[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Deadly Saltwater and Deadly Fresh Water to Increase

Deadly Cancers to soon Become Thing of the Past?

Plague of deadly New Diseases Continues

[FULL VIDEO] Police release bodycam footage of Monroe County District Attorney Sandra Doorley traffi

Police clash with pro-Palestine protesters on Ohio State University campus

Joe Rogan Experience #2138 - Tucker Carlson

Police Dispersing Student Protesters at USC - Breaking News Coverage (College Protests)

What Passover Means For The New Testament Believer

Are We Closer Than Ever To The Next Pandemic?

War in Ukraine Turns on Russia

what happened during total solar eclipse

Israel Attacks Iran, Report Says - LIVE Breaking News Coverage

Earth is Scorched with Heat

Antiwar Activists Chant ‘Death to America’ at Event Featuring Chicago Alderman

Vibe Shift

A stream that makes the pleasant Rain sound.

Older Men - Keep One Foot In The Dark Ages

When You Really Want to Meet the Diversity Requirements

CERN to test world's most powerful particle accelerator during April's solar eclipse

Utopian Visionaries Who Won’t Leave People Alone

No - no - no Ain'T going To get away with iT

Pete Buttplug's Butt Plugger Trying to Turn Kids into Faggots

Mark Levin: I'm sick and tired of these attacks

Questioning the Big Bang

James Webb Data Contradicts the Big Bang

Pssst! Don't tell the creationists, but scientists don't have a clue how life began

A fine romance: how humans and chimps just couldn't let go

Early humans had sex with chimps

O’Keefe dons bulletproof vest to extract undercover journalist from NGO camp.

Biblical Contradictions (Alleged)

Catholic Church Praising Lucifer

Raising the Knife

One Of The HARDEST Videos I Had To Make..

Houthi rebels' attack severely damages a Belize-flagged ship in key strait leading to the Red Sea (British Ship)

Chinese Illegal Alien. I'm here for the moneuy

Red Tides Plague Gulf Beaches

Tucker Carlson calls out Nikki Haley, Ben Shapiro, and every other person calling for war:

{Are there 7 Deadly Sins?} I’ve heard people refer to the “7 Deadly Sins,” but I haven’t been able to find that sort of list in Scripture.

Abomination of Desolation | THEORY, BIBLE STUDY

Bible Help

Libertysflame Database Updated

Crush EVERYONE with the Alien Gambit!

Vladimir Putin tells Tucker Carlson US should stop arming Ukraine to end war

Putin hints Moscow and Washington in back-channel talks in revealing Tucker Carlson interview

Trump accuses Fulton County DA Fani Willis of lying in court response to Roman's motion

Mandatory anti-white racism at Disney.

Iceland Volcano Erupts For Third Time In 2 Months, State Of Emergency Declared

Tucker Carlson Interview with Vladamir Putin

How will Ar Mageddon / WW III End?

What on EARTH is going on in Acts 16:11? New Discovery!


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 35841
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Comments (1-159) not displayed.
      .
      .
      .

#160. To: Pinguinite (#149)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

I apologize for not finishing up my Part 3 of response -- which would have/will included that Bible quote....

You're right -- I didn't construe your quote as anywhere near "mocking" or insulting; My initial impression was in chuckling to myself. I thought it was clever and conveyed in great humor. Yup, IOW, I "got it".

I'll be out of thought-sequence on Part 3, but may as well respond and expound on your thoughts about "forgiveness" as was taught by Jesus.

"Seventy-times seven" -- there are a few different ways to interpret it; One obviously is the degree and extent to which we should forgive our brothers (just as long as they are truly repentant).

Another is the numerology facet, which the Bible and Jesus often cited. The number 7 is the number of perfection and completeness. It is said (and discovered) as yet one more divine non-coincidence that life operates in cycles of seven (the perfect number chosen by God.)

(For example, in the book of Revelation there are seven churches, seven angels to the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpet plagues, seven thunders and the seven last plagues. The first resurrection of the dead takes place at the 7th trumpet, completing salvation for the Church. And of course, Micky Mantle wore #7 ;-)

But back on track -- IF as you say we, mankind, are to forgive as applied law (again, just as long as the offense and sin is NOT habitual and repentance is sincere), then it is what it is.

That said, should the rules, laws, and conditions for Mankind within the realm of our mortal, finite plane be applied to Almighty God in His Realm? I think that is the crucial distinction to consider here.

We are not The Final Judge and Arbiter of Sin and Justice; God set up the rules and laws -- and He was clear about the Finality of His Judgment. His "restrictive limit on forgiveness" is ultimately hinging on our own heart-felt repentance as well as whether we've accepted His Son, Jesus, in the very last act of "Forgiveness" by the only One who matters -- God.

Yes, man may be able to forgive one another for 70 Times 7...until Judgment Day, when the John 3:16 "Clause" kicks in.

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Yes, "limits" do mean "definitive". As do "Laws" in the strictest sense.

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He? It could be construed as a lack of discipline where the evil "students" get a Mulligan forever while the "holy" students are arguably bumped up into "Counselor" positions as a reward. Maybe it's just me -- it doesn't feel like "love"; it feels like an absentee parenting.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"? From my perspective, sorta like a substitute teacher or foster parent who is technically "there" and in charge, but is merely going through the motions until the "Lesson" may or may not be learned, *only* "Quizes" are given on life (NOT do or die "Tests"), and students/children "graduate" or become "adult" only if they feel motivated.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

The Christan God's "love" can be seen in nature in the sun, the water, the food, in nature. It's the tip of the iceberg of His Kingdom. That's not to say that man won't experience deep hardship and heartbreak in this life. For those who take the Narrow Path (yes, God doesn't sugar-coat it -- far more will not make it, but let's remember that that path is a matter of OUR own Free Will.)

The Christian God's love and promises are not only far more tangible than the Newton model, but reach deep into the heart and soul of those seeking Him. He speaks to those who speak to Him. The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Ping, I'm sorry -- I just don't see any of that "Everything works better". I realize you'll discount that as a blind eye or ignorance, but the Newton model seems like a Karmic system that dispenses no actual Justice, has no "Helm", no "Captain", and no real Destination.

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment. Yes, along with possible Damnation. But also...Possible Eternal Life with God in His Perfect Kingdom. (This account is described and confirmed by several sources in Scripture. Is there a "confirmed" source of Newtonian Afterlife?)

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. (That notion/belief still doesn't mean it's Model confirms what actually happens THE Second after we die.)

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model.

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous. Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

(Moreover, to clarify -- IF true "Justice" were to be meted out by God on Judgment Day, ALL mankind would be declared guilty and condemned. Why? Because we have ALL broken His Law and sinned. (This is the crux of "Grace" and Salvation" and Christ's Love -- that we become declared innocent AND perfect in the Blood of Christ.)

When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony. A

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with? You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-19   16:07:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: Liberator (#160)

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He?

If letting things "slide" is your impression, it's an incorrect one and shows your mindset is anchored to the idea that only two states are possible, forgiven and unforgiven, and that is all God cares about. Indeed, that's clear from your other writings and certainly is the Christian doctrine. But under the Newton model, it's really about growth, and if God simply lets things "slide", then there's no growth. As I have emphasized a few times there **IS** accountability in the Newton model.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"?

In a word, no. Because it's about growth. You are fixated on the thought that forgiveness must be a tenant of any spirit model. It seems you cannot see beyond that / more than that. In essense, you see fault in the Newton model because of the incompatibilities it has with the fundamental doctrine you are anchored to.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

... The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

You say the rules are clear, and yet you did say in another post that the Bible is too deep for anyone to understand. Contradiction?

As for the "reward" for faith and loyalty. Is that the reason Christians follow Jesus? So they can get a "reward" from God for being "loyal"? Isn't that a bit.... wrong somehow, in the sense that it's almost a monetary payback? Admittedly, under the Newton model we are rewarded, but with growth. I guess it's a case of our rewarding ourselves for our perseverance and lifelong choices, rather than God rewarding us. As we do well, we grow well.

As for what the "finish line" is, as far as I can tell, it is, ultimately, rejoining God, which is pretty much the same as what Christianity says so there's no conflict there. But isn't it unfair of you to cite the mysteriousness of the full path of the Newton model when you yourself stated that the Bible is beyond complete understanding? Why is it then so bad that the Newton model is beyond complete understanding? Under Christianity, you die and bamm... your there with God. All done for the rest of eternity, no more learning is required. Under Newton, not so fast... it's a far, far, far, longer road. Does it sound so absurd that God might want us to actually grow?

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment.

You are fixated on the belief that ultimate "judgement" must occur. As long as your mind has sworn loyalty to that belief, then yes you will certainly not ever see sense in the Newton model.

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. There are many other points that favor the Newton model (though I don't consider such advantages proof Newton is correct).

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous.

That is indeed your perception.

Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

Again, it's about growth, not justice. Though justice can help facilitate growth. Under Newton, justice is a means of growth. Under Christianity, not so much. In fact, perhaps not at all. Justice is instead, once served, the end of the line, one way or the other.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

Oh, okay. We have them down here and they are a popular model slightly higher than an basic Aveo go-kart, which is a glamorized Spark which almost *IS* a go-kart. If you know those models. Are they still making Chevettes in the US?

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

Wow. I could say a lot. But I guess I already have. As for Newton's Atheist past, my first thought is of St. Paul who was certainly worse than an atheist, so I'll return to you that parallel. As for the love in the Newton model.... it sure seems to me Newton wins that contest hands down.

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony.

I take issue with the claim of witnesses. Unless they've been (quite ironically) reincarnated, the witnesses you refer to are dead, and so cannot be cross examined and so on. What you have are ancient written claims of accounts. By contrast, Newton has witnesses in the form of currently living people who have had past life recall. You may very well have contemporary accounts of miracles accredited to Christian faith. However, those can in fact potentially be explained under the Newton model. By contrast, the Christian explanation for evidence of Newton's model seems to rest on demons weaving a long lasting web of lies. Ultimately, I can't rule that out. But on the other hand, I suggest it's not possible to rule it out for any belief. Is it possible to rule out Christianity as having a similar deceptive source?

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Indeed I have. Thank you. You have also.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with?

A very good and fair question.

One reason to discount Christianity is the same argument atheists put forth. A lack of fairness. The idea that an 8 year old child that dies going on to spend eternity in hell because he never heard a Christian gospel is, on it's face, a difficult concept to stomach. Some people live to old age, others die quite young. Some grow up in Christian homes, others never having a chance to consider it as a means to salvation. Yes, there is the standard response to atheists who raise this objection, but in the end, Liberator, that paperwork, bureaucratic divine legalese explanation does not save the 8 year old from eternal damnation.

So I ask you, is that the best God can do? Under Christian rules, the answer is "yes". That is the best our all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise God can do.

Well, under Newton, we have a different answer, and that answer is "no". God can do far better. Far, far, better. And I believe He does do better.

You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

This question is unfair. Never have I considered Newton to be on target "without question". I've been fielding all questions about Newton I can possibly find, from yourself and others.

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Indeed, we are, unsurprisingly, both firmly set in our views. But being challenged is always a good thing nonetheless.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Vicomte13 (#158)

Both your replies seem to show miracles as a basis of belief in an associated theology. As I stated but perhaps not strongly enough, under the Newton model I recognize, supernatural miracles can occur even if a person they are credited to harbors inaccurate theology. In fact, even under the Christian model, would one suppose than every Christian that a miracle is credited to has a perfect understanding of God? I don't think any Christian scholar would suggest that perfect theological understanding is a requirement to be able to successfully invoke the power of God. So the next question is, to what degree could someone be inaccurate in his understanding of God and still invoke this kind of supernatural favor?

I guess I see that as the Achilles heel in your argument. Miracles are not certain proof of theological accuracy. And as I've stated a few times, under the Newton model, supernatural events (miracles) can occur within and without Christian context. I believe every one of us has at least a very tiny ability to supernaturally affect the world around us. It's why prayer can work.

In Newton terms, Christianity is a good faith because it espouses pretty much all the same values of love, patience, compassion and so on that the Newton model does. And Newton agrees with Christianity that those are the important things in life, not miracles.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: Pinguinite (#162) (Edited)

But Pinguinite, I have never spoken of theological accuracy. What I am saying is that the miracles prove the existence of God.

I then observe the nature of the actual miracles that exist in the real world in tangible enough format that they can be scientifically studied. These things DO exist, and they are studied.

I contrast this with CLAIMS of miracle, which may be true or not true, but which cannot convince me unless I experience them myself. To make a persuasive argument to me, you have to show me a thing I can study, not an idea that could be a lie.

These things do exist, and they have been studied. I note that the miracles that actually exist are almost entirely Christian in content. The Shroud of Turin is Jesus' burial cloth, the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle is a piece of human heart tissue and blood...same blood as on the Shroud. Incorrupt bodies of saints exist, undecayed after all these years. And of course the Lourdes miracles happen in the here and now, under the eyes of modern medicine.

These miracles demonstrate God's power, and demonstrate that God is at least willing to perform miracles within the Christian religion (and more specifically, the Catholic religion). That means that however objectionable to other humans that particular religion may be, evidently God is not so offended as to deny it miracles. That's one prong of observation.

The other is the fact that there are NOT any similar concrete physical examinable miracles in any OTHER religion except for a few Bhuddist incorrupt monks.

You're right that the presence of miracle in and of itself does not prove divine favor for a particular religion, and the absence of miracle, by itself, does not prove divine disfavor for a particular religion. But the juxtaposition of the fact that there ARE concrete examinable physical miracles in one religion only, and none in any of the others, actually DOES demonstrate a degree of divine favor for that one religion on which God has bestowed the miracles over the rest to which he has given none.

Put more strongly, the existence of forensically examinable miracles proves God. The monopoly of forensically examinable miracles in one single religion proves that God prefers that religion, or at least prefers to give that religion tangible proof of his existence, while leaving the rest without it.

There is no Achilles' Heel in that argument. It's really quite stark and strong. The inference is clear and cannot really be argued with. The only way to attack the argument effectively is to deny that the tangible forensically examinable miracles exist.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   21:20:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: Pinguinite (#149)

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Yes.

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   22:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Vicomte13 (#154)

What I have to say is intelligent and interesting.

Do you sense your own post as conceited and self-eccentric to create the rule and definitions that are about yourself as opposed to the world around us?

I do.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:13:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

Not true.

You discounted Beelzebub in your prayer for salvation.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:15:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: buckeroo (#165)

Nah. I see what I wrote as needling you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   22:16:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Vicomte13 (#167)

You are the devil, himself .... 'eh?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: buckeroo (#168)

He's not as good lookin'.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   22:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: Vicomte13 (#169)

You are normally long winded within and about BS. Now ... you are concerned about your "selfie" ... never shown on our channel.

You are fuckin' weird, dude.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

I wouldn't suggest that God is "required" to forgive or not forgive, though my question perhaps may have left me open for that interpretation.

I get your point about how God, as creator, has a **right** to hold himself to a lessor standard. But I wouldn't suggest he actually does that.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

That implies that we are nothing, that we have no value. While the humility of such a perception may be edifying in some way, I don't think it's true. Under the Newton model, it's not true. The offense is indeed against us, I say.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Certainly this is a virtuous position for one to take. Though it's not to say that we should leave ourselves open to injury repeatedly and predictably.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   23:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: Pinguinite (#171)

That implies that we are nothing, that we have no value

I don't see it that way. It's how our legal system works too, at least for criminal law. If someone assaults you, you are to take no revenge or seek to equalize things. Instead the person is tried for what they did, assaulting someone, and you get no recompense.

Though it's not to say that we should leave ourselves open to injury repeatedly and predictably.

Certainly not

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   23:40:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

have never spoken of theological accuracy.

Proof you ignore gods word and substitute your lizard delusions for scripture.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:52:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

contrast this with CLAIMS of miracle

Me too. Your claims are delusional and silly. I'm thinking you bumbped your head and haulcenated.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:53:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: A K A Stone (#174)

Proof you ignore gods word and substitute your lizard delusions for scripture.

I don't ignore God's word. I deny that the Bible is "God's Word" in the sense that you believe it is. You've made an idol out of it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   9:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: A K A Stone (#175)

Me too. Your claims are delusional and silly.

They have the virtue of being true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   9:49:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

But Pinguinite, I have never spoken of theological accuracy.

It seems to me you have, when you stated:

The data of the miracles, taken as a set, favors the study of the Christian religion, because when nature goes haywire and produces a miracle, it does so conveying Christian data.

What I am saying is that the miracles prove the existence of God.

I would disagree. If the year were 1600, and someone walked up to you with a beach ball saying it was God, and then turned on a flashlight to show a miracle, would that prove the beach ball was God? The science of the day would not be able to explain a flashlight, so by your standard, it would constitute a miracle.

Science is, today, still an expanding field and just because an apparent miracle can't be explained by today's science, it may be explained tomorrow.

My own personal theory on God (a theory not to be accredited to Newton) is that the spirit world exists as a dimension outside and independent of earth's universe. Souls' as immortal entities, may well violate the laws of conservation of energy. But if we, as souls, are from a dimension outside of our big-bang/ earth's dimension, then souls would not be said to violate the laws of conservation of energy. Rather, we'd likely say that the law doesn't apply to souls because the law only applies to this earthly dimension and the material resulting from the big bang, which would not include extra-dimenional souls or whatever extra-dimensional "material" souls are made of.

(And as an aside, this provides for me a much a much better explanation as to how/why people "have souls", as it has nothing to do with human DNA or human conception or birth, which Christianity, Judaism and Islam all implicitly assume. The idea that the biochemical event of conception can cause an immortal soul --provided the DNA is human and not something extremely similar such as chimpanzee-- to spring into existence is, at least on it's face, counter intuitive).

The upshot of this would be, I suggest, that the spirit world (God) may not be beyond the ability for science to eventually discover and quantify in some ways. This would mean that what you would quantify as a miracle today may not be such a miracle tomorrow. The line between science and spirituality may not be be so wide in the future. And I personally do not see any particular "religion" having any monopoly on access to God.

Again, my personal view, not to be ascribed to Newton.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: Biff Tannen (#172)

I don't see it that way. It's how our legal system works too, at least for criminal law. If someone assaults you, you are to take no revenge or seek to equalize things. Instead the person is tried for what they did, assaulting someone, and you get no recompense.

I would hardly find it reasonable to assume God is modeled off our current day criminal justice system. But even in our system, a person who committed an assault can be both prosecuted criminally for the crime as well as sued civilly for damages by the victim. If I infer correctly that you would not sue such a person based on your beliefs, which again have virtue, then that's fine. But I would still say an offense to you occurred.

But I do see the virtue in your point.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:47:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: Pinguinite (#178)

Ok. Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   10:47:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Stone, it is better **for you** if you can forgive even absent any apology. That doesn't mean you leave yourself open to harm again from such a person, but it does mean you don't harbor any ill-will.

If not forgiving someone means you constantly harbor anger then that simply hurts you. Especially if you maintain a formal database that gives you reason to be angry at 3/4's of the people you deal with on a daily basis. It's not the way to live.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Vicomte13 (#180)

Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

We all see things differently, of course. Best to you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Pinguinite (#181) (Edited)

Some things you can and should let go. I will use an extreme example, what if someone will less your child should you forgive them if they're not sorry about it or even if they are?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Pinguinite (#181)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Yes. When Jesus said forgive 70x7 I don't think the offenders repentance was part of it.

And how is Jesus towards you? He holds you in a state of forgiveness without a constant cycle of accounting and forgiving. It's the New Testament way, a state of grace - unmerited favor.

Go thou and do likewise.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:42:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: Pinguinite (#179)

My point there about the courts is that they are the offended party when a crime is committed, you aren't involved in the prosecution, judging and execution. I suspect, but don't know, that this is modelled on Judeo-Christian ways.

I don't know if I'd sue. There is something in the New Testament about this.

BTW, I'm not claiming great virtue here, just saying how I think it is.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:47:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: A K A Stone (#184)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   17:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: Pinguinite (#187)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   17:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: Vicomte13 (#176) (Edited)

The Catholic Church practices idoltry. You know it is true.

Saying gods word is a idol is a lie from hell. Your future home if you don't repent.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   8:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: Pinguinite (#187)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful

Just like oj and Obama right. Hillary too huh.

That disproved your Newton's law.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:01:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: Pinguinite (#187)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

That whole paragraph is silli and untrue. Every day reality should show you that what you wrote is so far from what we all witness every single day here on Earth.

There are evil people and they don't give a shit about right or wrong and never will. You're a bit gullible if you actually believe what you wrote.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: Pinguinite (#187) (Edited)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

Your comment is in error.

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Newton's is a silly model that doesn't work. Christ told the truth as recorded in the Bible.

You also left out the fact that anyone can choose to be saved. Or they can choose hell by rejecting Christ.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:12:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: A K A Stone (#192)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful

Just like oj and Obama right. Hillary too huh.

Perhaps under Christian model, (your version, at least) there is no hope for them, but under the Newton model, yes. That is correct.

You also left out the fact that anyone can choose to be saved. Or they can choose hell by rejecting Christ.

Except for those who went through their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel. Correct or no?

I can understand your own lack of patience with people. But when you say those people are already lost causes destined for hell, what you are doing is ascribing your own level of intolerance to God. But God is better than you. Better than me too.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: Vicomte13 (#188)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: A K A Stone (#189)

The Catholic Church practices idoltry. You know it is true.

Saying gods word is a idol is a lie from hell. Your future home if you don't repent.

Hell does not exist. There is Paradise/Gan Eden and Gehenna, and then there will be the City of God and the Lake of Fire and the Outer Darkness. That is what is actually IN the Scriptures. Hell does not exist outside of Christian imaginations.

The Catholic Church does not practice idolatry. You believe it does because the poorly educated leaders of your religion have taught you that it does. They have also taught you that the Bible speaks of Hell. Neither of those things are true.

Jesus is God's Word made flesh. Your religion says that the book is God's word. Your religion has elevated a book to the level of Jesus. That is idolatry. It's a book. Some of God's words are in the book, but the book is not The Word of God. To say that it is, which is what you have been taught by your ignorant preachers, is idolatry.

God will forgive your idolatry because you don't know any better and don't mean harm by it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: Pinguinite (#194)

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Necessarily long-winded response will be forthcoming to you tonight.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:33:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Pinguinite (#194) (Edited)

Actually, no. I'll start now.

I'll start here, with these expressions:

"To the horizon"; "to the indistinct"; "to the horizon past the horizon", "to a distant time", "to the unknown", "until we don't know", "to the haze where the sky meets the sea", "beyond the horizon".

Do you agree that all of those things say approximately the same thing?

Can you put in your own words what they say, what that concept is? Please take a moment and do so.

Now let me ask you: do any of those things mean "forever"?

No, they don't. "Until we don't know" is not the same thing as "forever", is it?

Those expressions are all accurate, even directly literal, translations of the words, in Greek and Hebrew that are used to express an idea.

If you translate that concept into English using the word "forever" for "to the horizon", and "forever and ever" for "to the horizon past the horizon", you have done irreparable damage to what the text actually says. You are taking a thing that is an unknown "until-we-don't-know-when" and turned it into an absolute "we know for certain that there is no end".

That second concept does not appear even one time anywhere in the Greek or Hebrew scriptures. Only the first concept does.

That is the first and most important point.

It is also the place where the Christian traditionalists will pull out their Strongs and their Concordances and start pounding the table and screaming that words that do not mean "forever and ever" actually DO mean that, because "it is written" in study aids, written by people who believe that "ha olam" must MEAN forever, as opposed to what it actually means "to the indistinct"/"to the horizon".

Granted, that's Hebrew, not Greek. The Greek word used to translate the Hebrew is different, but it must carry the Hebrew meaning if it is used to translate Hebrew.

We have translated "to the indistinct" as "forever", which means that "forever", in the Bible in English, never means literally "without end", it means "until we don't know when" - which, I think you will agree, is a TOTALLY different idea.

And THAT is the first, and worst problem with the Christian theology of Heaven and Hell forever and ever. Forever and ever never appears in the actual Scripture, not even one time. If you erase the English and read the literal, exact word in Hebrew (later translated into Greek) "To the indistinct" is all that is ever there.

And THAT changes everything, doesn't it?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Pinguinite (#138) (Edited)

Believing something out of fear is not something I see as a virtue God would respect or admire.

If you're like me, you probably have to allow certain thoughts to ruminate and marinate for a while...

I can't speak for anyone else on this matter...

Perspective:

As children, did we behave out of "fear"? Perhaps partially.
OR...Did we behave out of wanting to please our parents out of love and respect? Grandparents? Teachers? Coaches? Etal? AND eventually out of knowledge and wisdom?

Do we behave and follow civil law out of "fear"?
Again, partially. But do we do so out of love of peace, respect for the law and others, and out of love and respect even for ourselves?

You have eliminated "Love" and "Respect" out of this equation. The Creator of all things, our God, is a personal God. You've also removed this facet out of the equation as well.

"Fear". DO I fear Hell? Yes. Do I want to live in Heaven forever? Yes. Do I want to see God face-to-face and have Him tell me, "Well done my son."? ABSOLUTELY. That my friend IS the "Final Resolution" AND validation from our Ultimate Parent.

God did not create our universe, our earth, our lives with malice, hate, and evil; Look at the best of it. He gave us sustenance, companionship, a wondrous world and mind with which to marvel at it. (AND also the Free Will to figure out the Truth.)

Yes, what He did do is create a challenge for us, lives in which we would necessarily be "tested" for degree of obedience in accordance to our own Free Will. It may or may not seem "fair", but God's Purpose can't be questioned. This theme is repeated often in Scripture. Job didn't think it was very fair at its extreme in a cautionary tale. Until he did.

The Newton Model lacks any personal love, respect, and pleasing of our Father. In its post-mortal "purgatory" lies a sterile, impersonal vacuum of inconsequence for either Obedience OR Disobedience; Of neither Accountability; Reward nor Justice nor Judgement NOR "Resolution" or Validation upon "life-after-life".

Instead, the "graduate" of his mortal coil is greeted by non-judgmental Counselors or "coaches" who review the recently depart's life and more or less reassure him/her that "everybody makes mistakes"; That in the next life those mistakes *can* be amended now that he/she has learned exactly what they did wrong. (Yet unanswered: By what or whose standard is "wrong" or "right" amended and validated?)

I ask -- at its zenith, on the "Last Play of the Game" -- IS there a "perfect, sinless life"?? And in that case of achieving "perfection", what does the Newton Model say about crossing that "Finish Line"? (IS there one?)

All things must have a "Beginning" and End", an Alpha and Omega. The Newton Model also conspicuously lacks any, "In The Beginning" and thus far, there is no "End" (unless I've overlooked something).

I think He would better respect an honest disbeliever than a fake believer.

You've read Scripture. I think not. You are probably perceiving God's reaction as a friendly mortal foe. The truth is that neither have the respect of The Almighty; He may still love them, but He does not "respect" nor encourage the disobedient or the rebellious. The stakes are high.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." ~ Proverbs

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   12:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#187) (Edited)

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful.

Don't many already eventually understand the guilt of harming of others and repentance in this life?

But can the Newton Model explain whose law was broken to begin with, and understanding *why* such guilt or remorse would be "pre-loaded" into our conscience to begin with?

Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered.

I'm sorry -- this makes no sense a any level.

It is akin to believing that one MUST commit suicide in the *next life* as a virtual "Penance". I reckon this is "Justice" in the Newton Model. Do you realize what a horror that *should* be?

IF this atonement/penance goes on indefinitely, there no *last* innocent man if a past-life murderer require a next-life murderer.

And as souls, they will voluntarily do so [if a Murderer BE Murdered]....And again, it is something souls will freely choose ...Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

EDIT: With respect to "Growth", we are to grow is spirit and in Godly wisdom and understanding IN THIS ONE LIFE. This is it. One shot deal.

You keep on referring to "Growth". INTO WHAT? TO WHOM DOES THIS PROCESS PLEASE? TO WHAT END?

In the Christian Model, Jesus Christ has already paid the price for "Atonement" or "Penance". Of ALL sins. Moreover, WE may well be repentant in *this* life, but cannot make any atonement or "pay" for the log-jam of sins committed in life ourselves (I will address those who have not known Christ as well as children subsequently).

The Newton Model conspicuously eliminates the need for any God or Savior. If Man is his own Savior, Redeemer...no god is needed. Heaven and Hell are also eliminated. IS this resolution reasonable of an Almighty Creator? Why would God create man, his spirit, his soul -- only to abandon man when it came to resolution, to reason, to...keeping open the lines of personal communication to the Wisdom and Knowledge of Purpose IF we listen to Him?

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

Yes, that's right; one sin or ten-thousand sins STILL taints the Pure White of Heaven. There is no shade of gray area that is acceptable to God. ONLY through Christ are we pure.

One who sins big, aka "atrocities" -- IF truly repentant in his heart in the name of Christ -- IS forgiven (The thief on the cross for example). Jesus has picked up that tab. I ask -- what greater offer of love is there than that?

Those who "exact justice" instead of repenting or feeling remorse lack the spirit of the Lord and love in their heart. Something else has filled the void (evil, man's nature.)

As to "Punishment" -- God has said in Revelation:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

"JUDGED ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE." This could be construed to confer level or degree of Condemnation/Damnation. Nonetheless, God's Life, God's Rules.

It is our Free Will whether we are obedient or rebel; whether we embrace His wisdom and knowledge or create our own. It is by our own Free Will and sin that we are condemned as well. *We can NOT save ourselves.*

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Maybe psychologically, temporarily. Short term.

The Newton Model provides assurance that everything will turn out ok. But does it? And for the Big Picture, will it?

How sure, how convinced will you be in your deathbed of the Newton Model? Will you have *any* doubt that the very next face you see the second after you pass will be unnamed, unknown entities, Newtonian "Counselors"? OR, before the Throne of God? (just asking)

Can you be sure that those "Counselors" are merely cackling demons who've mislead you?

May you keep on searching for the truth, brutha.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   13:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



      .
      .
      .

Comments (200 - 248) not displayed.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com