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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 36030
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#182. To: Vicomte13 (#180)

Obviously, we see these things a bit differently. Thanks for the conversation. Take care.

We all see things differently, of course. Best to you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   10:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Pinguinite (#181)
(Edited)

Some things you can and should let go. I will use an extreme example, what if someone will less your child should you forgive them if they're not sorry about it or even if they are?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Pinguinite (#181)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-21   12:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: A K A Stone (#173)

Even if they do not repend or ask for forgive.

Yes. When Jesus said forgive 70x7 I don't think the offenders repentance was part of it.

And how is Jesus towards you? He holds you in a state of forgiveness without a constant cycle of accounting and forgiving. It's the New Testament way, a state of grace - unmerited favor.

Go thou and do likewise.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:42:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: Pinguinite (#179)

My point there about the courts is that they are the offended party when a crime is committed, you aren't involved in the prosecution, judging and execution. I suspect, but don't know, that this is modelled on Judeo-Christian ways.

I don't know if I'd sue. There is something in the New Testament about this.

BTW, I'm not claiming great virtue here, just saying how I think it is.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-21   15:47:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: A K A Stone (#184)

Some realtor lady ripped me off in the nineties. I'm still mad about it. I see her signs occasionally. I wonder if she ever wonders what happened to some of those signs.

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-21   17:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: Pinguinite (#187)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-21   17:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: Vicomte13 (#176) (Edited)

The Catholic Church practices idoltry. You know it is true.

Saying gods word is a idol is a lie from hell. Your future home if you don't repent.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   8:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: Pinguinite (#187)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful

Just like oj and Obama right. Hillary too huh.

That disproved your Newton's law.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:01:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: Pinguinite (#187)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful. Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered. And as souls, they will voluntarily do so. And while in human form they would have no conscious memory of that choice or destiny, it is nonetheless something the soul is aware of. And again, it is something souls will freely choose to do, because it is the way to become more enlightened and to grow. It is NOT for the purposes of justice or punishment, but for understanding and growth. Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

That whole paragraph is silli and untrue. Every day reality should show you that what you wrote is so far from what we all witness every single day here on Earth.

There are evil people and they don't give a shit about right or wrong and never will. You're a bit gullible if you actually believe what you wrote.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: Pinguinite (#187) (Edited)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

Your comment is in error.

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Newton's is a silly model that doesn't work. Christ told the truth as recorded in the Bible.

You also left out the fact that anyone can choose to be saved. Or they can choose hell by rejecting Christ.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-22   9:12:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: A K A Stone (#192)

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful

Just like oj and Obama right. Hillary too huh.

Perhaps under Christian model, (your version, at least) there is no hope for them, but under the Newton model, yes. That is correct.

You also left out the fact that anyone can choose to be saved. Or they can choose hell by rejecting Christ.

Except for those who went through their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel. Correct or no?

I can understand your own lack of patience with people. But when you say those people are already lost causes destined for hell, what you are doing is ascribing your own level of intolerance to God. But God is better than you. Better than me too.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: Vicomte13 (#188)

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity,

Under one Christian model, a traditional one, yes.

But that is not what the Scriptural texts actually SAY, in koine Greek. They say something quite different.

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-22   10:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: A K A Stone (#189)

The Catholic Church practices idoltry. You know it is true.

Saying gods word is a idol is a lie from hell. Your future home if you don't repent.

Hell does not exist. There is Paradise/Gan Eden and Gehenna, and then there will be the City of God and the Lake of Fire and the Outer Darkness. That is what is actually IN the Scriptures. Hell does not exist outside of Christian imaginations.

The Catholic Church does not practice idolatry. You believe it does because the poorly educated leaders of your religion have taught you that it does. They have also taught you that the Bible speaks of Hell. Neither of those things are true.

Jesus is God's Word made flesh. Your religion says that the book is God's word. Your religion has elevated a book to the level of Jesus. That is idolatry. It's a book. Some of God's words are in the book, but the book is not The Word of God. To say that it is, which is what you have been taught by your ignorant preachers, is idolatry.

God will forgive your idolatry because you don't know any better and don't mean harm by it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: Pinguinite (#194)

Okay, I'll bite. What does the original Greek actually say on the matter?

Necessarily long-winded response will be forthcoming to you tonight.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:33:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Pinguinite (#194) (Edited)

Actually, no. I'll start now.

I'll start here, with these expressions:

"To the horizon"; "to the indistinct"; "to the horizon past the horizon", "to a distant time", "to the unknown", "until we don't know", "to the haze where the sky meets the sea", "beyond the horizon".

Do you agree that all of those things say approximately the same thing?

Can you put in your own words what they say, what that concept is? Please take a moment and do so.

Now let me ask you: do any of those things mean "forever"?

No, they don't. "Until we don't know" is not the same thing as "forever", is it?

Those expressions are all accurate, even directly literal, translations of the words, in Greek and Hebrew that are used to express an idea.

If you translate that concept into English using the word "forever" for "to the horizon", and "forever and ever" for "to the horizon past the horizon", you have done irreparable damage to what the text actually says. You are taking a thing that is an unknown "until-we-don't-know-when" and turned it into an absolute "we know for certain that there is no end".

That second concept does not appear even one time anywhere in the Greek or Hebrew scriptures. Only the first concept does.

That is the first and most important point.

It is also the place where the Christian traditionalists will pull out their Strongs and their Concordances and start pounding the table and screaming that words that do not mean "forever and ever" actually DO mean that, because "it is written" in study aids, written by people who believe that "ha olam" must MEAN forever, as opposed to what it actually means "to the indistinct"/"to the horizon".

Granted, that's Hebrew, not Greek. The Greek word used to translate the Hebrew is different, but it must carry the Hebrew meaning if it is used to translate Hebrew.

We have translated "to the indistinct" as "forever", which means that "forever", in the Bible in English, never means literally "without end", it means "until we don't know when" - which, I think you will agree, is a TOTALLY different idea.

And THAT is the first, and worst problem with the Christian theology of Heaven and Hell forever and ever. Forever and ever never appears in the actual Scripture, not even one time. If you erase the English and read the literal, exact word in Hebrew (later translated into Greek) "To the indistinct" is all that is ever there.

And THAT changes everything, doesn't it?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   10:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Pinguinite (#138) (Edited)

Believing something out of fear is not something I see as a virtue God would respect or admire.

If you're like me, you probably have to allow certain thoughts to ruminate and marinate for a while...

I can't speak for anyone else on this matter...

Perspective:

As children, did we behave out of "fear"? Perhaps partially.
OR...Did we behave out of wanting to please our parents out of love and respect? Grandparents? Teachers? Coaches? Etal? AND eventually out of knowledge and wisdom?

Do we behave and follow civil law out of "fear"?
Again, partially. But do we do so out of love of peace, respect for the law and others, and out of love and respect even for ourselves?

You have eliminated "Love" and "Respect" out of this equation. The Creator of all things, our God, is a personal God. You've also removed this facet out of the equation as well.

"Fear". DO I fear Hell? Yes. Do I want to live in Heaven forever? Yes. Do I want to see God face-to-face and have Him tell me, "Well done my son."? ABSOLUTELY. That my friend IS the "Final Resolution" AND validation from our Ultimate Parent.

God did not create our universe, our earth, our lives with malice, hate, and evil; Look at the best of it. He gave us sustenance, companionship, a wondrous world and mind with which to marvel at it. (AND also the Free Will to figure out the Truth.)

Yes, what He did do is create a challenge for us, lives in which we would necessarily be "tested" for degree of obedience in accordance to our own Free Will. It may or may not seem "fair", but God's Purpose can't be questioned. This theme is repeated often in Scripture. Job didn't think it was very fair at its extreme in a cautionary tale. Until he did.

The Newton Model lacks any personal love, respect, and pleasing of our Father. In its post-mortal "purgatory" lies a sterile, impersonal vacuum of inconsequence for either Obedience OR Disobedience; Of neither Accountability; Reward nor Justice nor Judgement NOR "Resolution" or Validation upon "life-after-life".

Instead, the "graduate" of his mortal coil is greeted by non-judgmental Counselors or "coaches" who review the recently depart's life and more or less reassure him/her that "everybody makes mistakes"; That in the next life those mistakes *can* be amended now that he/she has learned exactly what they did wrong. (Yet unanswered: By what or whose standard is "wrong" or "right" amended and validated?)

I ask -- at its zenith, on the "Last Play of the Game" -- IS there a "perfect, sinless life"?? And in that case of achieving "perfection", what does the Newton Model say about crossing that "Finish Line"? (IS there one?)

All things must have a "Beginning" and End", an Alpha and Omega. The Newton Model also conspicuously lacks any, "In The Beginning" and thus far, there is no "End" (unless I've overlooked something).

I think He would better respect an honest disbeliever than a fake believer.

You've read Scripture. I think not. You are probably perceiving God's reaction as a friendly mortal foe. The truth is that neither have the respect of The Almighty; He may still love them, but He does not "respect" nor encourage the disobedient or the rebellious. The stakes are high.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." ~ Proverbs

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   12:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone (#187) (Edited)

When it comes to dealing with those who have harmed you, the Newton model offers a perspective that makes it easier to do so.

When people intentionally harm others, they will eventually understand that harm they've done and be truly regretful.

Don't many already eventually understand the guilt of harming of others and repentance in this life?

But can the Newton Model explain whose law was broken to begin with, and understanding *why* such guilt or remorse would be "pre-loaded" into our conscience to begin with?

Newton has found it to be common that when one person harms another in one life, that person who committed the harm will eventually choose a life in which they suffer the same harm they inflicted. For example, one who murders will eventually choose, on the soul level, a life in which they are destined to be murdered.

I'm sorry -- this makes no sense a any level.

It is akin to believing that one MUST commit suicide in the *next life* as a virtual "Penance". I reckon this is "Justice" in the Newton Model. Do you realize what a horror that *should* be?

IF this atonement/penance goes on indefinitely, there no *last* innocent man if a past-life murderer require a next-life murderer.

And as souls, they will voluntarily do so [if a Murderer BE Murdered]....And again, it is something souls will freely choose ...Souls can refuse to do so, but the consequence is no growth.

EDIT: With respect to "Growth", we are to grow is spirit and in Godly wisdom and understanding IN THIS ONE LIFE. This is it. One shot deal.

You keep on referring to "Growth". INTO WHAT? TO WHOM DOES THIS PROCESS PLEASE? TO WHAT END?

In the Christian Model, Jesus Christ has already paid the price for "Atonement" or "Penance". Of ALL sins. Moreover, WE may well be repentant in *this* life, but cannot make any atonement or "pay" for the log-jam of sins committed in life ourselves (I will address those who have not known Christ as well as children subsequently).

The Newton Model conspicuously eliminates the need for any God or Savior. If Man is his own Savior, Redeemer...no god is needed. Heaven and Hell are also eliminated. IS this resolution reasonable of an Almighty Creator? Why would God create man, his spirit, his soul -- only to abandon man when it came to resolution, to reason, to...keeping open the lines of personal communication to the Wisdom and Knowledge of Purpose IF we listen to Him?

Under the Christian model, an evildoer goes to hell to burn for all eternity, and it doesn't matter if they sinned only a little bit or committed terrible atrocities their whole life. Their punishment is the same. So the temptation to want to exact justice by harming someone who harmed you is arguably much greater.

Yes, that's right; one sin or ten-thousand sins STILL taints the Pure White of Heaven. There is no shade of gray area that is acceptable to God. ONLY through Christ are we pure.

One who sins big, aka "atrocities" -- IF truly repentant in his heart in the name of Christ -- IS forgiven (The thief on the cross for example). Jesus has picked up that tab. I ask -- what greater offer of love is there than that?

Those who "exact justice" instead of repenting or feeling remorse lack the spirit of the Lord and love in their heart. Something else has filled the void (evil, man's nature.)

As to "Punishment" -- God has said in Revelation:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

"JUDGED ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE." This could be construed to confer level or degree of Condemnation/Damnation. Nonetheless, God's Life, God's Rules.

It is our Free Will whether we are obedient or rebel; whether we embrace His wisdom and knowledge or create our own. It is by our own Free Will and sin that we are condemned as well. *We can NOT save ourselves.*

So all considered, under the Newton model, it's easier to deal with people who harm you.

Maybe psychologically, temporarily. Short term.

The Newton Model provides assurance that everything will turn out ok. But does it? And for the Big Picture, will it?

How sure, how convinced will you be in your deathbed of the Newton Model? Will you have *any* doubt that the very next face you see the second after you pass will be unnamed, unknown entities, Newtonian "Counselors"? OR, before the Throne of God? (just asking)

Can you be sure that those "Counselors" are merely cackling demons who've mislead you?

May you keep on searching for the truth, brutha.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   13:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Biff Tannen, A K A Stone (#185)

And how is Jesus towards you? He holds you in a state of forgiveness without a constant cycle of accounting and forgiving. It's the New Testament way, a state of grace - unmerited favor.

Go thou and do likewise.

Amen...

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-22   14:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: Pinguinite (#194)

So, given that "eternity" in Scripture means "to the indistinct" or "to a distant unknown time" as opposed to "forever and ever", we realize that there is "forever and ever" Hell in the Scriptures. That's the first thing.

The second is that there is no Hell at all in the Scriptures.

Oh yes, sure, the word appears in the English translations, where it is used to translate various different concepts and words. That smearing together of words and concepts is a Christian tradition. It is not what the text actually says.

What the text actually says, Old Testament first, is that the spirits of the dead go into Sheol, the underworld of the dead. In the Greek translation of the Hebrew, Sheol is rendered as Hades, and Hades is also the generic word used in the New Testament Greek.

This was translated, in English, with the Scandinavian word "Hell", but Hell has a context of disgrace and punishment in its original Scandinavian form. Hades/Sheol do not.

Jesus then tells us the rest. In his parable of the rich man and Lazarus, he describes the underworld as divided into two parts: a hot, parched place where the rich man suffers, and a nice place where Abraham dwells (in the parable) with his offspring. A black chasm separates the two.

Elsewhere, in several places, Jesus speaks of "fiery Gehenna", of worms and fire. The fires of Gehenna are said to burn on and on, but that does not mean that the person who goes into Gehenna burns there "forever". Remember, there is no "forever".

What Jesus actually says, in the parable of the unforgiving servant, is that those who forgive are forgiven by God, but those who don't are imprisoned by God in torment "until the last denarius is paid".

Some say that the debt can never be repaid, but those who say that are ignoring what God says elsewhere about debt. Recall that in his Israel, debt was relaxed after six years, and even slavery was released after 49 years. God's model for the remission of debt of sin, then, is forgiven and be forgiven, but if not perfectly forgiven, pay the debt of sin in the prison of Gehenna. God forgives sin, but he does so proportionally to the forgiveness of other men by the sinning man.

This is very much not the traditional Christian doctrine, but it is what Jesus actually SAYS in the text.

So, we know what Gehenna is, and we know that the rich man was there, and we know that Jesus spoke of the prison of torment as payment for the unforgiven sins. We also know that God set a limit on debt, and that God's laws for Israel were representative of God himself.

When Jesus died, he promised the supportive criminal dying alongside him that today he would be with him in Paradise. This is the Greek rendering of Gan Eden.

So, the dead do not go the Heaven at all, and there is no Hell either. The dead descend into Sheol, which is Hades, the underworld, and those whose sins are forgiven proceed into Gan Eden/Paradise. Abraham is there. Those with unforgiven sins, a debt to pay, proceed to Gehenna, a fiery parched place, where they remain "until the last penny is paid" - and perhaps there is a remission after a certain period at which point God considers the debt paid - this is modeled by his law of Jubilee.

Jewish tradition is that Gehenna is a maximum of one year. The Scripture doesn't say that, but at least the Jewish tradition recognizes that one is in Gehenna and then Gan Eden/Paradise, as Jesus said, as opposed to in Heaven (which is the sky) or in Hell - which is not in the Bible at all.

There is nothing eternal - meaning "forever" - about either Paradise or Gehenna. Rather, at the end of the world, they are emptied as the dead are resurrected and face final judgment.

The City of God comes down OUT of the Sky, and those who pass final judgment walk through the gates into the City of God to live with God "for the eon" or "for eons of eons" - again, an open-ended term that means "for the age" or "for ages of ages" - a long time - but not unbounded "forever". There is no "forever" in the Bible - only long periods of unknown length, which is DIFFERENT.

Those who FAIL judgment are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the "Second Death". The Scripture does not say that they burn there alive forever. Jesus said that the "dead" whose spirits have gone into Sheol are actually alive, but here, he speaks of death with finality.

It is clear that there is no coming back out of the Lake of Fire. It is not at all revealed that the "dead" there are "alive" somehow and burning. There is no Gehenna to go back to. The text does not definitively say those spirits are utterly destroyed and permanently cease to exist, but the inference for that is strong given Jesus' use of the word "death", and he rejection of the use of "death" to mean mere physical death - the merely physically dead are alive - their spirits are alive - they are "sleeping", not dead. But the word "dead" is final with the lake of Fire.

It is Christian tradition that imagines that those thrown into the lake of fire are not really dead either, but alive as bodies and spirits screaming in the fire for all eternity. That is nowhere in the text. It is made up. Utter destruction can be inferred by the word "death" - perpetual torture in fire cannot be inferred at all. It is imported with the Scandinavian word "Hell", which never appears in the Scripture either.

Finally, the text does not say that all sinners with any sin are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Actually, what Jesus says is that at final judgment, those with certain sins only (and presumably those who have not paid the debt in Gehenna), are thrown into the Lake of Fire or left in outer darkness. The list is repeated twice, with some variation, on the last two pages of Scripture. Killers, liars and the sexually immoral are on both lists. Cowards are on one list. "Dogs" are on another. Thieves are on neither list.

That is what is actually IN the Bible. No Hell at all, nobody going TO Heaven - for now, down into Hades, then afterwards, back up, and into the City of God, which comes down to earth. Nobody goes to Heaven. Heaven comes down at the end.

Forgiveness of sin by God is obtained by men forgiving other men their sins. Imperfect forgiveness leaves a debt which is paid in Gehenna, where one remains UNTIL the sin is paid. It can be inferred that God has a limit on endurance of debt, because he heavily imposes such limits in his Law for the Hebrews, but if not there is still the resurrection at the end of the world, and final judgment.

After final judgment, those who pass are alive "for eons" (not forever and ever - nothing in the Bible is forever and ever), while those who fail are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the Second Death, which can be inferred to be total destruction, but cannot be inferred to be a perpetual screaming living torment, for there is no "perpetual" anything in the Bible.

Obviously the Bible is in rather violent contradiction with Christian tradition pretty much across the board. The parts of the Bible that reveal these things are said by Jesus himself, so are the most authoritative words of all, and are the correct understanding.

No Heaven for men. No Hell at all. No perpetual or eternal anything. Temporary Gehenna for the payment of unforgiven sins, and temporary Paradise for those forgiven or without sin. Then final judgment and living for eons with God in his City, if passed, or thrown body and spirit into the Lake of Fire for the second death, which can be inferred is utter annihilation. Without the inference, we can say "We don't know", but eternal agony cannot be inferred from the text. There is SOME oblique evidence for utter destruction, but no evidence at all for agony forever, because death is not agony, and because there is no "forever" in the Bible.

Yes, this is what the Bible has always said. Yes, it is clear, if one reads the words of the Hebrew and Greek carefully. Yes, this means that billions of Christians are wrong about this, and their traditions are in error.

No, nobody is going to accept that. They will, instead, state that Hell is there, and that "to the indistinct" means "forever and ever". They will be wrong, but they will rely on consensus gentium and the weight of historical tradition to remain sure in their wrongness.

That's what the Greek says.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-22   18:46:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Briefly, two points:

First: Let's say it doesn't say 'forever'. That doesn't mean it's NOT forever, as you claim. It just means we don't fully know.

Second: New Testament thought says that man has no ability, or capacity, to repay or make good for sin. That's why Jesus went to the cross, to pay that for us - that which we could not pay. So, to say that a certain amount of time or effort or anything by man will pay the debt of any sin is not right.

The new testament remedy for sin is the cross, and that's all.

So your thoughts need more thought.

But there is much worth considering in what you say. It will take some years to properly consider it all.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-22   23:55:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Does this mean forever? Most think so but it really kind of means 'for so long you don't need to think of an amount, just keep doing it.'

But that's forever, isn't it?

Things get strange when God talks to us about time. He doesn't dwell in a place with time and there aren't great ways to explain that to creatures who do dwell in time - which he created for us.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-23   9:12:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: Liberator (#198)

It may or may not seem "fair", but God's Purpose can't be questioned.

We absolutely can question what God's purpose is. I think you mean it cannot be challenged, which is fine. But under the Christian model, what is God's purpose? To glorify himself? What is the point of our own existence? Newton provides a better answer than Christianity does, in my view.

The Newton Model lacks any personal love, respect, and pleasing of our Father. In its post-mortal "purgatory" lies a sterile, impersonal vacuum of inconsequence for either Obedience OR Disobedience; Of neither Accountability; Reward nor Justice nor Judgement NOR "Resolution" or Validation upon "life-after-life".

I feel I've rebutted this perspective of yours many times. It seems we are failing to communicate, which is probably an unavoidable situation, given our differences.

(Yet unanswered: By what or whose standard is "wrong" or "right" amended and validated?)

I do agree that under the Newton model, this answer is much more complex than under the Christian model. But we as souls are more complex also.

All things must have a "Beginning" and End", an Alpha and Omega. The Newton Model also conspicuously lacks any, "In The Beginning" and thus far, there is no "End" (unless I've overlooked something).

There is no religious model that offers any beginning that I know of. The question of "Where did God come from?" has no answer, including in the Newton model. But we as souls do have a beginning under the Newton model, which makes more sense than the biochemical answer Christianity (and Judaism & Islam) offers. But proper understanding of an end is hardly a necessity in validating any faith, in my view.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   10:04:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: Liberator (#199)

Don't many already eventually understand the guilt of harming of others and repentance in this life?

We don't always understand such morality fully. Experience is the best teacher, and that is what earthly life gives us. Experience. It helps us grow. It's why earth exists. It why the universe exists. It's the reason for the big bang. The universe is a playground or gymnasium of sorts, created for us to grow. Under Newton, The universe has a pragmatic purpose. Under Christianity, not so much.

IF this atonement/penance goes on indefinitely, there no *last* innocent man if a past-life murderer require a next-life murderer.

Such issues are not a concern for us. There are few, if any, accidents in life. In spite of our free will, the significant people we encounter are nearly always by pre-arrangement. It is known in advance if a point in time were to come when murder would cease, and if so, an indebted soul would have alternate arrangements. Every life, every soul is unique, and infinitely so.

EDIT: With respect to "Growth", we are to grow is spirit and in Godly wisdom and understanding IN THIS ONE LIFE. This is it. One shot deal.

And is a single life long enough to make any meaningful progress in quashing vices and embellishing virtues & wisdom? Uncle Joe spent his whole life grumpy and died a grumpy, angry old man. He knew what he was and tried to change, but it was hard. Under the Newton model, Uncle Joe has much more time to change. Lots more time, as much as he needs. Under Christianity, yes, like you said, it's a one shot deal.

You keep on referring to "Growth". INTO WHAT? TO WHOM DOES THIS PROCESS PLEASE? TO WHAT END?

"Into what"? It's not a mutation or transformation. It's growth, into stronger, wiser and more powerful souls. To what end? That's not completely clear but it seems we would eventually rejoin God.

How sure, how convinced will you be in your deathbed of the Newton Model? Will you have *any* doubt that the very next face you see the second after you pass will be unnamed, unknown entities, Newtonian "Counselors"? OR, before the Throne of God? (just asking)

I don't know. On your death bed, can you predict what will be going trough your mind? Will you have any doubts about Christianity? If you answer "no", will that be because you fully anticipate that will be the case, or it is simply a way for you, today, to do your duty as a Christian to please God by demonstrating loyalty as you believe he has commanded?

In other words, would you be willing to lie to please God?

I can say that the Newton model does, for me, in academic terms, ring more true than Christianity, and I would claim to have experienced validation of it in my own personal life. If God is to punish me because my head knowledge or abstract degree of confidence in this single subject of religion is found unpleasing, then He will do so not because of what I believe, but because of what I am. And what I am, is honest.

Can you be sure that those "Counselors" are merely cackling demons who've mislead you?

No more than you can be convinced that demons have not misled you.

May you keep on searching for the truth, brutha.

The same to you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   10:48:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: Vicomte13 (#201)

Thank you very much, Vic, for expounding.

I think I generally get the picture. Souls are not necessarily immortal, and in the end, souls that are condemned are permanently destroyed. It seems the rather antiquated Catholic concept of purgatory is allowed for here, and all who are saved enter God's kingdom at the same time.

I am aware that Greek mythology predated Christianity, of course, and the Greeks did conquer the present middle east, even to present day India, hundreds of years before the time of Jesus, and I also know that cultures and beliefs both mix as peoples interact and mingle over the long term. So I wonder how much of what you stated might have origins in Greek mythology? I ask that both because some of your information is sourced in Greek writings, and it also somehow seems reminiscent of Greek mythology. I hope that suggestion isn't offensive.

I guess I could go more to the point by simply asking you why it is that this ancient writing should be considered accurate theology, and not other ancient writings such as Egyption mythology, Hinduism, Buddism and even other Greek mythological writings that depict a polytheistic universe? All of which predate Christianity. If the age of a writing is a deciding factor in it's authority, why not go back to even more ancient writings?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   11:06:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: Biff Tannen (#202)

First: Let's say it doesn't say 'forever'. That doesn't mean it's NOT forever, as you claim. It just means we don't fully know.

Second: New Testament thought says that man has no ability, or capacity, to repay or make good for sin. That's why Jesus went to the cross, to pay that for us - that which we could not pay. So, to say that a certain amount of time or effort or anything by man will pay the debt of any sin is not right.

The new testament remedy for sin is the cross, and that's all.

Actually "To a distant time", and "to the horizon past the horizon" means "not forever". God never promised Israel to the Jews "forever". He promised it to them "to a distant time". That "distant time" came when Jesus pronounced the doom on the vineyard.

"To a distant time" does not imply forever.

"Until the last penny is paid" means "not forever".

As far as the remedy for sin being the cross, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus never said that. Apostles seemed to say it, but Jesus said something very different. Jesus said that to be forgiven, you must forgive, and that if you do not, that God will not forgive you either, but if you do, God will forgive.

Jesus is God. Paul is not. They are in conflict. Jesus trumps.

You need to understand the hierarchy of divine authority much more clearly. You have placed the Bible at the top. Wrong. God is at the top, and what God says directly in the Bible trumps the REST of the Bible, which is just men speaking under the inspiration of God. Where the Bible conflicts, and it does on this very matter, you have Jesus saying one thing, and men saying another thing. The men are to be disregarded, because Jesus is God..

That is the only proper way to read the Bible. Everything else - treating Paul's words as equal in authority to Jesus, is a direct defiance of God when God said from the sky "THIS is my beloved Son, listen to HIM." HE said that to be forgiven your sins by God, you must forgive the sins of others, otherwise you pay for those sins, for a time.

The remedy of other writers is the cross alone. No. The way that is to be properly read is that IF you understand what the Cross is, then you will understand that Jesus is Lord, and THEREFORE you will listen to HIM - and HE says that you are forgiven your sins ONLY IF you forgive others theirs. That's it. That's the ONE way that JESUS said you can be forgiven your sins - you MUST forgive.

The blood of Jesus is supposed to make you realize that you have to listen to Jesus. But if you think that the blood of Jesus removes your sins, without your having to actually OBEY Jesus when he says YOU WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN YOUR SINS if you don't forgive other men, then you're overruling Jesus with other parts of the Bible, treating the Bible itself as above Jesus, and lapsing into idolatry.

The Blood of Jesus will not forgive anybody's sins unless they LISTEN to Jesus and forgive others. Jesus said that, and THAT is the law. Paul can never override Jesus, not ever. Where Paul and Jesus contradicts, Paul is always wrong. The Bible is not the highest authority - it conflicts. Jesus WITHIN the BIble is the highest authority, because God within the Bible says so. So, the rest of the Bible is subordinate to Jesus in the Bible, and HE said that the only way to be forgiven sins is by forgiving them. Therefore that is the only way, and the Churches that says that the cross does it are wrong, and have always been wrong. Forgiveness is the only way, because Jesus said so, and jJesus is always 100% right by definition, because God said to listen to HIM.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   13:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: Biff Tannen (#203)

It means that you have to keep forgiving.

Unless one is a Biblical literalist, like a Young Earth Creationist who insists on the seven literal days of creation. Then it means that you must forgive others precisely 490 times, and after that, no more.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   13:27:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: Pinguinite (#206)

Souls are not necessarily immortal,

f the age of a writing is a deciding factor in it's authority, why not go back to even more ancient writings?

Because the only physical miracles that exist that are actually examinable in a forensic laboratory, and that have been examined and found to be scientifically inexplicable, are all Christian (except for three or four incorrupt Bhuddist monks, who seem to exhibit incorruption, but who have not been forensically examined).

So, the only proven miracles are all Christian. Two of them pertain directly to the body of Jesus: the image on his burial shroud, and his heart tissue, containing the same blood as on the shroud, from 600 years later.

None of the other gods, texts, mythologies have any scientific proof, and so can be dismissed as stories. The story of Jesus has to be taken more seriously because something broke the laws of physics to assert, through laboratory-examinable miracle, the physics breaking quality of Jesus.

That's why we focus on Jesus and disregard the rest: God proves HIS divinity through evidence. God leaves NO evidence at all for any of the other legends, stories, myths and writings - other than perhaps a head not to the individual holiness of a handful of Bhuddist monks.

Jesus was important enough for God to override the laws of nature to leave provable evidence - evidence that can survive modern computation, electron microscopy and forensic science. Without that, ALL of the religious texts could be - and probably should be - dismissed as myths. Their science is all cockamamie. We know better.

With Jesus, though, we have miracles. So we have to treat this one differently.

All that we know about him is written in five ancient scrolls. Incidentally, we have no more words and teaching and documentary evidence of any other person from the First Century than him. The direct quotation of Jesus exceeds the direct quotation of any other person in the Roman Empire from the First Century. God thought Jesus was important enough to waive the laws of physics and insert miracles into the world so that 21st Century scientists would have to look at him - and ONLY him - based on the evidence. There are no other forensically examinable miracles - None. But there ARE Christian miracles, and on examination, they are not scientifically explicable.

So, from the aspects of the religions and ancient texts that contradict what we know scientifically about the universe, we know that they are all poppycock. But Jesus himself gets a saving throw, because the same nature we study to know that the creation myths are all legends and not true is the nature that gave us the Shroud and the Lanciano heart tissue and blood, and they ARE miraculous, nature-defying.

So we've got science itself pointing at Jesus, while simultaneously debunking all of the other religious stories, because they tell us an origin of the world that is false.

Jesus doesn't tell us the origin of the world. The Jews do, but Jesus didn't teach about that. Rather, Jesus taught a specific set of moral rules, and made those moral rules the criteria to be accepted by the Father and allowed to live on after death in a good way, as a spirit, and then to be reunited with a body at the resurrection, and to live on after that with God.

What Jesus said is what is important, and he is confined to four overlapping texts from four pens, that provide four witness viewpoints - better testimony than for any OTHER ancient figure, and a fifth text (Revelation) in which he tells the hearer to take dictation.

THAT is why THOSE texts, and not any of the other ones.

Now, Jesus came out of a culture, Hellenic Judaism, and he used the reference points and texts of his culture to teach his hearers, which sort of bootstraps in the Hebrew old testament texts as a source of learning and example, but NOT of the same weight or authority as the only guy for whom God actually overrode the physics and left us miracles we can all examine in the lab.

That's why it's JUST Jesus, and that's why the other texts have SOME importance, but not the SAME importance as what he says.

With "soul", again the English fouls us up. What the Hebrew says is that we are a breath (the word "spirit" means "breath" or "wind") from God that animates a body made of dirt. When the breath and the body are bound together, that unit is called a "nephesh", which we have translated into English as a "soul". At physical death, the SPIRIT departs into Sheol - which is either Gan Eden or Gehenna - while the BODY falls back to dust. "Man, thou art dust, and to dust thou shall return". Since the "SOUL" is the UNION of BODY and BREATH/SPIRIT - a "breather" in the original language - the SOUL ceases to exist at physical death. Only the SPIRIT goes on, into the afterlife of Sheol. Spirits without a debt of sin go straight to Gan Eden, which is the Paradise Garden of God: back to Eden. Everybody else pays for sin in Gehenna "until the last penny is paid", to quote Jesus.

Now, God's law given to the Hebrews gives us some inkling that God does not permit debts to be held forever - after 6, or 49 - years God compelled the forgiveness of all debt under his law, so PERHAPS the payment in the hot prison of Gehenna

[LONG PARENTHETICAL] (which is described by Jesus as hell-ISH, but should not be called "Hell", because that is a Scandinavian pagan and Christian term that imply things that Jesus did NOT say - we should be precise about language so as to not drag in all of the errors of the ages, and just use the direct terms that Jesus used),

[RESUME SENTENCE] is time limited. Jesus said "until", not "forever". In any event, Jesus said that the dead are not dead - they are asleep.

At the end of the world, Jesus said that all SPIRITS will be called and put back into bodies - SOULS again - living people - and the person will be judged. Those who pass judgment will enter as SOULS - spirit + body: living people, through the gates of pearl into the City of God, which will come down from the sky (nobody "goes TO heaven" - Heaven is just the sky in the Scripture). Those who fail may wail outside in darkness, as souls. Or they may be thrown as souls - bodies bound with spirits - into the lake of fire for the second death. This, Jesus indicates, really IS death, which strongly implies that not only is the body burnt up - thereby destroying the SOUL, because the SPIRIT is stripped from the body, and a SOUL is a bound spirit and body - but also perhaps the spirit itself, which is a breath of God in its origin, is burnt up and gone, destroyed.

That is the best read, though one can fuss at some of the margins. It does not fit Christian theology very well, because Christian theology has confused spirit and soul, making them synonyms, has confused Gehenna and the Lake of Fire with each other, and labelled both as "Hell", which never appears, has confused the Garden of Eden - Paradise, and also the City of God, with the sky (Heaven), and confuses "to a distant time" with "forever". The Christian tradition has changed all of the goalposts of what Jesus said. What JESUS said is actually internally consistent, and gives a clear and non-contradictory structure that fits seamlessly with everything that GOD HIMSELF said directly in the entire Bible. It conflicts somewhat with things that OTHER speakers in the Bible said, including Apostles and other writers, and it certainly conflicts quite sharply with what Christians believe about Heaven, Hell and the Afterlife.

So, the Christians are wrong and Jesus is right, and we should listen to him - Just him - not "Him PLUS", because the plus conflicts, and none of the plus has any ancient physical miracles we can look at in the lab, but HE does.

Since ALL of the miracles that we can examine are of Jesus, therefore laboratory science proves that Jesus is divine more probably than not, and we should listen to him. Since all other religious texts and sources, including other parts of the Bible, and other religions, and the beliefs OF the Christian religion, conflict with Jesus, we should ignore and discard all of the rest of it and listen to Jesus, JUST Jesus, JESUS ALONE, because HE is the only God who has actually PROVEN himself with physical miracles that even MIT can acknowledge, while all of the rest is piffle, jibber jabber and mere words - and words are wind.

Physical miracles are real proof. I will only believe that which proves itself by miracle. So I will listen to Jesus, because he has done so.

Now, I have had my own miracles from God, which is why I was so dogged about pursuing the actual miracles myself. That is the source of my focus on miracle. I KNOW, but nobody else can, or should, believe in God because I say I have miracles - I could be a liar or a lunatic or a storyteller just like all of the writers of all of those ancient texts.

When the laws of physics put a three-D photographic negative of a man on a piece of LINEN, and somehow that cloth makes it through 2000 years to the forensic lab, along with its linen facecloth companion, while every OTHER piece of cloth from the First Century has crumbled to dust - and the blood on the cloth turns out to be the same very rare blood as from another miracle, of heart tissue, from 600 years and 1500 miles later - and modern American and Western European scientists (i.e.: not superstitious yokels from the undeveloped world) look at these things and say "Yep, they really ARE images and blood, and thus and so - and they really are inexplicable, as no known or postulated process could do that" - THEN I can apply the same inductive reasoning as is used in the rest of science to say -OK, God did this.

And since God ONLY did it for things pertaining to Christ, that means that I suspend disbelief - which is universal for ALL religious and superstitious nonsense and mythology and old fables and fictions of the ancients, and say "I guess I have to take THIS one more seriously, out of all of the crap". Then I read Jesus, and I see a clear moral code that really makes sense, though its hard, I see a promise that fits my OWN miracles, and I realize: That's the voice of God. I know that voice.

So, that's how I know. And that's why none of the rest cut it at all. The world is on the back of a turtle? Please. That's ridiculous.

Mohammed? Well, maybe, except he directly opposed the divine nature of Jesus, but the miracles prove otherwise, so nope. The Greeks and their gods? Nice symbols of nature, but real? We can climb and fly drones up Mount Olympus. There's nothing there but snow.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   14:06:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: Vicomte13 (#209)

When the laws of physics put a three-D photographic negative of a man on a piece of LINEN, and somehow that cloth makes it through 2000 years to the forensic lab, along with its linen facecloth companion, while every OTHER piece of cloth from the First Century has crumbled to dust - and the blood on the cloth turns out to be the same very rare blood as from another miracle, of heart tissue, from 600 years and 1500 miles later - and modern American and Western European scientists (i.e.: not superstitious yokels from the undeveloped world) look at these things and say "Yep, they really ARE images and blood, and thus and so - and they really are inexplicable, as no known or postulated process could do that" - THEN I can apply the same inductive reasoning as is used in the rest of science to say -OK, God did this

Can you post a link to a site that modern American and Western European scientists will verify the scientific claims you make above?

Thanks.

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-23   14:35:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: Vicomte13 (#207)

Actually "To a distant time", and "to the horizon past the horizon" means "not forever". God never promised Israel to the Jews "forever". He promised it to them "to a distant time". That "distant time" came when Jesus pronounced the doom on the vineyard.

"To a distant time" does not imply forever.

"Until the last penny is paid" means "not forever".

Yes, I must agree with this.

As far as the remedy for sin being the cross, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus never said that. Apostles seemed to say it, but Jesus said something very different.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten you think like this. Ok, we won't change each others mind about this but you said what you thought so I'll say what I think at we can leave it at that.

I don't put the bible above God, like you said, at all.

Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. I think the bible is written by men as God directed them. That's all of it, gospels, epistles, and the words in red. That's the written word of god, not the spoken word - that which proceedeth from his mouth.

There is no conflict between Paul and Jesus or any of the books and authors. It's all the same source and is laid out as God wanted it to be and tells a whole story. You can't just say this part doesn't matter and this part does. Some parts are hard to reconcile but that's ok, it takes a while to understand how it all fits together.

In the New Testament era God intended that he would deal with us one-on-one individually, as He had always intended it to be. 'You will have no need of a teacher, the holy spirit will teach you', and so on. Have faith in God. He can get through to us well enough.

Not an indepth explanation but typing on an ipad here, you get the picture.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-23   15:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: tpaine (#210)

Can you post a link to a site that modern American and Western European scientists will verify the scientific claims you make above?

Thanks.

No. I read a couple of books assembled by STURP. I don't have a link. A long time ago there was a site about the Shroud that had links to things such as the Thermochemica Acta publication about vanillin dating.

There was no simple site I consulted, but different places and research papers and publications. I was examining the data to satisfy my own curiosity, not to persuade others, and I did not save a paper trail.

I think there was a site called "Shroudstory" that contained some links to some of these things.

Can't help you past there.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   16:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: Vicomte13 (#209)

Interesting, and it seems you've answered my challenge well. Thank you.

I would also be interested in the scientific-based, pro-divine arguments in favor of the Shroud. Last time I considered it some 20 years ago, it seems the science was saying the shroud was likely a middle-age forgery.

On the Newton side, we have contemporary claims of accounts of reincarnation, at least one of which is, in my view, beyond any reasonable accusation of fakery and is certainly well beyond coincidence. At the same time, reincarnation is not a new concept in the least, as it's been believed in some cultures, mainly eastern, for thousands of years. And if I'm not mistake, was also considered in early Christianity, since then labeled heresy.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   17:02:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: Biff Tannen (#211)

Thanks for that. When I hear Jesus say to Satan "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God", what I hear Jesus saying is that I need to listen for the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God - words said BY God.

To me, words "inspired by God", words and things that men do because they are filled with spirit for God and write about God, are not words "proceeding forth out of the mouth of God". They are words proceeding forth out of the pen of a man who is inspired by God, to be sure, but they are not words being spoken by God.

I think that the words that "proceed forth out of the mouth of God" are those words that are recorded as having been spoken aloud by God. And that THOSE words are the only words to which Jesus is referring.

The Law - all of the binding provisions of the Torah - are all entirely spoken directly by God to Moses. The text says "And God said..." Then there's lots of history and writing ABOUT God, and wisdom about God, but very, very little in the rest of the Old Testament, outside of a couple of the prophets, that are words spoken directly by God.

Wherever God speaks in the Bible, with the exception of some places in isaiah and Ezekiel, the text always makes it EXPLICIT that GOD is speaking, out loud and directly. THOSE words are the words that "proceeded forth out of the mouth of God" - to proceed forth out of the mouth of anybody, they have to be spoken aloud BY THAT PERSON. Those words, only, are the words to which Jesus referred.

Those are the only AUTHORITATIVE words in the Bible, as I read Jesus to literally say.

So THOSE are the words I isolate. Of course I read the context, but then I take THOSE words and I stack them up. Now, THOSE words really don't conflict.

But then the other stuff, which is 93% of the words of the text (I have counted), are all stuff that did NOT proceed directly forth out of the mouth of God. Under the emprise of God men wrote those things, but some of the things that men wrote in their inspired enthusiasm actually CONTRADICT some of the things that God said directly.

Now, one of the most important things that God said directly, to a crowd out witnesses at the Jordan where John was baptizing, was "This is my beloved Son, LISTEN to HIM."

So, there I have a commandment that is proceeding forth out of the mouth of God, directing me to listen to JESUS, specifically. With that, it doesn't MATTER to me anymore what Jesus' status is relative to God - I've been told he's God's son, by God - not more - and I've been commanded to listen to HIM.

So THAT is what I do.

He, then, tells the Devil that man lives by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God, so I DO pay very close attention to the purple letter words of the Old Testament - and guess what! - in those, God explicitly says that the Laws he gives at Sinai are for the Hebrews and their descendants in Israel, not for the world. THAT is why "The Law" does not apply to Gentiles - Jesus did not release US from it, WE were never under it. He was talking in his life only to Jews, and THEY were under the Law, so the Law figures prominently, but when he talks to Jews, he says he is not changing the Law (of Moses) by a penstroke - which MEANS That NO, NONE of the Old Testament law applies to Gentiles, because God SAID they didn't back when he gave the laws, and Jesus did not change The Law.

Jesus DID give new laws and new moral precepts for the NEW covenant - new wine in a new bottle. And THAT is the law for a Gentile like me. Where Jesus is telling Jews what THEIR law means, he is NOT extending that law to me, because he said he was not changing the Law of Moses at all, and THAT Law says directly, explicitly, dozens of times, right out of the mouth of God, that it applies only to the Hebrews and their circumcised, obedient descendants in Israel.

I'm part Saami. My people could not exist at all if God had intended to Sabbath to be for mankind. The Long Night of the North lasts for 70 days, and the Long Day of summer lasts for 90. If either of those fell on a Saturday, the whole race would be dead from starvation or freezing from the inability to work or light a fire for two or three months - IF the Sabbath applied to the Saami.

But it never did. Not before Jesus, and not after. Jesus did not free ME from the Law, I was never under ANY of it. The Law was for the Jews. Jesus DID establish a "New Deal", a new covenant, for individuals (only - no tribes), and that is the New Covenant. THAT is the law we need to know.

And obeying Jesus has nothing to do with what one THINKS about Jesus, it has to do with what one does vis a vis other men, and God. Blasphemy against Jesus will be forgiven, he promised.

The religion given by Jesus contains very, very little of the things in it that Christians go on about. It DOES contain a few short, stern, hard-to-do things, such as don't lie, forgive, don't hurt, and be extremely charitable, giving and loving.

It is my experience that Christians prefer to change Jesus' hard acts-based religion into an easy religion of mere thoughts. I read Jesus as saying nothing like that, and God told me (in the text) to listen to HIM. In this life, in my own experiences and miracles point me towards Jesus and some of the things he said, and not towards what other men say and have said.

So, I stick with him. What I believe fits within the Catholic Church, although it is a much smaller footprint, and the Catholic Church does not pay attention to individuals. I was baptized there as a baby, and I stick with the one who brung me.

It's why arguing religion with me is so pointless. I've seen miracles, I've studied miracles, I've talked to God, and I listen to God. And I read the Scriptures exactly as I have said above. I am certain I am right, and I don't have tremors of doubt.

So what's the point of arguing religion with me? I'm not listening, really. I don't really care what other people believe. I do know what is right - and that's what I focus on: DOING what Jesus said to DO. As long as you DO it, you are following him. He said that.

So all of agina about who believes what? It's just pointless, to my eyes and mind. I do like to offer my alternative view to the traditions, because I think the world would be a whole lot better if people just listened to Jesus and did what he SAID to do, rather than focus on all of the easier nonsense that people make up to create a lot of ecclesial jobs and to keep people socially organized.

I get the picture of what you said, and thank you for it. Perhaps we should call it a day?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-23   17:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God", what I hear Jesus saying is that I need to listen for the words that proceed forth out of the mouth of God - words said BY God.

You don't believe in God of the Bible. You believe a self serving piece of shit who calls himself God's name.

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools describes Vic to a t.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

I do like to offer my alternative view to the traditions,

Screw your alternative lizard and mouse raising from the dead bullshit. Real followers of Christ don't pray to Mary. Jesus never said to do that you idiot.

Deceiving and being deceived also describes your prideful arrogant ass.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:16:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

is my experience that Christians prefer to change Jesus' hard

That is what you do all the time deceiver.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:19:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: Pinguinite (#193)

Except for those who went through their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel. Correct or no?

Not exactly.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:39:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

Thank you. I'm sure we have much common ground.

Biff Tannen  posted on  2018-06-23   19:39:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: Pinguinite (#193)

can understand your own lack of patience with people. But when you say those people are already lost causes destined for hell, what you are doing is ascribing your own level of intolerance to God. But God is better than you. Better than me too.

I think anyone can be saved no matter the sin.

I just don't believe everyone changes and regrets wrongs they have commited.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:41:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: Vicomte13 (#214)

listening, really. I don't really care what other people believe. I do know what is right - and that's what I focus on: DOING what Jesus said to DO. As long as you DO it, you are following him. He said that.

Where did Jesus say to pray to mary?

Where did Jesus say to obey the sinful popes?

When did Jesus say that some scripture isn't God inspired?

He didn't now make up some more bullshit.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-23   19:45:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: A K A Stone (#220)

I just don't believe everyone changes and regrets wrongs they have commited.

There's a lot of truth in that statement. The degree to which people have empathy and regret at harming others varies. Some people feel quite strongly on these points while other feel little. This is where experience makes a difference. The more we understand the harm we have done or might do to others, the stronger these sentiments are.

And this is the value gained in returning in subsequent lives which are destined to suffer hardship as we imposed. It teaches us what it's like first hand. It's what makes reincarnation a beautiful tool.

Under the Newton model, This is the value of hardship in life. Hardships under the Christian model don't have such a clear reason in our lives.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-23   19:57:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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