far as playing the Islamists off against each other, and bombing the hell out of Islamist shitholes, he and I were on the same page. After 9/11 I thought we should have invaded, conquered and forcibly converted (to secularism) all of the terror-supporting states of the Middle East: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran - whatever it took.

McCain had a tin ear on Russia. I agreed with him elsewhere.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-01   14:05:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

As far as playing the Islamists off against each other, and bombing the hell out of Islamist shitholes, he and I were on the same page.

Yet, the good ol' USA helped to create the current strife in and about the Islamist terrorists that still exist in the ME.

Ever hear of "Freedom Fighters" by Ronald Reagan? Ever look into the legacy of this bullshit?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-09-01   14:19:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: buckeroo (#10)

Ever hear of "Freedom Fighters" by Ronald Reagan? Ever look into the legacy of this bullshit?

It defeated the USSR, bringing it to a speedy end, so ultimately the price was worth paying. You have to break some eggs to make an omelette.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-01   14:40:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Vicomte13 (#11) (Edited)

we should have invaded, conquered and forcibly converted (to secularism) all of the terror-supporting states of the Middle East: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran ... ultimately the price was worth paying

Shame on you!

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-01   16:19:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A Pole (#13)

Shame on you!

I believe that the best way to defeat Islam is through a Crusade.

But my view is the minority view, so it did not, and will not, come to pass.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-01   19:46:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Vicomte13 (#15) (Edited)

But my view is the minority view

It is not relevant. Shame on you!

forcibly converted (to secularism) ... states of the Middle East: Iraq, ... Syria ...

Since when Iraq and Syria were invaded by Islamists?

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-02   3:40:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: A Pole (#16)

You bore me with your "shame on you".

Syria and Iraq have, and had, respectively, governments that funded and protected certain international terrorist organizations. Those terrorists were primarily focused on Israel - their Islamism was of an Arabist anti-Israel focus, primarily, as opposed to the "America is Satan" Al Qaeda jihadi style, but it makes no difference to me. People who think that, say, Israel belongs to them because their religion claims certain territory as inviolable are problematic. And when they outright attack my people and the people of my allies, they are enemies.

On 9/11 one set of Islamist terrorists struck at the very heart of the United States. This enragd the American people, rightly so, and gave us the opportunity to have the political unity, in that moment, to launch a Crusade against Islamic countries in general, to breakl ALL of the governments that will not make peace with us OR with our ally, Israel. To sweep the table by either destroying outright every government that supports terrorism against us ("us" meaning the US, the West, Israel and also, in my mind, Russia - because of course the Chechens and the nutjobs who blow up theaters and attack schools are Islamic, and consider themselves the "other", deserving of getting out of Russia BECAUSE they are "different", because of their Islam. And they're willing to kill Russian kids and civilians to advance that cause.

The cause of Islamic particularism is itself illegitimate. It expresses itself EVERYWHERE in the same way: violence and contempt for all other human life. But Muslim societies are pretty stupid, intellectually, backwards. They are only able to advance their killing agendas because of oil money, which is all controlled by governments over there. it's the governments that protect and fund the radical movements composed of Muslims everywhere in the world.

So, to stop the Islamic violence, you have to either destroy those governments outright and replace them with governments you control, who will control those flows of money under your supervision, OR you have to intimidate the governments that have done it in the past sufficiently that they stop.

The lesson of dealing with Islamic governments is that they are true believers who think God is on their side. They won't BE intimidated. Even Syria's government, beset by civil war and facing American forces, still stubbornly refuses to make a permanent peace with Israel to take off Western pressure.

Given the utter intransigence of Muslims, you have to conquer them and strip away their ability to route oil money into terrorism far and wide. That's what we SHOULD have done after 9.11. It would have been very easy, with the American public in an agitated and angry state, to declare war on a laundry list of Islamist movements (which we get to define) and on every country that supports them. You don't have to name the countries. If a country supports an organization on that list, you are authorized to attack it.

Congress would have given that war authorization, and the US President would have had carte blanche to take out any government that supported Islamists at will. There would have been a more generatl mobilization, and the dominos in the Middle East would have toppled quickly, no lingering war. That's what SHOULD have happened.

It didn't, because the US national leaders don't see Islam as the threat it is. That same brain trust also did not see China as the threat that it was rising to be. But they focused on Russia as THE threat, even though the USSR was long gone.

Our leaders are stupid, so we lost our chance to crush Islam, lost our chance to nip China's rise to fascism in the bud, and created the trauma we have with Russia.

Done right, the whole MIddle East would be American-dominated neo-colonies right now, Russia and the US would be at peace, and there would be no fake Chinese islands.

You never let a crisis go to waste. 9/11 gave us one bright shining moment in which the American people would have authorized a declared general war with full mobilization, for us to conquer and neo-colonize the Middle East, thereby crushing out the Islamists while taking control of the world's oil supply and, thereby, the Chinese, Indian and other Asian economies.

We had the strength. All that was required was the will. And with 9/11, the PEOPLE had the will to war. But the leaders were feckless assholes with no vision. So instead we went to war in limited fits and starts, did not send enough forces, lost our opportunity to mobilize a united country for a true war of conquest, and ended up spending two trillion dollars and ten thousand lives to go an make an Iranian ally out of Iraq, and break a bunch of countries leaving chaos in our wake.

Our grand strategy was visionless, our campaigns were poorly thought out, and we ended up doing to ourselves what the Soviets did to themselves in Afghanistan. Dumb.

I am ashamed at how badly we mishandled the war. I would have been proud to have conquered.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-02   7:11:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Vicomte13 (#17)

I am ashamed at how badly we mishandled the war. I would have been proud to have conquered.

What is a difference between you and for example Hitler?

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-02   7:41:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A Pole (#18) (Edited)

What is a difference between you and for example Hitler?

Several differences.

First, he chose his enemies because of religious bigotry. Hatred of Jews, taught for 1600 years by the Christian churches, coupled with envy of their perceived wealth and the sorely bruised egos of the defeated German people, who lied to themselves and told themselves they were too great to really be defeated, so they must've been betrayed from within. Yeah, that's the ticket! The Jews provided a ready-made scapegoat, served up by the Church, by their particularism, and by the rigid nature of the German character. The Jews were not actually guilty of ANY of the charges that Hitler laid against them. They were not ACTUALLY the enemies of Germany, they were not REALLY in control of German finance, they never REALLY betrayed the German state - Germany lost World War I because the Germans were militarily inferior to the allies and were, in fact, defeated on the battlefield. They were too arrogant to admit it, because the war had been fought on foreign soil, but that was objectively the truth. They BLAMED the Jews as the source of Germany's weakness, but Germany's ERAL weakness was real weakness: the Germans were not as strong militarily as they deceived themselves to be, and they were not the supermen their cartoonish propaganda said they were. The Jews were the victim of a national delusion, which Hitler was able to harness up.

The Muslims have objectively been at war with Christianity for 1400 years. They attacked the World Trade Center. They strop bombs on themselves and blow up busses. They seize schools, in Beslan for instance, and kill children in service to their religion and their beliefs. Radical Islam is, in fact, a real, open, violent declared enemy that has killed thousands of our own people in recent years.

So, the first huge difference is that Hitler made up an enemy, the Jews, and attacked them. Islam is a real enemy that has attacked us and our civilization for one thousand four hundred years, pretty relentlessly. The last time the Jews attacked the Christians was in the Third Century, and they never attacked the Christians in Europe or in Germany at all.

That's the biggest difference.

9/11 was a Muslim Pearl Harbor on America, followed by comparable events in the London and Madrid subways, followed later by slaughter in a theater in Paris, and Moscow, and Beslan. The Jews never attacked Germany.

So, we have the RIGHT to view Islam as the enemy, because it IS. The Germans had no right to consider the Jews as an enemy or as a threat - they were neither. Hitler used Christian cultural hatred for Jews, taught by the Church for a millennium and more, as the basis to mobilize a political party. The Germans hated the jews and chose Hitler because they were delusional bigots. I hate Islamicism because it has tried to kill me more than once, and has succeeded in killing my friends.

Hitler declared war on the Jews and attacked them - they had done nothing. Islam declared war on me and mine fourteen hundred years ago, and has never stopped.

Are you really so dense that you cannot distinguish the difference?

A second difference is motive. Hitler wanted to conquer Slavs to enslave them and kill them and take their land. I want to conquer the Islamic states to give them governments that will stop attacking ,me. Two entirely different things.

Are you really this dense?

Other differences: he was Austrian. I am American. He hd a mustache. I don't. He was a vegetarian. I'm an omnivore. He was a teetotaler; I drink. He had one ball, I have two. He was intolerant of everybody and everything and filled with hatred. I tolerate almost everything. He was eager to take up the sword and conquer. I am defensive - the only reason I recognize that we need to conquer Dar es Islaam and remake it is because they keep attacking me.

I am not at all like Hitler. DeGaulle or Churchill or FDR? Sure.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-02   9:14:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#19) (Edited)

"What is a difference between you and for example Hitler?"

Several differences.

First, he chose his enemies because of religious bigotry. Hatred of Jews, taught for 1600 years

Religious bigotry. Hatred of Muslims, taught for 1400 years, hmm.

He was Austrian. I am American.

He was also thinking that his people (Austrian/German) were exceptional. I see no difference.

"For Raskolnikov, all men are divided into two categories: ordinary and extraordinary. The ordinary man has to live in submission and has no right to transgress the law because he is ordinary. On the contrary, the extraordinary men have the right to commit any crime and to transgress the law in any way."

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-02   10:07:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: A Pole (#20)

Hatred of Muslims, taught for 1400 years, hmm.

So, you don't know Mediterranean history. Ok. Go learn it. We're done.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-03   17:03:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#21)

We're done.

Shame on you

A Pole  posted on  2018-09-03   17:08:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 22.

#23. To: A Pole (#22) (Edited)

Shame on you

No, shame on you. If you choose to lie to yourself about Islam, there is nothing I can do about it, but I don't have to waste my time trying to teach you history. You bleed out the eyeballs for every little imagined slight affecting your tribe, but you choose to call the reasonable apprehension of Islam that people, and civilizations, that have spent their lives, and centuries, fighting, as racism.

It's not even stupid. Nobody is that stupid. You're not that stupid. It's you willfully lying. I have no patience for it, so I'm just going to leave you to lie to yourself.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-09-03 17:12:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 22.

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