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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 48515
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#169. To: buckeroo (#168)

He's not as good lookin'.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   22:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: Vicomte13 (#169)

You are normally long winded within and about BS. Now ... you are concerned about your "selfie" ... never shown on our channel.

You are fuckin' weird, dude.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

I wouldn't suggest that God is "required" to forgive or not forgive, though my question perhaps may have left me open for that interpretation.

I get your point about how God, as creator, has a **right** to hold himself to a lessor standard. But I wouldn't suggest he actually does that.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

That implies that we are nothing, that we have no value. While the humility of such a perception may be edifying in some way, I don't think it's true. Under the Newton model, it's not true. The offense is indeed against us, I say.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Certainly this is a virtuous position for one to take. Though it's not to say that we should leave ourselves open to injury repeatedly and predictably.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   23:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: Pinguinite (#171)

That implies that we are nothing, that we have no value

I don't see it that way. It's how our legal system works too, at least for criminal law. If someone assaults you, you are to take no revenge or seek to equalize things. Instead the person is tried for what they did, assaulting someone, and you get no recompense.

Though it's not to say that we should leave ourselves open to injury repeatedly and predictably.

Certainly not

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   23:40:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

have never spoken of theological accuracy.

Proof you ignore gods word and substitute your lizard delusions for scripture.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:52:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

contrast this with CLAIMS of miracle

Me too. Your claims are delusional and silly. I'm thinking you bumbped your head and haulcenated.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:53:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: A K A Stone (#174)

Proof you ignore gods word and substitute your lizard delusions for scripture.

I don't ignore God's word. I deny that the Bible is "God's Word" in the sense that you believe it is. You've made an idol out of it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   9:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: A K A Stone (#175)

Me too. Your claims are delusional and silly.

They have the virtue of being true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   9:49:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

But Pinguinite, I have never spoken of theological accuracy.

It seems to me you have, when you stated:

The data of the miracles, taken as a set, favors the study of the Christian religion, because when nature goes haywire and produces a miracle, it does so conveying Christian data.

What I am saying is that the miracles prove the existence of God.

I would disagree. If the year were 1600, and someone walked up to you with a beach ball saying it was God, and then turned on a flashlight to show a miracle, would that prove the beach ball was God? The science of the day would not be able to explain a flashlight, so by your standard, it would constitute a miracle.

Science is, today, still an expanding field and just because an apparent miracle can't be explained by today's science, it may be explained tomorrow.

My own personal theory on God (a theory not to be accredited to Newton) is that the spirit world exists as a dimension outside and independent of earth's universe. Souls' as immortal entities, may well violate the laws of conservation of energy. But if we, as souls, are from a dimension outside of our big-bang/ earth's dimension, then souls would not be said to violate the laws of conservation of energy. Rather, we'd likely say that the law doesn't apply to souls because the law only applies to this earthly dimension and the material resulting from the big bang, which would not include extra-dimenional souls or whatever extra-dimensional "material" souls are made of.

(And as an aside, this provides for me a much a much better explanation as to how/why people "have souls", as it has nothing to do with human DNA or human conception or birth, which Christianity, Judaism and Islam all implicitly assume. The idea that the biochemical event of conception can cause an immortal soul --provided the DNA is human and not something extremely similar such as chimpanzee-- to spring into existence is, at least on it's face, counter intuitive).

The upshot of this would be, I suggest, that the spirit world (God) may not be beyond the ability for science to eventually discover and quantify in some ways. This would mean that what you would quantify as a miracle today may not be such a miracle tomorrow. The line between science and spirituality may not be be so wide in the future. And I personally do not see any particular "religion" having any monopoly on access to God.

Again, my personal view, not to be ascribed to Newton.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: Biff Tannen (#172)

I don't see it that way. It's how our legal system works too, at least for criminal law. If someone assaults you, you are to take no revenge or seek to equalize things. Instead the person is tried for what they did, assaulting someone, and you get no recompense.

I would hardly find it reasonable to assume God is modeled off our current day criminal justice system. But even in our system, a person who committed an assault can be both prosecuted criminally for the crime as well as sued civilly for damages by the victim. If I infer correctly that you would not sue such a person based on your beliefs, which again have virtue, then that's fine. But I would still say an offense to you occurred.

But I do see the virtue in your point.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:47:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: Pinguinite (#178)

Ok. Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   10:47:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Stone, it is better **for you** if you can forgive even absent any apology. That doesn't mean you leave yourself open to harm again from such a person, but it does mean you don't harbor any ill-will.

If not forgiving someone means you constantly harbor anger then that simply hurts you. Especially if you maintain a formal database that gives you reason to be angry at 3/4's of the people you deal with on a daily basis. It's not the way to live.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Vicomte13 (#180)

Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

We all see things differently, of course. Best to you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Pinguinite (#181) (Edited)

Some things you can and should let go. I will use an extreme example, what if someone will less your child should you forgive them if they're not sorry about it or even if they are?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Pinguinite (#181)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Yes. When Jesus said forgive 70x7 I don't think the offenders repentance was part of it.

And how is Jesus towards you? He holds you in a state of forgiveness without a constant cycle of accounting and forgiving. It's the New Testament way, a state of grace - unmerited favor.

Go thou and do likewise.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:42:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: Pinguinite (#179)

My point there about the courts is that they are the offended party when a crime is committed, you aren't involved in the prosecution, judging and execution. I suspect, but don't know, that this is modelled on Judeo-Christian ways.

I don't know if I'd sue. There is something in the New Testament about this.

BTW, I'm not claiming great virtue here, just saying how I think it is.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:47:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: A K A Stone (#184)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   17:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: Pinguinite (#187)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   17:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: Vicomte13 (#176) (Edited)

The Catholic Church practices idoltry. You know it is true.

Saying gods word is a idol is a lie from hell. Your future home if you don't repent.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   8:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: Pinguinite (#187)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful

Just like oj and Obama right. Hillary too huh.

That disproved your Newton's law.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:01:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: Pinguinite (#187)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

That whole paragraph is silli and untrue. Every day reality should show you that what you wrote is so far from what we all witness every single day here on Earth.

There are evil people and they don't give a shit about right or wrong and never will. You're a bit gullible if you actually believe what you wrote.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: Pinguinite (#187) (Edited)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

Your comment is in error.

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Newton's is a silly model that doesn't work. Christ told the truth as recorded in the Bible.

You also left out the fact that anyone can choose to be saved. Or they can choose hell by rejecting Christ.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:12:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: A K A Stone (#192)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful

Just like oj and Obama right. Hillary too huh.

Perhaps under Christian model, (your version, at least) there is no hope for them, but under the Newton model, yes. That is correct.

You also left out the fact that anyone can choose to be saved. Or they can choose hell by rejecting Christ.

Except for those who went through their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel. Correct or no?

I can understand your own lack of patience with people. But when you say those people are already lost causes destined for hell, what you are doing is ascribing your own level of intolerance to God. But God is better than you. Better than me too.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: Vicomte13 (#188)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: A K A Stone (#189)

The Catholic Church practices idoltry. You know it is true.

Saying gods word is a idol is a lie from hell. Your future home if you don't repent.

Hell does not exist. There is Paradise/Gan Eden and Gehenna, and then there will be the City of God and the Lake of Fire and the Outer Darkness. That is what is actually IN the Scriptures. Hell does not exist outside of Christian imaginations.

The Catholic Church does not practice idolatry. You believe it does because the poorly educated leaders of your religion have taught you that it does. They have also taught you that the Bible speaks of Hell. Neither of those things are true.

Jesus is God's Word made flesh. Your religion says that the book is God's word. Your religion has elevated a book to the level of Jesus. That is idolatry. It's a book. Some of God's words are in the book, but the book is not The Word of God. To say that it is, which is what you have been taught by your ignorant preachers, is idolatry.

God will forgive your idolatry because you don't know any better and don't mean harm by it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: Pinguinite (#194)

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Necessarily long-winded response will be forthcoming to you tonight.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:33:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Pinguinite (#194) (Edited)

Actually, no. I'll start now.

I'll start here, with these expressions:

"To the horizon"; "to the indistinct"; "to the horizon past the horizon", "to a distant time", "to the unknown", "until we don't know", "to the haze where the sky meets the sea", "beyond the horizon".

Do you agree that all of those things say approximately the same thing?

Can you put in your own words what they say, what that concept is? Please take a moment and do so.

Now let me ask you: do any of those things mean "forever"?

No, they don't. "Until we don't know" is not the same thing as "forever", is it?

Those expressions are all accurate, even directly literal, translations of the words, in Greek and Hebrew that are used to express an idea.

If you translate that concept into English using the word "forever" for "to the horizon", and "forever and ever" for "to the horizon past the horizon", you have done irreparable damage to what the text actually says. You are taking a thing that is an unknown "until-we-don't-know-when" and turned it into an absolute "we know for certain that there is no end".

That second concept does not appear even one time anywhere in the Greek or Hebrew scriptures. Only the first concept does.

That is the first and most important point.

It is also the place where the Christian traditionalists will pull out their Strongs and their Concordances and start pounding the table and screaming that words that do not mean "forever and ever" actually DO mean that, because "it is written" in study aids, written by people who believe that "ha olam" must MEAN forever, as opposed to what it actually means "to the indistinct"/"to the horizon".

Granted, that's Hebrew, not Greek. The Greek word used to translate the Hebrew is different, but it must carry the Hebrew meaning if it is used to translate Hebrew.

We have translated "to the indistinct" as "forever", which means that "forever", in the Bible in English, never means literally "without end", it means "until we don't know when" - which, I think you will agree, is a TOTALLY different idea.

And THAT is the first, and worst problem with the Christian theology of Heaven and Hell forever and ever. Forever and ever never appears in the actual Scripture, not even one time. If you erase the English and read the literal, exact word in Hebrew (later translated into Greek) "To the indistinct" is all that is ever there.

And THAT changes everything, doesn't it?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Pinguinite (#138) (Edited)

Believing something out of fear is not something I see as a virtue God would respect or admire.

If you're like me, you probably have to allow certain thoughts to ruminate and marinate for a while...

I can't speak for anyone else on this matter...

Perspective:

As children, did we behave out of "fear"? Perhaps partially.
OR...Did we behave out of wanting to please our parents out of love and respect? Grandparents? Teachers? Coaches? Etal? AND eventually out of knowledge and wisdom?

Do we behave and follow civil law out of "fear"?
Again, partially. But do we do so out of love of peace, respect for the law and others, and out of love and respect even for ourselves?

You have eliminated "Love" and "Respect" out of this equation. The Creator of all things, our God, is a personal God. You've also removed this facet out of the equation as well.

"Fear". DO I fear Hell? Yes. Do I want to live in Heaven forever? Yes. Do I want to see God face-to-face and have Him tell me, "Well done my son."? ABSOLUTELY. That my friend IS the "Final Resolution" AND validation from our Ultimate Parent.

God did not create our universe, our earth, our lives with malice, hate, and evil; Look at the best of it. He gave us sustenance, companionship, a wondrous world and mind with which to marvel at it. (AND also the Free Will to figure out the Truth.)

Yes, what He did do is create a challenge for us, lives in which we would necessarily be "tested" for degree of obedience in accordance to our own Free Will. It may or may not seem "fair", but God's Purpose can't be questioned. This theme is repeated often in Scripture. Job didn't think it was very fair at its extreme in a cautionary tale. Until he did.

The Newton Model lacks any personal love, respect, and pleasing of our Father. In its post-mortal "purgatory" lies a sterile, impersonal vacuum of inconsequence for either Obedience OR Disobedience; Of neither Accountability; Reward nor Justice nor Judgement NOR "Resolution" or Validation upon "life-after-life".

Instead, the "graduate" of his mortal coil is greeted by non-judgmental Counselors or "coaches" who review the recently depart's life and more or less reassure him/her that "everybody makes mistakes"; That in the next life those mistakes *can* be amended now that he/she has learned exactly what they did wrong. (Yet unanswered: By what or whose standard is "wrong" or "right" amended and validated?)

I ask -- at its zenith, on the "Last Play of the Game" -- IS there a "perfect, sinless life"?? And in that case of achieving "perfection", what does the Newton Model say about crossing that "Finish Line"? (IS there one?)

All things must have a "Beginning" and End", an Alpha and Omega. The Newton Model also conspicuously lacks any, "In The Beginning" and thus far, there is no "End" (unless I've overlooked something).

I think He would better respect an honest disbeliever than a fake believer.

You've read Scripture. I think not. You are probably perceiving God's reaction as a friendly mortal foe. The truth is that neither have the respect of The Almighty; He may still love them, but He does not "respect" nor encourage the disobedient or the rebellious. The stakes are high.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." ~ Proverbs

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   12:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#187) (Edited)

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful.

Don't many already eventually understand the guilt of harming of others and repentance in this life?

But can the Newton Model explain whose law was broken to begin with, and understanding *why* such guilt or remorse would be "pre-loaded" into our conscience to begin with?

Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered.

I'm sorry -- this makes no sense a any level.

It is akin to believing that one MUST commit suicide in the *next life* as a virtual "Penance". I reckon this is "Justice" in the Newton Model. Do you realize what a horror that *should* be?

IF this atonement/penance goes on indefinitely, there no *last* innocent man if a past-life murderer require a next-life murderer.

And as souls, they will voluntarily do so [if a Murderer BE Murdered]....And again, it is something souls will freely choose ...Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

EDIT: With respect to "Growth", we are to grow is spirit and in Godly wisdom and understanding IN THIS ONE LIFE. This is it. One shot deal.

You keep on referring to "Growth". INTO WHAT? TO WHOM DOES THIS PROCESS PLEASE? TO WHAT END?

In the Christian Model, Jesus Christ has already paid the price for "Atonement" or "Penance". Of ALL sins. Moreover, WE may well be repentant in *this* life, but cannot make any atonement or "pay" for the log-jam of sins committed in life ourselves (I will address those who have not known Christ as well as children subsequently).

The Newton Model conspicuously eliminates the need for any God or Savior. If Man is his own Savior, Redeemer...no god is needed. Heaven and Hell are also eliminated. IS this resolution reasonable of an Almighty Creator? Why would God create man, his spirit, his soul -- only to abandon man when it came to resolution, to reason, to...keeping open the lines of personal communication to the Wisdom and Knowledge of Purpose IF we listen to Him?

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

Yes, that's right; one sin or ten-thousand sins STILL taints the Pure White of Heaven. There is no shade of gray area that is acceptable to God. ONLY through Christ are we pure.

One who sins big, aka "atrocities" -- IF truly repentant in his heart in the name of Christ -- IS forgiven (The thief on the cross for example). Jesus has picked up that tab. I ask -- what greater offer of love is there than that?

Those who "exact justice" instead of repenting or feeling remorse lack the spirit of the Lord and love in their heart. Something else has filled the void (evil, man's nature.)

As to "Punishment" -- God has said in Revelation:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

"JUDGED ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE." This could be construed to confer level or degree of Condemnation/Damnation. Nonetheless, God's Life, God's Rules.

It is our Free Will whether we are obedient or rebel; whether we embrace His wisdom and knowledge or create our own. It is by our own Free Will and sin that we are condemned as well. *We can NOT save ourselves.*

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Maybe psychologically, temporarily. Short term.

The Newton Model provides assurance that everything will turn out ok. But does it? And for the Big Picture, will it?

How sure, how convinced will you be in your deathbed of the Newton Model? Will you have *any* doubt that the very next face you see the second after you pass will be unnamed, unknown entities, Newtonian "Counselors"? OR, before the Throne of God? (just asking)

Can you be sure that those "Counselors" are merely cackling demons who've mislead you?

May you keep on searching for the truth, brutha.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   13:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Biff Tannen, A K A Stone (#185)

And how is Jesus towards you? He holds you in a state of forgiveness without a constant cycle of accounting and forgiving. It's the New Testament way, a state of grace - unmerited favor.

Go thou and do likewise.

Amen...

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   14:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: Pinguinite (#194)

So, given that "eternity" in Scripture means "to the indistinct" or "to a distant unknown time" as opposed to "forever and ever", we realize that there is "forever and ever" Hell in the Scriptures. That's the first thing.

The second is that there is no Hell at all in the Scriptures.

Oh yes, sure, the word appears in the English translations, where it is used to translate various different concepts and words. That smearing together of words and concepts is a Christian tradition. It is not what the text actually says.

What the text actually says, Old Testament first, is that the spirits of the dead go into Sheol, the underworld of the dead. In the Greek translation of the Hebrew, Sheol is rendered as Hades, and Hades is also the generic word used in the New Testament Greek.

This was translated, in English, with the Scandinavian word "Hell", but Hell has a context of disgrace and punishment in its original Scandinavian form. Hades/Sheol do not.

Jesus then tells us the rest. In his parable of the rich man and Lazarus, he describes the underworld as divided into two parts: a hot, parched place where the rich man suffers, and a nice place where Abraham dwells (in the parable) with his offspring. A black chasm separates the two.

Elsewhere, in several places, Jesus speaks of "fiery Gehenna", of worms and fire. The fires of Gehenna are said to burn on and on, but that does not mean that the person who goes into Gehenna burns there "forever". Remember, there is no "forever".

What Jesus actually says, in the parable of the unforgiving servant, is that those who forgive are forgiven by God, but those who don't are imprisoned by God in torment "until the last denarius is paid".

Some say that the debt can never be repaid, but those who say that are ignoring what God says elsewhere about debt. Recall that in his Israel, debt was relaxed after six years, and even slavery was released after 49 years. God's model for the remission of debt of sin, then, is forgiven and be forgiven, but if not perfectly forgiven, pay the debt of sin in the prison of Gehenna. God forgives sin, but he does so proportionally to the forgiveness of other men by the sinning man.

This is very much not the traditional Christian doctrine, but it is what Jesus actually SAYS in the text.

So, we know what Gehenna is, and we know that the rich man was there, and we know that Jesus spoke of the prison of torment as payment for the unforgiven sins. We also know that God set a limit on debt, and that God's laws for Israel were representative of God himself.

When Jesus died, he promised the supportive criminal dying alongside him that today he would be with him in Paradise. This is the Greek rendering of Gan Eden.

So, the dead do not go the Heaven at all, and there is no Hell either. The dead descend into Sheol, which is Hades, the underworld, and those whose sins are forgiven proceed into Gan Eden/Paradise. Abraham is there. Those with unforgiven sins, a debt to pay, proceed to Gehenna, a fiery parched place, where they remain "until the last penny is paid" - and perhaps there is a remission after a certain period at which point God considers the debt paid - this is modeled by his law of Jubilee.

Jewish tradition is that Gehenna is a maximum of one year. The Scripture doesn't say that, but at least the Jewish tradition recognizes that one is in Gehenna and then Gan Eden/Paradise, as Jesus said, as opposed to in Heaven (which is the sky) or in Hell - which is not in the Bible at all.

There is nothing eternal - meaning "forever" - about either Paradise or Gehenna. Rather, at the end of the world, they are emptied as the dead are resurrected and face final judgment.

The City of God comes down OUT of the Sky, and those who pass final judgment walk through the gates into the City of God to live with God "for the eon" or "for eons of eons" - again, an open-ended term that means "for the age" or "for ages of ages" - a long time - but not unbounded "forever". There is no "forever" in the Bible - only long periods of unknown length, which is DIFFERENT.

Those who FAIL judgment are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the "Second Death". The Scripture does not say that they burn there alive forever. Jesus said that the "dead" whose spirits have gone into Sheol are actually alive, but here, he speaks of death with finality.

It is clear that there is no coming back out of the Lake of Fire. It is not at all revealed that the "dead" there are "alive" somehow and burning. There is no Gehenna to go back to. The text does not definitively say those spirits are utterly destroyed and permanently cease to exist, but the inference for that is strong given Jesus' use of the word "death", and he rejection of the use of "death" to mean mere physical death - the merely physically dead are alive - their spirits are alive - they are "sleeping", not dead. But the word "dead" is final with the lake of Fire.

It is Christian tradition that imagines that those thrown into the lake of fire are not really dead either, but alive as bodies and spirits screaming in the fire for all eternity. That is nowhere in the text. It is made up. Utter destruction can be inferred by the word "death" - perpetual torture in fire cannot be inferred at all. It is imported with the Scandinavian word "Hell", which never appears in the Scripture either.

Finally, the text does not say that all sinners with any sin are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Actually, what Jesus says is that at final judgment, those with certain sins only (and presumably those who have not paid the debt in Gehenna), are thrown into the Lake of Fire or left in outer darkness. The list is repeated twice, with some variation, on the last two pages of Scripture. Killers, liars and the sexually immoral are on both lists. Cowards are on one list. "Dogs" are on another. Thieves are on neither list.

That is what is actually IN the Bible. No Hell at all, nobody going TO Heaven - for now, down into Hades, then afterwards, back up, and into the City of God, which comes down to earth. Nobody goes to Heaven. Heaven comes down at the end.

Forgiveness of sin by God is obtained by men forgiving other men their sins. Imperfect forgiveness leaves a debt which is paid in Gehenna, where one remains UNTIL the sin is paid. It can be inferred that God has a limit on endurance of debt, because he heavily imposes such limits in his Law for the Hebrews, but if not there is still the resurrection at the end of the world, and final judgment.

After final judgment, those who pass are alive "for eons" (not forever and ever - nothing in the Bible is forever and ever), while those who fail are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the Second Death, which can be inferred to be total destruction, but cannot be inferred to be a perpetual screaming living torment, for there is no "perpetual" anything in the Bible.

Obviously the Bible is in rather violent contradiction with Christian tradition pretty much across the board. The parts of the Bible that reveal these things are said by Jesus himself, so are the most authoritative words of all, and are the correct understanding.

No Heaven for men. No Hell at all. No perpetual or eternal anything. Temporary Gehenna for the payment of unforgiven sins, and temporary Paradise for those forgiven or without sin. Then final judgment and living for eons with God in his City, if passed, or thrown body and spirit into the Lake of Fire for the second death, which can be inferred is utter annihilation. Without the inference, we can say "We don't know", but eternal agony cannot be inferred from the text. There is SOME oblique evidence for utter destruction, but no evidence at all for agony forever, because death is not agony, and because there is no "forever" in the Bible.

Yes, this is what the Bible has always said. Yes, it is clear, if one reads the words of the Hebrew and Greek carefully. Yes, this means that billions of Christians are wrong about this, and their traditions are in error.

No, nobody is going to accept that. They will, instead, state that Hell is there, and that "to the indistinct" means "forever and ever". They will be wrong, but they will rely on consensus gentium and the weight of historical tradition to remain sure in their wrongness.

That's what the Greek says.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   18:46:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Briefly, two points:

First: Let's say it doesn't say 'forever'. That doesn't mean it's NOT forever, as you claim. It just means we don't fully know.

Second: New Testament thought says that man has no ability, or capacity, to repay or make good for sin. That's why Jesus went to the cross, to pay that for us - that which we could not pay. So, to say that a certain amount of time or effort or anything by man will pay the debt of any sin is not right.

The new testament remedy for sin is the cross, and that's all.

So your thoughts need more thought.

But there is much worth considering in what you say. It will take some years to properly consider it all.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-22   23:55:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Does this mean forever? Most think so but it really kind of means 'for so long you don't need to think of an amount, just keep doing it.'

But that's forever, isn't it?

Things get strange when God talks to us about time. He doesn't dwell in a place with time and there aren't great ways to explain that to creatures who do dwell in time - which he created for us.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-23   9:12:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: Liberator (#198)

It may or may not seem "fair", but God's Purpose can't be questioned.

We absolutely can question what God's purpose is. I think you mean it cannot be challenged, which is fine. But under the Christian model, what is God's purpose? To glorify himself? What is the point of our own existence? Newton provides a better answer than Christianity does, in my view.

The Newton Model lacks any personal love, respect, and pleasing of our Father. In its post-mortal "purgatory" lies a sterile, impersonal vacuum of inconsequence for either Obedience OR Disobedience; Of neither Accountability; Reward nor Justice nor Judgement NOR "Resolution" or Validation upon "life-after-life".

I feel I've rebutted this perspective of yours many times. It seems we are failing to communicate, which is probably an unavoidable situation, given our differences.

(Yet unanswered: By what or whose standard is "wrong" or "right" amended and validated?)

I do agree that under the Newton model, this answer is much more complex than under the Christian model. But we as souls are more complex also.

All things must have a "Beginning" and End", an Alpha and Omega. The Newton Model also conspicuously lacks any, "In The Beginning" and thus far, there is no "End" (unless I've overlooked something).

There is no religious model that offers any beginning that I know of. The question of "Where did God come from?" has no answer, including in the Newton model. But we as souls do have a beginning under the Newton model, which makes more sense than the biochemical answer Christianity (and Judaism & Islam) offers. But proper understanding of an end is hardly a necessity in validating any faith, in my view.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   10:04:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: Liberator (#199)

Don't many already eventually understand the guilt of harming of others and repentance in this life?

We don't always understand such morality fully. Experience is the best teacher, and that is what earthly life gives us. Experience. It helps us grow. It's why earth exists. It why the universe exists. It's the reason for the big bang. The universe is a playground or gymnasium of sorts, created for us to grow. Under Newton, The universe has a pragmatic purpose. Under Christianity, not so much.

IF this atonement/penance goes on indefinitely, there no *last* innocent man if a past-life murderer require a next-life murderer.

Such issues are not a concern for us. There are few, if any, accidents in life. In spite of our free will, the significant people we encounter are nearly always by pre-arrangement. It is known in advance if a point in time were to come when murder would cease, and if so, an indebted soul would have alternate arrangements. Every life, every soul is unique, and infinitely so.

EDIT: With respect to "Growth", we are to grow is spirit and in Godly wisdom and understanding IN THIS ONE LIFE. This is it. One shot deal.

And is a single life long enough to make any meaningful progress in quashing vices and embellishing virtues & wisdom? Uncle Joe spent his whole life grumpy and died a grumpy, angry old man. He knew what he was and tried to change, but it was hard. Under the Newton model, Uncle Joe has much more time to change. Lots more time, as much as he needs. Under Christianity, yes, like you said, it's a one shot deal.

You keep on referring to "Growth". INTO WHAT? TO WHOM DOES THIS PROCESS PLEASE? TO WHAT END?

"Into what"? It's not a mutation or transformation. It's growth, into stronger, wiser and more powerful souls. To what end? That's not completely clear but it seems we would eventually rejoin God.

How sure, how convinced will you be in your deathbed of the Newton Model? Will you have *any* doubt that the very next face you see the second after you pass will be unnamed, unknown entities, Newtonian "Counselors"? OR, before the Throne of God? (just asking)

I don't know. On your death bed, can you predict what will be going trough your mind? Will you have any doubts about Christianity? If you answer "no", will that be because you fully anticipate that will be the case, or it is simply a way for you, today, to do your duty as a Christian to please God by demonstrating loyalty as you believe he has commanded?

In other words, would you be willing to lie to please God?

I can say that the Newton model does, for me, in academic terms, ring more true than Christianity, and I would claim to have experienced validation of it in my own personal life. If God is to punish me because my head knowledge or abstract degree of confidence in this single subject of religion is found unpleasing, then He will do so not because of what I believe, but because of what I am. And what I am, is honest.

Can you be sure that those "Counselors" are merely cackling demons who've mislead you?

No more than you can be convinced that demons have not misled you.

May you keep on searching for the truth, brutha.

The same to you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   10:48:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Thank you very much, Vic, for expounding.

I think I generally get the picture. Souls are not necessarily immortal, and in the end, souls that are condemned are permanently destroyed. It seems the rather antiquated Catholic concept of purgatory is allowed for here, and all who are saved enter God's kingdom at the same time.

I am aware that Greek mythology predated Christianity, of course, and the Greeks did conquer the present middle east, even to present day India, hundreds of years before the time of Jesus, and I also know that cultures and beliefs both mix as peoples interact and mingle over the long term. So I wonder how much of what you stated might have origins in Greek mythology? I ask that both because some of your information is sourced in Greek writings, and it also somehow seems reminiscent of Greek mythology. I hope that suggestion isn't offensive.

I guess I could go more to the point by simply asking you why it is that this ancient writing should be considered accurate theology, and not other ancient writings such as Egyption mythology, Hinduism, Buddism and even other Greek mythological writings that depict a polytheistic universe? All of which predate Christianity. If the age of a writing is a deciding factor in it's authority, why not go back to even more ancient writings?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   11:06:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: Biff Tannen (#202)

First: Let's say it doesn't say 'forever'. That doesn't mean it's NOT forever, as you claim. It just means we don't fully know.

Second: New Testament thought says that man has no ability, or capacity, to repay or make good for sin. That's why Jesus went to the cross, to pay that for us - that which we could not pay. So, to say that a certain amount of time or effort or anything by man will pay the debt of any sin is not right.

The new testament remedy for sin is the cross, and that's all.

Actually "To a distant time", and "to the horizon past the horizon" means "not forever". God never promised Israel to the Jews "forever". He promised it to them "to a distant time". That "distant time" came when Jesus pronounced the doom on the vineyard.

"To a distant time" does not imply forever.

"Until the last penny is paid" means "not forever".

As far as the remedy for sin being the cross, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus never said that. Apostles seemed to say it, but Jesus said something very different. Jesus said that to be forgiven, you must forgive, and that if you do not, that God will not forgive you either, but if you do, God will forgive.

Jesus is God. Paul is not. They are in conflict. Jesus trumps.

You need to understand the hierarchy of divine authority much more clearly. You have placed the Bible at the top. Wrong. God is at the top, and what God says directly in the Bible trumps the REST of the Bible, which is just men speaking under the inspiration of God. Where the Bible conflicts, and it does on this very matter, you have Jesus saying one thing, and men saying another thing. The men are to be disregarded, because Jesus is God..

That is the only proper way to read the Bible. Everything else - treating Paul's words as equal in authority to Jesus, is a direct defiance of God when God said from the sky "THIS is my beloved Son, listen to HIM." HE said that to be forgiven your sins by God, you must forgive the sins of others, otherwise you pay for those sins, for a time.

The remedy of other writers is the cross alone. No. The way that is to be properly read is that IF you understand what the Cross is, then you will understand that Jesus is Lord, and THEREFORE you will listen to HIM - and HE says that you are forgiven your sins ONLY IF you forgive others theirs. That's it. That's the ONE way that JESUS said you can be forgiven your sins - you MUST forgive.

The blood of Jesus is supposed to make you realize that you have to listen to Jesus. But if you think that the blood of Jesus removes your sins, without your having to actually OBEY Jesus when he says YOU WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN YOUR SINS if you don't forgive other men, then you're overruling Jesus with other parts of the Bible, treating the Bible itself as above Jesus, and lapsing into idolatry.

The Blood of Jesus will not forgive anybody's sins unless they LISTEN to Jesus and forgive others. Jesus said that, and THAT is the law. Paul can never override Jesus, not ever. Where Paul and Jesus contradicts, Paul is always wrong. The Bible is not the highest authority - it conflicts. Jesus WITHIN the BIble is the highest authority, because God within the Bible says so. So, the rest of the Bible is subordinate to Jesus in the Bible, and HE said that the only way to be forgiven sins is by forgiving them. Therefore that is the only way, and the Churches that says that the cross does it are wrong, and have always been wrong. Forgiveness is the only way, because Jesus said so, and jJesus is always 100% right by definition, because God said to listen to HIM.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   13:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: Biff Tannen (#203)

It means that you have to keep forgiving.

Unless one is a Biblical literalist, like a Young Earth Creationist who insists on the seven literal days of creation. Then it means that you must forgive others precisely 490 times, and after that, no more.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   13:27:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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