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Primative Weapons
See other Primative Weapons Articles

Title: US Navy cost increases are worse than the US healthcare system
Source: Nextbigfuture
URL Source: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/ ... -the-us-healthcare-system.html
Published: Jul 13, 2018
Author: brian wang
Post Date: 2018-07-13 17:01:56 by Hondo68
Keywords: Navy procurement badly, broken for decades, massive technical flaws
Views: 2348
Comments: 22

In 2006, the RAND corporation found that from 1965-2005 the US Navy had 7-11% annual inflation for its ships which is worse than the inflation for US college tuition and US healthcare. This was before the Zumwalt destroyers (aka DDX) came in at $7.5 billion each compared to the previous destroyer at $1-2 billion each. Only 3 Zumwalts will be built and they have loads of technical and operational problems. Those were the high function and high cost end of the high-low mix of ships planned in 2006.

High costs and massive technical flaws and under-performance

The low-end was the LCS (Littoral Combat Ship). The LCS will be a $20+ billion failure. The inexpensive ships are coming at over $600 million each. They can barely operate 30 days before a major systems failure.

The LCS has aluminum hulls and are lightly armed with virtually no useful weapons. One LCS tested a Harpoon anti-ship missile, but wider use among the LCS will probably not happen. The ships are armed with Hellfire missiles that don’t have enough range or a large enough warhead to win battles. The Navy was going to build 52 LCS and now will build 40.

The LCS was going to deliver special operation forces for anti-terrorism. It would then change a mission module and hunt for mines or submarines. The modules were a huge disappointment. The LCS was supposed to be more automated and have smaller crews. Crew sizes have been increased because the automation was a disappointment. The GAO also found that both designs were overweight and under performing.

Both the high-end and low-end ships did not work and ended up costing double already high costs.

The US Navy will try to start building twenty new guided missile frigates starting in 2020. The Navy wants to keep costs below $950 million each. Two of the bidders are the US companies (Lockheed and Austal) behind two versions of the LCS. The first ship is to be delivered in 2020 and then two per year from 2021-2030. There will be no new technology in the FFX ships.

The US DDG 51 (Burke) destroyers cost $1.75 billion each.

Chinese ships are about 5 times lower cost than comparable US ships

China is building about 32 Type 054A or Type 054A+ frigates. China is claiming a cost of about $200 million each, but The Diplomat estimates the cost at $348 million.

The follow up Chinese frigate will be the Type 054B and it will have a full electric propulsion system.

Navy talks about lacking numbers of ships but cannot fix their cost disaster

Various advocates for the US Navy talk about the 355 ship navy or wistfully talk about the post-WW2 average of 740 ships.

There has been no automation of ship construction. since the 1960s it has taken about 700 hours of labor per ton of ship. This has not been improved and salaries have skyrocketed.

$1.8 billion Arleigh Burkes are now the reliable low-end and the $2.7 billion Virginia class attack submarines.

The high-end are $10 billion Columbia submarines and $13-15 billion aircraft carriers and $3.7 billion mini-aircraft carriers (aka amphibious attack ships).

Other European countries can build ships at 2-5 times lower cost than the US is able. Those European ships have modern electronics, systems and weapons.

The Navy procurement has been badly broken for decades but it has become a farce in the last 15 years. It is also a tragedy for the American taxpayer.

We have talked by the Air Force, Navy and Marine F35 problem before and will again as that $1-2 trillion joke continues.

Poster Comment:

They probably need a budget increase. /s (2 images)

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#1. To: hondo68 (#0)

Those European ships have modern electronics, systems and weapons.

The implication of this statement is that our costly ships do not have modern electronics, systems and weapons.

Actually, in a ship to ship engagement, the superiority of American technology is such that we would blow every other navy's comparable ship out of the water.

Yes, our ships cost more - our tech is higher, and that costs more. Yes, we could be more efficient about production costs. But even if we had the most modern shipyards, our ships would still cost more than the Chinese or Russian or European ships, because our ships are technologically superior to theirs, and superiority costs.

There is a qualitative advantage to the American vessels.

All that said, we certainly could be more efficient in our production. If we built the ships in Navy yards like we used to, instead of contracting everything out to private contractors, we would have higher quality and lower costs - but the private contractors would not make the money and would not dispense the political patronage to members of Congress that they do.

We have the procurement system political contribution money can buy. It's designed to maximize profit to connected private contractors, not to produce ships at a cost-effective price.

You can have it good, you can have it cheap, or you can have it fast. Pick two.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-07-13   17:51:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#2. To: hondo68 (#0)

You probably already know which country has the best and most powerful navy. But aren’t you curious which countries are right behind THAT country? Check out the other countries with the best navies in our list of the top 10 countries with best navy force in the world.

10. Taiwan (Republic of China Navy)

(Republic of China Navy)

Over the last two decades, the Republic of China Navy has made significant upgrades in naval equipment, mostly by purchasing ships from the US. Taiwan needs a powerful maritime force in order to defend itself from a possible blockade or aggression from China.

The Republic of China Navy is composed of around 38,000 active personnel with over 100 ships on active duty. More specifically, the fleet consists of 4 destroyers, 20 frigates, 31 missile boats, 2 submarines, 12 patrol ships, 1 corvette, 9 minesweepers, 10 amphibious ships, 10 auxiliary ships, and 28 aircrafts.

Quite the formidable fleet, eh? I bet you didn’t expect a small country to have that kind of navy force. Of course, China has the more powerful navy. But you can count on Taiwan to put up a good fight should the two countries engage in maritime warfare. Of course, let’s hope the two countries don’t ever go head-to-head in the future.

9. Italy (Italian Navy)

Italy (Italian Navy)

The Italian Navy was formed in 1946. The Italian maritime force was called the Royal Navy until the Kingdom of Italy was replaced by the Italian Republic after World War II.

Composed of nearly 31,000 active personnel, the Italian Navy has all kinds of modern ships ready to be deployed anytime to protect the country from maritime threats. The fleet includes 2 aircraft carriers, 8 attack submarines, 3 amphibious assault ships, 4 destroyers, 13 frigates, 2 corvettes, 10 offshore patrol ships, 10 minehunters, and 4 coastal patrol boats.

The Italian Navy also has a wide range of auxiliary and support ships, which include diving support ships, hydrographic survey ships, coastal oil tanker ships, coastal transport ships, and coastal tugboats. Italy is continuously upgrading its navy forces, so expect the Italian Navy to become even more formidable within the next few years.

8. South Korea (Republic of Korea Navy)

Korea (Republic of Korea Navy)

Like Taiwan, South Korea has been steadily upgrading its naval forces since the 1990s. But unlike the Republic of China Navy, almost all of the ships deployed by the Republic of Korea Navy were built on home soil, with most of the ships built by big-name companies such as Hyundai and Daewoo.

The Republic of Korea Navy has approximately 70,000 active personnel, more than the combined personnel of the Italian Navy and the Republic of China Navy. The fleet includes 16 submarines, 1 amphibious assault ship, 6 landing ships, 8 landing crafts, 12 destroyers, 13 frigates, 16 corvettes, 11 mine countermeasures ships, and 70 patrol ships. Additionally, the Republic of Korea Navy has approximately 70 aircrafts.

With the threat of North Korea always on the horizon, South Korea definitely needs a powerful navy in order to protect itself against sea-based attacks from its neighbor. Fortunately, the South Korean economy has been steadily rising since the Korean War, allowing the government to spend a hefty amount of money on modern military equipment.

Based on how things are currently unfolding with North Korea, you can bet the South Korean government is looking into bolstering the country’s naval defenses even more.

7. India (Indian Navy)

India (Indian Navy)

Formerly called the Royal Indian Navy, the Indian Navy is one of the largest navies in the world, composed of over 67,000 active personnel and over 200 ships, which includes auxiliary and support ships. The Indian Navy is made up of both domestically produced ships and ships originating from other countries such as Russia, Germany, Israel, and Sri Lanka.

The Indian Navy has 1 aircraft carrier, 1 nuclear-powered attack submarine, 1 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, 14 conventionally powered submarines, 11 destroyers, 14 frigates, 1 amphibious warfare ship, 8 landing ships, 8 landing crafts, 24 corvettes, 4 minesweepers, 1 torpedo recovery ship, 10 offshore patrol ships, 19 patrol ships, 110 patrol boats, and various auxiliary and support ships.

Commanded by the Chief of the Naval Staff, the Indian Army is one of the best navy forces in the world, capable of deterring all sorts of maritime threats. Overall, India fields one of the best militaries in the world. Not to mention, the country is also equipped with nukes.

6. France (French Navy)

France (French 

Formed in 1624, the French Navy is one of the oldest navy forces in the world. Nicknamed “La Royale,” the French Navy participated in both World Wars and was instrumental in establishing the French colonial empire.

The French Navy is composed of about 36,000 active personnel and has over 200 aircrafts. The fleet includes 1 aircraft carrier, 4 ballistic missile submarines, 6 attack submarines, 3 amphibious warfare ships, 4 air-defense destroyers, 8 anti-submarine destroyers, 5 general-purpose frigates, 6 surveillance frigates, 21 patrol ships, and 18 mine countermeasures ships.

The roster also includes a number of auxiliary and support ships, including training ships, tugboats, and replenishment ships. France is also one of the top 10 countries with the most powerful nuclear weapons in the world, so the fact that it has such a formidable maritime force isn’t really surprising.

5. United Kingdom (Royal Navy)

United Kingdom 
(Royal Navy)

The Royal Navy is a branch of Her Majesty’s Naval Service, which also includes the Royal Marines, Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Marines Reserve, and Naval Careers Service. Founded in 1546, the Royal Navy was once hailed the most powerful navy in the world.

The Royal Navy boasts a fleet of modernized ships, all built in the United Kingdom except for one ship, the HMS Protector. The fleet includes 1 aircraft carrier, 4 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, 6 nuclear-powered fleet submarines, 3 amphibious warfare ships, 6 destroyers, 13 frigates, 3 offshore patrols ships, 13 minehunters, 18 fast patrol boats, 4 survey ships, and 1 icebreaker (the aforementioned HMS Protector).

Additionally, the Royal Navy employs a Type 82 destroyer, the HMS Bristol, and a ship of the line, the HMS Victory. The latter is notable for being the oldest naval ship still in commission and serves as the flagship of the First Sea Lord.

4. Japan (Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force)

(Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force)

The Japan Maritime Self- Defense Force was formally created in 1954, several years after the Imperial Japanese Navy was scrapped following World War II. It has nearly 51,000 active personnel and has a fleet composed of over 150 ships and over 300 aircrafts, making it one of the largest navy forces in the world.

The Japan Maritime Self- Defense Force includes 17 attack submarines, 26 destroyers, 10 frigates, 4 helicopter destroyers, 6 corvettes, 3 landing ships, 2 landing crafts, 25 mine countermeasures ships, 6 patrol ships, and 8 training ships. The auxiliary fleet is composed of 5 replenishment ships, 5 training support ships, and various other ships, including an icebreaker and an experiment ship.

Just like South Korea, Japan has been recently upgrading its navy equipment in order to have the proper defense against the threat of North Korea. In fact, the Japanese government has been contemplating about deploying nuclear weapons as a deterrent against North Korea.

3. Russia (Russian Navy)

Russia (Russian Navy)

Officially formed in 1992 following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the current Russian Navy is one of the largest navy forces in the world. It features about 148,000 active personnel, nearly tripling the active personnel of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force. It has over 300 active ships and over 300 aircrafts.

The main fleet of the Russian Navy is composed of 1 aircraft carrier, 1 battlecruiser, 3 cruisers, 13 destroyers, 8 frigates, 78 corvettes, 17 SSN attack submarines, 22 SSK attack submarines, 13 ballistic missile submarines, 7 cruise missile submarines, 3 special-purpose submarines, 19 landing ship tanks, 32 landing crafts, 14 special-purpose ships, 41 patrol boats, and 47 mine countermeasures ships.

Though Russia is more known for its powerful ground forces, the Russian Navy will be quick to remind everyone that the country is also heavily armed for maritime skirmishes.

2. China (People’s Liberation Army Navy)

(People’s Liberation Army Navy)

The People’s Liberation Army Navy has rapidly developed into one of the most powerful navy forces in the world. It has the largest number of major combatants of any navy and has over 250,000 active personnel, a number only second to the US.

The People’s Liberation Army Navy is composed of – take a deep breath – 1 aircraft carrier, 5 amphibious transport docks, 1 mobile landing platform, 32 landing ship tanks, 31 landing ship mediums, 8 SSN attack submarines, 55 SSK attack submarines, 5 ballistic missile submarines, 2 experimental submarines, 34 destroyers, 51 frigates, 42 corvettes, 109 missile boats, 94 submarine chasers, 17 gunboats, 29 mine countermeasures ships, 12 replenishment ships, and over 200 auxiliary ships.

Furthermore, the People’s Liberation Army Navy has over 700 aircrafts in service. In summary: Don’t mess with China. Ever.

1. United States (United States Navy)

United States 
(United States Navy)

The United States Navy is hands down the best and most powerful navy in the world. It eclipses all the other navies in the world by an almost comical margin. It has over 300,000 active personnel with another 100,000 in reserve. Most notably, the United States Navy can deploy over 3,700 aircrafts, which is a totally insane number.

The list of commissioned ships of the United States Navy includes 11 aircraft carriers, 9 amphibious assault ships, 2 amphibious command ships, 11 amphibious transport docks, 52 attack submarines, 14 ballistic missile submarines, 4 guided missile submarines, 1 classic frigate, 22 cruisers, 65 destroyers, 12 dock landing ships, 1 expeditionary mobile base, 10 littoral combat ships, 11 mine countermeasures ships, 13 patrol boats, and 2 submarine tenders.

Technically, the USS Pueblo, a technical research ship, is still in commission. However, it is currently held captive by North Korea, which attacked and captured the ship for allegedly entering North Korean territory in 1968.

The US is easily the top country with the best navy force in the world. And it will most likely remain at the top for the foreseeable future, based on how much the US government spends on military equipment.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   21:51:54 ET  (10 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#3. To: Gatlin, USS Forrestal, Wet Start Johnny R-AZ (#2)

Your Senator Wet Start Johnny could put that out of service in a matter of minutes. Those rows of aircraft are sitting ducks for the maverick.

Hondo68  posted on  2018-07-13   22:12:03 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#4. To: hondo68 (#3) (Edited)

Your Senator Wet Start Johnny could put that out of service in a matter of minutes.

Yep - Arizona politicians apparently think that rules and laws don't apply to them. According to Gatlin/Parsons - they are obviously libertarians.

Arizona lawmaker bragged to deputy about speeding during traffic stop

State Rep. Paul Mosley was stopped for driving 97 mph in a 55 mph zone by a La Paz County sheriff’s deputy on March 27.

“Well, I was doing 120 earlier,” he says in the bodycam footage published by ParkerLive. “Yeah, this goes 140. That’s what I like about it. … Yeah, I go 130, 140, 120. Yeah, I come down I-10, I was going 120 almost, you know, if there was no traffic.”

To add to the controversy, “the deputy said in a report later that the driver claimed to have legislative immunity,” reports CBS News.

Of course Johnny boy wasn't a politician at the time, however he did display the pschopathic behavior that is so prevalent in politicians.

Just wondering - how many sailors did McStain kill with his wet-start shenanigans?

Of course his Admiral daddy was there to bail him out.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Trump: My People Should ‘Sit Up in Attention’ Like Kim Jong-un’s Staff.

Deckard  posted on  2018-07-13   22:30:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#5. To: hondo68 (#0)

A Look Inside the Most Powerful Ships in the U.S. Navy.

The U.S. Navy is the most powerful in the world. It has a collection of vessels that would make Poseidon blush and stop a kraken in its tracks. Both new and old, some of these weapons systems are the gold standard for naval ships. Here are the Navy’s most powerful vessels. Only a wise person would know what the most powerful ship is on the last page.

9. Littoral combat ships

The U.S. Navy’s USS Coronado (LCS 4) | Roslan Rahman/AFP/Getty Images

Littoral combat ships are designed for warfare close to the shores. These are fast and deadly ships that can travel up to 40 knots. For a vessel of that size, that is some serious speed. These are used for fast assaults, and generally carry a hefty armament for destroying other small vessels. They also have the ability to deploy small tactical teams to take over other vessels.

Next: The LCS’s big brother

8. The Arleigh Burke-class destroyer

USS Stethem (DDG 63) | VCG/VCG via Getty Images

The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers are a serious force in our Navy. They compose about 20% of all of our naval vessels. The U.S. Navy has been so impressed with their performance that they aren’t even phasing them out for a better destroyer (something they typically do all the time). They are actually building them at the same time. Each class of destroyer has their own distinct advantages, and the Arleigh Burke-class ship is designed for multi-surface warfare; it can attack vessels under, on, or above the sea.

Next: Probably the coolest looking ship in the water

7. The Zumwalt-class destroyer

USS Zumwalt (DDG 1000) | U.S. Navy/General Dynamics Bath Iron Works via Getty Images

Looking like something out of a science fiction movie, the USS Zumwalt is the largest destroyer in the world. Its sleek design provides it with a stealth profile that registers on the enemy radar as a small fishing vessel. Ever looking to the future, the Zumwalt can be retrofitted for electromagnetic rail guns or laser weapons when they become available.

Next: You would never see this ship coming.

6. The Virginia-class submarine

USS New Hampshire (SSN 778) | Jeremy Lambert/U.S. Navy via Getty Images

The Virginia-class submarines are the U.S. Navy’s most powerful attack submarine. In fact, they are so efficient and advanced, we are building two a year. These puppies can do anything, from deploying a SEAL team from below the surface of the water, to launching cruise missiles. They are considered some of the most deadly weapons systems we have.

Next: A ship that is rightfully known as a “boomer”

5. The Ohio-class submarine

USS Florida (SSGN 728) | David Nagle/U.S. Navy/Getty Images

The Ohio-class submarines are our intercontinental ballistic missile launch platforms. They are designed for stealth and are a strategic deterrent to other countries wanting to launch nuclear arms against the U.S. Even though these submarines have the capability of destroying entire countries, they are being tamed a bit. Due to international treaties, some of the Ohio-class subs are being converted into guided missile launch platforms, like the USS Florida pictured above.

Next: Something like this would likely be used in a D-Day type of scenario.

4. Wasp-class amphibious assault ship

USS Bataan (LHD 5) | David C. Mercil/US Navy/Getty Images

The Bataan looks like an aircraft carrier, but it is technically a ship in the Wasp-class. They are amphibious assault ships. Every vehicle on the ship is designed to assist in assault missions. There are Harrier jets, Ospreys, Chinooks, and pretty much every other vertical take-off and landing vehicle you can think of. And if you need a vehicle to get your armor to the beach, they also have hovercraft to transport heavy assault and support vehicles. The Wasp-class will be replaced with the newer America-class amphibious assault ships soon, but for now, they remain the king of their class.

Next: This ship brings new meaning to a cannon.

3. The battleship

USS Wisconsin (BB-64) | Naval History and Heritage Command

It is true that the era of battleships in the Navy has come to an end, but that doesn’t change the fact that these were the most powerful ships in the sea for almost two centuries. The Iowa-class battleship had a battery of 16-inch guns that were capable of launching nuclear warheads. During the 19th and 20th centuries, if a country wanted superiority on the sea, they needed an accompaniment of these legendary ships.

Next: The most advanced carriers in the world

2. The Ford-class aircraft carrier

USS Gerald Ford (CVN 78) | Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Ridge Leoni/U.S. Navy via Getty Images

The USS Gerald Ford is the newest aircraft carrier to join the U.S. Navy. It is the largest aircraft carrier in the world and has some very serious power behind it. This ship can hold over 75 assault aircraft and lay some serious waste to any conflict zone it’s sent to. You can check out the longer version of what this ship is capable of here.

Next: The most powerful ship in the Navy

1. Navy hospital ships

The Military Sealift Command hospital ship USNS Mercy (T-AH-19) | Gabriel R. Piper/U.S. Navy via Getty Images

The USNS Mercy and USNS Comfort are the military’s two hospital ships. These massive ships stand 10 stories tall and are the length of three football fields. Hospital ships can be deployed anywhere in the world to treat our soldiers and assist in humanitarian crises.

More powerful than any missile, shell, or bullet, is the power of compassion. These ships emulate that kind of compassion.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   22:45:17 ET  (9 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#6. To: hondo68 (#0)

Navy's D5 Missile, Most Powerful U.S. Weapon, To Provide Backbone Of Nuclear Deterrent Through 2040

The U.S. Navy announced on May 26 that it was awarding Lockheed Martin a $43.9 million contract for work supporting production and sustainment of the Trident II D5 missile. It was a relatively modest award as these things go, so the announcement went largely unnoticed outside the defense community.

You would never guess from reading the news release that the D5 is the most powerful, reliable weapon in the U.S. military arsenal -- a system so potent that it is the centerpiece of U.S. efforts to prevent nuclear war. Nor would it be apparent that Lockheed Martin, prime contractor on the missile, has been performing similar services for the Navy since 1955. In fact, it has built all six generations of the Navy's Fleet Ballistic Missile in one of the longest continuous relationships any company has ever had with the world's premier sea service.

Lockheed Martin has been a contributor to my think thank and a consulting client for nearly a third of that time, and even I seldom hear anything about the D5. The reason why is that unlike just about any other major weapon system you can mention, there never seems to be a problem with the missile. The Navy runs a very tight ship when it comes to nuclear deterrence, and it keeps Lockheed Martin on board because its three-stage, solid-fuel ballistic missile is the most reliable such vehicle ever built, bar none.

A D5 missile first-stage engine ignites after clearing the water's surface in a 2014 flight test. A burst of steam expels the missile from the sub and into the air prior to engine ignition. The D5 has been tested successfully 165 times. A D5 missile first-stage engine ignites after clearing the water's surface in a 2014 flight test. A burst of steam expels the missile from the sub and into the air prior to engine ignition. The D5 has been tested successfully 165 times.WIKIMEDIA

How reliable? Since its design was completed in 1989, the D5 has executed 165 successful test flights -- a record unmatched by any other large ballistic missile or launch vehicle. As for its potency, a single D5 equipped with multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles carrying nuclear warheads can destroy a small country such as North Korea. A handful of D5s could collapse the entire electrical grid, transportation network and information infrastructure of even the largest countries. And the Navy has hundreds of D5 missiles.

So why would the United States need such a fearsome weapon? The answer comes down to this: if you can't defend your homeland against a large-scale nuclear attack then the next-best option is to threaten adversaries with devastating retaliation if they launch one. In other words, you have to convince the enemy that attacking America would be suicidal. The strategy is called deterrence, and it is the main reason why no foreign nation has seriously threatened the U.S. with nuclear aggression since the Navy built out its undersea missile force.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   22:54:31 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#7. To: hondo68 (#0)

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   23:00:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#8. To: hondo68 (#7)

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   23:05:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#9. To: hondo68 (#8)

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   23:10:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#10. To: hondo68 (#9)

Why China still can’t beat US to become the world’s most powerful navy

China will eventually become the world's No 2 aircraft carrier power, trailing only the United States, but its carrier strike group air crews are still far below international standard, military experts say.

"An aircraft carrier needs regular large-scale maintenance. China should have more than four carrier groups if it wants to fulfill escort missions on the high seas and safeguard its overseas national interests," Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie said.

"A sole aircraft carrier cannot become a fighting force because it needs the presence of other warships to form a strike group, as well as the protection given by other vessels," Li said.

The US navy maintains 10 active carrier strike groups based in the US and overseas naval bases. An 11th will come into service when the carrier USS Gerald R. Ford is commissioned. But China just has one active conventional aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, a refurbished former Soviet Kuznetsov-class carrier formerly named Varyag that was unfinished when China acquired it.

On April 26, China launched its second aircraft carrier, the first to be domestically designed and built, which is expected to enter full service in three years.

Li said a formal aircraft carrier strike group needs 4,500 to 5,000 crew members, including carrier-borne fighter pilots, air operation officers, engineers and crew members on other warships.

China's two carriers will require about 10,000 crew when fully operating.

When naval officers started operating the Liaoning, they faced a big challenge - commanding more than 2,000 crew members from 19 ethnic groups, according to a China Central Television documentary that aired in March.

"We were in a mess when we started to drill the crew - all the passageways became blocked with people when the bell rang," Chen Yueqi, commander of the Liaoning, told CCTV. Chaos plagued meal time, even though the ship has 10 canteens, he added.

Problems persisted until the ship's leaders came up with a comprehensive roster plan that divided working and meal times among the sailors.

Compared with their US counterparts, who represent 10 active aircraft carrier strike groups and an organisation with more than 100 years' experience, Chinese crews are just "kindergarten students", Li said.

The US navy has set up a comprehensive carrier air operational system, including the high-intensity launch and recovery of aircraft under all weather conditions, keeping a comprehensive crew roster and co-ordinating different warships within a strike group.

To make the Liaoning functional, China has copied many parts of the US air crew operation system, including the rainbow-coloured uniforms designed for flight deck crews and the gesture language of Landing Signal Officers (LSO), Arresting Gear Officers (AGO) and other crew members.

"Cultivating a team of qualified carrier-based fighter pilots, along with LSO, AGO and other crew is much harder than training fighter jet pilots and air operators based on land, because the length of the runway on a carrier deck is just one-tenth of the airstrip on land," Li said.

"Hardware of aircraft carriers can be quickly constructed through working around the clock once you got the construction technology," he said. "But training crews takes tremendous experience, which can only be achieved by being accumulated over time."

The PLA Navy has tested the Liaoning in trial trips since it joined the Navy in September 2012. But the carrier's first full-scale, "distant sea waters" drill in the Western Pacific took place last Christmas Eve, more than four years after its maiden trial.

The Liaoning was part of a fleet that included 10 warships, a 052D destroyer, two 052C destroyers, two 054 frigates, two Type 094A ballistic missile submarines, one corvette and one supply ship. With the involvement of more than 20 carrier-based and fixed-wing aircraft, the aggregation effectively comprised a full-scale carrier strike group, according to CCTV.

The drill demanded that the carrier-borne pilots take off and land on the shaking deck in the South China Sea, pushing them to land by data provided by flight instruments instead of using a visual reference for landing.

The cloud was very low in the South China Sea, so we couldn't see where the [Liaoning] carrier was," Zhang Ye, head of the PLA navy's carrier-borne force and the pilot of a carrier-based J-15, told CCTV after making the first take-off and landing during the high-seas drill on January 2.

"In this case, we should trust flight instruments and let them guide us to our aircraft carrier."

Just over a week later, on January 11, the Liaoning carrier strike group sailed north through the Taiwan Strait, heading home after touring 5,800 nautical miles in a three-week voyage, drawing Taiwanese military attention by scrambling fighters.

The CCTV reported the South China Sea training had helped the Liaoning pilots quickly master night flights, the first step in becoming proficient in all-weather operations.

Li Jie said the number of carrier-borne pilots should more than equal the quantity of J-15 fighters. For example, a US aircraft carrier with 80 aircraft has more than 120 pilots on board. But China so far just has 37 carrier-borne pilots in total, which is only enough to serve the 24 J-15 fighter Squadron on the Liaoning.

Macau-based military observer Antony Wong Dong said the operating system of the Chinese navy still lags the requirements of an ocean-going combat fleet, because it is in the midst of transitioning from a coastal navy to a blue-water navy.

"The operating system of China's three naval fleets has been reformed over the decades, and so far its first carrier strike group [training system] is similar to a Japanese maritime self-defence force operation, forming temporary strike groups based on different [drill] missions given by superior military leadership," Wong said.

"For long-term development and strategic needs, Chinese aircraft carrier battle groups will tend to learn more and more from the US naval model to focus on aircraft carriers," he said.

Wong said the Chinese navy will establish more fixed and standing battle groups in the future to enable crews to expand their understanding of tactics.

"It's still a long way to go for Chinese carrier strike group crews to catch up their US counterparts," he added.


Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-13   23:33:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#11. To: hondo68 (#3)

Your Senator Wet Start Johnny could put that out of service in a matter of minutes. Those rows of aircraft are sitting ducks for the maverick.
A fabricated story blames the fluke 1967 aircraft carrier fire on the negligence of John McCain. According to the U.S. Navy’s exhaustive investigation into the incident, the findings of which are summarized below in an excerpt from an article by Commander Hank Stewart, USN (Ret.), a naval engineer, the fire was actually caused by the accidental firing of an Mk-32 “Zuni” rocket as a result of an electrical power surge during preparations for a strike against a target in North Vietnam:

Several of the planes started their engines in preparation for launching. Without warning, a rocket was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom jet fighter. The rocket struck and ripped open an A-4 Skyhawk on the other side of the flight deck. The rocket passed through the aircraft without exploding and hit the ocean. However, several hundred gallons of jet fuel poured from the Skyhawk’s punctured fuel tank and was ignited by burning rocket fuel left on the flight deck. Burning fuel was spread by the heavy winds across the flight deck and covered several more planes. Within seconds, these aircraft began burning, and the fire continued to spread. The ship immediately sounded general quarters (sending the crew to their battle stations), and an announcement notified the crew of the fire on the flight deck. The heat of the fire exploded a bomb on the flight deck approximately 90 seconds after the fire began, and a second bomb exploded a few seconds later. These explosions severely damaged the carrier and killed several Sailors on the flight deck. The fuel tanks of other planes ruptured, adding to the intensity of the blaze. The exploding bombs also created several holes in the flight deck, spilling burning jet fuel into the ship and allowing fire and smoke to spread inside the ship.

Forrestal’s crew battled and eventually extinguished the fire, with assistance from other Navy ships in the area. It took more than 24 hours to extinguish the fires below the flight deck. The losses caused by this incident were high and included 134 Sailors killed by the fire, and 161 injured. More than 20 aircraft were destroyed. The damage forced Forrestal to suspend combat operations and conduct temporary repairs in the Philippines before returning to the U.S. for permanent repair. Repairs to the ship cost approximately $72 million (equal to more than $528 million in 2017 dollars), and took approximately two years to complete.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   0:15:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#12. To: Gatlin, Navy Lemons, USS Gerald R. Ford (#8)

The new US Navy ships are so bad that they're patching up the old ones with duct tape & bailing wire to keep 'em going.

Navy’s Troubled Ford Carrier Makes Modest Progress

General Atomics says it is launching new, heavier planes from its EMALS carrier launcher. The launches are taking place on land, and won't be attempted on board the $13 billion Ford for some time, however.

WASHINGTON A decade after the initial $5.1 billion contract was awarded to begin construction of the USS Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier, the troubled ship is finally closer to be able to launch and recover a variety of aircraft.

One of the many issues that have plagued the ship — causing years of schedule slippages and cost overruns — has been the reliability of the electromagnetic catapults and arresting gear (EMALS), which a Pentagon report said earlier this year have proven unreliable under all but the best conditions. The idea of replacing traditional steam catapults with the EMALS was meant to do away with the requirement for the ship to generate and store steam. That frees up a large area below-deck and requires 25 percent fewer crew members to operate. The Navy has said the savings would shave about $4 billion off operating costs over the ship’s expected 50-year lifespan.

In its report released in January, the Pentagon’s director of test and evaluation said the “poor or unknown reliability of the newly designed catapults, arresting gear…could affect the ability of CVN 78 to generate sorties, make the ship more vulnerable to attack, or create limitations during routine operations.” Given the reliability issues, the Ford would be “unlikely to be able to conduct the type of high-intensity flight operations expected during wartime,” the study concluded.

The Ford even came up on President Trump’s radar early in 2017, when he detailed his uneasiness with using an electromagnetic system instead of steam in an interview with Time magazine. “It sounded bad to me,” he infamously said. “Digital. They have digital. What is digital? And it’s very complicated, you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out.” When told EMALS was going to go on all carriers from here on out, “I said no you’re not. You’re going to goddamned steam, the digital costs hundreds of millions of dollars more money and it’s no good.”

However, the EMALS — obviously — continues.

But the Ford just keeps running into problems. In May, the carrier was forced back to port at Norfolk while undergoing sea trials after it experienced issues that the Navy would not discuss in detail.

“The ship experienced a propulsion system issue associated with a recent design change, requiring a return to homeport for adjustments before resuming at sea testing,” Colleen O’Rourke, spokeswoman for Naval Sea Systems Command in Washington, said in a statement.

Concerned by the problems getting the ship to sea, and the desired to bulk up the entire fleet to 355 ships in the next several decades, a provision in the House’s 2019 National Defense Authorization Act directs the Navy to consider extending the service life of the USS Nimitz, commissioned in 1975. The House instructed Navy Secretary Richard Spencer to brief the House Armed Services Committee no later than March 2019 on options to extend the service life of the Nimitz.

The Senate’s version also demands a report on keeping the carrier around past it’s 50-year lifespan in 2025, but asks for it by January 2019.

Hondo68  posted on  2018-07-14   0:29:04 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#13. To: Deckard (#4)

Just wondering - how many sailors did McStain kill with his wet-start shenanigans?
You can cease your wondering.

The fire was actually caused by the accidental firing of an Mk-32 “Zuni” rocket as a result of an electrical power surge during preparations for a strike against a target in North Vietnam:

Official Investigation of Forrestal Fire.
Yu dumbasss libertarians NEVER get anything right.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   0:29:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#14. To: hondo68 (#11)

A fabricated story blames the fluke 1967 aircraft carrier fire on the negligence of John McCain. According to the U.S. Navy’s exhaustive investigation into the incident, the findings of which are summarized below in an excerpt from an article by Commander Hank Stewart, USN (Ret.), a naval engineer, the fire was actually caused by the accidental firing of an Mk-32 “Zuni” rocket as a result of an electrical power surge during preparations for a strike against a target in North Vietnam:

Cover-up by the Navy to protect the idiot son of a Navy Admiral.

McCain: Johnny Wet-Start Gets A Pass from the Media

The plane struck by the missile was McCain’s A-4 Skyhawk, a fitting “quirk of fate” since it was McCain’s “wet start” that triggered the firing of the missile that hit his jet in the first place. 

From the point of ignition of the missile in the conflagration on the Forrestal, McCain leapt from his jet and rolled out of the flames. No mention was ever made of McCain experiencing “wounds” from the incident in any of the accounts of those onboard the Forrestal in July, 1967 -- all lower in rank than McCain’s father who had rank over all officers in the Forrestal’s theater of operations. 

According to established reports, McCain was the first person to be reassigned to the USS Oriskany, probably to protect him from the friends of the 134 killed and 161 injured on the USS Forrestal.What this all means is that John McCain and his campaign are “revising history,” using McCain’s father’s position within the Navy to hide and distort matters of historical fact. 

All this fact-bending in order to spare the privileged son of a distinguished Naval officer the embarrassment of having to explain how he was responsible for the worst disaster on a naval aircraft carrier since World War II, and yet was honorably discharged and continues to receive a veteran’s pension.


If McCain wasn't at fault, why did he need to be transferred for his own safety?

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Trump: My People Should ‘Sit Up in Attention’ Like Kim Jong-un’s Staff.

Deckard  posted on  2018-07-14   0:34:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#15. To: Gatlin (#13) (Edited)

The fire was actually caused by the accidental firing of an Mk-32 “Zuni” rocket as a result of an electrical power surge during preparations for a strike against a target in North Vietnam:

Historical revisionism.

If McCain wasn't at fault, why did he need to be transferred for his own safety?

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Trump: My People Should ‘Sit Up in Attention’ Like Kim Jong-un’s Staff.

Deckard  posted on  2018-07-14   0:36:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#16. To: hondo68 (#12)

Navy’s Troubled Ford Carrier Makes Modest Progress

Nothing new here or anything to be concerned about. Every new weapon system and weapon has problems during the development, testing and initial deploment phases.

We need only look at the Atomic bomb to see this.

FDR authorized the Manhattan project 6 December 1941. General Groves is put in charge of the project and recruits Oppenheimer as the Scientific Director, 23 September 1942. Trinity, the successful test of the Atomic bomb, 16 July 1945.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   0:38:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#17. To: Deckard (#15) (Edited)

Historical revisionism.

That is simply not true. It was the results of the investigation started immediately after the fire.

A Zuni rocket accidently fired. A "pig tail" had been inserted on an aircraft too early, creating an electrical connection between the rocket and the plane's engine. The Zuni flew across the deck, into the fuel tank of a Skyhawk, already loaded and ready for second mission of the day.

If McCain wasn't at fault, why did he need to be transferred for his own safety?
Where did you read this? Link, please.

McCain made an application for a transfer to the Oriskany to continue his combat tour. It was approved. McCain was shot down while flying off the Oriskany.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   0:48:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#18. To: Deckard (#14)

Cover-up by the Navy to protect the idiot son of a Navy Admiral.

It was McCain’s “wet start” that triggered the firing of the missile that hit his jet in the first place.

No true. Read the Official Accident Investigation Report. I gave you a link.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   1:01:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#19. To: Gatlin (#18)

Read the Official Accident Investigation Report.

I gave you a link.

No one believes your lying admirals after that yukon wuz hacked phony story.

Is it ghey pron?

Hondo68  posted on  2018-07-14   1:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#20. To: hondo68 (#19)

Read the Official Accident Investigation Report.

I gave you a link.

No one believes your lying admirals after that yukon wuz hacked phony story.

You can’t say NO ONE believes the Official Accident Investigation Report.

You can say YOU don’t believe it,

But YOU can never PROVE it wrong.

Remember that …

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   1:35:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#21. To: Gatlin, hondo68 (#17)

McCain made an application for a transfer to the Oriskany to continue his combat tour

so he wouldn't get his ass kicked by what was left of the crew.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Trump: My People Should ‘Sit Up in Attention’ Like Kim Jong-un’s Staff.

Deckard  posted on  2018-07-14   3:10:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#22. To: Deckard (#21) (Edited)

so he wouldn't get his ass kicked by what was left of the crew.
Why would they want to do that when he had absolutely nothing to do with the accident?

I guess you missed this, so I will repeat it for you.

A Zuni rocket accidently fired (from a F-4, not McCain’s Skyhawk aircraft). A "pig tail" had been inserted on an aircraft too early, creating an electrical connection between the rocket and the plane's engine. The Zuni flew across the deck, into the fuel tank of a Skyhawk, already loaded and ready for second mission of the day.
Tell me, why do you libertarians have so much trouble accepting facts?

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-14   7:55:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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