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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 48508
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#146. To: Liberator (#144)

Discussions taken to "excess" make for among the best and most interesting threads.

In my opinion what kills a forum: Willful Ignorance. Same ol' same ol'. Fear of engagement. Off-handed personal ridicule and contempt of theories.

You asked "why should the "obsession" or extreme interest any OTHER subject of discussion on a forum be "stopped" or curtailed? "

Isn't it obvious in my honest opinion? --- that nothing kills a forum like LF faster than religious discussions taken to an excess of animosity, or of personal remarks?

Granted, --- that hasn't happened yet on this thread, and may not happen at all... I'm just saying that it does happen all too often.

Your inference that I have a "Willful Ignorance, a fear of engagement", --- or that I'm attempting "Off-handed personal ridicule and contempt of theories" is a good example of how this type of discussion starts to slip into excess..

My comments to Vic were made to agree with some of HIS theories, --- not to insult or denigrate any you hold.. ---- Nor do I ridicule religious people, --- I'm agnostic (I simply don't know), --- I'm not an atheist (one who denies the existence of god)...

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-18   9:24:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Vicomte13 (#141)

there are conservatives like you, of a more libertarian bent, who find religion to be a complete waste of time. But more conservatives think that it's important, and so it is, in conservative politics.

Because I'm a constitutionalist/libertarian, and an agnostic, your idea that I find religion "a waste of time" baffles me, as I've never indicated anything like that belief..

Although thinking back 68 years ago, I may have said something like that to Father Riser, the young priest trying to Confirm me as a Catholic, and failing, (tho we didn't tell that to my mother). ;-)

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-18   9:50:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: tpaine (#147)

Because I'm a constitutionalist/libertarian, and an agnostic, your idea that I find religion "a waste of time" baffles me, as I've never indicated anything like that belief..

Although thinking back 68 years ago, I may have said something like that to Father Riser, the young priest trying to Confirm me as a Catholic, and failing, (tho we didn't tell that to my mother). ;-)

I may have been projecting. I think that religion is a waste of time unless it's true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   13:53:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: All (#138)

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model. When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

(PS: looking it up, I see it's "seventy times seven" not "seven times seventy-seven").

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-18   20:13:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Pinguinite (#149)

I hold to a different model, one that I believe is what the Scriptures properly parsed for authority in their original languages actually say.

I hesitate because I anticipate the anger of Christians who believe their various traditions. Each of the traditions has a basis in Scripture, but I think the interpretations err in that they do not respect the proper hierarchy of authorities, and they rely on mistranslated terms and traditions that have risen up around them. What the Scriptures actually SAY in the original languages is quite a bit different. I don't believe the Christian traditions - I believe they err in important ways. I do believe the literal read of the original languages with respect to the proper authorities.

I will write it out if you're actually interested in hearing iit. If you really don't care, then I'd rather not go to the effort, both because it is not a short exposition, and because I'd rather not get shit on by angry co-religionists.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   21:39:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Vicomte13, Pinguinite (#150)

I will write it out if you're actually interested in hearing iit .

Get with the program dude; you are long-winded and really don't care about the objectives of the discussion, tyme after tyme.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-18   21:45:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: buckeroo (#151)

Exhibit A.

Buckeroo is not interested in it.

If Pinquinite is, I will write it out. Otherwise, I'm fine to leave it be.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   21:52:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Vicomte13 (#152)

You just don't fuckin' care, dude. Do you post on Huffington Post, too?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-18   22:06:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: buckeroo (#153)

What I have to say is intelligent and interesting. I do care enough, sometimes, to get permission before I launch. I’m figuring here that Pinguinite is interest d enough in the subject, and intrigued enough to authorize me to proceed, and then I will, and what will flow from my keyboard will be interesting and provocative. It usually is. I don’t write on Huffington Post. Used to write on FreeRepublic, until they banned me for criticizing H W Bush, whom of course they were themselves criticizing soon enough. I’m usually about two years ahead of the trend line, which means you can learn a lot from me once you get past my smug arrogance. I post nowhere but here and, rarely, on Christian Forums, so really I’m a Liberty’s Flame special feature. For those wishing to get the wisdom and wit of the 13th Vicomte of somewhere obscure in France, Liberty’s Flame is just about the exclusive source. Thanks for asking!

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   22:29:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: Vicomte13 (#150)

I hesitate because I anticipate the anger of Christians who believe their various traditions.

I can speak for myself, and I believe also for Liberator, in saying no anger or ridicule will be forthcoming from us. While I have referred to one of your recent perspectives as "hogwash" not long ago, that was my honest perception. And whatever I consider your view point to be, that's a very different thing from how I perceive you. I do wish you the very best, no matter our differences.

Each of the traditions has a basis in Scripture, but I think the interpretations err in that they do not respect the proper hierarchy of authorities, and they rely on mistranslated terms and traditions that have risen up around them. What the Scriptures actually SAY in the original languages is quite a bit different. I don't believe the Christian traditions - I believe they err in important ways. I do believe the literal read of the original languages with respect to the proper authorities.

I guess I would respond by saying that I'm less interested in ancient writings than I would be of something with more tangible evidence of truth. With Newton, we have claims of past life recall. Most of them can't be substantiated, but a very few are (though only one need be substantiated to upset the apple cart) Combine that with what I consider reasonable logic about our existence and everything just falls into place very well.

But back to what original Hebrew meant.... would you have any more reason to hold that to be truth than you would original Egyptian hieroglyphs about Osiris, Set and their family of gods? Or the original writings of Budda, or perhaps teachings of the Greek gods as originally decyphered by oracles of the day? What makes the ancient writings of the Israeli's special and gives them the trademark of true divine origin?

Unless you can give that, then I'll honestly say that your time writing it for me would indeed likely be wasted, just as any detailed description or substantiation of Newton's depiction of life would likely be of no interest to you.

I will say that Buck is right about one thing. You are indeed longwinded. Many times as I scroll down through a comment, if it goes on and on, I know before reaching the bottom that it's yours, and I'm always right. You might consider putting some effort into condensing your views. Not for our sake but for yours. Unless you get some reward from being long winded, you may be better off spending some of that typing time doing something else. I offer that constructively.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-19   2:02:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: Pinguinite (#155)

The reason I know that there is God is multiple personal miracles and interactions with the divine, and the demonic. I recognize that this is as unverifiable by anybody else as are Near Death Experience claims.

In order to bridge that gap of demonstrability, I present the physical miracles that have been examined in the lab and extensively reported on: the Shroud, the Lanciano miracle, the incorrupt bodies, and the Lourdes healings. Because it is the details of these various artifacts that renders them miraculous, the miracles cannot be seen without indulging in extensive detail. Because the miracles prove something that people don't want proven, the facile objections need to be addressed.

All of that takes time.

What the miracles demonstrate is that there is an intelligent power above nature. The fact that all of the physically examinable miracles - not the claims of miracles, but the ones that can actually be - and that have been - touched, examined under electron microscopes, etc. - are overtly Christian in content, and there are no similar examinable miracles that demonstrate the truth of any OTHER religion, allow one to eliminate the need to consider all of the religions. They claim miracles, but they have nothing examinable. Christianity claims miracles, and has objects that are miracles. Thus, the miracles themselves are evidence for Christianity, while the lack of miracles in the other religions reduce them in relative authority.

The miracles are laden with informational content: they revolve around Jesus. So therefore, Jesus has to be examined. The only written contemporary sources that tell us about Jesus are the four Gospels, John's Revelation, and the first part of Acts. Therefore, that is where we have to concentrate our efforts.

What Jesus said is recorded in Greek, not English. Jesus never spoke of Hell. He spoke of Gehenna, and of Sheol/Hades. The word "forever" is a mistranslation of a Hebrew concept, and a misuse of a Greek concept that parallels the Hebrew, not the English.

Every aspect of this discussion collides with hundreds and even thousands of years of tradition, and each point has to be made with considerable precision. All of that takes time.

I've put in the time because, going back to the start: I've talked to God and experienced major miracles, so I know that the effort is worthwhile.

To express it in short, pithy form exceeds my ability as a writer. Especially given that each sentence of that short form will be vigorously attacked. To express it in the only form I know how is to be attacked.

I'm going to leave it be. The game is not worth the candle.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-19   6:39:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: Vicomte13 (#156)

Under the Newton model, miracles can happen independent of whether the person deemed to be the instigator is theologically accurate. There is a separation of spirituality and academic knowledge, such that it is not required that one have correct theological understanding of God to live a successful life in spiritual terms. This to me makes perfect sense as it makes one's intelligence a non-issue when it comes to "salvation", or, in the Newton equivalent, progression. If it were otherwise, it would potentially give supernatural favor to those who happen to be born with a higher intellectual ability over those with lessor intellectual ability, and that goes completely counter to basic "theo-logic".

The equivalent human context: Would parents only love and welcome a child who scored A's in a particular subject, say science, over another child who was only able to average "D's"? Would those "loving" parents be disappointed but none-the-less condemn that child to a life of punishment because of his performance in a single subject? Would they have no interest in how that child does in other subjects, and carry through with this permanent punishment/lack of reward even if this failing child exceeded the capabilities of the first child in other areas?

To me, the answer is clear, and it's to God's credit that our intellectual understanding of Him is of little, if any, importance, and this is consistent with the Newton model. Any religious belief system that broadcasts a message of "our belief system is the only way to enter God's presence" pretty much portrays God as being petty, in my view. If someone is able to perform miracles (and under the Newton model, they can occur) it is because of spiritual, not intellectual, strengths. And this goes hand in hand with the concept of the "soul" as being the bulk of our identity, not the physical human body or brain, which though defining part of what we are, does not change our spiritual form any more than, in physical context, changing out of a suit into cut-off jeans and torn undershirt changes who a person is. In that way, the human body is just a discardable shell, which again makes perfect sense, and renders the creation/evolution debate moot. Humans may well have descended from apes and ultimately worms, but even so, it nevertheless has zero impact on our value as children of God, because we are, in fact, not humans but "angels", as it were, that wear human shells for a season.

The end result is, in the Newton model, that the ability to perform supernatural miracles is not proof of theological accuracy about God.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-19   8:59:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: Pinguinite (#157)

Under the Newton model, miracles can happen independent of whether the person deemed to be the instigator is theologically accurate. There is a separation of spirituality and academic knowledge, such that it is not required that one have correct theological understanding of God to live a successful life in spiritual terms. This to me makes perfect sense as it makes one's intelligence a non-issue when it comes to "salvation", or, in the Newton equivalent, progression. If it were otherwise, it would potentially give supernatural favor to those who happen to be born with a higher intellectual ability over those with lessor intellectual ability, and that goes completely counter to basic "theo-logic".

That's fine as an intellectual construct, but if it is to be brought into reality, actual miracles would have to be studied scientifically, to demonstrate that they are not merely coincidences. The deep study of physical objects requires forensic science that itself requires a great deal of education and intelligence.

Certainly the miraculous object itself, and the perception of it by one who believes it is a miracle (or who sees the miraculous event as it happens), do not require any great intelligence or learning to comprehend, but for that object to be admitted by modern, scientifically-educated minds as really BEING miraculous does require a tremendous amount of effort - and even then, once the effort has been expended, the mind that does not want to accept the evidence can (and often does) simply dismiss it all out of hand.

So you're right: miracle does not require genius to experience or to believe. But to PROVE a miracle, that an object contains miraculous properties, one must be thoroughly versed in the laws of physics and in forensic science, such that one can examine the object and report those specific aspects of it that cannot exist under the standard theories as we understand them, and that don't have any likely scientific alternative explanation. Only when that effort has been expended can the skeptic be answered with science - that the object has been studied by science, and it is simply inexplicable - it cannot be, under the known laws of the universe, but there it is anyway.

Once one has assembled a set of such artifacts - they do exist, they have been studied - one can observe aspects of the set. The most salient fact that is obvious is that (almost) all of them are Christian in theological contenr.

So, nature itself, which formed these stunning artifacts, did so with a strong religious prejudice, apparently. There aren't any Muslim miracles like that, or Jewish, or Confucian, or Hindu. Sure, there are claims of miracles, but they don't stand up under scientific scrutiny. The set of those that do are almost entirely Christian.

The data of the miracles, taken as a set, favors the study of the Christian religion, because when nature goes haywire and produces a miracle, it does so conveying Christian data. Nature is biased towards Christianity, which means that if one wants to use the forensic of evidence of miracle as an aid to selecting what religion to study, one has to end up studying Christianity.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-19   12:35:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: Pinguinite (#157)

If someone is able to perform miracles (and under the Newton model, they can occur) it is because of spiritual, not intellectual, strengths.

That's a model. You start with a model.

I am starting with objects that actually ARE miracles that already exist, and confirming their miraculous nature through forensics. I am willing to examine any object or circumstance that claims to be a miracle - there are plenty of scientists who do study these things.

Of the objects that have been examined and pronounced scientifically inexplicable, all but a handful are Christian (the remainder are Bhuddist). The objects themselves are fraught with Christian theological content.

Therefore, starting with the physical and the forensics, nature shows the path to study first.

I don't start with an idea. I start with a sheet, a lump of tissue, a body or two, and proceed upward from there.

They are different starting points, yours and mine.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-19   12:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Pinguinite (#149)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

I apologize for not finishing up my Part 3 of response -- which would have/will included that Bible quote....

You're right -- I didn't construe your quote as anywhere near "mocking" or insulting; My initial impression was in chuckling to myself. I thought it was clever and conveyed in great humor. Yup, IOW, I "got it".

I'll be out of thought-sequence on Part 3, but may as well respond and expound on your thoughts about "forgiveness" as was taught by Jesus.

"Seventy-times seven" -- there are a few different ways to interpret it; One obviously is the degree and extent to which we should forgive our brothers (just as long as they are truly repentant).

Another is the numerology facet, which the Bible and Jesus often cited. The number 7 is the number of perfection and completeness. It is said (and discovered) as yet one more divine non-coincidence that life operates in cycles of seven (the perfect number chosen by God.)

(For example, in the book of Revelation there are seven churches, seven angels to the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpet plagues, seven thunders and the seven last plagues. The first resurrection of the dead takes place at the 7th trumpet, completing salvation for the Church. And of course, Micky Mantle wore #7 ;-)

But back on track -- IF as you say we, mankind, are to forgive as applied law (again, just as long as the offense and sin is NOT habitual and repentance is sincere), then it is what it is.

That said, should the rules, laws, and conditions for Mankind within the realm of our mortal, finite plane be applied to Almighty God in His Realm? I think that is the crucial distinction to consider here.

We are not The Final Judge and Arbiter of Sin and Justice; God set up the rules and laws -- and He was clear about the Finality of His Judgment. His "restrictive limit on forgiveness" is ultimately hinging on our own heart-felt repentance as well as whether we've accepted His Son, Jesus, in the very last act of "Forgiveness" by the only One who matters -- God.

Yes, man may be able to forgive one another for 70 Times 7...until Judgment Day, when the John 3:16 "Clause" kicks in.

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Yes, "limits" do mean "definitive". As do "Laws" in the strictest sense.

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He? It could be construed as a lack of discipline where the evil "students" get a Mulligan forever while the "holy" students are arguably bumped up into "Counselor" positions as a reward. Maybe it's just me -- it doesn't feel like "love"; it feels like an absentee parenting.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"? From my perspective, sorta like a substitute teacher or foster parent who is technically "there" and in charge, but is merely going through the motions until the "Lesson" may or may not be learned, *only* "Quizes" are given on life (NOT do or die "Tests"), and students/children "graduate" or become "adult" only if they feel motivated.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

The Christan God's "love" can be seen in nature in the sun, the water, the food, in nature. It's the tip of the iceberg of His Kingdom. That's not to say that man won't experience deep hardship and heartbreak in this life. For those who take the Narrow Path (yes, God doesn't sugar-coat it -- far more will not make it, but let's remember that that path is a matter of OUR own Free Will.)

The Christian God's love and promises are not only far more tangible than the Newton model, but reach deep into the heart and soul of those seeking Him. He speaks to those who speak to Him. The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Ping, I'm sorry -- I just don't see any of that "Everything works better". I realize you'll discount that as a blind eye or ignorance, but the Newton model seems like a Karmic system that dispenses no actual Justice, has no "Helm", no "Captain", and no real Destination.

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment. Yes, along with possible Damnation. But also...Possible Eternal Life with God in His Perfect Kingdom. (This account is described and confirmed by several sources in Scripture. Is there a "confirmed" source of Newtonian Afterlife?)

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. (That notion/belief still doesn't mean it's Model confirms what actually happens THE Second after we die.)

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model.

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous. Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

(Moreover, to clarify -- IF true "Justice" were to be meted out by God on Judgment Day, ALL mankind would be declared guilty and condemned. Why? Because we have ALL broken His Law and sinned. (This is the crux of "Grace" and Salvation" and Christ's Love -- that we become declared innocent AND perfect in the Blood of Christ.)

When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony. A

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with? You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-19   16:07:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: Liberator (#160)

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He?

If letting things "slide" is your impression, it's an incorrect one and shows your mindset is anchored to the idea that only two states are possible, forgiven and unforgiven, and that is all God cares about. Indeed, that's clear from your other writings and certainly is the Christian doctrine. But under the Newton model, it's really about growth, and if God simply lets things "slide", then there's no growth. As I have emphasized a few times there **IS** accountability in the Newton model.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"?

In a word, no. Because it's about growth. You are fixated on the thought that forgiveness must be a tenant of any spirit model. It seems you cannot see beyond that / more than that. In essense, you see fault in the Newton model because of the incompatibilities it has with the fundamental doctrine you are anchored to.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

... The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

You say the rules are clear, and yet you did say in another post that the Bible is too deep for anyone to understand. Contradiction?

As for the "reward" for faith and loyalty. Is that the reason Christians follow Jesus? So they can get a "reward" from God for being "loyal"? Isn't that a bit.... wrong somehow, in the sense that it's almost a monetary payback? Admittedly, under the Newton model we are rewarded, but with growth. I guess it's a case of our rewarding ourselves for our perseverance and lifelong choices, rather than God rewarding us. As we do well, we grow well.

As for what the "finish line" is, as far as I can tell, it is, ultimately, rejoining God, which is pretty much the same as what Christianity says so there's no conflict there. But isn't it unfair of you to cite the mysteriousness of the full path of the Newton model when you yourself stated that the Bible is beyond complete understanding? Why is it then so bad that the Newton model is beyond complete understanding? Under Christianity, you die and bamm... your there with God. All done for the rest of eternity, no more learning is required. Under Newton, not so fast... it's a far, far, far, longer road. Does it sound so absurd that God might want us to actually grow?

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment.

You are fixated on the belief that ultimate "judgement" must occur. As long as your mind has sworn loyalty to that belief, then yes you will certainly not ever see sense in the Newton model.

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. There are many other points that favor the Newton model (though I don't consider such advantages proof Newton is correct).

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous.

That is indeed your perception.

Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

Again, it's about growth, not justice. Though justice can help facilitate growth. Under Newton, justice is a means of growth. Under Christianity, not so much. In fact, perhaps not at all. Justice is instead, once served, the end of the line, one way or the other.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

Oh, okay. We have them down here and they are a popular model slightly higher than an basic Aveo go-kart, which is a glamorized Spark which almost *IS* a go-kart. If you know those models. Are they still making Chevettes in the US?

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

Wow. I could say a lot. But I guess I already have. As for Newton's Atheist past, my first thought is of St. Paul who was certainly worse than an atheist, so I'll return to you that parallel. As for the love in the Newton model.... it sure seems to me Newton wins that contest hands down.

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony.

I take issue with the claim of witnesses. Unless they've been (quite ironically) reincarnated, the witnesses you refer to are dead, and so cannot be cross examined and so on. What you have are ancient written claims of accounts. By contrast, Newton has witnesses in the form of currently living people who have had past life recall. You may very well have contemporary accounts of miracles accredited to Christian faith. However, those can in fact potentially be explained under the Newton model. By contrast, the Christian explanation for evidence of Newton's model seems to rest on demons weaving a long lasting web of lies. Ultimately, I can't rule that out. But on the other hand, I suggest it's not possible to rule it out for any belief. Is it possible to rule out Christianity as having a similar deceptive source?

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Indeed I have. Thank you. You have also.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with?

A very good and fair question.

One reason to discount Christianity is the same argument atheists put forth. A lack of fairness. The idea that an 8 year old child that dies going on to spend eternity in hell because he never heard a Christian gospel is, on it's face, a difficult concept to stomach. Some people live to old age, others die quite young. Some grow up in Christian homes, others never having a chance to consider it as a means to salvation. Yes, there is the standard response to atheists who raise this objection, but in the end, Liberator, that paperwork, bureaucratic divine legalese explanation does not save the 8 year old from eternal damnation.

So I ask you, is that the best God can do? Under Christian rules, the answer is "yes". That is the best our all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise God can do.

Well, under Newton, we have a different answer, and that answer is "no". God can do far better. Far, far, better. And I believe He does do better.

You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

This question is unfair. Never have I considered Newton to be on target "without question". I've been fielding all questions about Newton I can possibly find, from yourself and others.

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Indeed, we are, unsurprisingly, both firmly set in our views. But being challenged is always a good thing nonetheless.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Vicomte13 (#158)

Both your replies seem to show miracles as a basis of belief in an associated theology. As I stated but perhaps not strongly enough, under the Newton model I recognize, supernatural miracles can occur even if a person they are credited to harbors inaccurate theology. In fact, even under the Christian model, would one suppose than every Christian that a miracle is credited to has a perfect understanding of God? I don't think any Christian scholar would suggest that perfect theological understanding is a requirement to be able to successfully invoke the power of God. So the next question is, to what degree could someone be inaccurate in his understanding of God and still invoke this kind of supernatural favor?

I guess I see that as the Achilles heel in your argument. Miracles are not certain proof of theological accuracy. And as I've stated a few times, under the Newton model, supernatural events (miracles) can occur within and without Christian context. I believe every one of us has at least a very tiny ability to supernaturally affect the world around us. It's why prayer can work.

In Newton terms, Christianity is a good faith because it espouses pretty much all the same values of love, patience, compassion and so on that the Newton model does. And Newton agrees with Christianity that those are the important things in life, not miracles.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: Pinguinite (#162) (Edited)

But Pinguinite, I have never spoken of theological accuracy. What I am saying is that the miracles prove the existence of God.

I then observe the nature of the actual miracles that exist in the real world in tangible enough format that they can be scientifically studied. These things DO exist, and they are studied.

I contrast this with CLAIMS of miracle, which may be true or not true, but which cannot convince me unless I experience them myself. To make a persuasive argument to me, you have to show me a thing I can study, not an idea that could be a lie.

These things do exist, and they have been studied. I note that the miracles that actually exist are almost entirely Christian in content. The Shroud of Turin is Jesus' burial cloth, the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle is a piece of human heart tissue and blood...same blood as on the Shroud. Incorrupt bodies of saints exist, undecayed after all these years. And of course the Lourdes miracles happen in the here and now, under the eyes of modern medicine.

These miracles demonstrate God's power, and demonstrate that God is at least willing to perform miracles within the Christian religion (and more specifically, the Catholic religion). That means that however objectionable to other humans that particular religion may be, evidently God is not so offended as to deny it miracles. That's one prong of observation.

The other is the fact that there are NOT any similar concrete physical examinable miracles in any OTHER religion except for a few Bhuddist incorrupt monks.

You're right that the presence of miracle in and of itself does not prove divine favor for a particular religion, and the absence of miracle, by itself, does not prove divine disfavor for a particular religion. But the juxtaposition of the fact that there ARE concrete examinable physical miracles in one religion only, and none in any of the others, actually DOES demonstrate a degree of divine favor for that one religion on which God has bestowed the miracles over the rest to which he has given none.

Put more strongly, the existence of forensically examinable miracles proves God. The monopoly of forensically examinable miracles in one single religion proves that God prefers that religion, or at least prefers to give that religion tangible proof of his existence, while leaving the rest without it.

There is no Achilles' Heel in that argument. It's really quite stark and strong. The inference is clear and cannot really be argued with. The only way to attack the argument effectively is to deny that the tangible forensically examinable miracles exist.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   21:20:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: Pinguinite (#149)

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Yes.

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   22:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Vicomte13 (#154)

What I have to say is intelligent and interesting.

Do you sense your own post as conceited and self-eccentric to create the rule and definitions that are about yourself as opposed to the world around us?

I do.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:13:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

Not true.

You discounted Beelzebub in your prayer for salvation.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:15:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: buckeroo (#165)

Nah. I see what I wrote as needling you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   22:16:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Vicomte13 (#167)

You are the devil, himself .... 'eh?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: buckeroo (#168)

He's not as good lookin'.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   22:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: Vicomte13 (#169)

You are normally long winded within and about BS. Now ... you are concerned about your "selfie" ... never shown on our channel.

You are fuckin' weird, dude.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

I wouldn't suggest that God is "required" to forgive or not forgive, though my question perhaps may have left me open for that interpretation.

I get your point about how God, as creator, has a **right** to hold himself to a lessor standard. But I wouldn't suggest he actually does that.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

That implies that we are nothing, that we have no value. While the humility of such a perception may be edifying in some way, I don't think it's true. Under the Newton model, it's not true. The offense is indeed against us, I say.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Certainly this is a virtuous position for one to take. Though it's not to say that we should leave ourselves open to injury repeatedly and predictably.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   23:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: Pinguinite (#171)

That implies that we are nothing, that we have no value

I don't see it that way. It's how our legal system works too, at least for criminal law. If someone assaults you, you are to take no revenge or seek to equalize things. Instead the person is tried for what they did, assaulting someone, and you get no recompense.

Though it's not to say that we should leave ourselves open to injury repeatedly and predictably.

Certainly not

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   23:40:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

have never spoken of theological accuracy.

Proof you ignore gods word and substitute your lizard delusions for scripture.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:52:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

contrast this with CLAIMS of miracle

Me too. Your claims are delusional and silly. I'm thinking you bumbped your head and haulcenated.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:53:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: A K A Stone (#174)

Proof you ignore gods word and substitute your lizard delusions for scripture.

I don't ignore God's word. I deny that the Bible is "God's Word" in the sense that you believe it is. You've made an idol out of it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   9:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: A K A Stone (#175)

Me too. Your claims are delusional and silly.

They have the virtue of being true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   9:49:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: Vicomte13 (#163)

But Pinguinite, I have never spoken of theological accuracy.

It seems to me you have, when you stated:

The data of the miracles, taken as a set, favors the study of the Christian religion, because when nature goes haywire and produces a miracle, it does so conveying Christian data.

What I am saying is that the miracles prove the existence of God.

I would disagree. If the year were 1600, and someone walked up to you with a beach ball saying it was God, and then turned on a flashlight to show a miracle, would that prove the beach ball was God? The science of the day would not be able to explain a flashlight, so by your standard, it would constitute a miracle.

Science is, today, still an expanding field and just because an apparent miracle can't be explained by today's science, it may be explained tomorrow.

My own personal theory on God (a theory not to be accredited to Newton) is that the spirit world exists as a dimension outside and independent of earth's universe. Souls' as immortal entities, may well violate the laws of conservation of energy. But if we, as souls, are from a dimension outside of our big-bang/ earth's dimension, then souls would not be said to violate the laws of conservation of energy. Rather, we'd likely say that the law doesn't apply to souls because the law only applies to this earthly dimension and the material resulting from the big bang, which would not include extra-dimenional souls or whatever extra-dimensional "material" souls are made of.

(And as an aside, this provides for me a much a much better explanation as to how/why people "have souls", as it has nothing to do with human DNA or human conception or birth, which Christianity, Judaism and Islam all implicitly assume. The idea that the biochemical event of conception can cause an immortal soul --provided the DNA is human and not something extremely similar such as chimpanzee-- to spring into existence is, at least on it's face, counter intuitive).

The upshot of this would be, I suggest, that the spirit world (God) may not be beyond the ability for science to eventually discover and quantify in some ways. This would mean that what you would quantify as a miracle today may not be such a miracle tomorrow. The line between science and spirituality may not be be so wide in the future. And I personally do not see any particular "religion" having any monopoly on access to God.

Again, my personal view, not to be ascribed to Newton.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: Biff Tannen (#172)

I don't see it that way. It's how our legal system works too, at least for criminal law. If someone assaults you, you are to take no revenge or seek to equalize things. Instead the person is tried for what they did, assaulting someone, and you get no recompense.

I would hardly find it reasonable to assume God is modeled off our current day criminal justice system. But even in our system, a person who committed an assault can be both prosecuted criminally for the crime as well as sued civilly for damages by the victim. If I infer correctly that you would not sue such a person based on your beliefs, which again have virtue, then that's fine. But I would still say an offense to you occurred.

But I do see the virtue in your point.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:47:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: Pinguinite (#178)

Ok. Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   10:47:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Stone, it is better **for you** if you can forgive even absent any apology. That doesn't mean you leave yourself open to harm again from such a person, but it does mean you don't harbor any ill-will.

If not forgiving someone means you constantly harbor anger then that simply hurts you. Especially if you maintain a formal database that gives you reason to be angry at 3/4's of the people you deal with on a daily basis. It's not the way to live.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Vicomte13 (#180)

Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

We all see things differently, of course. Best to you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Pinguinite (#181) (Edited)

Some things you can and should let go. I will use an extreme example, what if someone will less your child should you forgive them if they're not sorry about it or even if they are?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Pinguinite (#181)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Yes. When Jesus said forgive 70x7 I don't think the offenders repentance was part of it.

And how is Jesus towards you? He holds you in a state of forgiveness without a constant cycle of accounting and forgiving. It's the New Testament way, a state of grace - unmerited favor.

Go thou and do likewise.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:42:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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