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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 35907
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#7. To: A K A Stone (#0)

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

Hmmm...I see their assertions here but was unaware that anyone considered 19 years margin of error in carbon dating to be significant. No one ever considered it that accurate to begin with.

Nor do they detail how they think a difference of 19 years would give us more meaningful info about the size and distribution of Solomon's kingdom. Or why that would have a modern geopolitical impact.

Maybe there is something to this academic dispute but the article hasn't fleshed it out for the reader.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   0:26:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Tooconservative (#7)

Hmmm...I see their assertions here but was unaware that anyone considered 19 years margin of error in carbon dating to be significant.

It's not even an eye blink when related to the age of the planet.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-06-07   8:37:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: sneakypete (#15)

It's not even an eye blink when related to the age of the planet.

Sure but science doesn't date the earth's age by carbon dating. They use other means of providing an estimate.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   9:56:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Tooconservative (#20)

Sure but science doesn't date the earth's age by carbon dating. They use other means of providing an estimate.

The means used rely on radioactive decay, which is a function of "c".

There are two things to note.

First: radioactive decay rates are affected by the strength of solar output. We don't know why, but it has been observed in some experiments.

Second:

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-07   13:37:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#21)

Scientific American:

It was not until 1926, when (under the influence of Arthur Holmes, whose name recurs throughout this story) the National Academy of Sciences adopted the radiometric timescale, that we can regard the controversy as finally resolved. Critical to this resolution were improved methods of dating, which incorporated advances in mass spectrometry, sampling and laser heating. The resulting knowledge has led to the current understanding that the earth is 4.55 billion years old.

That takes us to the end of this series of papers but not to the end of the story. As with so many good scientific puzzles, the question of the age of the earth resolves itself on more rigorous examination into distinct components. Do we mean the age of the solar system, or of the earth as a planet within it, or of the earth-moon system, or the time since formation of the earth’s metallic core, or the time since formation of the earliest solid crust? Such questions remain under active investigation, using as clues variations in isotopic distribution, or anomalies in mineral composition, that tell the story of the formation and decay of long-vanished short-lived isotopes. Isotopic ratios between stable isotopes both on the earth and in meteorites are coming under increasingly close scrutiny, to see what they can tell us about the ultimate sources of the very atoms that make up our planet. We can look forward to new answers—and new questions. That’s how science works.

Carbon dating plays little if any role in current estimates of the earth's age. It's too flawed.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   13:46:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Tooconservative (#22)

Carbon dating plays little if any role in current estimates of the earth's age. It's too flawed.

It's not just that. All of the Carbon 14 is gone after 50,000 years, so you can't use it to tell the difference between 51,000 and 500 million years old: zero is zero.

Carbon dating no longer provides any information before 48,000 BC or so.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-07   23:26:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

It's not just that. All of the Carbon 14 is gone after 50,000 years, so you can't use it to tell the difference between 51,000 and 500 million years old: zero is zero.

Carbon dating no longer provides any information before 48,000 BC or so.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this since it is not true. It is not zero C14 after 50,000 years at all.

We have methods of carbon dating that go back as far as 75,000 years and we could develop it further if we wanted to. We just don't have any real need to do so as we have other isotopes to measure and other dating methods we use.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-08   3:08:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Tooconservative (#36)

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this since it is not true. It is not zero C14 after 50,000 years at all.

We have methods of carbon dating that go back as far as 75,000 years and we could develop it further if we wanted to. We just don't have any real need to do so as we have other isotopes to measure and other dating methods we use.

I keep repeating it because it is true.

Carbon-14 has a half life of 5730 years, under presently observed conditions, and there isn't all that much of it to begin with. In living tissue, there is about 1 C-14 atom for every trillion Carbon atoms. One part per trillion, 1 C-14 atom for every 10 to the 12th Carbon atoms. That's a low concentration.

Let's consider a human body. By weight, carbon makes up only 18.5% of the human body. So a 150 pound living man is composed of 27.75 pounds of carbon, 99% of that carbon is C-12, 1% is C-14. So, 2.775 times 10 to the negative 11th power pounds of C-14 atoms are in the living man, which is to say that there are 623,879,200,000,000,000 C-14 atoms in a living 150 pound man. Once he stops breathing and stops eating, there is no more C-14 being added.

The half life is 5730. So, in 5730 years there will be 311,939,600,000,000,000 C-14 atoms left in his remains. Of course, if there are any remains, they will have been diluted by whatever is preserving them.

In 11,460 years there will be 155,969,800,000,000,000 C-14 atoms left

In 17,190 years there will be 77,984,900,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 22,920 years, there will be 38,992,450,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 28,650 years there will be 19,496,225,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 34,380 years there will be 9,748,112,500,000,000 C-14s left.

In 40,110 years there will be 4,874,056,250,000,000 C-14s left.

In 45,840 years there will be 2,437,028,125,000,000 C-14s left.

In 51,610 years there will be 1,218,514,962,500,000 C-14s left.

That isn't much left from the original same, less than two-tenths of one percent.

And of course this assumes that one is carbon dating a whole, intact human corpse, a 150 pound sample. Radiocarbon dating is not done on 150 pound samples. The machines can't hold anything like that. The sample sizes used are 100 GRAM samples - THAT is what fits into the machines.

So, let's take the remains of that 150 pound man and look at the actual sample size we can test. 150 pounds is 67200 grams. We're only going to be able to test .0014880952380952 of that sample.

So, at the 51,610 year point, there are only 1,813,266,313,244 C-14 atoms left in the testable sample. That's small, but detectable.

Go one cycle further, to 57,340 years, and the number of atoms in the total sample drops to the 902,633,156,622 range, which is quite a bit smaller than the US budget in dollars, and at the bare limits of our ability to detect.

Using very long test times and super-sensitive equipment, that have been able to manage to extend Carbon-14 testing to 75,000 years. No farther.

It is not hard to see why. At 63,070 years you've only got 453 billion C-14s left in your whole sample.

At 68,800 years, you're down to 226.6 billion C-14s left.

And at 74,530 years, you're down to 113.3 billion atoms, in a sample size of 5 septillion atoms, which is to say 1 part in 24 trillion. Our technology is not capable of reliably sorting that out.

You can see, then, why C-14 cannot possibly be used to date dinosaurs. The last dinosaurs are said to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

Let's keep running our math.

At 80,260 years, there are 56.65 billion C-14s left in our sample.

At 85,990 years there are 28.325 billion C-14s left in our sample. We're already well below our threshold of detection, but they are there, at least theoretically. We cannot confirm this by direct observation, but we have to assume it is so.

At 91,720 years where are 14.16 billion atoms left.

At 97,450 years, 7.08 billion.

At 103,180 years, 3.54 billion.

Go back 57,300 more years, to 160,480 years, and you're down to 3.45 MILLION C-14s left. You're trying to find a single marked grain of sand on the California cost.

Go back another 57,300 years, and you have 3376 Carbon 14 atoms left in your sample.

Go back yet another 57,300 years, and there are 4 Carbon 14 atoms left. Four. How far back are we now? 275,080 years.

Go back 5730 more years, and there are 2 C-14 Atoms left. Another 5730 years, and there is 1 left. By 291,570 years back, there are no C-14 atoms left in the sample. Zero. Null.

Long before that point you passed any possibility of detection.

That is why I "keep saying" that radio-carbon dating cannot be used to date the dinosaurs.

There is NO Carbon 15 left from 65 million years ago. None. THEORETICALLY, in the whole world, there are a few atoms of it, maybe. To detect them would be like trying to find a aingle marked grain of sand randomly scattered on one of the world's beaches.

Did I need to go through all of that? Yes, I think I did. There is a pugnacious attitude around here about many things. Sometimes you have to brute force down to zero to demonstrate the point. I will now reiterate it explicitly:

ASSUMING that rates of radioactive decay are constant, and ASSUMING that the dinosaurs died out some 65 million years ago, it is categorically impossible to use C-14 to date dinosaur bones. 65 million year old Carbon 14 does not exist. At all. It has all decayed. Only theoretically is there some left. This is not provable, because it is impossible to design a machine that is so sensitive. In any case, Carbon-14 us COMPLETELY useless for dating dinosaurs. There is NO USE WHATSOEVER for C-14. It isn't simply "impracticable", it is impossible, full stop.

At 60 iterations, 343,800 years, the last C-14 atom in that 150 pound man's remains broke down. There is none left.

Coal is said to be ancient vegetation. Assuming that is true, there is a reason it is used as the inert background substrate for C-14 dating. There is no detectable Carbon-14 in it. This is not because our machines are not sensitive enough. It is because all of the C-14 has decayed. That's why it is completely useless for dating dinosaur bones.

And that's why I keep saying so: because it IS so. And also because the resistance here has been a little too fierce given the subject matter.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   11:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#39)

Did I need to go through all of that? Yes, I think I did.

Nope.

And that's why I keep saying so: because it IS so.

But it is not true, no matter how many keystrokes you expend.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-08   13:28:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Tooconservative (#40) (Edited)

But it is not true, no matter how many keystrokes you expend.

Yes, it is true. It is impossible to date anything a few million years old with Carbon-14, because there's no Carbon-14 left in it. It has all decayed away. It isn't there.

Back past 50,000 years; 75,000 years with herculean efforts at the edge of detectability, we do not have the equipment to detect it.

But no equipment in the world can detect Carbon-14 in a dinosaur, because the dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago, and there is no Carbon-14 left on earth from that long ago, it has entirely decayed.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   13:30:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Vicomte13 (#41)

...dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago...

The agenda-driven Fake Science Cult/Communitah based on wishful thinking has been manipulating sandbagging and striking evidence to the contrary. It is impossible for blood cells to survive "millions" of years, never mind several thousands.

THIS SHOULD have been front page news but wasn't:

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-08   13:51:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Liberator (#43)

It is impossible for blood cells to survive "millions" of years, never mind several thousands.

This is a really interesting point.

It is a serious tremor that cracks the solidity of a theory.

It's an aspect of the subject that creates its own logic tree.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   17:17:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#48)

It is a serious tremor that cracks the solidity of a theory.

It's an aspect of the subject that creates its own logic tree.

It does crack that theory...Maybe even smashes it to bits. A Game-Changer.

That "aspect of the subject" and "logic" lead straight to only one conclusion: The Great Flood was likely way it all went down in Genesis...and...occurred only several *thousands* of years ago.

It's noted that dinosaurs, historically referred to in several ancient civilization texts as "great lizards" and "dragons" (also depicted in ancient paintings in both the Old and New World) indeed existed *at the same time as man*.

This notion of course presents a dilemma for the high priests of science and its True Believers, shattering the Theory/Religion of Evolution at its foundation. It also forces the intellectually honest to re-calibrate and re-assess both "History" and Science" as taught in the past century and a half.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-08   18:39:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Liberator (#52)

It does crack that theory...Maybe even smashes it to bits. A Game-Changer.

That "aspect of the subject" and "logic" lead straight to only one conclusion: The Great Flood was likely way it all went down in Genesis...and...occurred only several *thousands* of years ago.

It's noted that dinosaurs, historically referred to in several ancient civilization texts as "great lizards" and "dragons" (also depicted in ancient paintings in both the Old and New World) indeed existed *at the same time as man*.

This notion of course presents a dilemma for the high priests of science and its True Believers, shattering the Theory/Religion of Evolution at its foundation. It also forces the intellectually honest to re-calibrate and re-assess both "History" and Science" as taught in the past century and a half.

It allows the possibility of those things, yes.

On the other hand, it also opens the possibility that not all of the dinosaurs went extinct after the great meteor strike of 65 million years ago, that pockets of them remained alive, and continued to populate parts of the earth afterwards. Certainly other animals alive at the time still exist, and there is no particular reason to believe that EVERY dinosaur EVERYWHERE died off as the result of the meteor strike. Crocodiles and Alligators survived, why not some dinosaurs, here and there?

Certainly some large mammals that survived the eons eventually perished as the conditions continued to change. Example: wooly mammoths and sabre- toothed tigers. They were not hunted to extinction by man. Hell, men today with planes, trucks and high-powered rifles haven't completely wiped out the elephants or the rhinos. Men with spears simply did not have the numbers or skill to wipe out a major elephant species.

The mammoths died out because of climate change. The identical thing could well be true of the dinosaurs.

Now, of course, this is heresy to those who have established that the dinosaurs "must" have ALL perished 65 million years ago. but there is no real imperative for that to be true. SOME may have lingered on here and there - turtles and crocks made it. There MIGHT still be something looking like armored fish of old deep down into the abysses of the sea.

If we've got blood cells and connective tissue from inside dinosaur bones - and we do - that doesn't perforce mean that there was no evolution, or a worldwide flood. It could just mean that the meteor didn't get ALL the dinosaurs, that some soldiered on - indeed, that some of the dragon stories of legend are real encounters between humans and dinosaurs.

Certainly the intact cells from within dinosaur bones would tend to indicate that.

Of course, then again, the inside of bones that were encased in mud don't have much oxygen, and without the oxygen they may not have decayed. Certainly we have feathers and scales and other things that otherwise decay contained in amber, because of the hypoxic nature thereof.

Who can say?

All of these things are possible. For my part, they don't engage my emotions, because I'm not a sola scripturalist, so the truth or mere poetic nature of Genesis 1 doesn't bear on my religious beliefs pretty much at all.

I would say that my basic ASSUMPTION is that God made the world, evolution is how he did it, and these dinosaur soft tissues we have means that all of the dinosaurs didn't die out 65 million years ago, that pockets of them survived, and that we have soft tissue because those particular dinosaurs died out more recently. This would fit the evidence as I see it. None of it has any bearing on what I think about God. It does mean that the Bible isn't a scientific text, but I never assumed it was.

In a similar vein, not being a Sola Scripturalist, I think the only really authoritative parts of the Bible - the LAW as it were - are Jesus' commandments - what to do and what not to do. And I think that obedience or departure from those is what destermines the status during stages of the afterlife. I do think that what happens in the afterlife was revealed, by Jesus, and that there are elements of what he said that are corroborated by Near Death Experiences.

Science and religion don't conflict in my mind. Of course Genesis 1 and Standard Theory conflict, but Genesis 1 is sacred poetry, not a science text.

That's how I look at it.

Your religious beliefs are differently configured, and anything that disturbs the absolute literal truth of any part of the Scriptures, as you read them, causes the whole thing to fall apart.

The Scriptures are not the basis for my knowledge of God. They add some detail about what God wants, mainly through Jesus.

Our religions are different. Yours does not bother me. I understand why you believe what you do. As long as you don't kill people I'm content to share the earth with you in peace, and we'll find out the details in the end, I reckon.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   18:58:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13 (#53)

On the other hand, it also opens the possibility that not all of the dinosaurs went extinct after the great meteor strike of 65 million years ag

How were dinosaurs running around before Adam and Eve?

Was there death before sin?

Why do you believe the Earth is millions of years old?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   7:59:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#57)

How were dinosaurs running around before Adam and Eve?

Was there death before sin?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Vic...

It seems Vic is on record here as considering Genesis as high-minded, perhaps even divinely-inspired "poetry" and not the Word of God.

Ergo that would mean God's Timeline as narrated in Genesis (as well as "sin" and "death" not being in-effect until after Adam and Eve's Fall) would not be taken literally.

For what it's worth, Jesus Himself pretty heavily quoted Genesis.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-09   11:57:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Liberator (#66)

It seems Vic is on record here as considering Genesis as high-minded, perhaps even divinely-inspired "poetry" and not the Word of God.

Poetry was my term, not Vic's, though he's free to agree with me, of course.

Ergo that would mean God's Timeline as narrated in Genesis (as well as "sin" and "death" not being in-effect until after Adam and Eve's Fall) would not be taken literally.

Though it's a claim that the Genesis timeline is "God's Timeline" as opposed to a timeline of man that is purported to be God's.

If I were to nitpick about death existing before sin, the human body experiences cell death as a normal function of healthy human living. Hair, for example is dead tissue. If no death existed before sin, would this mean that before the fall, Adam and Eve either had no hair, or if they did, it was living tissue?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-09   12:56:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone, Liberator (#74)

To even have the discussion, we'd have to go through the definitions of God, life, spirit, sin, death and inspiration. That's just for starters.

And because what I think departs from various orthodoxies on each point, I get a lot of abuse when I write on religion. When I speak of my own direct experiences with God, I get ridicule and scorn, that continues on afterwards.

Essentially, I don't believe in the traditional Christian religion, or any other religion, and I don't believe in "Science", practiced as a modern religion either. The factual and logical errors of each are obvious to me, and they rule out belief. I have talked with God many times, and experienced major miracles, so I know that God is as a matter of empirical fact, such that I have to always include the reality of God in all scientific analysis or I cease to be a real scientist.

Unlike many, I do not denigrate the ancient texts, and I think they were inspired by God. But I don't think "inspired" means what traditionalists think it means.

Who really wants to know what I believe? Probably nobody, really. What you want is the opportunity to draw me into a discussion of religion, so you can hector me about the things you believe that I don't. What good is that?

Honestly, what is the point? There is nothing more useless in this world than another man's religion. Yours are useless to me, and my own is useless to you. So why argue about it? If you really want to know my religious beliefs, we can take it to another thread and discuss it there. I certainly don't care what you believe, in precisely the same way I don't care what sex turns you on. Your religion is of no interest or use to me. I'm pretty sure the same is true in the other direction. If I'm wrong and you really, truly want to know what I believe and why, then start a thread with that as the topic, and I will go there and tell you. I'm not holding my breath. Nobody cares. Why would they?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-09   18:04:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Essentially, I don't believe in the traditional Christian religion

Ok. That is all I need to know. You don't claim to be a follower of Christ or a Christian as it is called.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   18:39:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: A K A Stone (#77)

You simply cannot get the truth straight. I follow Christ. I do not follow him in the way that you do. I do not believe in the same hierarchy of authorities that you do. I do not have the same religion you do. I follow Christ.

You follow Christ in a different way. And the way you do it looks to my eyes a lot like not following Christ at all.

Your way is just A way. It is not THE way. Even in traditional Christianity, your way is a fringe element.

The way I follow Christ is adequately respectful of a certain set of norms for me to not be thrown out of the Catholic Church. My actual beliefs about many things differ somewhat from Catholicism, but that doesn't matter to the rest of Catholics.

To follow Christ, in my estimation, means to carefully read exactly what he said, to figure out what he meant by it, and then to do what he said. That is what it means: it means to keep his commandments. It does NOT mean to elevate a book to the status of God. It does NOT mean to insist on some faith alone versus works doctrine. It does NOT mean asserting all sorts of thing about a Trinity that Christ never taught. It doesn't even mean WORSHIPPING Christ. It means doing what Jesus said. Full stop. That's "following Christ". Whatever else you want to add to it is your religion. Catholics add a lot. I smile at it, perhaps genuflect to it, but don't confuse it with following Christ.

The thing that strikes me most about your particular religion is that you DON'T follow Christ. You assert a bunch of things that are the opposite of Christ, but you very much worship that book of yours.

And you just can't bear to speak directly to what I say. You always have to add a lie to it, to assert some additional thing I did not say and don't believe. You are not able to directly address the things I say. You always erect a straw man alongside it and hit that. Which means that you write vexatious things, but you're not really talking to ME at all, you're attacking a dummy that you've set up and CALLED me, but that isn't actually what I said or believe.

To me, it's really quite dishonest of you to do this, but you love to call ME the liar. It's striking, really, how far off the path that Christ laid out that you are. That's your religion, and your religion does not to my eyes appear to be about following Christ. It's about setting up a dummy of Christ who is not very much like Christ, and then worshipping the dummy instead of listening to and following the man.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-09   20:10:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

The thing that strikes me most about your particular religion is that you DON'T follow Christ

Says the man who prays to a dead sinner. And ignores scripture and follows the tradition of a man (men)that has stolen Gods title of "holy father". MY shortcomings doesn't excuse your ignoring the plain teachings of the scriptures. Or your blasphemous words saying the bible isn't the whole word of I'd without error.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   22:10:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: A K A Stone (#80)

MY shortcomings doesn't excuse your ignoring the plain teachings of the scriptures.

I don't. I simply do not believe that the Scriptures are the final authority or revelation to mankind. The part of the Scriptures that matters is what Jesus said.

The bible is not the complete word of God and is not without error. It never says that it is complete or without error. Your religion has made that up, and you believe it. That is called idolatry. Your view of the Bible turns it into an idol.

My primary problem with you is that you profess Christ but you totally ignore him with regards to the poor. My secondary problem is the whole self-rightoeusness business.

You can believe as you believe.

God pulled me out of a lake and raised two animals from the dead in my presence, and talks to me sometimes. I'm sticking with him.

You don't offer anything true, just superstition, idolatry, harsh politics and anger.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   8:12:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Vicomte13 (#83)

The bible is not the complete word of God and is not without error.

I guess that depends on defining the word of notion of "complete". And exactly what might fulfill its completion.

If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are? Are they verses that could be construed as ambiguous?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-11   15:27:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Liberator (#122)

If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are?

You directed to Vic, but I'll answer. Passages that state God gets angry & jealous. To me it's wholly contradictory to other passages about him being all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc.

I see those passages as "anthropomorphism", which is a literary technique of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human entity, in this case, God. When a respected leader tells his people that God is angry, it gives that leader great power to tell his people they must do some bidding, as people will act out of fear. So there is a very human political motive for ancients to propagate the idea that God can get angry, and it was certainly done in many, if not most or all other cultures throughout history.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   1:54:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Pinguinite, Vicomte13 (#129)

(If you believe there are errors in scripture, can you specify which verses they are? )
You directed to Vic, but I'll answer. Passages that state God gets angry & jealous. To me it's wholly contradictory to other passages about him being all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc.

I see those passages as "anthropomorphism", which is a literary technique of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human entity, in this case, God.

I don't subscribe to the "contradictory" notion of God's "anger and jealousy"; It seems you've explained why Scripture describes this technique in your following quote of, "anthropomorphism".

Doesn't any parent run that same gamut of emotion as they watch their child grow up? After all, we are just extensions of God the Father. We may even know beforehand that our child WILL fall, but the child must learn. Then we pick him up.

God's "anger" and "jealousy"-- again, in human relate-able terms. Maybe this analogy works for you; Say your child has joined an evil, kooky cult and appears to be embracing it. One emotion might be repulsiveness, others anger, disappointment, and..."jealously" in the sense that you can't believe he/she would choose cultist-enslavement over freedom.

Back to the language used in scripture -- Why wouldn't God explain language so we could understand it in "human" context? Somewhat analogous -- Germans and French both have words for things that don't exists for the English equivalent and vice versa.

When a respected leader tells his people that God is angry, it gives that leader great power to tell his people they must do some bidding, as people will act out of fear. So there is a very human political motive for ancients to propagate the idea that God can get angry, and it was certainly done in many, if not most or all other cultures throughout history.

I'm not sure how your interpretation of an interpretation is construed as scriptural "error".

There IS such a thing as "righteous anger", no doubt. As far as any "bidding" that's done -- I assume from your perspective, "in the name of God" -- you're going to have to be more specific about just what "political motive" and action your refer to.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   11:26:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Liberator, Vicomte13 (#130)

God's "anger" and "jealousy"-- again, in human relate-able terms. Maybe this analogy works for you; Say your child has joined an evil, kooky cult and appears to be embracing it. One emotion might be repulsiveness, others anger, disappointment, and..."jealously" in the sense that you can't believe he/she would choose cultist-enslavement over freedom.

But God is all knowing, so he would believe it, and even anticipate it. So why would it result in divine "anger".

Back to the language used in scripture -- Why wouldn't God explain language so we could understand it in "human" context? Somewhat analogous -- Germans and French both have words for things that don't exists for the English equivalent and vice versa.

Ah, but is not the Bible "truth"? Are you suggesting the Bible might convey an impression about God that is not, in fact, true, but somewhat short of that just so that we would "understand" something even though that which we then think we understand is, in fact, a misunderstanding?

If you take the position that the English language, due to it's limitations, cannot possibly capture the meaning of God's divine Word, then what you basically end up doing is aligning with Vicombe's position, probably, that the Bible is, to an extent, imperfect.

There IS such a thing as "righteous anger", no doubt. As far as any "bidding" that's done -- I assume from your perspective, "in the name of God" -- you're going to have to be more specific about just what "political motive" and action your refer to.

Political motives? That's easy. When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people. I understand it was Constantine that formally declared reincarnation a heresy. Certainly if people believe they only have one life to live, then they are much easier to control, as no one wants to go to hell for all eternity for disobeying the church, which became a partner to the state.

Well, you may find this notion of God capable of being angry (even "wrathful") and jealous reasonable in spite of His also having infinite wisdom, love & knowledge, but I do not, and it's one element that, for me, favors the Newton model of at least the Old Testament depiction of God, if not the contemporary Christian depiction.

Truly, under the Newton model, God has, in my opinion (if not outright objectively speaking) complete majesty. He has all of the wonders that Christianity claims he has, but without any of the shortcomings such as being capable of anger and jealousy. God is better complemented and revered as a higher standard than in the Judeo-Christian model.

It's my contention that the old testament is a collection of ancient writings that, rather than being divinely inspired, are instead a collection of highly refined writings that are ascribed divine origin status. That ascription has taken on a life of its own in the form of both the Jewish faith as well as, of course, the Christian faith which is an extension of it. Under the Newton model, everything works perfectly, frankly, in terms of divine love and patience, and our purpose. Christianity simply doesn't work perfectly, which which I'm sure you'll strongly disagree. But the bottom line is, under the Newton model, no one is left behind with the possible exception of those who choose to be left behind. And under Christianity, people can go to hell for all eternity because someone never shared the gospel with them when they had the chance to. On it's face.... that's a point scored for the Newton model.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   12:18:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Pinguinite (#133)

But God is all knowing, so he would believe it, and even anticipate it. So why would it result in divine "anger".

I'm obviously using *my* interpretation of language and sense of emotion as a descriptor. His "divine anger" -- the best I could describe it again is as a parent who sees a child willfully following a self-destructive course instead of a "sensible" course, despite *our* doing everything we could to make that course easy, safer, most rewarding, and the obvious best option.

Yes, even though God has divine knowledge of what *will* happen, He can, has, and will continue to be "angry" with mankind for the eventual willful self-destruction. *We should be reminded that *some* things shall remain "mysteries" according to Scripture, so mankind is NEVER going to receive nor find ALL the answers to this Universe OR of God's Purpose.

Ah, but is not the Bible "truth"? Are you suggesting the Bible might convey an impression about God that is not, in fact, true, but somewhat short of that just so that we would "understand" something even though that which we then think we understand is, in fact, a misunderstanding?

If you take the position that the English language, due to it's limitations, cannot possibly capture the meaning of God's divine Word, then what you basically end up doing is aligning with Vicombe's position, probably, that the Bible is, to an extent, imperfect.

I'd submit that many have and do indeed understand what God is saying. For them, The Word IS "perfect". It's a matter of tuning into the "right" frequency. This may explain why others "read the Bible cover-to-cover" yet still don't or can't understand it (or mis-understand) what God is saying. If one's heart and spirit isn't "open" to accepting the frequency at which God speaks/communicates, then no, one will not understand Him. (some DO so partially, then grow in understanding as the walls/blockage dissolve.)

Ping, I gave you *my* off the cuff interpretation/explanation for the limitations of some who have problems grasping The Almighty's meanings or conveyances.

Political motives? That's easy.

When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people. I understand it was Constantine that formally declared reincarnation a heresy. Certainly if people believe they only have one life to live, then they are much easier to control, as no one wants to go to hell for all eternity for disobeying the church, which became a partner to the state.

Is conveying the Word of God as a disciple/"spokesman" a matter of "leadership" OR coercion (as you infer)? Faith in God and heeding His Laws are all still a matter of Free Will, are they not? Jesus Christ and his disciples never coerced others into being Believers. And neither do legit "spokesmen" or Pastors who spread the Gospel and remind and lead the flock down the "narrow road".

With respect to "one life to live" (in this current physical shell anyway), is a notion and physical state is exactly what the entire Judeo-Christian faith is predicated upon, based on God's own Word. Whether you or anyone takes that word and authority to heart is a matter of Free Will -- yours, mine, everyone's.

With respect to Constantine...NOT who I'd consider a "Christian" leader.

"Fear of the Lord" is a GOOD thing. It is the start of all "wisdom".

Well, you may find this notion of God capable of being angry (even "wrathful") and jealous reasonable in spite of His also having infinite wisdom, love & knowledge, but I do not, and it's one element that, for me, favors the Newton model of at least the Old Testament depiction of God, if not the contemporary Christian depiction.

All a matter of personal opinion of course; yours and my Free Will to seek the truth then choose our respective path. I fully understand and accept the context of The Almighty's language and find no inconsistencies or weakness in his conveyance and intent.

Though the Newton model respects certain facets of OT text and law, it seems unable to grasp the subtleties of God's language, reason, purpose and law in OT text, bending misinterpretation and context as a result. (my impression of course.) Then again so does Roman Catholicism to a substantial degree.

Truly, under the Newton model, God has, in my opinion (if not outright objectively speaking) complete majesty. He has all of the wonders that Christianity claims he has, but without any of the shortcomings such as being capable of anger and jealousy. God is better complemented and revered as a higher standard than in the Judeo-Christian model.

Again, I don't see these traits of God as "shortcomings"; They are totally relate-able and understandable -- yes, even of The Almighty.

I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.

Q: Is it possible that the testimony of Newton's subjects (on which the entire Newton model is obviously based) *could* be contaminated by nefarious spiritual beings and methodical deception?

It's my contention that the old testament is a collection of ancient writings that, rather than being divinely inspired, are instead a collection of highly refined writings that are ascribed divine origin status. That ascription has taken on a life of its own in the form of both the Jewish faith as well as, of course, the Christian faith which is an extension of it. Under the Newton model, everything works perfectly, frankly, in terms of divine love and patience, and our purpose. Christianity simply doesn't work perfectly, which which I'm sure you'll strongly disagree. But the bottom line is, under the Newton model, no one is left behind with the possible exception of those who choose to be left behind. And under Christianity, people can go to hell for all eternity because someone never shared the gospel with them when they had the chance to. On it's face.... that's a point scored for the Newton model.

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

The Newton model may be akin to the parent who won't ever tell Johnny that driving close to the cliff might result in his car going over the cliff and sure death. The main problem with the Newton model is...Consequences -- are are none. There is no personal responsibility, no justice, no real resolution or Finish Line. No Heaven and no Hell. No such thing as "sin"; No real such thing as "Forever". And ALWAYS a second, third fourth, infinity of "chances" to "get it right". I don't know how that makes any sense and by what universal "justice" that works (and of course, by whose "Authority")

Justice necessitates that some are NOT rewarded for their willful (keyword here) disobedience, blindness, arrogance, sin, AND contempt of The Father. Reward are merit-based; Obedience is rewarded. The Reward for Eternal Life is but from Grace.

The Afterlife is Forever. Better be sure because there is no second chance.

(I'm sorry I must cut this short...)

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-13   13:39:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Liberator (#136)

When you put the literal fear of God into a population, and are able to cast yourself as a spokesman for God, then you have strong control over those people.

Is conveying the Word of God as a disciple/"spokesman" a matter of "leadership" OR coercion (as you infer)? Faith in God and heeding His Laws are all still a matter of Free Will, are they not? Jesus Christ and his disciples never coerced others into being Believers. And neither do legit "spokesmen" or Pastors who spread the Gospel and remind and lead the flock down the "narrow road".

I'm not speaking of properly appointed leaders. Rather, those who find themselves in positions of power and use it to further their own interests. Since you view Constantine as having been a non-Christian, he would be an excellent example.

Doesn't any parent run that same gamut of emotion as they watch their child grow up? After all, we are just extensions of God the Father. We may even know beforehand that our child WILL fall, but the child must learn. Then we pick him up.

All a matter of personal opinion of course; yours and my Free Will to seek the truth then choose our respective path. I fully understand and accept the context of The Almighty's language and find no inconsistencies or weakness in his conveyance and intent.

It seems clear you first accept the Bible as God's Word, and because of that, find no inconsistencies. But certainly, once you do accept that premise, you are **not allowed** to find any inconsistencies. Any perceptions of such will be automatically be categorized as something you are not wise enough to understand, in which case there is nothing anyone could point out about the Bible that would make you question it's divine origin.

To be clear, my position is not that God should not be believed. My position instead is that the Bible is not his divinely inspired word.

I've explained the context of God's "jealousy"; His anger is a *righteous* anger akin to watching your children become willfully disobedient simply out of spite or because of selfishness. And most of all, His Anger (as in the case of ANY loving parent) is a response to knowing some of His children will die as a result of their willful ignorance, selfishness, and...yes, even contempt of a Father who does his best to guide and discipline them.

This compels me to ask a more fundamental question: Did God have any choice in the matter of spiritual law related to sin and redemption? In the "time before time" as it were, did God, knowing that the Christian model would see a majority of his children perish in eternal flame "sign off" on this model, or is it possible that He could have said, "no, I don't like this model. I prefer a model of reincarnation where I never have to send anyone into a lake of eternally fire".

Would you say that A) God had no such choice as he is/was restricted by his very nature, or B) He had a choice, and chose the one now known as Christianity where most of his children end up dying?

Personally, I think He had a choice, and I don't see why he would have chosen a system that works less well than one that works more well.

Q: Is it possible that the testimony of Newton's subjects (on which the entire Newton model is obviously based) *could* be contaminated by nefarious spiritual beings and methodical deception?

You've speculated on that before. Ultimately I can't prove the negative of saying this didn't happen. But if it did, would it be my fault for being suckered? What it comes down to is explaining each belief system in terms of the other's model. Under Christianity, "nefarious spiritual beings" would explain Newton's findings. And under Newton's model, Christianity has a largely human explanation for it's existence.

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

The Newton model may be akin to the parent who won't ever tell Johnny that driving close to the cliff might result in his car going over the cliff and sure death. The main problem with the Newton model is...Consequences -- are are none. There is no personal responsibility, no justice,

I take issue here. There certainly are consequences, which is part of the beauty of it. There absolutely is accountability.

no real resolution or Finish Line.

It's harder to see everything when us earthlings are so far down the totem pole of progression, but it seems there is a finish.

No Heaven and no Hell. No such thing as "sin"; No real such thing as "Forever". And ALWAYS a second, third fourth, infinity of "chances" to "get it right". I don't know how that makes any sense and by what universal "justice" that works (and of course, by whose "Authority")

"Get it right" is a mischaracterization, as it conotates more of a chance thing like you're doing some carnival contest of throwing rings to win a stuffed bear than an actual step in growth. Even when we fail, we learn.

Justice necessitates that some are NOT rewarded for their willful (keyword here) disobedience, blindness, arrogance, sin, AND contempt of The Father. Reward are merit-based; Obedience is rewarded. The Reward for Eternal Life is but from Grace.

In the Newton model, everything is 100% positive reinforcement, 0% negative reinforcement. Failing to grow is the punishment.

The Afterlife is Forever. Better be sure because there is no second chance.

Believing something out of fear is not something I see as a virtue God would respect or admire. I think He would better respect an honest disbeliever than a fake believer.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-13   15:49:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: All (#138)

The Newton model works on some respects...As a loving forgiving parent. But maybe the "patience" is too much of a good thing. After all, how many time can a parent be expected to see Johnny harm and almost kill himself before being disciplined? Before learning his lesson?

Seven times seventy-seven? :^)

Liberator, I see your subsequent responses, but want to expand a bit on this particular exchange. Firstly, it wasn't my intent to mock you or the Bible by employing this biblical numeric reference in my response, though it was certainly intended to be a funny retort as it was exactly that, turning the tables on you. Knowing you, however, I'm confident it wasn't taken as mocking.

But it actually goes further than that, because it's a great message on forgiveness and the Bible is completely on point with this quote that is reputed to be the response of Jesus, and I would interpret that number to mean "without count". Would you not agree?

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Well, under the Newton model, there are no such limits for God, but under the Christian model, there is. There is the limit of a single life, which may not even last more than a few years.

This is what I mean when I say that under the Michael Newton model, God is MORE forgiving and MORE loving and MORE patient than under the Christian model. Everything works **better**, and I would go so far as to say that under the Newton model, God has all the majesty that Christianity talks about Him having, but nonetheless fails to ascribe to Him when it comes to the matter of eternal damnation.

I know you can tell me and others the reasons God supposedly does this condemnation, and you may even argue that it isn't Him who actually does it. But it doesn't change the fact that under the Christian model (your version, at least) eternal condemnation occurs, and that under the Newton model, it does not (while still preserving accountability and free will). And I for one simply can't, with an honest mind, hold on to a theology that portrays God as having inferior qualities which is what I frankly see in the Christian model. When you argue about Christianity being the Truth, to me it's much like a car salesman trying to convince me that a Chevy Sail is superior in performance to a Camaro. It's not the individual theological elements that I pay attention to so much. It's the end result. And the end result of the Newton model is, frankly, is superior in having patience that spans eternal (i.e. "Seventy times seven" times) and on several other points as well.

(PS: looking it up, I see it's "seventy times seven" not "seven times seventy-seven").

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-18   20:13:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: Pinguinite (#149)

And if we are called to forgive without count, is it reasonable to suggest that God has a more restrictive limit on forgiveness?

Yes.

We are required to forgive always and endlessly but God is not.

When an offense happens, we get hit or cheated etc, the offense is against God not us.

So we forgive, and God deals with it as he sees fit.

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-20   22:06:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: Biff Tannen (#164)

We are to hold others in a constant state of forgiveness without keeping score, not summing up the amount of debt each time and forgiving repeatedly.

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   7:37:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Stone, it is better **for you** if you can forgive even absent any apology. That doesn't mean you leave yourself open to harm again from such a person, but it does mean you don't harbor any ill-will.

If not forgiving someone means you constantly harbor anger then that simply hurts you. Especially if you maintain a formal database that gives you reason to be angry at 3/4's of the people you deal with on a daily basis. It's not the way to live.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:52:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Pinguinite (#181)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:24:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: A K A Stone (#184)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   17:07:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: Pinguinite (#187)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   17:41:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: Vicomte13 (#188)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:12:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: Pinguinite (#194)

So, given that "eternity" in Scripture means "to the indistinct" or "to a distant unknown time" as opposed to "forever and ever", we realize that there is "forever and ever" Hell in the Scriptures. That's the first thing.

The second is that there is no Hell at all in the Scriptures.

Oh yes, sure, the word appears in the English translations, where it is used to translate various different concepts and words. That smearing together of words and concepts is a Christian tradition. It is not what the text actually says.

What the text actually says, Old Testament first, is that the spirits of the dead go into Sheol, the underworld of the dead. In the Greek translation of the Hebrew, Sheol is rendered as Hades, and Hades is also the generic word used in the New Testament Greek.

This was translated, in English, with the Scandinavian word "Hell", but Hell has a context of disgrace and punishment in its original Scandinavian form. Hades/Sheol do not.

Jesus then tells us the rest. In his parable of the rich man and Lazarus, he describes the underworld as divided into two parts: a hot, parched place where the rich man suffers, and a nice place where Abraham dwells (in the parable) with his offspring. A black chasm separates the two.

Elsewhere, in several places, Jesus speaks of "fiery Gehenna", of worms and fire. The fires of Gehenna are said to burn on and on, but that does not mean that the person who goes into Gehenna burns there "forever". Remember, there is no "forever".

What Jesus actually says, in the parable of the unforgiving servant, is that those who forgive are forgiven by God, but those who don't are imprisoned by God in torment "until the last denarius is paid".

Some say that the debt can never be repaid, but those who say that are ignoring what God says elsewhere about debt. Recall that in his Israel, debt was relaxed after six years, and even slavery was released after 49 years. God's model for the remission of debt of sin, then, is forgiven and be forgiven, but if not perfectly forgiven, pay the debt of sin in the prison of Gehenna. God forgives sin, but he does so proportionally to the forgiveness of other men by the sinning man.

This is very much not the traditional Christian doctrine, but it is what Jesus actually SAYS in the text.

So, we know what Gehenna is, and we know that the rich man was there, and we know that Jesus spoke of the prison of torment as payment for the unforgiven sins. We also know that God set a limit on debt, and that God's laws for Israel were representative of God himself.

When Jesus died, he promised the supportive criminal dying alongside him that today he would be with him in Paradise. This is the Greek rendering of Gan Eden.

So, the dead do not go the Heaven at all, and there is no Hell either. The dead descend into Sheol, which is Hades, the underworld, and those whose sins are forgiven proceed into Gan Eden/Paradise. Abraham is there. Those with unforgiven sins, a debt to pay, proceed to Gehenna, a fiery parched place, where they remain "until the last penny is paid" - and perhaps there is a remission after a certain period at which point God considers the debt paid - this is modeled by his law of Jubilee.

Jewish tradition is that Gehenna is a maximum of one year. The Scripture doesn't say that, but at least the Jewish tradition recognizes that one is in Gehenna and then Gan Eden/Paradise, as Jesus said, as opposed to in Heaven (which is the sky) or in Hell - which is not in the Bible at all.

There is nothing eternal - meaning "forever" - about either Paradise or Gehenna. Rather, at the end of the world, they are emptied as the dead are resurrected and face final judgment.

The City of God comes down OUT of the Sky, and those who pass final judgment walk through the gates into the City of God to live with God "for the eon" or "for eons of eons" - again, an open-ended term that means "for the age" or "for ages of ages" - a long time - but not unbounded "forever". There is no "forever" in the Bible - only long periods of unknown length, which is DIFFERENT.

Those who FAIL judgment are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the "Second Death". The Scripture does not say that they burn there alive forever. Jesus said that the "dead" whose spirits have gone into Sheol are actually alive, but here, he speaks of death with finality.

It is clear that there is no coming back out of the Lake of Fire. It is not at all revealed that the "dead" there are "alive" somehow and burning. There is no Gehenna to go back to. The text does not definitively say those spirits are utterly destroyed and permanently cease to exist, but the inference for that is strong given Jesus' use of the word "death", and he rejection of the use of "death" to mean mere physical death - the merely physically dead are alive - their spirits are alive - they are "sleeping", not dead. But the word "dead" is final with the lake of Fire.

It is Christian tradition that imagines that those thrown into the lake of fire are not really dead either, but alive as bodies and spirits screaming in the fire for all eternity. That is nowhere in the text. It is made up. Utter destruction can be inferred by the word "death" - perpetual torture in fire cannot be inferred at all. It is imported with the Scandinavian word "Hell", which never appears in the Scripture either.

Finally, the text does not say that all sinners with any sin are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Actually, what Jesus says is that at final judgment, those with certain sins only (and presumably those who have not paid the debt in Gehenna), are thrown into the Lake of Fire or left in outer darkness. The list is repeated twice, with some variation, on the last two pages of Scripture. Killers, liars and the sexually immoral are on both lists. Cowards are on one list. "Dogs" are on another. Thieves are on neither list.

That is what is actually IN the Bible. No Hell at all, nobody going TO Heaven - for now, down into Hades, then afterwards, back up, and into the City of God, which comes down to earth. Nobody goes to Heaven. Heaven comes down at the end.

Forgiveness of sin by God is obtained by men forgiving other men their sins. Imperfect forgiveness leaves a debt which is paid in Gehenna, where one remains UNTIL the sin is paid. It can be inferred that God has a limit on endurance of debt, because he heavily imposes such limits in his Law for the Hebrews, but if not there is still the resurrection at the end of the world, and final judgment.

After final judgment, those who pass are alive "for eons" (not forever and ever - nothing in the Bible is forever and ever), while those who fail are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the Second Death, which can be inferred to be total destruction, but cannot be inferred to be a perpetual screaming living torment, for there is no "perpetual" anything in the Bible.

Obviously the Bible is in rather violent contradiction with Christian tradition pretty much across the board. The parts of the Bible that reveal these things are said by Jesus himself, so are the most authoritative words of all, and are the correct understanding.

No Heaven for men. No Hell at all. No perpetual or eternal anything. Temporary Gehenna for the payment of unforgiven sins, and temporary Paradise for those forgiven or without sin. Then final judgment and living for eons with God in his City, if passed, or thrown body and spirit into the Lake of Fire for the second death, which can be inferred is utter annihilation. Without the inference, we can say "We don't know", but eternal agony cannot be inferred from the text. There is SOME oblique evidence for utter destruction, but no evidence at all for agony forever, because death is not agony, and because there is no "forever" in the Bible.

Yes, this is what the Bible has always said. Yes, it is clear, if one reads the words of the Hebrew and Greek carefully. Yes, this means that billions of Christians are wrong about this, and their traditions are in error.

No, nobody is going to accept that. They will, instead, state that Hell is there, and that "to the indistinct" means "forever and ever". They will be wrong, but they will rely on consensus gentium and the weight of historical tradition to remain sure in their wrongness.

That's what the Greek says.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   18:46:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Thank you very much, Vic, for expounding.

I think I generally get the picture. Souls are not necessarily immortal, and in the end, souls that are condemned are permanently destroyed. It seems the rather antiquated Catholic concept of purgatory is allowed for here, and all who are saved enter God's kingdom at the same time.

I am aware that Greek mythology predated Christianity, of course, and the Greeks did conquer the present middle east, even to present day India, hundreds of years before the time of Jesus, and I also know that cultures and beliefs both mix as peoples interact and mingle over the long term. So I wonder how much of what you stated might have origins in Greek mythology? I ask that both because some of your information is sourced in Greek writings, and it also somehow seems reminiscent of Greek mythology. I hope that suggestion isn't offensive.

I guess I could go more to the point by simply asking you why it is that this ancient writing should be considered accurate theology, and not other ancient writings such as Egyption mythology, Hinduism, Buddism and even other Greek mythological writings that depict a polytheistic universe? All of which predate Christianity. If the age of a writing is a deciding factor in it's authority, why not go back to even more ancient writings?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   11:06:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: Pinguinite (#206)

Souls are not necessarily immortal,

f the age of a writing is a deciding factor in it's authority, why not go back to even more ancient writings?

Because the only physical miracles that exist that are actually examinable in a forensic laboratory, and that have been examined and found to be scientifically inexplicable, are all Christian (except for three or four incorrupt Bhuddist monks, who seem to exhibit incorruption, but who have not been forensically examined).

So, the only proven miracles are all Christian. Two of them pertain directly to the body of Jesus: the image on his burial shroud, and his heart tissue, containing the same blood as on the shroud, from 600 years later.

None of the other gods, texts, mythologies have any scientific proof, and so can be dismissed as stories. The story of Jesus has to be taken more seriously because something broke the laws of physics to assert, through laboratory-examinable miracle, the physics breaking quality of Jesus.

That's why we focus on Jesus and disregard the rest: God proves HIS divinity through evidence. God leaves NO evidence at all for any of the other legends, stories, myths and writings - other than perhaps a head not to the individual holiness of a handful of Bhuddist monks.

Jesus was important enough for God to override the laws of nature to leave provable evidence - evidence that can survive modern computation, electron microscopy and forensic science. Without that, ALL of the religious texts could be - and probably should be - dismissed as myths. Their science is all cockamamie. We know better.

With Jesus, though, we have miracles. So we have to treat this one differently.

All that we know about him is written in five ancient scrolls. Incidentally, we have no more words and teaching and documentary evidence of any other person from the First Century than him. The direct quotation of Jesus exceeds the direct quotation of any other person in the Roman Empire from the First Century. God thought Jesus was important enough to waive the laws of physics and insert miracles into the world so that 21st Century scientists would have to look at him - and ONLY him - based on the evidence. There are no other forensically examinable miracles - None. But there ARE Christian miracles, and on examination, they are not scientifically explicable.

So, from the aspects of the religions and ancient texts that contradict what we know scientifically about the universe, we know that they are all poppycock. But Jesus himself gets a saving throw, because the same nature we study to know that the creation myths are all legends and not true is the nature that gave us the Shroud and the Lanciano heart tissue and blood, and they ARE miraculous, nature-defying.

So we've got science itself pointing at Jesus, while simultaneously debunking all of the other religious stories, because they tell us an origin of the world that is false.

Jesus doesn't tell us the origin of the world. The Jews do, but Jesus didn't teach about that. Rather, Jesus taught a specific set of moral rules, and made those moral rules the criteria to be accepted by the Father and allowed to live on after death in a good way, as a spirit, and then to be reunited with a body at the resurrection, and to live on after that with God.

What Jesus said is what is important, and he is confined to four overlapping texts from four pens, that provide four witness viewpoints - better testimony than for any OTHER ancient figure, and a fifth text (Revelation) in which he tells the hearer to take dictation.

THAT is why THOSE texts, and not any of the other ones.

Now, Jesus came out of a culture, Hellenic Judaism, and he used the reference points and texts of his culture to teach his hearers, which sort of bootstraps in the Hebrew old testament texts as a source of learning and example, but NOT of the same weight or authority as the only guy for whom God actually overrode the physics and left us miracles we can all examine in the lab.

That's why it's JUST Jesus, and that's why the other texts have SOME importance, but not the SAME importance as what he says.

With "soul", again the English fouls us up. What the Hebrew says is that we are a breath (the word "spirit" means "breath" or "wind") from God that animates a body made of dirt. When the breath and the body are bound together, that unit is called a "nephesh", which we have translated into English as a "soul". At physical death, the SPIRIT departs into Sheol - which is either Gan Eden or Gehenna - while the BODY falls back to dust. "Man, thou art dust, and to dust thou shall return". Since the "SOUL" is the UNION of BODY and BREATH/SPIRIT - a "breather" in the original language - the SOUL ceases to exist at physical death. Only the SPIRIT goes on, into the afterlife of Sheol. Spirits without a debt of sin go straight to Gan Eden, which is the Paradise Garden of God: back to Eden. Everybody else pays for sin in Gehenna "until the last penny is paid", to quote Jesus.

Now, God's law given to the Hebrews gives us some inkling that God does not permit debts to be held forever - after 6, or 49 - years God compelled the forgiveness of all debt under his law, so PERHAPS the payment in the hot prison of Gehenna

[LONG PARENTHETICAL] (which is described by Jesus as hell-ISH, but should not be called "Hell", because that is a Scandinavian pagan and Christian term that imply things that Jesus did NOT say - we should be precise about language so as to not drag in all of the errors of the ages, and just use the direct terms that Jesus used),

[RESUME SENTENCE] is time limited. Jesus said "until", not "forever". In any event, Jesus said that the dead are not dead - they are asleep.

At the end of the world, Jesus said that all SPIRITS will be called and put back into bodies - SOULS again - living people - and the person will be judged. Those who pass judgment will enter as SOULS - spirit + body: living people, through the gates of pearl into the City of God, which will come down from the sky (nobody "goes TO heaven" - Heaven is just the sky in the Scripture). Those who fail may wail outside in darkness, as souls. Or they may be thrown as souls - bodies bound with spirits - into the lake of fire for the second death. This, Jesus indicates, really IS death, which strongly implies that not only is the body burnt up - thereby destroying the SOUL, because the SPIRIT is stripped from the body, and a SOUL is a bound spirit and body - but also perhaps the spirit itself, which is a breath of God in its origin, is burnt up and gone, destroyed.

That is the best read, though one can fuss at some of the margins. It does not fit Christian theology very well, because Christian theology has confused spirit and soul, making them synonyms, has confused Gehenna and the Lake of Fire with each other, and labelled both as "Hell", which never appears, has confused the Garden of Eden - Paradise, and also the City of God, with the sky (Heaven), and confuses "to a distant time" with "forever". The Christian tradition has changed all of the goalposts of what Jesus said. What JESUS said is actually internally consistent, and gives a clear and non-contradictory structure that fits seamlessly with everything that GOD HIMSELF said directly in the entire Bible. It conflicts somewhat with things that OTHER speakers in the Bible said, including Apostles and other writers, and it certainly conflicts quite sharply with what Christians believe about Heaven, Hell and the Afterlife.

So, the Christians are wrong and Jesus is right, and we should listen to him - Just him - not "Him PLUS", because the plus conflicts, and none of the plus has any ancient physical miracles we can look at in the lab, but HE does.

Since ALL of the miracles that we can examine are of Jesus, therefore laboratory science proves that Jesus is divine more probably than not, and we should listen to him. Since all other religious texts and sources, including other parts of the Bible, and other religions, and the beliefs OF the Christian religion, conflict with Jesus, we should ignore and discard all of the rest of it and listen to Jesus, JUST Jesus, JESUS ALONE, because HE is the only God who has actually PROVEN himself with physical miracles that even MIT can acknowledge, while all of the rest is piffle, jibber jabber and mere words - and words are wind.

Physical miracles are real proof. I will only believe that which proves itself by miracle. So I will listen to Jesus, because he has done so.

Now, I have had my own miracles from God, which is why I was so dogged about pursuing the actual miracles myself. That is the source of my focus on miracle. I KNOW, but nobody else can, or should, believe in God because I say I have miracles - I could be a liar or a lunatic or a storyteller just like all of the writers of all of those ancient texts.

When the laws of physics put a three-D photographic negative of a man on a piece of LINEN, and somehow that cloth makes it through 2000 years to the forensic lab, along with its linen facecloth companion, while every OTHER piece of cloth from the First Century has crumbled to dust - and the blood on the cloth turns out to be the same very rare blood as from another miracle, of heart tissue, from 600 years and 1500 miles later - and modern American and Western European scientists (i.e.: not superstitious yokels from the undeveloped world) look at these things and say "Yep, they really ARE images and blood, and thus and so - and they really are inexplicable, as no known or postulated process could do that" - THEN I can apply the same inductive reasoning as is used in the rest of science to say -OK, God did this.

And since God ONLY did it for things pertaining to Christ, that means that I suspend disbelief - which is universal for ALL religious and superstitious nonsense and mythology and old fables and fictions of the ancients, and say "I guess I have to take THIS one more seriously, out of all of the crap". Then I read Jesus, and I see a clear moral code that really makes sense, though its hard, I see a promise that fits my OWN miracles, and I realize: That's the voice of God. I know that voice.

So, that's how I know. And that's why none of the rest cut it at all. The world is on the back of a turtle? Please. That's ridiculous.

Mohammed? Well, maybe, except he directly opposed the divine nature of Jesus, but the miracles prove otherwise, so nope. The Greeks and their gods? Nice symbols of nature, but real? We can climb and fly drones up Mount Olympus. There's nothing there but snow.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   14:06:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: Vicomte13 (#209)

Interesting, and it seems you've answered my challenge well. Thank you.

I would also be interested in the scientific-based, pro-divine arguments in favor of the Shroud. Last time I considered it some 20 years ago, it seems the science was saying the shroud was likely a middle-age forgery.

On the Newton side, we have contemporary claims of accounts of reincarnation, at least one of which is, in my view, beyond any reasonable accusation of fakery and is certainly well beyond coincidence. At the same time, reincarnation is not a new concept in the least, as it's been believed in some cultures, mainly eastern, for thousands of years. And if I'm not mistake, was also considered in early Christianity, since then labeled heresy.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   17:02:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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