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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 48524
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#129. To: Liberator (#122)

If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are?

You directed to Vic, but I'll answer. Passages that state God gets angry & jealous. To me it's wholly contradictory to other passages about him being all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc.

I see those passages as "anthropomorphism", which is a literary technique of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human entity, in this case, God. When a respected leader tells his people that God is angry, it gives that leader great power to tell his people they must do some bidding, as people will act out of fear. So there is a very human political motive for ancients to propagate the idea that God can get angry, and it was certainly done in many, if not most or all other cultures throughout history.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   1:54:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Pinguinite, Vicomte13 (#129)

(If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are? )
You directed to Vic, but I'll answer. Passages that state God gets angry & jealous. To me it's wholly contradictory to other passages about him being all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc.

I see those passages as "anthropomorphism", which is a literary technique of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human entity, in this case, God.

I don't subscribe to the "contradictory" notion of God's "anger and jealousy"; It seems you've explained why Scripture describes this technique in your following quote of, "anthropomorphism".

Doesn't any parent run that same gamut of emotion as they watch their child grow up? After all, we are just extensions of God the Father. We may even know beforehand that our child WILL fall, but the child must learn. Then we pick him up.

God's "anger" and "jealousy"-- again, in human relate-able terms. Maybe this analogy works for you; Say your child has joined an evil, kooky cult and appears to be embracing it. One emotion might be repulsiveness, others anger, disappointment, and..."jealously" in the sense that you can't believe he/she would choose cultist-enslavement over freedom.

Back to the language used in scripture -- Why wouldn't God explain language so we could understand it in "human" context? Somewhat analogous -- Germans and French both have words for things that don't exists for the English equivalent and vice versa.

When a respected leader tells his people that God is angry, it gives that leader great power to tell his people they must do some bidding, as people will act out of fear. So there is a very human political motive for ancients to propagate the idea that God can get angry, and it was certainly done in many, if not most or all other cultures throughout history.

I'm not sure how your interpretation of an interpretation is construed as scriptural "error".

There IS such a thing as "righteous anger", no doubt. As far as any "bidding" that's done -- I assume from your perspective, "in the name of God" -- you're going to have to be more specific about just what "political motive" and action your refer to.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   11:26:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#128)

I guess I was taking an issue with Stone's statement about there being no death before the fall. I should have pinged him. It was a challenge on the notion of "no death" in this context, as on a cellular level, it's hard to imagine there being no death in a perfect world. Even eating food involves digestion of plants & fruits, both of which were either alive when consumed or died prior to consumption, either of which involves death.

Yes, I construed that same statement as having supported Stone's "no-death-before-the Fall."

Based on that claim, technology those plants Adam and Eve ate would have kept on living as they continued baring fruit, no?

I agree -- it IS hard to imagine a world in which death is no more. But that's exactly what we re told was the world before the Fall...and within the Kingdom of God after the First Death.

Hair and fingernails that never die. Does it stop growing then? Honestly, this just doesn't work. At least for me.

Hair follicles wouldn't have died; neither would have nail beds. "Death" = End of Regeneration.

Food for Thought: There is much evidence that Planet Earth pre-Flood was a MUCH different world. In that world, ALL living things grew to extreme size (perhaps because everything lived much longer.) The fossil record proves it. Scripture records also attest to a much longer human lifespan. For whatever reason(s) it seems the DNA of all life was re-calibrated after the Fall, then again, after the Great Flood.

I appreciate your honesty. I can't obviously convince you of things that might not work for you or for things of which you have doubts.

Sincere question: Do you apply the same sense of critical analysis and assessment of plausibility and authority for your current belief system?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   12:02:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Vicomte13 (#125)

When it comes to matters of God, it is much more complicated.

To speak of God is to speak of matters of life and death, of all of one's wealth, all law, all politics, everything: what one believes about God, and the intensity with which one believes it, determines all of those things.

I agree on all counts.

God's Laws and faith are interwoven into all facets of life...or rather should be.

Blessed are those whose "intensity" and hunger for faith and the word grows...before it's too late.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   12:04:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#130)

God's "anger" and "jealousy"-- again, in human relate-able terms. Maybe this analogy works for you; Say your child has joined an evil, kooky cult and appears to be embracing it. One emotion might be repulsiveness, others anger, disappointment, and..."jealously" in the sense that you can't believe he/she would choose cultist-enslavement over freedom.

But God is all knowing, so he would believe it, and even anticipate it. So why would it result in divine "anger".

Back to the language used in scripture -- Why wouldn't God explain language so we could understand it in "human" context? Somewhat analogous -- Germans and French both have words for things that don't exists for the English equivalent and vice versa.

Ah, but is not the Bible "truth"? Are you suggesting the Bible might convey an impression about God that is not, in fact, true, but somewhat short of that just so that we would "understand" something even though that which we then think we understand is, in fact, a misunderstanding?

If you take the position that the English language, due to it's limitations, cannot possibly capture the meaning of God's divine Word, then what you basically end up doing is aligning with Vicombe's position, probably, that the Bible is, to an extent, imperfect.

There IS such a thing as "righteous anger", no doubt. As far as any "bidding" that's done -- I assume from your perspective, "in the name of God" -- you're going to have to be more specific about just what "political motive" and action your refer to.

Political motives? That's easy. When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people. I understand it was Constantine that formally declared reincarnation a heresy. Certainly if people believe they only have one life to live, then they are much easier to control, as no one wants to go to hell for all eternity for disobeying the church, which became a partner to the state.

Well, you may find this notion of God capable of being angry (even "wrathful") and jealous reasonable in spite of His also having infinite wisdom, love & knowledge, but I do not, and it's one element that, for me, favors the Newton model of at least the Old Testament depiction of God, if not the contemporary Christian depiction.

Truly, under the Newton model, God has, in my opinion (if not outright objectively speaking) complete majesty. He has all of the wonders that Christianity claims he has, but without any of the shortcomings such as being capable of anger and jealousy. God is better complemented and revered as a higher standard than in the Judeo-Christian model.

It's my contention that the old testament is a collection of ancient writings that, rather than being divinely inspired, are instead a collection of highly refined writings that are ascribed divine origin status. That ascription has taken on a life of its own in the form of both the Jewish faith as well as, of course, the Christian faith which is an extension of it. Under the Newton model, everything works perfectly, frankly, in terms of divine love and patience, and our purpose. Christianity simply doesn't work perfectly, which which I'm sure you'll strongly disagree. But the bottom line is, under the Newton model, no one is left behind with the possible exception of those who choose to be left behind. And under Christianity, people can go to hell for all eternity because someone never shared the gospel with them when they had the chance to. On it's face.... that's a point scored for the Newton model.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   12:18:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone (#113)

One must say is that God almost never heals anybody, but that rarely, he does. Because that is the truth.

You and I can both look around and see that he doesn't do it, generally. That's why these things are called miracle. But when I look in the mirror, I see a living man who would be dead but for a direct divine intervention, a major healing miracle.

For what it's worth, I've always believe you and your your divine healing.

You're right in your assessment and definition of "miracle". And also to further examine God's Plan for you.

That said, your healing, of extension-of-life may also be construed as a analogous example of Jesus' healings, serving to remind you/us of lives that can and will be "healed" Forever.

Maybe one of your "missions" in this life has been to spread your story of divine healing.

Maybe some are too shy or fearing ridicule of their own "miracles"....OR battles with demonic entities. Many individual spiritual battles (and victories) are waged. (Few speak about them, perhaps because of reactions you elicit.)

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   12:19:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Liberator (#131)

I appreciate your honesty.

As I do yours.

I can't obviously convince you of things that might not work for you or for things of which you have doubts.

Again, we're both in identical boats, though not the same one, of course.

Sincere question: Do you apply the same sense of critical analysis and assessment of plausibility and authority for your current belief system?

I believe I do, yes. Absolutely.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   12:20:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Pinguinite (#133)

But God is all knowing, so he would believe it, and even anticipate it. So why would it result in divine "anger".

I'm obviously using *my* interpretation of language and sense of emotion as a descriptor. His "divine anger" -- the best I could describe it again is as a parent who sees a child willfully following a self-destructive course instead of a "sensible" course, despite *our* doing everything we could to make that course easy, safer, most rewarding, and the obvious best option.

Yes, even though God has divine knowledge of what *will* happen, He can, has, and will continue to be "angry" with mankind for the eventual willful self-destruction. *We should be reminded that *some* things shall remain "mysteries" according to Scripture, so mankind is NEVER going to receive nor find ALL the answers to this Universe OR of God's Purpose.

Ah, but is not the Bible "truth"? Are you suggesting the Bible might convey an impression about God that is not, in fact, true, but somewhat short of that just so that we would "understand" something even though that which we then think we understand is, in fact, a misunderstanding?

If you take the position that the English language, due to it's limitations, cannot possibly capture the meaning of God's divine Word, then what you basically end up doing is aligning with Vicombe's position, probably, that the Bible is, to an extent, imperfect.

I'd submit that many have and do indeed understand what God is saying. For them, The Word IS "perfect". It's a matter of tuning into the "right" frequency. This may explain why others "read the Bible cover-to-cover" yet still don't or can't understand it (or mis-understand) what God is saying. If one's heart and spirit isn't "open" to accepting the frequency at which God speaks/communicates, then no, one will not understand Him. (some DO so partially, then grow in understanding as the walls/blockage dissolve.)

Ping, I gave you *my* off the cuff interpretation/explanation for the limitations of some who have problems grasping The Almighty's meanings or conveyances.

Political motives? That's easy.

When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people. I understand it was Constantine that formally declared reincarnation a heresy. Certainly if people believe they only have one life to live, then they are much easier to control, as no one wants to go to hell for all eternity for disobeying the church, which became a partner to the state.

Is conveying the Word of God as a disciple/"spokesman" a matter of "leadership" OR coercion (as you infer)? Faith in God and heeding His Laws are all still a matter of Free Will, are they not? Jesus Christ and his disciples never coerced others into being Believers. And neither do legit "spokesmen" or Pastors who spread the Gospel and remind and lead the flock down the "narrow road".

With respect to "one life to live" (in this current physical shell anyway), is a notion and physical state is exactly what the entire Judeo-Christian faith is predicated upon, based on God's own Word. Whether you or anyone takes that word and authority to heart is a matter of Free Will -- yours, mine, everyone's.

With respect to Constantine...NOT who I'd consider a "Christian" leader.

"Fear of the Lord" is a GOOD thing. It is the start of all "wisdom".

Well, you may find this notion of God capable of being angry (even "wrathful") and jealous reasonable in spite of His also having infinite wisdom, love & knowledge, but I do not, and it's one element that, for me, favors the Newton model of at least the Old Testament depiction of God, if not the contemporary Christian depiction.

All a matter of personal opinion of course; yours and my Free Will to seek the truth then choose our respective path. I fully understand and accept the context of The Almighty's language and find no inconsistencies or weakness in his conveyance and intent.

Though the Newton model respects certain facets of OT text and law, it seems unable to grasp the subtleties of God's language, reason, purpose and law in OT text, bending misinterpretation and context as a result. (my impression of course.) Then again so does Roman Catholicism to a substantial degree.

Truly, under the Newton model, God has, in my opinion (if not outright objectively speaking) complete majesty. He has all of the wonders that Christianity claims he has, but without any of the shortcomings such as being capable of anger and jealousy. God is better complemented and revered as a higher standard than in the Judeo-Christian model.

Again, I don't see these traits of God as "shortcomings"; They are totally relate-able and understandable -- yes, even of The Almighty.

I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.

Q: Is it possible that the testimony of Newton's subjects (on which the entire Newton model is obviously based) *could* be contaminated by nefarious spiritual beings and methodical deception?

It's my contention that the old testament is a collection of ancient writings that, rather than being divinely inspired, are instead a collection of highly refined writings that are ascribed divine origin status. That ascription has taken on a life of its own in the form of both the Jewish faith as well as, of course, the Christian faith which is an extension of it. Under the Newton model, everything works perfectly, frankly, in terms of divine love and patience, and our purpose. Christianity simply doesn't work perfectly, which which I'm sure you'll strongly disagree. But the bottom line is, under the Newton model, no one is left behind with the possible exception of those who choose to be left behind. And under Christianity, people can go to hell for all eternity because someone never shared the gospel with them when they had the chance to. On it's face.... that's a point scored for the Newton model.

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

The Newton model may be akin to the parent who won't ever tell Johnny that driving close to the cliff might result in his car going over the cliff and sure death. The main problem with the Newton model is...Consequences -- are are none. There is no personal responsibility, no justice, no real resolution or Finish Line. No Heaven and no Hell. No such thing as "sin"; No real such thing as "Forever". And ALWAYS a second, third fourth, infinity of "chances" to "get it right". I don't know how that makes any sense and by what universal "justice" that works (and of course, by whose "Authority")

Justice necessitates that some are NOT rewarded for their willful (keyword here) disobedience, blindness, arrogance, sin, AND contempt of The Father. Reward are merit-based; Obedience is rewarded. The Reward for Eternal Life is but from Grace.

The Afterlife is Forever. Better be sure because there is no second chance.

(I'm sorry I must cut this short...)

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   13:39:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Liberator (#134)

That said, your healing, of extension-of-life may also be construed as a analogous example of Jesus' healings, serving to remind you/us of lives that can and will be "healed" Forever.

Maybe one of your "missions" in this life has been to spread your story of divine healing.

Maybe some are too shy or fearing ridicule of their own "miracles"....OR battles with demonic entities. Many individual spiritual battles (and victories) are waged. (Few speak about them, perhaps because of reactions you elicit.)

I don't think I was healed to become a teacher. In fact, God made me keep it a complete secret when it happened, on pain of it being reversed and I being paralyzed.

He did what he did for his reasons, and he didn't explain himself. I can give all sorts of explanations, but that would be me spinning a yarn to make sense of something momentous that happened.

The one thing that the incident did confirm in my mind is that I may be the luckiest human being alive. And caused me to consider the question of luck itself, of probabilities in a world of physical laws.

It was only later that God physically grabbed my arm and my face out of the air and spoke to me aloud. THAT was when I realized that the God of Nature who had made me more fortunate than a lottery winner, was certainly a thinking mind that can grab and catch and talk out loud.

During the gap of many years between the two incidents, I learned the physics and the natural sciences as thoroughly as I could. When the direct physical and verbal communication transformed me from a pantheist to a theist, I knew how to evaluate evidence scientifically, and to sort out testable claims from the untestable.

I sought out the miracles that anybody can look at specifically to be able to provide concrete scientific proof to anybody who needs fact-based evidence to be able to see the reality of God (properly defined).

I could be of particular help to those who would proclaim themselves scientists or scientifically minded, who would then say there is no proof, these things are unprovable. Well, actually there IS, and there is a great deal of wonder and miracle in the physical evidences.

I have met two people actually interested in that subject. Two.

Of course I have read the Scriptures, pored through them in fact, over and over and over. Not just the Christian ones - all of the major ones. I understand all of the world's major religions, and have read all of their primary texts. I focus on the Christian religion because the major miracles all specifically pertain to Christ in some manner. Therefore, I focus on him.

And this is where I run into the heavy seas with Christians. I start by focusing on Christ, and then expand out and look at the stuff said ABOUT Christ, or implied by Christ, in various traditions including the Catholic, and the written traditions of the Bible.

And when I do that, I find ripples of contradiction between what HE said and did, and what people who follow him say we are supposed to do.

I see whole religions based on these different ripples. And in each place where a religion cleaves off on a path that seems to resist or contradict something Jesus said directly, I view that as an error.

It's not my job to go out and tell everybody the errors in their religion. God did not tell me to go preach. I observe the error and note it, and move along.

The problem is that to mention the error is to be virulently attacked. To explain why it is an error is to be virulently attacked, mocked, etc. Because the errors are pretty obvious, to me anyway, they are not ameliorated by the personal attacks. Rather, the person attacking me looks to me to be further and further from God, and upholding a political viewpoint - organized religion being old politics.

The discomfort of being hectored becomes too great - it's like being barked at by a mean dog. At some point I just shrug my shoulders and walk away, and thank God that religion has had its fangs pulled out such that the various religions can no longer punish anybody for blasphemy, because their power to punish has been broken.

That's not because there is no God. It's because these religions that go berserk with rage when their own contradictions and errors are called into question, are not really following God, as proven by the fact that they resorted to violent acts in the past, and still resort to violent words in the present.

So, for example, when you asked for an example of an error in and from Scripture, I will give it to you. Now, you have to follow the entire train of thought, it makes a track change and you have to have the patience to listen all the way through and think about what it is that I am seeing. And then, if you're honest, you won't try to pretend that there is no contradiction or error, there very clearly is, by any use of the English language. You will then understand why it is that when I hear men bray at me that there is no contradiction or error, I first think that they are simply ignorant: they don't know the Scriptures so well and are taking that assertion on faith from some pastoral source.

But when shown the Scriptures, if the attack continues, then I am dealing with somebody who is wedded to a theological view and who will not honestly deal with the text before him.

Let me give you an example.

The word "all" appears in Scripture many times. Does "all" really mean ALL, does it mean "everybody"? This word "all", used to mean "every single person", is asserted to make a significant theological point. But does "all" really mean ALL?

Elsewhere in Scripture, "all" is used in a context where it could mean "everybody", but where other facts clearly indicated that, even though the text says "all", it cannot mean ALL.

This is an example of an "error" in Scripture. A thing that is written that is not literally true. One has to admit that, because it is obviously so.

Here is a sample passage: "And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."

That says that everybody in Jerusalem and the surrounding countryside went out to John the Baptist and were baptized. It's not ambiguous. It says ALL of Jerusalem. All does not mean "some", or "most". It means all.

It is not possible to read that sentence in a way that does not say that ALL of Jerusalem went out to be baptized by John. That is what it says.

Now, quite obviously we know that is not actually true. We know that all of the people of Jerusalem went out to be baptized by John. A lot did, but all did not.

The text says all did, and that is not true.

Is this an error? No. It's a hyperbole, a literally false statement that conveys a truth: a lot of people went out. Everybody? No. It SAYS everybody, but everybody did not go. (I shouldn't really need to point out all of the people of Jerusalem did not go out to John the Baptist. Pontius Pilate and the Roman army were in Jerusalem, as were the Sanhedrin and the High Priests, and Herod and his wife Herodias had a residence there also - none of these people went out to be baptized by John, obviously. Scripture there says "all", and it is not true.

So we know that the Scripture writers write using hyperbole, and therefore nobody can assert that every word must be taken literally, especially when taking a word literally creates a contradiction in logic or a contradiction with something else said.

Jesus spoke of children and said that the Kingdom of Heaven was made of children and those like children. Children have not fallen short of the Kingdom of God, according to Jesus.

Have, then, "all" sinned?

In a similar vein, Jesus lists the sins that will result in the Lake of Fire. He lists them twice. Many sins do not appear on that list. But James says that if you break one commandment you have broken them all. That would make a thief equal to a murderer, and both damned to the Lake of Fire, according to James. But according to Jesus, murderers are among those thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thieves are not on either of his lists. That is a contradiction. Break one break 'em all is very different from greater and lesser sins - and Jesus spoke quite consistently of greater and lesser sins, and he spoke of the lake of fire only for certain sins.

This is a contradiction in the Bible, and the contradiction carries forth into all of the different Christian denominations.

One can take the Pauline approach, ALL have sinned. (But remember the problem with the word "all", above.)

One can take the James approach, break one, break 'em all.

One can take John's approach, identifying mortal sins and other sins.

Or one can Jesus' approach of greater and lesser sin, with a list of sins that will get you the fire.

John is closest to Jesus, but not as specific. James and Paul are quite different from Jesus.

Different Churches have different preferences, and they fight about these things.

For me, there is no struggle at all. Jesus is the son of God. God said "Listen to HIM", therefore, what Jesus said is exactly right, and what Paul and James say, which differ, is to be ignored in this case. Jesus is right, and Paul and James are engaging in hyperbole to make a point, or they're just stating their opinions, and they're wrong (assuming Jesus is always right, which I do).

These things cannot be dismissed by hand waves that say they are not important: it is a fundamental difference between Christian religions. They cannot be dismissed as not being real: they are. And they cannot be rectified by saying they say the same thing: they clearly do not.

One must choose.

Now, experience has taught me that these issues, which have been litigated and relitigated among Christians of each successive generation for the past 2000 years (though never, to my knowledge, on precisely the same grounds as my own view), will not be resolved, and will soon enough result in people pounding the furniture and going purple-faced.

I don't like that sort of conflict - it never results in anything pleasant, and it never persuades anybody of anything, least of all me. So once it starts getting there, my tendency is to withdraw.

This thread and another is yet another example of this. Even people I like, when they start getting self-righteous with me, rapidly exhaust my patience. I talk about religion less and less, because I see the whole subject as a dying belief system. It is dying because all of the poison that has been poured into the garden.

This subject is everything. It needs to be treated with respect, and I myself need to be treated with respect if I am going to talk about it. When I am not, my tendency is to just shake the dust off my shoes and walk away. I have to do that quite a lot around here.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-13   13:57:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Liberator (#136)

When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people.

Is conveying the Word of God as a disciple/"spokesman" a matter of "leadership" OR coercion (as you infer)? Faith in God and heeding His Laws are all still a matter of Free Will, are they not? Jesus Christ and his disciples never coerced others into being Believers. And neither do legit "spokesmen" or Pastors who spread the Gospel and remind and lead the flock down the "narrow road".

I'm not speaking of properly appointed leaders. Rather, those who find themselves in positions of power and use it to further their own interests. Since you view Constantine as having been a non-Christian, he would be an excellent example.

Doesn't any parent run that same gamut of emotion as they watch their child grow up? After all, we are just extensions of God the Father. We may even know beforehand that our child WILL fall, but the child must learn. Then we pick him up.

All a matter of personal opinion of course; yours and my Free Will to seek the truth then choose our respective path. I fully understand and accept the context of The Almighty's language and find no inconsistencies or weakness in his conveyance and intent.

It seems clear you first accept the Bible as God's Word, and because of that, find no inconsistencies. But certainly, once you do accept that premise, you are **not allowed** to find any inconsistencies. Any perceptions of such will be automatically be categorized as something you are not wise enough to understand, in which case there is nothing anyone could point out about the Bible that would make you question it's divine origin.

To be clear, my position is not that God should not be believed. My position instead is that the Bible is not his divinely inspired word.

I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.

This compels me to ask a more fundamental question: Did God have any choice in the matter of spiritual law related to sin and redemption? In the "time before time" as it were, did God, knowing that the Christian model would see a majority of his children perish in eternal flame "sign off" on this model, or is it possible that He could have said, "no, I don't like this model. I prefer a model of reincarnation where I never have to send anyone into a lake of eternally fire".

Would you say that A) God had no such choice as he is/was restricted by his very nature, or B) He had a choice, and chose the one now known as Christianity where most of his children end up dying?

Personally, I think He had a choice, and I don't see why he would have chosen a system that works less well than one that works more well.

Q: Is it possible that the testimony of Newton's subjects (on which the entire Newton model is obviously based) *could* be contaminated by nefarious spiritual beings and methodical deception?

You've speculated on that before. Ultimately I can't prove the negative of saying this didn't happen. But if it did, would it be my fault for being suckered? What it comes down to is explaining each belief system in terms of the other's model. Under Christianity, "nefarious spiritual beings" would explain Newton's findings. And under Newton's model, Christianity has a largely human explanation for it's existence.

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

The Newton model may be akin to the parent who won't ever tell Johnny that driving close to the cliff might result in his car going over the cliff and sure death. The main problem with the Newton model is...Consequences -- are are none. There is no personal responsibility, no justice,

I take issue here. There certainly are consequences, which is part of the beauty of it. There absolutely is accountability.

no real resolution or Finish Line.

It's harder to see everything when us earthlings are so far down the totem pole of progression, but it seems there is a finish.

No Heaven and no Hell. No such thing as "sin"; No real such thing as "Forever". And ALWAYS a second, third fourth, infinity of "chances" to "get it right". I don't know how that makes any sense and by what universal "justice" that works (and of course, by whose "Authority")

"Get it right" is a mischaracterization, as it conotates more of a chance thing like you're doing some carnival contest of throwing rings to win a stuffed bear than an actual step in growth. Even when we fail, we learn.

Justice necessitates that some are NOT rewarded for their willful (keyword here) disobedience, blindness, arrogance, sin, AND contempt of The Father. Reward are merit-based; Obedience is rewarded. The Reward for Eternal Life is but from Grace.

In the Newton model, everything is 100% positive reinforcement, 0% negative reinforcement. Failing to grow is the punishment.

The Afterlife is Forever. Better be sure because there is no second chance.

Believing something out of fear is not something I see as a virtue God would respect or admire. I think He would better respect an honest disbeliever than a fake believer.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   15:49:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: A K A Stone (#38)

You can believe God is a liar.

Or I can observe that Time is a derivative function of state-change which progresses relative to E within the inertial frame(s) it is observed in.

And that God's inertial frame isn't yours! :-/

VxH  posted on  2018-06-14   20:12:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Vicomte13, Y'ALL (#137)

I talk about religion less and less, because I see the whole subject as a dying belief system. It is dying because all of the poison that has been poured into the garden.

This subject is everything. It needs to be treated with respect, and I myself need to be treated with respect if I am going to talk about it. When I am not, my tendency is to just shake the dust off my shoes and walk away.

Good idea Vic, stop writing about religion.. --- Actually, that would be excellent advice for anyone so obsessed. ---- Imho, nothing kills a forum like LF faster than religious discussions taken to excess

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-14   22:32:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: tpaine (#140)

Actually, that would be excellent advice for anyone so obsessed. ---- Imho, nothing kills a forum like LF faster than religious discussions taken to excess

There is very little in this world that is more useless than another man's religion.

Nevertheless, American politics are heavily driven by religious belief, in everything from aid to Israel to the perennial struggle over abortion. This site skews conservative, and American conservatives, by and large, have religious motivations as an important source of their political beliefs.

Sure, there are conservatives like you, of a more libertarian bent, who find religion to be a complete waste of time. But more conservatives think that it's important, and so it is, in conservative politics.

For me, for example - I have to support social welfare to a much greater degree than many other conservatives precisely because my God says so, and I know he exists.

You're right: when I speak of this, it largely ends the conversation - for those who don't believe, there's nothing to say. And for those Christians who believe differently, the reaction is pretty violent.

So, the conversation is killed, and nobody is persuaded to move off of his position. Yet there is value, I think, in seeing the degree of resolution of the parties.

There is no majority for any position. Everything requires coalitions, which means that people who are not interested in religion have to be in coalition with people who are to get anything done.

And so, tiresome as it is, it's probably good that on a conservative site like this, the range of opinion is expressed. If we're going to advance our common interests, we need to understand each other sufficiently that the "third rails" of our respective beliefs are not touched.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-15   8:17:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: Pinguinite (#138)

It seems clear you first accept the Bible as God's Word, and because of that, find no inconsistencies. But certainly, once you do accept that premise, you are **not allowed** to find any inconsistencies. Any perceptions of such will be automatically be categorized as something you are not wise enough to understand, in which case there is nothing anyone could point out about the Bible that would make you question it's divine origin.

You'd have to define your notion and context of "inconsistencies" for me. It seems that it means one thing for me, another for you -- not meant as a personal slight.

I can construe your perception of God's Word as:

1) "hypocritical",
2)"ambiguous",
3) "not clear enough",
4) "nonsensical"
5) "half-true/untrue".

We are indeed advised through the Bible that some "mysteries" would remain -- understanding the Bible fully is impossible; It's not about the lack of "wisdom". In fact we are told to be as "children". What does this tract mean to you?:

"Jesus called a little child to stand among them. 'Truly I tell you,' He said, 'unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.'" ~ Matthew 18:2-5 (Berean Study Bible)

When we are children (some of us), we do openly and fully and immediately accept the Bible as "God's Word" and Gospel "premise".

Eventually most of us enter into intermittent phases of independent critical thinking, whereby during that stage of examination we scrutinize the logic and evidence. I didn't understand the dynamics of Grace and reason for a "Savior until I was about 23 years old. MANY Christians go through this phase; Yes, we ARE "allowed" to think critically about the texts of Scripture....DO and HAVE.

For some people only a single sweep through Biblical claims and messaging is a thorough enough "examination" to analyze "inconsistencies", and determine/discern whether the Bible truly is "God's Word". For others it takes multiple sweeps and a critical examination before understanding the full text, connect dots and accepting Scripture as God's Word, inspired through man.

But this isn't just about reading comprehension, The Word must then be allowed it to permeate our mind, heart, and spirit. In your case, I assume you've gone through these same steps in completely accepting the Newton Model, although obviously there are far fewer steps, explanations, dynamics, and dot-connecting to consider.

To be clear, my position is not that God should not be believed. My position instead is that the Bible is not his divinely inspired word.

I may not agree but understand the reason for the cynicism, given man's record of lies and deception (usually in the name of personal power & profit). I see no evidence in this case. But I *do* see divine concepts, teachings, and truth.

With respect to maintaining the same train of thought and critiques, aren't Newton's hypnotized subjects men/women as well, perceived to be conveying a "divine" message of sorts? If that premise is accepted, then might Newton himself be considered to be the equivalent of the Biblical Prophets?

(btw, I have to break up your post into two different responses)

Those who most loudly PROMOTE Fake News are typically those most aggressively and ironically claim to support 'Freedom'.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-17   13:40:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Vicomte13 (#137)

I shall respond to your well thought-out, candid post. Thank you for your patience.

Those who most loudly PROMOTE Fake News are typically those most aggressively and ironically claim to support 'Freedom'.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-17   13:42:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: tpaine, Vicomte13, Y'ALL (#140) (Edited)

Good idea Vic, stop writing about religion.. --- Actually, that would be excellent advice for anyone so obsessed.

WHY again should "writing about religion" or sharing thoughts on faith and the Hereafter be a bad idea or be frowned upon?

There's no compulsion for you or anyone else to participate in its discussion.

If *you* lack the same passion or curiosity for exchanging thoughts about our Creator's Plan and Mission for us, no one is coercing you into its discussion, are they?

And btw -- why should the "obsession" or extreme interest any OTHER subject of discussion on a forum be "stopped" or curtailed?

Imho, nothing kills a forum like LF faster than religious discussions taken to excess

Discussions taken to "excess" make for among the best and most interesting threads.

In my opinion what kills a forum: Willful Ignorance. Same ol' same ol'. Fear of engagement. Off-handed personal ridicule and contempt of theories.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-17   14:31:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Pinguinite (#138)

("I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.")

This compels me to ask a more fundamental question:

Did God have any choice in the matter of spiritual law related to sin and redemption? In the "time before time" as it were, did God, knowing that the Christian model would see a majority of his children perish in eternal flame "sign off" on this model, or is it possible that He could have said, "no, I don't like this model. I prefer a model of reincarnation where I never have to send anyone into a lake of eternally fire".

Personally, I think He had a choice, and I don't see why he would have chosen a system that works less well than one

Really good question, worthy of legit contemplation from any thinking person -- believer or not. (btw, I liked the way you posed the theory and premise . i.e. "signing off on...")

It must be repeated that God loves us still as his children. His Son Jesus, a sinless God in the flesh, was sacrificed in our place to pave a direct path to God's Kingdom.

We must also be reminded that the source of evil and lies on this mortal plane is...Satan, Lucifer, The Evil One, etc.

No, He does not want anyone to perish in Hell-Fire or to be removed from His presence. Then again, through His Grace, The Father has given man an easy and clear path to Him, without ambiguity. But also a terribly frightening path to take and fair Final Judgment (based on our own Free Will and obedience).

Are you asking whether God already "knew" how his entire "model" would shake out all along? IF he IS the Alpha & Omega, then obviously so. It didn't mean he wouldn't be disappointed as well as proud of us individually or collectively. (I know I go into this "parental" tangent but...it applies. He is after all, "Our Father".)

As God has watched the disastrous results transpiring in real time over the millennia, would or could He have re-considered lowering the bar for his original strict "Ground-Rules" OR switched gears into the Reincarnation Model (Once it was clear The Original Model would result in most taking the wider path of destruction)?

Well, God did almost erase the entire board until He was convinced to just start all over again with Noah, his family, and different Earth "model". But man was still appointed to die at least once.

Would you say that

A) God had no such choice as he is/was restricted by his very nature, or
B) He had a choice, and chose the one now known as Christianity where most of his children end up dying?

Personally, I think He had a choice, and I don't see why he would have chosen a system that works less well than one that works more well.

I agree with "A" -- "God's nature". Whether a "small" sin or "mortal" sin, God's "model still requires our "debt" be paid -- but we can't pay it ourselves, buy our way out or talk/pray our way out.

We must remember that He's given all of mankind Free Will. The onus of personal responsibility and obedience falls on us. Of course some of us will have been blessed with far more favorable conditions, and others far less favorable. Moreover, an allowance would have to be made of those who hadn't a chance to learn the "Ground Rules".

If God is God -- the fairest Judge possible -- we have to assume that His Verdict come Judgment Day will take all factors into account -- including unavoidable circumstances and opportunity.

With respect to the Law as it pertains to "sin and redemption"...

Once God established His Law; once man became a sinner, the die was cast and Ground-Rules or "test" of our will to either "listen" to ourselves OR to God was afoot. So you see it is *we* who actually indict and condemn ourselves OR choose to live on in His Kingdom

Redemption and Penance were to become man's only Path to God, to "disinfect" our soul before Him and His Kingdom. Until God returned to offer up Himself *in the Flesh* to make us clean enough to entire His Kingdom, the only "Redemption" was in the symbolic death-sacrifice of animals as a proxy for ourselves. And then came Jesus...

IF God shifted his original "Game Plan" to Reincarnation, the inevitable sin against God in subsequent lives is never really addressed fully or importantly remediated by man, nor can* be. Man (in his sin-nature) cannot resolve or absolve himself. Only God the Almighty can do that. (Which is one reason why the Newton model comes up short. Who or what "absolves" man of his sin in its model? Or...is such absolution just not necessary because "death" isn't considered "Final"?

It seem to me that the human condition has naturally gravitated toward the definitive expectation of climactic "Resolution" and "Justice" either way. Could this "expectation" be hard-wired? (as historically speaking is an innate belief in One Greater Than Us.)

IS it possible in the Newton model to become "sin-less"? And what is its Grand Arbiter? (We are told there are team "Counselors" who assess lives and make recommendations).

I wonder -- is it the general position of Newton model believers that this model will definitely supersede the Christ-ian model/account of Judgment Day? (If so, does the degree of certainty of Newtonesque protocol and destination upon death vary among believers?)

(Longer dialogue regarding Newtonesque model attributes & facets, and "Finish Line" "Fear" factor stuff to be continued)

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-17   17:09:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: Liberator (#144)

Discussions taken to "excess" make for among the best and most interesting threads.

In my opinion what kills a forum: Willful Ignorance. Same ol' same ol'. Fear of engagement. Off-handed personal ridicule and contempt of theories.

You asked "why should the "obsession" or extreme interest any OTHER subject of discussion on a forum be "stopped" or curtailed? "

Isn't it obvious in my honest opinion? --- that nothing kills a forum like LF faster than religious discussions taken to an excess of animosity, or of personal remarks?

Granted, --- that hasn't happened yet on this thread, and may not happen at all... I'm just saying that it does happen all too often.

Your inference that I have a "Willful Ignorance, a fear of engagement", --- or that I'm attempting "Off-handed personal ridicule and contempt of theories" is a good example of how this type of discussion starts to slip into excess..

My comments to Vic were made to agree with some of HIS theories, --- not to insult or denigrate any you hold.. ---- Nor do I ridicule religious people, --- I'm agnostic (I simply don't know), --- I'm not an atheist (one who denies the existence of god)...

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-18   9:24:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Vicomte13 (#141)

there are conservatives like you, of a more libertarian bent, who find religion to be a complete waste of time. But more conservatives think that it's important, and so it is, in conservative politics.

Because I'm a constitutionalist/libertarian, and an agnostic, your idea that I find religion "a waste of time" baffles me, as I've never indicated anything like that belief..

Although thinking back 68 years ago, I may have said something like that to Father Riser, the young priest trying to Confirm me as a Catholic, and failing, (tho we didn't tell that to my mother). ;-)

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-18   9:50:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: tpaine (#147)

Because I'm a constitutionalist/libertarian, and an agnostic, your idea that I find religion "a waste of time" baffles me, as I've never indicated anything like that belief..

Although thinking back 68 years ago, I may have said something like that to Father Riser, the young priest trying to Confirm me as a Catholic, and failing, (tho we didn't tell that to my mother). ;-)

I may have been projecting. I think that religion is a waste of time unless it's true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   13:53:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: All (#138)

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model. When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

(PS: looking it up, I see it's "seventy times seven" not "seven times seventy-seven").

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-18   20:13:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Pinguinite (#149)

I hold to a different model, one that I believe is what the Scriptures properly parsed for authority in their original languages actually say.

I hesitate because I anticipate the anger of Christians who believe their various traditions. Each of the traditions has a basis in Scripture, but I think the interpretations err in that they do not respect the proper hierarchy of authorities, and they rely on mistranslated terms and traditions that have risen up around them. What the Scriptures actually SAY in the original languages is quite a bit different. I don't believe the Christian traditions - I believe they err in important ways. I do believe the literal read of the original languages with respect to the proper authorities.

I will write it out if you're actually interested in hearing iit. If you really don't care, then I'd rather not go to the effort, both because it is not a short exposition, and because I'd rather not get shit on by angry co-religionists.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   21:39:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Vicomte13, Pinguinite (#150)

I will write it out if you're actually interested in hearing iit .

Get with the program dude; you are long-winded and really don't care about the objectives of the discussion, tyme after tyme.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-18   21:45:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: buckeroo (#151)

Exhibit A.

Buckeroo is not interested in it.

If Pinquinite is, I will write it out. Otherwise, I'm fine to leave it be.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   21:52:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Vicomte13 (#152)

You just don't fuckin' care, dude. Do you post on Huffington Post, too?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-18   22:06:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: buckeroo (#153)

What I have to say is intelligent and interesting. I do care enough, sometimes, to get permission before I launch. I’m figuring here that Pinguinite is interest d enough in the subject, and intrigued enough to authorize me to proceed, and then I will, and what will flow from my keyboard will be interesting and provocative. It usually is. I don’t write on Huffington Post. Used to write on FreeRepublic, until they banned me for criticizing H W Bush, whom of course they were themselves criticizing soon enough. I’m usually about two years ahead of the trend line, which means you can learn a lot from me once you get past my smug arrogance. I post nowhere but here and, rarely, on Christian Forums, so really I’m a Liberty’s Flame special feature. For those wishing to get the wisdom and wit of the 13th Vicomte of somewhere obscure in France, Liberty’s Flame is just about the exclusive source. Thanks for asking!

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-18   22:29:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: Vicomte13 (#150)

I hesitate because I anticipate the anger of Christians who believe their various traditions.

I can speak for myself, and I believe also for Liberator, in saying no anger or ridicule will be forthcoming from us. While I have referred to one of your recent perspectives as "hogwash" not long ago, that was my honest perception. And whatever I consider your view point to be, that's a very different thing from how I perceive you. I do wish you the very best, no matter our differences.

Each of the traditions has a basis in Scripture, but I think the interpretations err in that they do not respect the proper hierarchy of authorities, and they rely on mistranslated terms and traditions that have risen up around them. What the Scriptures actually SAY in the original languages is quite a bit different. I don't believe the Christian traditions - I believe they err in important ways. I do believe the literal read of the original languages with respect to the proper authorities.

I guess I would respond by saying that I'm less interested in ancient writings than I would be of something with more tangible evidence of truth. With Newton, we have claims of past life recall. Most of them can't be substantiated, but a very few are (though only one need be substantiated to upset the apple cart) Combine that with what I consider reasonable logic about our existence and everything just falls into place very well.

But back to what original Hebrew meant.... would you have any more reason to hold that to be truth than you would original Egyptian hieroglyphs about Osiris, Set and their family of gods? Or the original writings of Budda, or perhaps teachings of the Greek gods as originally decyphered by oracles of the day? What makes the ancient writings of the Israeli's special and gives them the trademark of true divine origin?

Unless you can give that, then I'll honestly say that your time writing it for me would indeed likely be wasted, just as any detailed description or substantiation of Newton's depiction of life would likely be of no interest to you.

I will say that Buck is right about one thing. You are indeed longwinded. Many times as I scroll down through a comment, if it goes on and on, I know before reaching the bottom that it's yours, and I'm always right. You might consider putting some effort into condensing your views. Not for our sake but for yours. Unless you get some reward from being long winded, you may be better off spending some of that typing time doing something else. I offer that constructively.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-19   2:02:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: Pinguinite (#155)

The reason I know that there is God is multiple personal miracles and interactions with the divine, and the demonic. I recognize that this is as unverifiable by anybody else as are Near Death Experience claims.

In order to bridge that gap of demonstrability, I present the physical miracles that have been examined in the lab and extensively reported on: the Shroud, the Lanciano miracle, the incorrupt bodies, and the Lourdes healings. Because it is the details of these various artifacts that renders them miraculous, the miracles cannot be seen without indulging in extensive detail. Because the miracles prove something that people don't want proven, the facile objections need to be addressed.

All of that takes time.

What the miracles demonstrate is that there is an intelligent power above nature. The fact that all of the physically examinable miracles - not the claims of miracles, but the ones that can actually be - and that have been - touched, examined under electron microscopes, etc. - are overtly Christian in content, and there are no similar examinable miracles that demonstrate the truth of any OTHER religion, allow one to eliminate the need to consider all of the religions. They claim miracles, but they have nothing examinable. Christianity claims miracles, and has objects that are miracles. Thus, the miracles themselves are evidence for Christianity, while the lack of miracles in the other religions reduce them in relative authority.

The miracles are laden with informational content: they revolve around Jesus. So therefore, Jesus has to be examined. The only written contemporary sources that tell us about Jesus are the four Gospels, John's Revelation, and the first part of Acts. Therefore, that is where we have to concentrate our efforts.

What Jesus said is recorded in Greek, not English. Jesus never spoke of Hell. He spoke of Gehenna, and of Sheol/Hades. The word "forever" is a mistranslation of a Hebrew concept, and a misuse of a Greek concept that parallels the Hebrew, not the English.

Every aspect of this discussion collides with hundreds and even thousands of years of tradition, and each point has to be made with considerable precision. All of that takes time.

I've put in the time because, going back to the start: I've talked to God and experienced major miracles, so I know that the effort is worthwhile.

To express it in short, pithy form exceeds my ability as a writer. Especially given that each sentence of that short form will be vigorously attacked. To express it in the only form I know how is to be attacked.

I'm going to leave it be. The game is not worth the candle.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-19   6:39:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: Vicomte13 (#156)

Under the Newton model, miracles can happen independent of whether the person deemed to be the instigator is theologically accurate. There is a separation of spirituality and academic knowledge, such that it is not required that one have correct theological understanding of God to live a successful life in spiritual terms. This to me makes perfect sense as it makes one's intelligence a non-issue when it comes to "salvation", or, in the Newton equivalent, progression. If it were otherwise, it would potentially give supernatural favor to those who happen to be born with a higher intellectual ability over those with lessor intellectual ability, and that goes completely counter to basic "theo-logic".

The equivalent human context: Would parents only love and welcome a child who scored A's in a particular subject, say science, over another child who was only able to average "D's"? Would those "loving" parents be disappointed but none-the-less condemn that child to a life of punishment because of his performance in a single subject? Would they have no interest in how that child does in other subjects, and carry through with this permanent punishment/lack of reward even if this failing child exceeded the capabilities of the first child in other areas?

To me, the answer is clear, and it's to God's credit that our intellectual understanding of Him is of little, if any, importance, and this is consistent with the Newton model. Any religious belief system that broadcasts a message of "our belief system is the only way to enter God's presence" pretty much portrays God as being petty, in my view. If someone is able to perform miracles (and under the Newton model, they can occur) it is because of spiritual, not intellectual, strengths. And this goes hand in hand with the concept of the "soul" as being the bulk of our identity, not the physical human body or brain, which though defining part of what we are, does not change our spiritual form any more than, in physical context, changing out of a suit into cut-off jeans and torn undershirt changes who a person is. In that way, the human body is just a discardable shell, which again makes perfect sense, and renders the creation/evolution debate moot. Humans may well have descended from apes and ultimately worms, but even so, it nevertheless has zero impact on our value as children of God, because we are, in fact, not humans but "angels", as it were, that wear human shells for a season.

The end result is, in the Newton model, that the ability to perform supernatural miracles is not proof of theological accuracy about God.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-19   8:59:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: Pinguinite (#157)

Under the Newton model, miracles can happen independent of whether the person deemed to be the instigator is theologically accurate. There is a separation of spirituality and academic knowledge, such that it is not required that one have correct theological understanding of God to live a successful life in spiritual terms. This to me makes perfect sense as it makes one's intelligence a non-issue when it comes to "salvation", or, in the Newton equivalent, progression. If it were otherwise, it would potentially give supernatural favor to those who happen to be born with a higher intellectual ability over those with lessor intellectual ability, and that goes completely counter to basic "theo-logic".

That's fine as an intellectual construct, but if it is to be brought into reality, actual miracles would have to be studied scientifically, to demonstrate that they are not merely coincidences. The deep study of physical objects requires forensic science that itself requires a great deal of education and intelligence.

Certainly the miraculous object itself, and the perception of it by one who believes it is a miracle (or who sees the miraculous event as it happens), do not require any great intelligence or learning to comprehend, but for that object to be admitted by modern, scientifically-educated minds as really BEING miraculous does require a tremendous amount of effort - and even then, once the effort has been expended, the mind that does not want to accept the evidence can (and often does) simply dismiss it all out of hand.

So you're right: miracle does not require genius to experience or to believe. But to PROVE a miracle, that an object contains miraculous properties, one must be thoroughly versed in the laws of physics and in forensic science, such that one can examine the object and report those specific aspects of it that cannot exist under the standard theories as we understand them, and that don't have any likely scientific alternative explanation. Only when that effort has been expended can the skeptic be answered with science - that the object has been studied by science, and it is simply inexplicable - it cannot be, under the known laws of the universe, but there it is anyway.

Once one has assembled a set of such artifacts - they do exist, they have been studied - one can observe aspects of the set. The most salient fact that is obvious is that (almost) all of them are Christian in theological contenr.

So, nature itself, which formed these stunning artifacts, did so with a strong religious prejudice, apparently. There aren't any Muslim miracles like that, or Jewish, or Confucian, or Hindu. Sure, there are claims of miracles, but they don't stand up under scientific scrutiny. The set of those that do are almost entirely Christian.

The data of the miracles, taken as a set, favors the study of the Christian religion, because when nature goes haywire and produces a miracle, it does so conveying Christian data. Nature is biased towards Christianity, which means that if one wants to use the forensic of evidence of miracle as an aid to selecting what religion to study, one has to end up studying Christianity.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-19   12:35:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: Pinguinite (#157)

If someone is able to perform miracles (and under the Newton model, they can occur) it is because of spiritual, not intellectual, strengths.

That's a model. You start with a model.

I am starting with objects that actually ARE miracles that already exist, and confirming their miraculous nature through forensics. I am willing to examine any object or circumstance that claims to be a miracle - there are plenty of scientists who do study these things.

Of the objects that have been examined and pronounced scientifically inexplicable, all but a handful are Christian (the remainder are Bhuddist). The objects themselves are fraught with Christian theological content.

Therefore, starting with the physical and the forensics, nature shows the path to study first.

I don't start with an idea. I start with a sheet, a lump of tissue, a body or two, and proceed upward from there.

They are different starting points, yours and mine.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-19   12:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Pinguinite (#149)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

I apologize for not finishing up my Part 3 of response -- which would have/will included that Bible quote....

You're right -- I didn't construe your quote as anywhere near "mocking" or insulting; My initial impression was in chuckling to myself. I thought it was clever and conveyed in great humor. Yup, IOW, I "got it".

I'll be out of thought-sequence on Part 3, but may as well respond and expound on your thoughts about "forgiveness" as was taught by Jesus.

"Seventy-times seven" -- there are a few different ways to interpret it; One obviously is the degree and extent to which we should forgive our brothers (just as long as they are truly repentant).

Another is the numerology facet, which the Bible and Jesus often cited. The number 7 is the number of perfection and completeness. It is said (and discovered) as yet one more divine non-coincidence that life operates in cycles of seven (the perfect number chosen by God.)

(For example, in the book of Revelation there are seven churches, seven angels to the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpet plagues, seven thunders and the seven last plagues. The first resurrection of the dead takes place at the 7th trumpet, completing salvation for the Church. And of course, Micky Mantle wore #7 ;-)

But back on track -- IF as you say we, mankind, are to forgive as applied law (again, just as long as the offense and sin is NOT habitual and repentance is sincere), then it is what it is.

That said, should the rules, laws, and conditions for Mankind within the realm of our mortal, finite plane be applied to Almighty God in His Realm? I think that is the crucial distinction to consider here.

We are not The Final Judge and Arbiter of Sin and Justice; God set up the rules and laws -- and He was clear about the Finality of His Judgment. His "restrictive limit on forgiveness" is ultimately hinging on our own heart-felt repentance as well as whether we've accepted His Son, Jesus, in the very last act of "Forgiveness" by the only One who matters -- God.

Yes, man may be able to forgive one another for 70 Times 7...until Judgment Day, when the John 3:16 "Clause" kicks in.

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Yes, "limits" do mean "definitive". As do "Laws" in the strictest sense.

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He? It could be construed as a lack of discipline where the evil "students" get a Mulligan forever while the "holy" students are arguably bumped up into "Counselor" positions as a reward. Maybe it's just me -- it doesn't feel like "love"; it feels like an absentee parenting.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"? From my perspective, sorta like a substitute teacher or foster parent who is technically "there" and in charge, but is merely going through the motions until the "Lesson" may or may not be learned, *only* "Quizes" are given on life (NOT do or die "Tests"), and students/children "graduate" or become "adult" only if they feel motivated.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

The Christan God's "love" can be seen in nature in the sun, the water, the food, in nature. It's the tip of the iceberg of His Kingdom. That's not to say that man won't experience deep hardship and heartbreak in this life. For those who take the Narrow Path (yes, God doesn't sugar-coat it -- far more will not make it, but let's remember that that path is a matter of OUR own Free Will.)

The Christian God's love and promises are not only far more tangible than the Newton model, but reach deep into the heart and soul of those seeking Him. He speaks to those who speak to Him. The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

Ping, I'm sorry -- I just don't see any of that "Everything works better". I realize you'll discount that as a blind eye or ignorance, but the Newton model seems like a Karmic system that dispenses no actual Justice, has no "Helm", no "Captain", and no real Destination.

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment. Yes, along with possible Damnation. But also...Possible Eternal Life with God in His Perfect Kingdom. (This account is described and confirmed by several sources in Scripture. Is there a "confirmed" source of Newtonian Afterlife?)

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. (That notion/belief still doesn't mean it's Model confirms what actually happens THE Second after we die.)

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model.

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous. Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

(Moreover, to clarify -- IF true "Justice" were to be meted out by God on Judgment Day, ALL mankind would be declared guilty and condemned. Why? Because we have ALL broken His Law and sinned. (This is the crux of "Grace" and Salvation" and Christ's Love -- that we become declared innocent AND perfect in the Blood of Christ.)

When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony. A

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with? You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-19   16:07:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: Liberator (#160)

It is true -- the Newton model of "forgiveness" is far more liberal. But in its model, God lets *everything* slide, doesn't He?

If letting things "slide" is your impression, it's an incorrect one and shows your mindset is anchored to the idea that only two states are possible, forgiven and unforgiven, and that is all God cares about. Indeed, that's clear from your other writings and certainly is the Christian doctrine. But under the Newton model, it's really about growth, and if God simply lets things "slide", then there's no growth. As I have emphasized a few times there **IS** accountability in the Newton model.

Yes, I can see how you might construe the Newton model God as more "patient" (eternally patient is it turns out). But might not that kind of God actually be considered "indifferent"?

In a word, no. Because it's about growth. You are fixated on the thought that forgiveness must be a tenant of any spirit model. It seems you cannot see beyond that / more than that. In essense, you see fault in the Newton model because of the incompatibilities it has with the fundamental doctrine you are anchored to.

Moreover, in the Newton model, "Graduation Day" (If it comes) -- what resolution or realm again are its "students" graduating TO? What is the "Finish Line"?

... The Christian God has clearly laid out the ground rules and Law, the Way, Truth and Life (without ambiguity), through nothing but simple Grace/Charity/Love paid the ransom for our eternal lives -- AND tells us that the reward for our faith and loyalty is...His Kingdom Forever.

You say the rules are clear, and yet you did say in another post that the Bible is too deep for anyone to understand. Contradiction?

As for the "reward" for faith and loyalty. Is that the reason Christians follow Jesus? So they can get a "reward" from God for being "loyal"? Isn't that a bit.... wrong somehow, in the sense that it's almost a monetary payback? Admittedly, under the Newton model we are rewarded, but with growth. I guess it's a case of our rewarding ourselves for our perseverance and lifelong choices, rather than God rewarding us. As we do well, we grow well.

As for what the "finish line" is, as far as I can tell, it is, ultimately, rejoining God, which is pretty much the same as what Christianity says so there's no conflict there. But isn't it unfair of you to cite the mysteriousness of the full path of the Newton model when you yourself stated that the Bible is beyond complete understanding? Why is it then so bad that the Newton model is beyond complete understanding? Under Christianity, you die and bamm... your there with God. All done for the rest of eternity, no more learning is required. Under Newton, not so fast... it's a far, far, far, longer road. Does it sound so absurd that God might want us to actually grow?

The Newtonian Resolution seems to be more like a lukewarm purgatory, treading and bobbing in water forever, putting off the inevitable: Death. And Judgment.

You are fixated on the belief that ultimate "judgement" must occur. As long as your mind has sworn loyalty to that belief, then yes you will certainly not ever see sense in the Newton model.

Obviously, the avoidance of negative, fatal resolutions for eternity are what make Newton's model preferable. There are many other points that favor the Newton model (though I don't consider such advantages proof Newton is correct).

I see "Free Will" in the Newtonian Model, but not remotely any Accountability. Nor Justice. To me, any system that dispenses an earned and holy "Justice" is Godly and righteous.

That is indeed your perception.

Conversely, why wouldn't Justice that NOT dispensed be considered unfair, a mockery of Eternal Justice?

Again, it's about growth, not justice. Though justice can help facilitate growth. Under Newton, justice is a means of growth. Under Christianity, not so much. In fact, perhaps not at all. Justice is instead, once served, the end of the line, one way or the other.

Lol...a Chevy "Sail"? Never hoid of it. lets us a "Chevette" as an example :-)

Oh, okay. We have them down here and they are a popular model slightly higher than an basic Aveo go-kart, which is a glamorized Spark which almost *IS* a go-kart. If you know those models. Are they still making Chevettes in the US?

The problems with the Newton model remain (without repeating myself) is the lack of evidence, questionable testimony, lack of authority, and its namesake "Prophet" who was an Atheist by his own account. And...where is the "love"??

Wow. I could say a lot. But I guess I already have. As for Newton's Atheist past, my first thought is of St. Paul who was certainly worse than an atheist, so I'll return to you that parallel. As for the love in the Newton model.... it sure seems to me Newton wins that contest hands down.

God proves His identity by His Creation and Love and Justice by the testimony of eyewitness accounts, by miracles, by His laws and existence of His Kingdom through the Prophets, and both His Kingdom and Hell by Scriptural testimony.

I take issue with the claim of witnesses. Unless they've been (quite ironically) reincarnated, the witnesses you refer to are dead, and so cannot be cross examined and so on. What you have are ancient written claims of accounts. By contrast, Newton has witnesses in the form of currently living people who have had past life recall. You may very well have contemporary accounts of miracles accredited to Christian faith. However, those can in fact potentially be explained under the Newton model. By contrast, the Christian explanation for evidence of Newton's model seems to rest on demons weaving a long lasting web of lies. Ultimately, I can't rule that out. But on the other hand, I suggest it's not possible to rule it out for any belief. Is it possible to rule out Christianity as having a similar deceptive source?

You've obviously invested quite a bit of soul-searching into eternal justice and our destiny beyond this mortal coil -- and that's a good thing because it is ultimately all that matters.

Indeed I have. Thank you. You have also.

Why discount the Christan account in the first place? Can it be distilled down to your perception of "cruelty" and God's condemnation of sin and His banning of it from His Kingdom? Or was it your total objection that the "Word" is tainted by "man" to begin with?

A very good and fair question.

One reason to discount Christianity is the same argument atheists put forth. A lack of fairness. The idea that an 8 year old child that dies going on to spend eternity in hell because he never heard a Christian gospel is, on it's face, a difficult concept to stomach. Some people live to old age, others die quite young. Some grow up in Christian homes, others never having a chance to consider it as a means to salvation. Yes, there is the standard response to atheists who raise this objection, but in the end, Liberator, that paperwork, bureaucratic divine legalese explanation does not save the 8 year old from eternal damnation.

So I ask you, is that the best God can do? Under Christian rules, the answer is "yes". That is the best our all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise God can do.

Well, under Newton, we have a different answer, and that answer is "no". God can do far better. Far, far, better. And I believe He does do better.

You DO understand that Newton was man...as were his subjects of whom provide the entire basis of the Newton Model? (Why should the latter's testimony be credible without question and wield THE truth, but the word of Jesus, the Apostles or the Prophets be invalidated?)

This question is unfair. Never have I considered Newton to be on target "without question". I've been fielding all questions about Newton I can possibly find, from yourself and others.

I can't debate "Truth" of the matter if you've already determined Christianity to be based on lies and testimony you deem invalid or discredited.

Indeed, we are, unsurprisingly, both firmly set in our views. But being challenged is always a good thing nonetheless.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Vicomte13 (#158)

Both your replies seem to show miracles as a basis of belief in an associated theology. As I stated but perhaps not strongly enough, under the Newton model I recognize, supernatural miracles can occur even if a person they are credited to harbors inaccurate theology. In fact, even under the Christian model, would one suppose than every Christian that a miracle is credited to has a perfect understanding of God? I don't think any Christian scholar would suggest that perfect theological understanding is a requirement to be able to successfully invoke the power of God. So the next question is, to what degree could someone be inaccurate in his understanding of God and still invoke this kind of supernatural favor?

I guess I see that as the Achilles heel in your argument. Miracles are not certain proof of theological accuracy. And as I've stated a few times, under the Newton model, supernatural events (miracles) can occur within and without Christian context. I believe every one of us has at least a very tiny ability to supernaturally affect the world around us. It's why prayer can work.

In Newton terms, Christianity is a good faith because it espouses pretty much all the same values of love, patience, compassion and so on that the Newton model does. And Newton agrees with Christianity that those are the important things in life, not miracles.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-20   18:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: Pinguinite (#162) (Edited)

But Pinguinite, I have never spoken of theological accuracy. What I am saying is that the miracles prove the existence of God.

I then observe the nature of the actual miracles that exist in the real world in tangible enough format that they can be scientifically studied. These things DO exist, and they are studied.

I contrast this with CLAIMS of miracle, which may be true or not true, but which cannot convince me unless I experience them myself. To make a persuasive argument to me, you have to show me a thing I can study, not an idea that could be a lie.

These things do exist, and they have been studied. I note that the miracles that actually exist are almost entirely Christian in content. The Shroud of Turin is Jesus' burial cloth, the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle is a piece of human heart tissue and blood...same blood as on the Shroud. Incorrupt bodies of saints exist, undecayed after all these years. And of course the Lourdes miracles happen in the here and now, under the eyes of modern medicine.

These miracles demonstrate God's power, and demonstrate that God is at least willing to perform miracles within the Christian religion (and more specifically, the Catholic religion). That means that however objectionable to other humans that particular religion may be, evidently God is not so offended as to deny it miracles. That's one prong of observation.

The other is the fact that there are NOT any similar concrete physical examinable miracles in any OTHER religion except for a few Bhuddist incorrupt monks.

You're right that the presence of miracle in and of itself does not prove divine favor for a particular religion, and the absence of miracle, by itself, does not prove divine disfavor for a particular religion. But the juxtaposition of the fact that there ARE concrete examinable physical miracles in one religion only, and none in any of the others, actually DOES demonstrate a degree of divine favor for that one religion on which God has bestowed the miracles over the rest to which he has given none.

Put more strongly, the existence of forensically examinable miracles proves God. The monopoly of forensically examinable miracles in one single religion proves that God prefers that religion, or at least prefers to give that religion tangible proof of his existence, while leaving the rest without it.

There is no Achilles' Heel in that argument. It's really quite stark and strong. The inference is clear and cannot really be argued with. The only way to attack the argument effectively is to deny that the tangible forensically examinable miracles exist.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   21:20:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: Pinguinite (#149)

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Yes.

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   22:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Vicomte13 (#154)

What I have to say is intelligent and interesting.

Do you sense your own post as conceited and self-eccentric to create the rule and definitions that are about yourself as opposed to the world around us?

I do.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:13:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

Not true.

You discounted Beelzebub in your prayer for salvation.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:15:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: buckeroo (#165)

Nah. I see what I wrote as needling you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-20   22:16:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Vicomte13 (#167)

You are the devil, himself .... 'eh?

buckeroo  posted on  2018-06-20   22:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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