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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 35378
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#209. To: Pinguinite (#206)

Souls are not necessarily immortal,

f the age of a writing is a deciding factor in it's authority, why not go back to even more ancient writings?

Because the only physical miracles that exist that are actually examinable in a forensic laboratory, and that have been examined and found to be scientifically inexplicable, are all Christian (except for three or four incorrupt Bhuddist monks, who seem to exhibit incorruption, but who have not been forensically examined).

So, the only proven miracles are all Christian. Two of them pertain directly to the body of Jesus: the image on his burial shroud, and his heart tissue, containing the same blood as on the shroud, from 600 years later.

None of the other gods, texts, mythologies have any scientific proof, and so can be dismissed as stories. The story of Jesus has to be taken more seriously because something broke the laws of physics to assert, through laboratory-examinable miracle, the physics breaking quality of Jesus.

That's why we focus on Jesus and disregard the rest: God proves HIS divinity through evidence. God leaves NO evidence at all for any of the other legends, stories, myths and writings - other than perhaps a head not to the individual holiness of a handful of Bhuddist monks.

Jesus was important enough for God to override the laws of nature to leave provable evidence - evidence that can survive modern computation, electron microscopy and forensic science. Without that, ALL of the religious texts could be - and probably should be - dismissed as myths. Their science is all cockamamie. We know better.

With Jesus, though, we have miracles. So we have to treat this one differently.

All that we know about him is written in five ancient scrolls. Incidentally, we have no more words and teaching and documentary evidence of any other person from the First Century than him. The direct quotation of Jesus exceeds the direct quotation of any other person in the Roman Empire from the First Century. God thought Jesus was important enough to waive the laws of physics and insert miracles into the world so that 21st Century scientists would have to look at him - and ONLY him - based on the evidence. There are no other forensically examinable miracles - None. But there ARE Christian miracles, and on examination, they are not scientifically explicable.

So, from the aspects of the religions and ancient texts that contradict what we know scientifically about the universe, we know that they are all poppycock. But Jesus himself gets a saving throw, because the same nature we study to know that the creation myths are all legends and not true is the nature that gave us the Shroud and the Lanciano heart tissue and blood, and they ARE miraculous, nature-defying.

So we've got science itself pointing at Jesus, while simultaneously debunking all of the other religious stories, because they tell us an origin of the world that is false.

Jesus doesn't tell us the origin of the world. The Jews do, but Jesus didn't teach about that. Rather, Jesus taught a specific set of moral rules, and made those moral rules the criteria to be accepted by the Father and allowed to live on after death in a good way, as a spirit, and then to be reunited with a body at the resurrection, and to live on after that with God.

What Jesus said is what is important, and he is confined to four overlapping texts from four pens, that provide four witness viewpoints - better testimony than for any OTHER ancient figure, and a fifth text (Revelation) in which he tells the hearer to take dictation.

THAT is why THOSE texts, and not any of the other ones.

Now, Jesus came out of a culture, Hellenic Judaism, and he used the reference points and texts of his culture to teach his hearers, which sort of bootstraps in the Hebrew old testament texts as a source of learning and example, but NOT of the same weight or authority as the only guy for whom God actually overrode the physics and left us miracles we can all examine in the lab.

That's why it's JUST Jesus, and that's why the other texts have SOME importance, but not the SAME importance as what he says.

With "soul", again the English fouls us up. What the Hebrew says is that we are a breath (the word "spirit" means "breath" or "wind") from God that animates a body made of dirt. When the breath and the body are bound together, that unit is called a "nephesh", which we have translated into English as a "soul". At physical death, the SPIRIT departs into Sheol - which is either Gan Eden or Gehenna - while the BODY falls back to dust. "Man, thou art dust, and to dust thou shall return". Since the "SOUL" is the UNION of BODY and BREATH/SPIRIT - a "breather" in the original language - the SOUL ceases to exist at physical death. Only the SPIRIT goes on, into the afterlife of Sheol. Spirits without a debt of sin go straight to Gan Eden, which is the Paradise Garden of God: back to Eden. Everybody else pays for sin in Gehenna "until the last penny is paid", to quote Jesus.

Now, God's law given to the Hebrews gives us some inkling that God does not permit debts to be held forever - after 6, or 49 - years God compelled the forgiveness of all debt under his law, so PERHAPS the payment in the hot prison of Gehenna

[LONG PARENTHETICAL] (which is described by Jesus as hell-ISH, but should not be called "Hell", because that is a Scandinavian pagan and Christian term that imply things that Jesus did NOT say - we should be precise about language so as to not drag in all of the errors of the ages, and just use the direct terms that Jesus used),

[RESUME SENTENCE] is time limited. Jesus said "until", not "forever". In any event, Jesus said that the dead are not dead - they are asleep.

At the end of the world, Jesus said that all SPIRITS will be called and put back into bodies - SOULS again - living people - and the person will be judged. Those who pass judgment will enter as SOULS - spirit + body: living people, through the gates of pearl into the City of God, which will come down from the sky (nobody "goes TO heaven" - Heaven is just the sky in the Scripture). Those who fail may wail outside in darkness, as souls. Or they may be thrown as souls - bodies bound with spirits - into the lake of fire for the second death. This, Jesus indicates, really IS death, which strongly implies that not only is the body burnt up - thereby destroying the SOUL, because the SPIRIT is stripped from the body, and a SOUL is a bound spirit and body - but also perhaps the spirit itself, which is a breath of God in its origin, is burnt up and gone, destroyed.

That is the best read, though one can fuss at some of the margins. It does not fit Christian theology very well, because Christian theology has confused spirit and soul, making them synonyms, has confused Gehenna and the Lake of Fire with each other, and labelled both as "Hell", which never appears, has confused the Garden of Eden - Paradise, and also the City of God, with the sky (Heaven), and confuses "to a distant time" with "forever". The Christian tradition has changed all of the goalposts of what Jesus said. What JESUS said is actually internally consistent, and gives a clear and non-contradictory structure that fits seamlessly with everything that GOD HIMSELF said directly in the entire Bible. It conflicts somewhat with things that OTHER speakers in the Bible said, including Apostles and other writers, and it certainly conflicts quite sharply with what Christians believe about Heaven, Hell and the Afterlife.

So, the Christians are wrong and Jesus is right, and we should listen to him - Just him - not "Him PLUS", because the plus conflicts, and none of the plus has any ancient physical miracles we can look at in the lab, but HE does.

Since ALL of the miracles that we can examine are of Jesus, therefore laboratory science proves that Jesus is divine more probably than not, and we should listen to him. Since all other religious texts and sources, including other parts of the Bible, and other religions, and the beliefs OF the Christian religion, conflict with Jesus, we should ignore and discard all of the rest of it and listen to Jesus, JUST Jesus, JESUS ALONE, because HE is the only God who has actually PROVEN himself with physical miracles that even MIT can acknowledge, while all of the rest is piffle, jibber jabber and mere words - and words are wind.

Physical miracles are real proof. I will only believe that which proves itself by miracle. So I will listen to Jesus, because he has done so.

Now, I have had my own miracles from God, which is why I was so dogged about pursuing the actual miracles myself. That is the source of my focus on miracle. I KNOW, but nobody else can, or should, believe in God because I say I have miracles - I could be a liar or a lunatic or a storyteller just like all of the writers of all of those ancient texts.

When the laws of physics put a three-D photographic negative of a man on a piece of LINEN, and somehow that cloth makes it through 2000 years to the forensic lab, along with its linen facecloth companion, while every OTHER piece of cloth from the First Century has crumbled to dust - and the blood on the cloth turns out to be the same very rare blood as from another miracle, of heart tissue, from 600 years and 1500 miles later - and modern American and Western European scientists (i.e.: not superstitious yokels from the undeveloped world) look at these things and say "Yep, they really ARE images and blood, and thus and so - and they really are inexplicable, as no known or postulated process could do that" - THEN I can apply the same inductive reasoning as is used in the rest of science to say -OK, God did this.

And since God ONLY did it for things pertaining to Christ, that means that I suspend disbelief - which is universal for ALL religious and superstitious nonsense and mythology and old fables and fictions of the ancients, and say "I guess I have to take THIS one more seriously, out of all of the crap". Then I read Jesus, and I see a clear moral code that really makes sense, though its hard, I see a promise that fits my OWN miracles, and I realize: That's the voice of God. I know that voice.

So, that's how I know. And that's why none of the rest cut it at all. The world is on the back of a turtle? Please. That's ridiculous.

Mohammed? Well, maybe, except he directly opposed the divine nature of Jesus, but the miracles prove otherwise, so nope. The Greeks and their gods? Nice symbols of nature, but real? We can climb and fly drones up Mount Olympus. There's nothing there but snow.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   14:06:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: Vicomte13 (#209)

When the laws of physics put a three-D photographic negative of a man on a piece of LINEN, and somehow that cloth makes it through 2000 years to the forensic lab, along with its linen facecloth companion, while every OTHER piece of cloth from the First Century has crumbled to dust - and the blood on the cloth turns out to be the same very rare blood as from another miracle, of heart tissue, from 600 years and 1500 miles later - and modern American and Western European scientists (i.e.: not superstitious yokels from the undeveloped world) look at these things and say "Yep, they really ARE images and blood, and thus and so - and they really are inexplicable, as no known or postulated process could do that" - THEN I can apply the same inductive reasoning as is used in the rest of science to say -OK, God did this

Can you post a link to a site that modern American and Western European scientists will verify the scientific claims you make above?

Thanks.

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-23   14:35:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: Vicomte13 (#207)

Actually "To a distant time", and "to the horizon past the horizon" means "not forever". God never promised Israel to the Jews "forever". He promised it to them "to a distant time". That "distant time" came when Jesus pronounced the doom on the vineyard.

"To a distant time" does not imply forever.

"Until the last penny is paid" means "not forever".

Yes, I must agree with this.

As far as the remedy for sin being the cross, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus never said that. Apostles seemed to say it, but Jesus said something very different.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten you think like this. Ok, we won't change each others mind about this but you said what you thought so I'll say what I think at we can leave it at that.

I don't put the bible above God, like you said, at all.

Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. I think the bible is written by men as God directed them. That's all of it, gospels, epistles, and the words in red. That's the written word of god, not the spoken word - that which proceedeth from his mouth.

There is no conflict between Paul and Jesus or any of the books and authors. It's all the same source and is laid out as God wanted it to be and tells a whole story. You can't just say this part doesn't matter and this part does. Some parts are hard to reconcile but that's ok, it takes a while to understand how it all fits together.

In the New Testament era God intended that he would deal with us one-on-one individually, as He had always intended it to be. 'You will have no need of a teacher, the holy spirit will teach you', and so on. Have faith in God. He can get through to us well enough.

Not an indepth explanation but typing on an ipad here, you get the picture.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-23   15:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: tpaine (#210)

Can you post a link to a site that modern American and Western European scientists will verify the scientific claims you make above?

Thanks.

No. I read a couple of books assembled by STURP. I don't have a link. A long time ago there was a site about the Shroud that had links to things such as the Thermochemica Acta publication about vanillin dating.

There was no simple site I consulted, but different places and research papers and publications. I was examining the data to satisfy my own curiosity, not to persuade others, and I did not save a paper trail.

I think there was a site called "Shroudstory" that contained some links to some of these things.

Can't help you past there.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   16:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: Vicomte13 (#209)

Interesting, and it seems you've answered my challenge well. Thank you.

I would also be interested in the scientific-based, pro-divine arguments in favor of the Shroud. Last time I considered it some 20 years ago, it seems the science was saying the shroud was likely a middle-age forgery.

On the Newton side, we have contemporary claims of accounts of reincarnation, at least one of which is, in my view, beyond any reasonable accusation of fakery and is certainly well beyond coincidence. At the same time, reincarnation is not a new concept in the least, as it's been believed in some cultures, mainly eastern, for thousands of years. And if I'm not mistake, was also considered in early Christianity, since then labeled heresy.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   17:02:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: Biff Tannen (#211)

Thanks for that. When I hear Jesus say to Satan "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God", what I hear Jesus saying is that I need to listen for the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God - words said BY God.

To me, words "inspired by God", words and things that men do because they are filled with spirit for God and write about God, are not words "proceeding forth out of the mouth of God". They are words proceeding forth out of the pen of a man who is inspired by God, to be sure, but they are not words being spoken by God.

I think that the words that "proceed forth out of the mouth of God" are those words that are recorded as having been spoken aloud by God. And that THOSE words are the only words to which Jesus is referring.

The Law - all of the binding provisions of the Torah - are all entirely spoken directly by God to Moses. The text says "And God said..." Then there's lots of history and writing ABOUT God, and wisdom about God, but very, very little in the rest of the Old Testament, outside of a couple of the prophets, that are words spoken directly by God.

Wherever God speaks in the Bible, with the exception of some places in isaiah and Ezekiel, the text always makes it EXPLICIT that GOD is speaking, out loud and directly. THOSE words are the words that "proceeded forth out of the mouth of God" - to proceed forth out of the mouth of anybody, they have to be spoken aloud BY THAT PERSON. Those words, only, are the words to which Jesus referred.

Those are the only AUTHORITATIVE words in the Bible, as I read Jesus to literally say.

So THOSE are the words I isolate. Of course I read the context, but then I take THOSE words and I stack them up. Now, THOSE words really don't conflict.

But then the other stuff, which is 93% of the words of the text (I have counted), are all stuff that did NOT proceed directly forth out of the mouth of God. Under the emprise of God men wrote those things, but some of the things that men wrote in their inspired enthusiasm actually CONTRADICT some of the things that God said directly.

Now, one of the most important things that God said directly, to a crowd out witnesses at the Jordan where John was baptizing, was "This is my beloved Son, LISTEN to HIM."

So, there I have a commandment that is proceeding forth out of the mouth of God, directing me to listen to JESUS, specifically. With that, it doesn't MATTER to me anymore what Jesus' status is relative to God - I've been told he's God's son, by God - not more - and I've been commanded to listen to HIM.

So THAT is what I do.

He, then, tells the Devil that man lives by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God, so I DO pay very close attention to the purple letter words of the Old Testament - and guess what! - in those, God explicitly says that the Laws he gives at Sinai are for the Hebrews and their descendants in Israel, not for the world. THAT is why "The Law" does not apply to Gentiles - Jesus did not release US from it, WE were never under it. He was talking in his life only to Jews, and THEY were under the Law, so the Law figures prominently, but when he talks to Jews, he says he is not changing the Law (of Moses) by a penstroke - which MEANS That NO, NONE of the Old Testament law applies to Gentiles, because God SAID they didn't back when he gave the laws, and Jesus did not change The Law.

Jesus DID give new laws and new moral precepts for the NEW covenant - new wine in a new bottle. And THAT is the law for a Gentile like me. Where Jesus is telling Jews what THEIR law means, he is NOT extending that law to me, because he said he was not changing the Law of Moses at all, and THAT Law says directly, explicitly, dozens of times, right out of the mouth of God, that it applies only to the Hebrews and their circumcised, obedient descendants in Israel.

I'm part Saami. My people could not exist at all if God had intended to Sabbath to be for mankind. The Long Night of the North lasts for 70 days, and the Long Day of summer lasts for 90. If either of those fell on a Saturday, the whole race would be dead from starvation or freezing from the inability to work or light a fire for two or three months - IF the Sabbath applied to the Saami.

But it never did. Not before Jesus, and not after. Jesus did not free ME from the Law, I was never under ANY of it. The Law was for the Jews. Jesus DID establish a "New Deal", a new covenant, for individuals (only - no tribes), and that is the New Covenant. THAT is the law we need to know.

And obeying Jesus has nothing to do with what one THINKS about Jesus, it has to do with what one does vis a vis other men, and God. Blasphemy against Jesus will be forgiven, he promised.

The religion given by Jesus contains very, very little of the things in it that Christians go on about. It DOES contain a few short, stern, hard-to-do things, such as don't lie, forgive, don't hurt, and be extremely charitable, giving and loving.

It is my experience that Christians prefer to change Jesus' hard acts-based religion into an easy religion of mere thoughts. I read Jesus as saying nothing like that, and God told me (in the text) to listen to HIM. In this life, in my own experiences and miracles point me towards Jesus and some of the things he said, and not towards what other men say and have said.

So, I stick with him. What I believe fits within the Catholic Church, although it is a much smaller footprint, and the Catholic Church does not pay attention to individuals. I was baptized there as a baby, and I stick with the one who brung me.

It's why arguing religion with me is so pointless. I've seen miracles, I've studied miracles, I've talked to God, and I listen to God. And I read the Scriptures exactly as I have said above. I am certain I am right, and I don't have tremors of doubt.

So what's the point of arguing religion with me? I'm not listening, really. I don't really care what other people believe. I do know what is right - and that's what I focus on: DOING what Jesus said to DO. As long as you DO it, you are following him. He said that.

So all of agina about who believes what? It's just pointless, to my eyes and mind. I do like to offer my alternative view to the traditions, because I think the world would be a whole lot better if people just listened to Jesus and did what he SAID to do, rather than focus on all of the easier nonsense that people make up to create a lot of ecclesial jobs and to keep people socially organized.

I get the picture of what you said, and thank you for it. Perhaps we should call it a day?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   17:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God", what I hear Jesus saying is that I need to listen for the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God - words said BY God.

You don't believe in God of the Bible. You believe a self serving piece of shit who calls himself God's name.

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools describes Vic to a t.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

I do like to offer my alternative view to the traditions,

Screw your alternative lizard and mouse raising from the dead bullshit. Real followers of Christ don't pray to Mary. Jesus never said to do that you idiot.

Deceiving and being deceived also describes your prideful arrogant ass.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:16:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

is my experience that Christians prefer to change Jesus' hard

That is what you do all the time deceiver.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:19:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: Pinguinite (#193)

Except for those who went through their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel. Correct or no?

Not exactly.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:39:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

Thank you. I'm sure we have much common ground.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-23   19:39:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: Pinguinite (#193)

can understand your own lack of patience with people. But when you say those people are already lost causes destined for hell, what you are doing is ascribing your own level of intolerance to God. But God is better than you. Better than me too.

I think anyone can be saved no matter the sin.

I just don't believe everyone changes and regrets wrongs they have commited.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:41:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

listening, really. I don't really care what other people believe. I do know what is right - and that's what I focus on: DOING what Jesus said to DO. As long as you DO it, you are following him. He said that.

Where did Jesus say to pray to mary?

Where did Jesus say to obey the sinful popes?

When did Jesus say that some scripture isn't God inspired?

He didn't now make up some more bullshit.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:45:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: A K A Stone (#220)

I just don't believe everyone changes and regrets wrongs they have commited.

There's a lot of truth in that statement. The degree to which people have empathy and regret at harming others varies. Some people feel quite strongly on these points while other feel little. This is where experience makes a difference. The more we understand the harm we have done or might do to others, the stronger these sentiments are.

And this is the value gained in returning in subsequent lives which are destined to suffer hardship as we imposed. It teaches us what it's like first hand. It's what makes reincarnation a beautiful tool.

Under the Newton model, This is the value of hardship in life. Hardships under the Christian model don't have such a clear reason in our lives.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   19:57:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: A K A Stone (#215)

You don't believe in God of the Bible.

I know the only God that exists: the real one. When I read the Bible, I see him there in part of it. And I see what he said to do. To me, that is what is important. Talismanic creedal statements as tickets of membership to some religious organization that thinks along the lines you do is not interesting to me.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   22:41:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: A K A Stone (#221)

You have your form of religion, which you have put on magnificent display. I have mine.

I call on God to judge between us.

I call on men who read this also.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   22:43:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: Pinguinite (#205)

On your death bed, can you predict what will be going trough your mind? Will you have any doubts about Christianity? If you answer "no", will that be because you fully anticipate that will be the case?

Yes. On my death bed I CAN with full confidence predict AND know exactly what will be going through my mind as far as communication with God is concerned and with it, the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

Have you ever been with strong Christians in exactly that scenario? I have. 3 to be exact. Fearlessness. A calm and comfort. Yes, a bit of consternation at times, but overall, a confident acceptance. An amazing thing to behold.

No, I have NO reservations or doubt about God's promise to me (or all of us). The reason I don't have an iota of doubt is because I believe Jesus when He said He was "The Way, the Truth, and the Life." AND importantly, because He speaks to me, my heart, my spirit. And I *know* it is Him. (you'll note that I am mostly avoiding citation of Scripture because it might bog down our exchange...but He's told us repeatedly that all we need do is ask Him into our heart.)

...Or it [belief in Jesus as Savior, and His Kingdom] is simply a way for you, today, to do your duty as a Christian to please God by demonstrating loyalty as you believe he has commanded?

The Father is pleased when any of His children listen to His voice, believe in Him, are obedient and stay the course. I *know* with 100% certainty that God's Word is the Truth.

"Loyalty" and love is a two-way street. Yes, the Father is pleased that His commandments are heeded, but especially by one's decision to ask Him into our life, to hear Him. Once that decision is made, heeding His Word and Promise makes it easier to endure temptation to "go rogue". (Not that the Christian won't continue sinning.)

In other words, would you be willing to lie to please God?

"Lie"? I don't understand the question or gist. God will be able to suss out those who truly believe OR are merely cosmetic or "Cafeteria Christians". That said, one only need the faith of a mustard seed, then ask God to enter his heart.

I can say that the Newton model does, for me, in academic terms, ring more true than Christianity, and I would claim to have experienced validation of it in my own personal life. If God is to punish me because my head knowledge or abstract degree of confidence in this single subject of religion is found unpleasing, then He will do so not because of what I believe, but because of what I am. And what I am, is honest.

*I* believe you are sincere AND extraordinarily honest.

However, faith is NOT an "academic" matter; It's a spiritual one. The Newton Model of "redemption" is not coincidentally based in large part on an academic model of teachers, schooling, lessons, etc. One could even draw an analogy to "gradient education" considering the karmic elements.

Your "validation" of forgiveness and patience in *this* life is virtuous and noble; But besides the self-validation in that vein, are you considering your mortal behavior an "obedience" to the "Counselors" in the Afterlife? Or is there indeed an element within your spirit and conscience that knows these trait demonstrate obedience to Almighty God?

Whether God or Newtonian "Counselors", all of the unseen is "abstract" to a degree, wouldn't you agree?

The question is a matter of Authority.

Question:

How many ways does God prove HE is God and The Way, Truth, and Life?
How many ways does the Newtonian Model prove it is the Way, Truth, and Life?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-24   12:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: Liberator (#225)

Have you ever been with strong Christians in exactly that scenario? I have. 3 to be exact. Fearlessness. A calm and comfort. Yes, a bit of consternation at times, but overall, a confident acceptance. An amazing thing to behold.

Accounts of those facing death in a Newton context is very similar. People first fall to fear & pity and questions of why, then move to resolution, then acceptance, and then peace. Or something similar. Though I have not been a witness to such a thing. My theory is that it is because the *soul* understands fully the joyful transition that is going to take place, and over a period of time, that joy eventually permeates and dominates the natural mental fear of death that comes with living as a human, calming everything. It does not surprise me at all that strong Christians would experience the same. Mentally, for a Christian, it would be interpreted as a faith in Jesus being validated. But under the Newton model, it doesn't matter what holy name or holy faith would receive credit for the transformation into a peaceful state, and no correction is necessary. What is important is only that yes, everything IS okay, that death is a wonderful transition as we return from the spirit world from which we came, and which is our true home.

No, I have NO reservations or doubt about God's promise to me (or all of us). The reason I don't have an iota of doubt is because I believe Jesus when He said He was "The Way, the Truth, and the Life." AND importantly, because He speaks to me, my heart, my spirit. And I *know* it is Him. (you'll note that I am mostly avoiding citation of Scripture because it might bog down our exchange...but He's told us repeatedly that all we need do is ask Him into our heart.)

I am very aware of the mind's ability to believe things that are not true. There are (by our reckoning) fanatical Muslims who are so convinced they blow themselves up believing it to be pleasing to Allah.

So even when you say you are completely confident, should I necessarily equate that as a witness to reality? No, not necessarily, and today, I do not.

It's why I am hesitant to make such solid claim myself for what I believe. Or what I think I believe. I'm not sure I am capable of being 100% confident of anything, and why I was open minded to consider Newton's work. And I suppose your confidence is why I don't think you have considered Newton's work as having merit, and why you likely never will, ever. At least in your current life.

In other words, would you be willing to lie to please God?

"Lie"? I don't understand the question or gist.

It seems I'm being persuaded to believe something that is inconsistent with my true convictions.

However, faith is NOT an "academic" matter; It's a spiritual one.

Ironically, while I agree with that statement, I don't think you really do. If it was not an academic matter, but only a spiritual one, then there would be no use, no point, in trying to convert people. People will either believe, or they will not believe, and there's nothing anyone could say to change that. And yet, there is no question you do try to convert people in part by sharing the academics of the Bible.

Indeed, your stated implication is that it's what we are spiritually that really counts, and that is consistent with the Newton model.

Your "validation" of forgiveness and patience in *this* life is virtuous and noble; But besides the self-validation in that vein, are you considering your mortal behavior an "obedience" to the "Counselors" in the Afterlife? Or is there indeed an element within your spirit and conscience that knows these trait demonstrate obedience to Almighty God?

To seek the truth is a virtue. I do it for myself, because I want to grow. Not because I believe anyone commands me to.

Whether God or Newtonian "Counselors", all of the unseen is "abstract" to a degree, wouldn't you agree?

You're losing me.

How many ways does God prove HE is God and The Way, Truth, and Life?

I don't know.

How many ways does the Newtonian Model prove it is the Way, Truth, and Life?

There is no need under the Newton model for God to prove anything. It would explain why we have unclear religious answers about our universe, why we have billions of people believing conflicting faiths. Under Newton, what religious views we hold doesn't really matter.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-24   21:13:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: Pinguinite (#226) (Edited)

Your "validation" of forgiveness and patience in *this* life is virtuous and noble; But besides the self-validation in that vein, are you considering your mortal behavior an "obedience" to the "Counselors" in the Afterlife?

To seek the truth is a virtue.

Ok, we both agree that Truth = Virtue. However, what IS "Truth"? Who/what is its source? Same of virtue. And who defines IT? Does the Newton Model explain? Or is one left to fend for himself?

To the Left's Ideologues and to Satanists, "truth" and "virtue" mean different things.

I do it for myself, because I want to grow. Not because I believe anyone commands me to.

Consider the following "virtuous" statements:

Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop.
Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

They are...some of the Satanist Commandments.

To seek the truth is a virtue. I do it for myself, because I want to grow. Not because I believe anyone commands me to.

IF so-called "Growth" is the End-All goal of the Newtonian Model, then logically, that "growth" can be extended in all 360 degrees, can't it? If 180 degrees is considered "good", the other 180 degrees of "growth" *could* well be considered...questionably virtuous at best and degrees of ambiguous good-to-evil at worst.

The Newton Model still lacks a parent standard bearer to define "virtue" as well as "good" and "bad". AND "wisdom". It doesn't any of it or the genesis of "virtue".

On he other hand, the Bible fully devotes three chapters to virtue, wisdom, and guidance AND "growth" in this life:

PROVERBS
ECCLESIASTES
SONG OF SOLOMON

People either commit to make a conscious decision to "grow" in *this* life or don't -- that's a matter of Free Will. If Time Expires, whose fault is it really? (God will judge in extenuating circumstances. And btw, NO, babies and children unable to discern morality and Salvation are NOT Hell-bound).

The Bible also offers tangible explanations of Authority, Of Reason, of Inspiration, and....of The Beginning and End.

Newton kinda leaves one hanging in the air. "Growth" as well as the realm of the "Counselors" is dangerously and un-specifically ambiguous, is it not? Moreover, it is an ethereal realm. The Newton Model conspicuously avoids explaining on whose Authority The Counselors speak upon and by what Authority they represent. IF they are indeed mere "Counselors" or "Teachers", one must assume there is a hierarchy conferring higher "rank".

All that said (and unaddressed as of yet), The Newton Model seems to abide in a personal satisfaction of growth and sense of morality or law, instead of a Universal standard of say, "virtue" high-mindedness.

The Bible gave us 10 Commandments; 11 if we count Jesus', 'Love Your Neighbor As Yourself'.

IF those Commandments are not followed by Newtonian disciples, then what ARE it's "Commandments"? Again, we come full circle -- one needs a reference to what's considered "virtuous" behavior.

Frankly and with due respect -- without a definitive law and commandments -- I'd ask, doesn't the Newtonian model and ethic ultimately abide in, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"?

There is no need under the Newton model for God to prove anything.

It would explain why we have unclear religious answers about our universe, why we have billions of people believing conflicting faiths.

Under Newton, what religious views we hold doesn't really matter.

It *might* rather explain the degree of deception and man's nature to be stubborn, rebel and be inclined to believe he can and should be his own deity. As well as make up his own Laws. Given man's nature, we already know that rarely turns our well, and if so, only temporarily.

And for the record, we ARE already in possession of the "Answers" that really matters.

One one hand we have a vast tome of explanation, testimony, wisdom, and message of love and hope within 66 books, 1,189 chapters, and hundreds of thousands of words backing and explaining God's Plan, A-Z, Genesis through Revelation.

The Newton Model: A hypnotherapist/atheist who relied on Past Life Regression and the testimony of his subjects to explain the meaning of this Life as well as Death, and the interim between...before what will be new Karmic journey until enough "Growth" is determined to satisfy....Self or Whom?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-25   14:59:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: Liberator (#227)

I think we've sparred enough for a while. I appreciate your combined honesty and respectfulness.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-25   19:08:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: Pinguinite (#226) (Edited)

If it was not an academic matter, but only a spiritual one, then there would be no use, no point, in trying to convert people. People will either believe, or they will not believe, and there's nothing anyone could say to change that.

I think both of these statements are true. And I act accordingly.

I do hold out hope that those who identify themselves as "scientific", or at least scientifically-minded, could look at the forensics of miracles and realize from the evidence that there is a mind over the physics, but in my experience that does not really happen. So, while I used to really try hard to get people to see those things, I found it largely a waste of time and effort and I have mostly given it up.

And ultimately my attitude about people's religion and morals is the same as my attitude towards their behavior.

I don't really care what people do, as long as they don't do it in the street and disturb the horses. I don't really care what people believe as long as they pay their taxes and don't practice human sacrifice. And there is truly nothing more useless in this world to me than another man's religion (except insofar as my knowledge of his religion makes his decisions and his actions more predictable to me)

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-26   7:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: Liberator (#227) (Edited)

Consider the following "virtuous" statements:

Do not harm little children. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there. They are...some of the Satanist Commandments.

Really? Those are SATANIST Commandments?

Well, I agree with all of them, and would take some of them quite a bit further than that.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-26   7:10:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: Vicomte13 (#229)

It seems "miracles" form a foundation for what you believe.

I guess I can't be critical of that, as I suppose my citation of the account of James Leininger's recollections of being a WWII pilot is basically a miracle, as both coincidence and fraud seem to be ruled out. On the other hand, my sister considers the tilma of Guadalupe to be a real miracle and dismisses the Leininger account out of hand.

It seems Liberator has his miracle in the contemporary Bible.

I guess we all have our favorite miracles, don't we?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-26   23:47:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: Vicomte13 (#230)

Really? Those are SATANIST Commandments?

I know little of the Satanic church beliefs, but what little I have heard seems to make it a certainty that what average Christians think of them is very much an erroneous stereotype. It's not in the least surprising that an average bible believing Christian would ascribe evil attributes identifiable by any 8 year old child to any religious body that calls itself "Satanist". But it seems a satanist church member is as likely to wish you a good afternoon as anyone else, and mean it sincerely.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-26   23:56:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: Pinguinite (#231)

I guess we all have our favorite miracles, don't we?

I broke my neck in a lake alone, was paralyzed and drowning, and then God saved me - on pain of silence for years.

That's mine.

That's also why it's not an intellectual exercise for me - I know God exists. It's why I focus on laboratory-provable miracles: to help others see quickly what I already know, so that we can get onto to the question of what God WANTS of us.

Nobody I meet seems to see it this way, which makes me think that private miracles are rare. And nobody seems interested in seeing God through the scientific examination of miracles. People seem very interested in talking about what they believe, and why.

So we should all really be able to understand each other better than we do: NONE of us is interested in what any of the others thinks about God. We all want others to be interested in what WE think about God. But nobody is.

The subject is, therefore, fatiguing and pointless. Meanwhile, God exists and may want things from us, but we're all gazing at our own navels and angry at our companions for gazing at theirs.

Nothing is more useless than another man's religion.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-27   6:05:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: Vicomte13 (#233)

So we should all really be able to understand each other better than we do: NONE of us is interested in what any of the others thinks about God. We all want others to be interested in what WE think about God. But nobody is.

That describes you perfectly. Not everyone else.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-27   8:48:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: Vicomte13 (#233) (Edited)

So we should all really be able to understand each other better than we do: NONE of us is interested in what any of the others thinks about God. We all want others to be interested in what WE think about God. But nobody is.

Certainly a very true statement for all of us. The only exception being a desire to understand the faith of others for the purpose figuring out how expose flaws that can be used to try to convert them.

Kinda reminds me of the T-shirt that reads: "The professional sports team from MY general area can easily defeat the professional sports team from YOUR general area".

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-27   9:53:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: A K A Stone (#234)

That describes you perfectly. Not everyone else.

I think it does. You've railed on Vic quite a bit over what he believes. Perhaps you do care what he believes but only for the purposes of deriding him for it. You certainly aren't interesting in exploring what he believes constructively, looking to enlighten your own beliefs. Just like him, Liberator, and myself, you are convinced that you are right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

That is what Vic has said. And he is correct on that. In that way all 4 of us are really of the same mold, like probably everyone else on the planet, with the possible exception of professional psychiatrists.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-27   10:00:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: A K A Stone (#234)

That describes you perfectly. Not everyone else.

I am a dark mirror of you.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-27   10:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: Pinguinite (#236)

I sure have and will continue to do so. I find it odd that someone who claims they follow Jesus says the book about him is mostly lies and not God's word. Vic like you have your own custom religion on an island not inhabited by anyone else. Vic isn't even a real.catholic. Vic God is whatever Vic imagines. Vic doesn't believe me.but I like him. That us why I converse with him. He is interesting and I believe has good intentions.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-27   10:35:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: Vicomte13 (#230)

Really? Those are SATANIST Commandments?

Well, I agree with all of them, and would take some of them quite a bit further than that.

Yup, real deal.

Remember though -- the insidious part of Satanic/demonic deception is blending just enough truth with lies.

For the record, the rest of the "Satanic Commandments" are vicious.

There is nothing virtuous or merciful or benevolent about their ethics; just raw self-interest and selfishness.

And lastly, above all else -- Satan/demons LIE.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-27   11:47:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: Vicomte13, Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#233) (Edited)

We should all really be able to understand each other better than we do: NONE of us is interested in what any of the others thinks about God.

I agree with your first statement. But yes, *some* of us ARE "interested" in what others think of God or exchanging theories on "Life-after-Life". Ping and I have proven that. *I* value *your* belief -- even if we don't fully agree on the details.

The subject is, therefore, fatiguing and pointless.

Not at all. And demonstratively not what the Apostles, disciples and Jesus Himself thought, did they?

Nothing is more useless than another man's religion.

IF you see someone who tells you that according to their "religion" they must walk straight off a cliff, would you let them or attempt to convince them otherwise?

As an aside Stone -- could you kindly refrain from haranguing Vic? Isn't there a point where you've made your opinions clear? He's a good man who just happens to disagree with your faith, my faith, and most others' faith here at your forum. I'm hardly one to referee any respective individual beefs -- BUT, let's ratchet it down, ok?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-27   12:03:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: Liberator (#239)

Just because someone calls himself a "Satanist" doesn't mean he really worships Satan.

My bet would be that most Satanists don't really think there IS a Satan, and call themselves Satanists to piss off the religious whom they don't like.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-27   12:48:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: Vicomte13 (#241)

Just because someone calls himself a "Satanist" doesn't mean he really worships Satan.

It's semantics, isn't it?

"Satan" is referred to by several names in the Bible, by God:

Abaddon
Revelation 9:11

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-27   12:55:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: Vicomte13 (#241) (Edited)

My bet would be that most Satanists don't really think there IS a Satan, and call themselves Satanists to piss off the religious whom they don't like.

Probably partially true in cases.

If so, they are merely emulating and obeying their master. Enmity, spite and hate are after all innate traits of evil.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-27   12:57:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: Pinguinite, Vicomte13 (#231) (Edited)

...My sister considers the tilma of Guadalupe to be a real miracle and dismisses the Leininger account [recollections of being a WWII pilot] out of hand.

It seems Liberator has his miracle in the contemporary Bible.

Still some meat left over on what is quite a big bone.

First of all, till this very day my brother "remembers" being at Iwo Jima. Yes, we DID watch many a WW2 movie when we were kids. (for he record, my brother believes in God but is NOT religions. At all. And never discusses his beliefs.)

That said, there ARE such a phenomena as "false memories". There IS such a thing as "The Power of Suggestion".

How exactly do we define "miracle"?

Does it require a force of supernatural imposition that displaces "Natural Law" of physics (as we know it?)

Or can it be attributed to just astronomical stroke of good luck of a highly unlikely, near-impossible event?

Yes, there are also contemporary "miracles" that take place to "common" people; Not just to those documented in the Bible. EXCEPT these "commoner" miracles are performed without a tangible material/physical facilitation.

Within the smaller picture are actually the many documented accounts of the miracles performed by Jesus Christ, in the presence of many, Documented by several sources. These occurred just 2,000 years ago.

Moreever, what of the many Old Testament miracles? Its historical accounts of places, people, and event stand up to scrutiny. Do we off-offhandedly dismiss them? And miracles of he times? If not, why not? If it's a matter of credibility, then NO "history" should be believed for actual "fact"...Which brings up the next question

How far in the past should "history" be considered "factual"?

With respect to the Big Picture at another level of "miracle", I'd submit that the microscopic "seed" of both human egg and process of fertilization...and that of any other seed grows into a mighty Sequoia or Blue Whale (containing a gazillion codes to a gazillion processes that both sustain and replicate future generations) IS A MIRACLE AT FACE VALUE.

Liberator  posted on  2018-07-25   15:44:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: Pinguinite (#161)

Again, it's [The Newton Model] about growth, not justice. Though justice can help facilitate growth. Under Newton, justice is a means of growth.

Under Christianity, not so much. In fact, perhaps not at all. Justice is instead, once served, the end of the line, one way or the other.

(For your consideration):

It seems you may have inadvertently and just maybe, unfairly distilled Christianity doctrine down to a caricature of itself.

Under Christianity, or "Christ-ianity", life can't be helped but be considered a "Test" of sorts" -- a Final Test at that -- except that the circumstances aren't always "fair". Fact is circumstances of life are mostly unequal AND unfair; Yet the ground-rules remain the same for all. IF we are aware of them (the heart/spirit it seems -- even devoid of formal "religion" has always been hard-wired with an innate awareness of "Good & Evil"; Right & Wrong. As well as "knowing" there is Something/Someone Greater than we.)

"Justice" IS a consideration for man, which confers a fairness and upheld standard of law and ethic based on morality. I'm sure you'd agree that this expectation would apply whether secular, Newtonian, or Christian life.

In Christian life, The Law also commands love, forgiveness, compassion, redemption, mercy. Christians are taught also to grow in wisdom, discipline and humility along the way in life to endure.

According to the Bible's record, documenting Adam's lineage (which Jesus Himself cites), pre-Flood man typically lived up to 700-900 (why that was is a discussion for a different thread). Post-Flood man's max life span was downgraded to @100-120 years. That's plenty of time to "grow" in wisdom", IF we make it a priority.

(Yes, as we know, in certain civilizations, the life span is cut in half or even less. Again I'd cite "extenuating circumstances" that The Almighty Judge would consider) In any case, inevitably comes death and an account of our life to the One who created us.)

"Growth". You'll note that we (all the major Abrahamic faiths) realize we possess just one lifetime in this moral coil with which to "git 'er done". Some take this notion more seriously than others; Some let the chips fall, hoping there is some "Universal Fairness & Justice" mechanism that forgives, forgets. Or as in the Newton Model or perhaps in other Karmic belief systems, interim souls are briefed and tutored on how to best "grow" as their lives are recycled, regenerating enough "growth" in learning to step up in a presumptive hierarchy or upgrade next life. (OR in other Karmic beliefs, the perp becomes "victim" in that "Universal Judicial System".

For those of us who believe our "Growth" is limited by our lifespan on this earth, on this mortal plane, there IS a sense of urgency or awareness. Although for many they run out of time (a "shortcoming" the Newton Model alleges to address.)

Time. Age. We've both likely noted that this is a reason TIME becomes of the essence for many older folks. When our mortal shells/body's start declining and degrading, it serves as "URGENT!" God's wake-up call to start reassessing and focusing on the right path; what's been expected from us the entire time (IF we've been blessed to live longer lives to begin with.)

Frankly, I haven't received or clearly understood answers to the following questions:

If "Growth" is the #1 Priority and Goal of the Newton Model, exactly in what sense or context is expected to "grow"? To what extent that would be considered meeting that goal? (what Authority established it? No, I still don't know what IS THE "Authority" of the Newton Model. Newton created a template for the Afterlife, but divulges no authors -- except apparently himself.) What lessons are to be "learned"?

Moreover, if the recycled life goes on and on (without resolution), might the subject also degrade instead of improve? Why would there be any sense of urgency in "getting it right" (however "right" is defined)? AT what point does the Newtonian Resolution reach its target or Final Resolution?

Is "Peace" projected to be found at its End Game? Love? Fellowship? What kind of Realm is expected? Is it an Edenic metaphysical dimension? Or is Earth the eternal destination (with different bodies?)

"Justice". Doesn't the notion preclude a standard of morality and ethics and Law that has been established and expected to have been followed and met to a certain degree? It can be said that "Judgement" precludes an ultimate Judge of said "Law" and extent to which has been deemed "ACCEPTABLE". Or a "Passing Grade".

For the God of the Bible, the Creator, There IS no standard of "Acceptable" or Passing Grade on His Report Card. We ALL "Fail". No man is sinless despite all of the good deeds, the virtuous growth of a lifetime, the good intentions. Hence we ALL must die. (at least once.)

On Judgment Day, ONLY a Merciful God ONLY through Jesus Christ gives all a "Passing Grade" or "Mulligan" for the Second Life aka "Eternity". Those are HIS words, HIS Guaranty. Why isn't Eternal Life and Paradise for Sinners abusing God's Law considered the ultimate gesture of "LOVE"?

Are there other paths to Eternal Life? One must be Judged. If God is the Judge of Judges, His fairness and justice may presumably rest on extenuating circumstances and a God who knows the Heart of All -- even before they were born.

Btw -- an aside...I seem to recall you questioning the source of food in the Afterlife or before The Fall. Do you recall? According to my recollection there was a question about death and perhaps "dead things" being the source of food.

Liberator  posted on  2018-07-25   17:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: Liberator (#244)

First of all, till this very day my brother "remembers" being at Iwo Jima. Yes, we DID watch many a WW2 movie when we were kids. (for he record, my brother believes in God but is NOT religions. At all. And never discusses his beliefs.)

That said, there ARE such a phenomena as "false memories". There IS such a thing as "The Power of Suggestion".

Of course there is. Even those who seem to recall things under hypnosis are, upon ending the session, quite often not confident that what they recalled was not something they simply imagined. Confirmation of such recollections, when possible, are often sought.

Moreever, what of the many Old Testament miracles? Its historical accounts of places, people, and event stand up to scrutiny. Do we off-offhandedly dismiss them? And miracles of he times? If not, why not? If it's a matter of credibility, then NO "history" should be believed for actual "fact"...Which brings up the next question

Under the Newton model, "miracles" can occur even if the one who seems to be the instigator of them has incorrect theological beliefs. That, in theory, could explain Biblical miracles being done "in the name of Jesus" or what have you, assuming they really occurred.

With respect to the Big Picture at another level of "miracle", I'd submit that the microscopic "seed" of both human egg and process of fertilization...and that of any other seed grows into a mighty Sequoia or Blue Whale (containing a gazillion codes to a gazillion processes that both sustain and replicate future generations) IS A MIRACLE AT FACE VALUE.

I think life itself could qualify as miraculous no matter how it came to be, even if via evolution. BTW, the Newton model does not rule out "intelligent design" of life on earth. Under that theory, a combination of evolution and intelligent, supernatural intervention is possible.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-26   9:43:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: Liberator (#245)

Under Christianity, or "Christ-ianity", life can't be helped but be considered a "Test" of sorts" -- a Final Test at that -- except that the circumstances aren't always "fair". Fact is circumstances of life are mostly unequal AND unfair;

One of the advantages of the Newton model: life can be said to always be fair at all times, no matter what happens, even being born with severe deformities, because every soul voluntarily accepted, in advance, the circumstances of a life being lived.

IF we are aware of them (the heart/spirit it seems -- even devoid of formal "religion" has always been hard-wired with an innate awareness of "Good & Evil"; Right & Wrong. As well as "knowing" there is Something/Someone Greater than we.)

Indeed, I agree. And this is supported under Newton, as this perception of morality is soul based -- something we have a sense of because of our subconscious knowledge and memories of life in the spirit world. It is not human based.

"Justice" IS a consideration for man, which confers a fairness and upheld standard of law and ethic based on morality. I'm sure you'd agree that this expectation would apply whether secular, Newtonian, or Christian life.

Sure, I would agree. Our human, earthly sense of justice could/would be a reflection of the morality we collectively brought with us from the spirit world.

In Christian life, The Law also commands love, forgiveness, compassion, redemption, mercy. Christians are taught also to grow in wisdom, discipline and humility along the way in life to endure.

In spite of obvious differences between the two, when it comes to morality, Christianity and the Newton model agree on just about everything.

According to the Bible's record, documenting Adam's lineage (which Jesus Himself cites), pre-Flood man typically lived up to 700-900 (why that was is a discussion for a different thread). Post-Flood man's max life span was downgraded to @100-120 years. That's plenty of time to "grow" in wisdom", IF we make it a priority.

Under Newton, 100 years is time to grow, but not nearly time enough to grow in all ways earthly life has to offer, which is the practical explanation behind why reincarnation is a reasonable consideration. We've all heard of the crazy elderly uncle that is always angry at people. For such a person, one lifetime has simply not been enough to overcome that vice. So why not grant a soul multiple lifetimes to overcome it? Under Newton, God's patience is eternal in this regard. Under Christianity, there's not, though there's no need to, as forgiveness is a prayer away.

Christianity has the doctrinal struggle of faith vs fruits of a believing heart. If someone is "saved" by confessing Jesus as personal savior, then goes on their life as they did before, immersed in sin with no practice of a changed heart, do they go to heaven upon death? You'll get different answers from different fundamentalists Christians, some arguing that once forgiven/always forgiven, another saying that perhaps not, as a changed life is evidence of one who was truly welcomed Jesus into their lives. Regardless of how you come down on that question, the debate exists.

Under Newton, the fruits of one's life is regarded strongly as evidence of spiritual growth. What one may pray at one moment in time (i.e. "Jesus forgive me..." is not, though at the same time, such a person is not condemned at life's end to eternal punishment. Instead, they have all the time they need. The number of lives spent in stagnation is a penalty unto itself for the soul in question, as they miss opportunities to grow (the sense of waste which is greatly amplified upon return to the spirit world as are all other regrets). Growth is something that we all want at the spiritual level as per the morality we all have inside as as you described earlier. Though that desire may be in conflict with the carnal temptations that come from human living.

(Yes, as we know, in certain civilizations, the life span is cut in half or even less. Again I'd cite "extenuating circumstances" that The Almighty Judge would consider)

Under Newton, some lives are so very short. But even short lives of a few years offer lessons, if even brief, so the tragedy of such a child dying is ultimately not there as it is under Christianity (and all Abrahamic faiths). That's another plus for the Newton model.

For those of us who believe our "Growth" is limited by our lifespan on this earth, on this mortal plane, there IS a sense of urgency or awareness.

Yes, of course it is. We are always a heartbeat away from departing life for good.

Frankly, I haven't received or clearly understood answers to the following questions:

I will do my best, though my answers (*my* answers) may very well not satisfy you.

If "Growth" is the #1 Priority and Goal of the Newton Model, exactly in what sense or context is expected to "grow"? To what extent that would be considered meeting that goal? (what Authority established it?

Please do consider the supposition that every soul is unfathomly (a new word perhaps) unique. As such, what constitutes "growth" is similarly unique to every soul. It would be why having a fixed yardstick by which to measure the growth of all souls would be futile. It could perhaps be much akin to attempting to measure an IQ with a number, when the reality is that intelligence comes in a great many forms. One who is exceptionally brilliant with spacial comprehension might be terrible lacking in numeric capabilities, or one brilliant with numbers terrible with reading comprehension. Granted, we can often tell if a person is generally intelligent or not, but attempting to measure all people's intelligence with a number is ultimately fallacious. In the same way, measuring a soul's progress with a similar numeric or binary value would be futile.

No, I still don't know what IS THE "Authority" of the Newton Model.

You have latched on to this "Authority" concept, but I would contend that even though the concept is satisfying to you as a way of thinking about things, it is nonetheless something you depend upon too much (though that obviously won't sway you!)

Newton created a template for the Afterlife, but divulges no authors -- except apparently himself.)

What answer to authorship would satisfy you? A name or set of names?

What lessons are to be "learned"?

In general, the same as under Christianity. To love, forgive, etc.

Moreover, if the recycled life goes on and on (without resolution), might the subject also degrade instead of improve?

In a sense, yes. And it does happen. One born into an exceptionally soft life can "degrade" in a sense. There's one example Newton mentions of a soul living the life of a Chinese empress who had complete power to use all that her people could provide for any selfish benefit, likely including power to enslave and kill upon a whim. This soul spent the next 500 years just getting back to where she was before that life. Though on the other hand, a stronger, more experienced and developed soul would likely have been able to live a life exposed to such power and privilege without being consumed by it, at least to such a degree as this soul was. (I.e. s/he would have been able to much better resist the "One Ring To Rule Them All"). So it could be said that this particular soul that "degraded" simply wasn't very strong to begin with, so the life as a self-aggrandizing emperor was productive in exposing that weakness. So in that sense, did that soul, even in this case, truly "degrade"? It all depends on how you look at things. Again, each soul is profoundly unique, and measuring the progress of a soul can't be readily done with a simple yardstick. I suppose it could be said we do not all grow in the same direction, as it were. If it were otherwise, then what is it about us that would be so divinely special?

Why would there be any sense of urgency in "getting it right" (however "right" is defined)?

Maybe there wouldn't be. If there was no urgency, would that be a deal killer for belief purposes? Ultimately the only urgency is for the soul in question. We have soulmates (plural) whom all may be progressing faster than we are so that would provide some degree of urgency. At the soul level, we all come to earth for the purpose of growing so upon return, if we have failed to do so, there's a profound sense of waste. At least for the more experienced souls. Younger souls, according to Newton, don't really come to actively grow. Those types are just in the equivalent of nursery school, just getting an introduction to how things feel, much as human babies are learning about gravity and what hurts and what doesn't. More advanced souls want to improve themselves just as people are inspired to excel in education with universities and masters and such.

AT what point does the Newtonian Resolution reach its target or Final Resolution?

For a specific soul? Again that question suggests a "yardstick" type of measurement. I can't answer that, and never will be able to do so. If you ask in a more universal sense on par with the Christian version of the final judgment, the golden city, Satan and all fallen angels gone from our lives being bound and thrown into the lake of fire... no, there's no final resolution I know of. New souls are constantly created (born of God in the spirit world), which is why earth has souls of all experience and development levels walking upon it, so progress continues without any end I can reason exists. Even our universe, created for the purpose of letting us experience physical life as humans (or whatever other comparable alien race that may exist in the cosmos), created with a big bang and destined, according to our best science today, to eventually fizzle out as dark energy eventually rips even atoms to smithereens, can be replaced with another big bang. Under Newton, multiple universes can exist, and he does cite one client referring to alternate dimensions. There is no limit. One could take all the infinality of God that is present even under Christianity and apply it to both space AND time, and even into universes and find no "Final Resolution". So while yes, under the Bible, there is a "Final Resolution" for all things in the Golden city described in Revelation. Under Newton, any "final resolution" likely does not exist in a universal sense. The spirit world, like God, and consequently us as souls, have no end, not in time, not in space. We will outlast not only this universe which is some 13 billion years old and has perhaps another 100 billion left, but all others that follow.

Is "Peace" projected to be found at its End Game? Love? Fellowship? What kind of Realm is expected? Is it an Edenic metaphysical dimension? Or is Earth the eternal destination (with different bodies?)

No, endless reincarnation is clearly not our ultimate destiny. A time comes when each soul has progress sufficiently such that further incarnations provide no meaningful growth potential so it would be a waste of time. If such souls were to do so, they would be perceived as especially charismatic and lovely persons and understandably & rightly so. They probably would not run for political office, likely not be televangelists or otherwise be notable people in the media in any way. They would be the quiet types dedicating their life to helping others that only a few people would know. They may even have some supernatural ability to heal others or touch other lives in other supernatural ways. But I digress...

Newton does describe in his final book a client that seems to be very advanced and perhaps relatively close to finishing up earthly incarnations, and it seems that our eventual destiny, though perhaps not even our "final" destiny is to rejoin God from whom we have, as souls, been born from in our very soulful infancy. And it may well be something that cannot be done until we have progressed far beyond even what progress earthly life can offer us. This could be considered a parallel of sorts to the Christian "cleansing of sin" that is required to enter God's presense, only "sin" would be replaced in concept with "weakness" or "undeveloped in virtue". In essence, instead of being cleansed of something undesirable, (though yes, there's that in the Newton model when it comes to vices such as anger and jealousy) it's more about expanding into the fullness of virtue through growth. We start out as "baby" souls and grow into very powerful and unique entities unlike any other than has preceded us and any other that is yet to come, and when we rejoin God, we do so as a unique contribution to God, which is in part all souls that have ever done so before. In that state, we are part of God and, I surmise, contribute to the creation/birth of yet more souls. And while that cycle continues, there may yet be even more awaiting us even beyond that. Our human minds are woefully inadequate to understand and perceive the spiritual answers on this point that we want.

"Justice". Doesn't the notion preclude a standard of morality and ethics and Law that has been established and expected to have been followed and met to a certain degree? It can be said that "Judgement" precludes an ultimate Judge of said "Law" and extent to which has been deemed "ACCEPTABLE". Or a "Passing Grade".

Hopefully I answered this (though no doubt unsatisfactorily) that the "standard" or "yardstick" or "IQ" method of measuring a soul's state is fallacious in the Newton model.

On Judgment Day, ONLY a Merciful God ONLY through Jesus Christ gives all a "Passing Grade" or "Mulligan" for the Second Life aka "Eternity". Those are HIS words, HIS Guaranty. Why isn't Eternal Life and Paradise for Sinners abusing God's Law considered the ultimate gesture of "LOVE"?

It is a gesture of love. The Christian doctrine of God giving his only son for us has that moral of ultimate love, as does the decision of Jesus to accept the horrendous death on the cross for both God and us. It's a display of love, a message of love, that matches the love in the Newton model. Both under Christianity and Newton, we are called to love and sacrifice for others, though under Newton, we are to do so wisely, and sometimes that means letting people suffer in circumstances that are of their own making. And *THAT* is, perhaps, how God expresses love for us under Newton. He lets us suffer in circumstances of our own making too, because that is how we learn. And for someone that is given to anger, what could be a more fitting manner of love than to see us back on earth, living life after life mired in anger, waiting patiently for us to overcome such a vice?

Sure, God could just say, screw it, you've got this anger issue but I'm just going to wipe it away. You don't have to over come it. Just join us at the table, there's your harp so just grab that, have a seat, start playing it and join the party.

No. We don't that under Newton. It's instead something like: You did a little better this time, or maybe instead, you learned a bit that last life, didn't you? Now go back and try again. You'll get it! I have faith in ya!

Tell me, Liberator, which of those two scenarios is more compelling in virtue?

We as parents love to see our children grow, do we not? Why is it so unrealistic for God to want us to grow as well? Parents don't want grown up kids living in the house rent free for the rest of their lives, so why would God only want the equivalent of 4 year olds to never have to even learn how to add?

This is just one of many Newton concepts that just makes so. much. more. sense.

Are there other paths to Eternal Life?

Your question implies paths exist and that Eternal death exists. Free will always exists, and it does seem some souls, sadly, undergo some very difficult times. It's even possible some choose destruction under Newton, though that's uncertain. But I think the vast majority of souls desire to grow and progress, and each is on its own path.

Btw -- an aside...I seem to recall you questioning the source of food in the Afterlife or before The Fall. Do you recall? According to my recollection there was a question about death and perhaps "dead things" being the source of food.

I challenged the creationist view of earth and Eden where death "did not exist". But if this refers to physical/biological death down to the cellular level, whether human or not, then it seems it would be difficult for Adam and Eve to eat much food as digestion of most foods would require death of that material to occur. I suppose fruits could be considered non-living at the time of consumption, though even in that case, they need to be alive to grow in the first place so whether such plant material dies during consumption or before hand, "death" of those cells would occur by necessity.

Separately, hair, surface skin and fingernails are, in the human body today, dead cellular material. If there was "no death" in Eden before the fall, would this mean that Adam and Eve had no hair, that their surface skin was alive, and that their fingernails were also alive? Perhaps they never grew. Also, if the command of God to multiply given before the fall, was Eve expected to give birth without any cellular death occurring? That seems quite a trick, all considered.

It's an academic challenge on my part for those subscribing to the literal Biblical story of creation.

Quite the dialog. Still meat on the old bone indeed!

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-26   12:29:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: Pinguinite (#247) (Edited)

Quite the dialog. Still meat on the old bone indeed!

Yes it is. Can't even see the bone ;-)

I appreciate and enjoyed your responses. It's always seems to be good food for thought for both of us.

(And thanks for addressing the pre-fall Creationist view of "Death" and challenge to the molecular level. AND adding an addendum regarding "Go and multiply...")

I'll be ruminating and eventually responding. (Likely in parts)

Liberator  posted on  2018-07-26   16:03:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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