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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: A Crucial Archaeological Dating Tool Is Wrong, And It Could Change History as We Know It
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.sciencealert.com/radioc ... egion-calibration-inaccuracies
Published: Jun 6, 2018
Author: MIKE MCRAE
Post Date: 2018-06-06 21:41:38 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 35829
Comments: 248

One of the most important dating tools used in archaeology may sometimes give misleading data, new study shows - and it could change whole historical timelines as a result.

The discrepancy is due to significant fluctuations in the amount of carbon- 14 in the atmosphere, and it could force scientists to rethink how A comparison of radiocarbon ages across the Northern Hemisphere suggests we might have been a little too hasty in assuming how the isotope - also known as radiocarbon - diffuses, potentially shaking up controversial conversations on the timing of events in history.

By measuring the amount of carbon-14 in the annual growth rings of trees grown in southern Jordan, researchers have found some dating calculations on events in the Middle East – or, more accurately, the Levant – could be out by nearly 20 years.

That may not seem like a huge deal, but in situations where a decade or two of discrepancy counts, radiocarbon dating could be misrepresenting important details.

The science behind the dating method is fairly straightforward: nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere hit with cosmic radiation are converted into a type of carbon with eight neutrons. This carbon – which has an atomic mass of 14 – has a chance of losing that neutron to turn into a garden variety carbon isotope over a predictable amount of time.

By comparing the two categories of carbon in organic remains, archaeologists can judge how recently the organism that left them last absorbed carbon-14 out of its environment.

Over millennia the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes, meaning measurements need to be calibrated against a chart that takes the atmospheric concentration into account, such as INTCAL13.

The current version of INTCAL13 is based on historical data from North America and Europe, and has a fairly broad resolution over thousands of years. Levels do happen to spike on a local and seasonal basis with changes in the carbon cycle, but carbon-14 is presumed to diffuse fast enough to ignore these tiny bumps.

At least, that was the assumption until now.

"We know from atmospheric measurements over the last 50 years that radiocarbon levels vary through the year, and we also know that plants typically grow at different times in different parts of the Northern Hemisphere," says archaeologist Sturt Manning from Cornell University.

"So we wondered whether the radiocarbon levels relevant to dating organic material might also vary for different areas and whether this might affect archaeological dating."

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

"Our work indicates that it's arguable their fundamental basis is faulty – they are using a calibration curve that is not accurate for this region," says Manning.

Collecting additional data from different geographical areas and taking a closer look at historical climate trends could help sharpen calibration techniques, especially in hotly debated regions.

For the time being, archaeologists covering history in the Levant are being advised to take their dates with a pinch of salt.

This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.they use ancient organic remains to measure the passing of time.

www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/05/23/1719420115

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#7. To: A K A Stone (#0)

The tree rings were samples of Jordanian juniper that grew in the southern region of the Middle East between 1610 and 1940 CE. By counting the tree rings, the team were able to create a reasonably accurate timeline of annual changes in carbon-14 uptake for those centuries.

Alarmingly, going by INTCAL13 alone, those same radiocarbon measurements would have provided dates that were older by an average of 19 years.

The difference most likely comes down to changes in regional climates, such as warming conditions. Extrapolating the findings back to earlier periods, archaeologists attempting to pinpoint Iron Age or Biblical events down to a few years would no doubt have a serious need to question their calibrations.

One controversial example is the dating of a single layer of archaeology at the Bronze and Iron Age city buried at Tel Rehov.

Just a few decades of difference could help resolve an ongoing debate over the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom, making findings like these more than a minor quibble in a politically contested part of the world.

Hmmm...I see their assertions here but was unaware that anyone considered 19 years margin of error in carbon dating to be significant. No one ever considered it that accurate to begin with.

Nor do they detail how they think a difference of 19 years would give us more meaningful info about the size and distribution of Solomon's kingdom. Or why that would have a modern geopolitical impact.

Maybe there is something to this academic dispute but the article hasn't fleshed it out for the reader.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   0:26:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Tooconservative (#7)

Hmmm...I see their assertions here but was unaware that anyone considered 19 years margin of error in carbon dating to be significant.

It's not even an eye blink when related to the age of the planet.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-06-07   8:37:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: sneakypete (#15)

It's not even an eye blink when related to the age of the planet.

Sure but science doesn't date the earth's age by carbon dating. They use other means of providing an estimate.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   9:56:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Tooconservative (#20)

Sure but science doesn't date the earth's age by carbon dating. They use other means of providing an estimate.

The means used rely on radioactive decay, which is a function of "c".

There are two things to note.

First: radioactive decay rates are affected by the strength of solar output. We don't know why, but it has been observed in some experiments.

Second:

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-07   13:37:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Vicomte13 (#21)

Scientific American:

It was not until 1926, when (under the influence of Arthur Holmes, whose name recurs throughout this story) the National Academy of Sciences adopted the radiometric timescale, that we can regard the controversy as finally resolved. Critical to this resolution were improved methods of dating, which incorporated advances in mass spectrometry, sampling and laser heating. The resulting knowledge has led to the current understanding that the earth is 4.55 billion years old.

That takes us to the end of this series of papers but not to the end of the story. As with so many good scientific puzzles, the question of the age of the earth resolves itself on more rigorous examination into distinct components. Do we mean the age of the solar system, or of the earth as a planet within it, or of the earth-moon system, or the time since formation of the earth’s metallic core, or the time since formation of the earliest solid crust? Such questions remain under active investigation, using as clues variations in isotopic distribution, or anomalies in mineral composition, that tell the story of the formation and decay of long-vanished short-lived isotopes. Isotopic ratios between stable isotopes both on the earth and in meteorites are coming under increasingly close scrutiny, to see what they can tell us about the ultimate sources of the very atoms that make up our planet. We can look forward to new answers—and new questions. That’s how science works.

Carbon dating plays little if any role in current estimates of the earth's age. It's too flawed.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-07   13:46:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Tooconservative (#22)

Carbon dating plays little if any role in current estimates of the earth's age. It's too flawed.

It's not just that. All of the Carbon 14 is gone after 50,000 years, so you can't use it to tell the difference between 51,000 and 500 million years old: zero is zero.

Carbon dating no longer provides any information before 48,000 BC or so.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-07   23:26:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#34)

It's not just that. All of the Carbon 14 is gone after 50,000 years, so you can't use it to tell the difference between 51,000 and 500 million years old: zero is zero.

Carbon dating no longer provides any information before 48,000 BC or so.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this since it is not true. It is not zero C14 after 50,000 years at all.

We have methods of carbon dating that go back as far as 75,000 years and we could develop it further if we wanted to. We just don't have any real need to do so as we have other isotopes to measure and other dating methods we use.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-08   3:08:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Tooconservative (#36)

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this since it is not true. It is not zero C14 after 50,000 years at all.

We have methods of carbon dating that go back as far as 75,000 years and we could develop it further if we wanted to. We just don't have any real need to do so as we have other isotopes to measure and other dating methods we use.

I keep repeating it because it is true.

Carbon-14 has a half life of 5730 years, under presently observed conditions, and there isn't all that much of it to begin with. In living tissue, there is about 1 C-14 atom for every trillion Carbon atoms. One part per trillion, 1 C-14 atom for every 10 to the 12th Carbon atoms. That's a low concentration.

Let's consider a human body. By weight, carbon makes up only 18.5% of the human body. So a 150 pound living man is composed of 27.75 pounds of carbon, 99% of that carbon is C-12, 1% is C-14. So, 2.775 times 10 to the negative 11th power pounds of C-14 atoms are in the living man, which is to say that there are 623,879,200,000,000,000 C-14 atoms in a living 150 pound man. Once he stops breathing and stops eating, there is no more C-14 being added.

The half life is 5730. So, in 5730 years there will be 311,939,600,000,000,000 C-14 atoms left in his remains. Of course, if there are any remains, they will have been diluted by whatever is preserving them.

In 11,460 years there will be 155,969,800,000,000,000 C-14 atoms left

In 17,190 years there will be 77,984,900,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 22,920 years, there will be 38,992,450,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 28,650 years there will be 19,496,225,000,000,000 C-14s left.

In 34,380 years there will be 9,748,112,500,000,000 C-14s left.

In 40,110 years there will be 4,874,056,250,000,000 C-14s left.

In 45,840 years there will be 2,437,028,125,000,000 C-14s left.

In 51,610 years there will be 1,218,514,962,500,000 C-14s left.

That isn't much left from the original same, less than two-tenths of one percent.

And of course this assumes that one is carbon dating a whole, intact human corpse, a 150 pound sample. Radiocarbon dating is not done on 150 pound samples. The machines can't hold anything like that. The sample sizes used are 100 GRAM samples - THAT is what fits into the machines.

So, let's take the remains of that 150 pound man and look at the actual sample size we can test. 150 pounds is 67200 grams. We're only going to be able to test .0014880952380952 of that sample.

So, at the 51,610 year point, there are only 1,813,266,313,244 C-14 atoms left in the testable sample. That's small, but detectable.

Go one cycle further, to 57,340 years, and the number of atoms in the total sample drops to the 902,633,156,622 range, which is quite a bit smaller than the US budget in dollars, and at the bare limits of our ability to detect.

Using very long test times and super-sensitive equipment, that have been able to manage to extend Carbon-14 testing to 75,000 years. No farther.

It is not hard to see why. At 63,070 years you've only got 453 billion C-14s left in your whole sample.

At 68,800 years, you're down to 226.6 billion C-14s left.

And at 74,530 years, you're down to 113.3 billion atoms, in a sample size of 5 septillion atoms, which is to say 1 part in 24 trillion. Our technology is not capable of reliably sorting that out.

You can see, then, why C-14 cannot possibly be used to date dinosaurs. The last dinosaurs are said to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

Let's keep running our math.

At 80,260 years, there are 56.65 billion C-14s left in our sample.

At 85,990 years there are 28.325 billion C-14s left in our sample. We're already well below our threshold of detection, but they are there, at least theoretically. We cannot confirm this by direct observation, but we have to assume it is so.

At 91,720 years where are 14.16 billion atoms left.

At 97,450 years, 7.08 billion.

At 103,180 years, 3.54 billion.

Go back 57,300 more years, to 160,480 years, and you're down to 3.45 MILLION C-14s left. You're trying to find a single marked grain of sand on the California cost.

Go back another 57,300 years, and you have 3376 Carbon 14 atoms left in your sample.

Go back yet another 57,300 years, and there are 4 Carbon 14 atoms left. Four. How far back are we now? 275,080 years.

Go back 5730 more years, and there are 2 C-14 Atoms left. Another 5730 years, and there is 1 left. By 291,570 years back, there are no C-14 atoms left in the sample. Zero. Null.

Long before that point you passed any possibility of detection.

That is why I "keep saying" that radio-carbon dating cannot be used to date the dinosaurs.

There is NO Carbon 15 left from 65 million years ago. None. THEORETICALLY, in the whole world, there are a few atoms of it, maybe. To detect them would be like trying to find a aingle marked grain of sand randomly scattered on one of the world's beaches.

Did I need to go through all of that? Yes, I think I did. There is a pugnacious attitude around here about many things. Sometimes you have to brute force down to zero to demonstrate the point. I will now reiterate it explicitly:

ASSUMING that rates of radioactive decay are constant, and ASSUMING that the dinosaurs died out some 65 million years ago, it is categorically impossible to use C-14 to date dinosaur bones. 65 million year old Carbon 14 does not exist. At all. It has all decayed. Only theoretically is there some left. This is not provable, because it is impossible to design a machine that is so sensitive. In any case, Carbon-14 us COMPLETELY useless for dating dinosaurs. There is NO USE WHATSOEVER for C-14. It isn't simply "impracticable", it is impossible, full stop.

At 60 iterations, 343,800 years, the last C-14 atom in that 150 pound man's remains broke down. There is none left.

Coal is said to be ancient vegetation. Assuming that is true, there is a reason it is used as the inert background substrate for C-14 dating. There is no detectable Carbon-14 in it. This is not because our machines are not sensitive enough. It is because all of the C-14 has decayed. That's why it is completely useless for dating dinosaur bones.

And that's why I keep saying so: because it IS so. And also because the resistance here has been a little too fierce given the subject matter.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   11:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Vicomte13 (#39)

Did I need to go through all of that? Yes, I think I did.

Nope.

And that's why I keep saying so: because it IS so.

But it is not true, no matter how many keystrokes you expend.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-06-08   13:28:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Tooconservative (#40) (Edited)

But it is not true, no matter how many keystrokes you expend.

Yes, it is true. It is impossible to date anything a few million years old with Carbon-14, because there's no Carbon-14 left in it. It has all decayed away. It isn't there.

Back past 50,000 years; 75,000 years with herculean efforts at the edge of detectability, we do not have the equipment to detect it.

But no equipment in the world can detect Carbon-14 in a dinosaur, because the dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago, and there is no Carbon-14 left on earth from that long ago, it has entirely decayed.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   13:30:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Vicomte13 (#41)

...dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago...

The agenda-driven Fake Science Cult/Communitah based on wishful thinking has been manipulating sandbagging and striking evidence to the contrary. It is impossible for blood cells to survive "millions" of years, never mind several thousands.

THIS SHOULD have been front page news but wasn't:

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-08   13:51:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Liberator (#43)

It is impossible for blood cells to survive "millions" of years, never mind several thousands.

This is a really interesting point.

It is a serious tremor that cracks the solidity of a theory.

It's an aspect of the subject that creates its own logic tree.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   17:17:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Vicomte13 (#48)

It is a serious tremor that cracks the solidity of a theory.

It's an aspect of the subject that creates its own logic tree.

It does crack that theory...Maybe even smashes it to bits. A Game-Changer.

That "aspect of the subject" and "logic" lead straight to only one conclusion: The Great Flood was likely way it all went down in Genesis...and...occurred only several *thousands* of years ago.

It's noted that dinosaurs, historically referred to in several ancient civilization texts as "great lizards" and "dragons" (also depicted in ancient paintings in both the Old and New World) indeed existed *at the same time as man*.

This notion of course presents a dilemma for the high priests of science and its True Believers, shattering the Theory/Religion of Evolution at its foundation. It also forces the intellectually honest to re-calibrate and re-assess both "History" and Science" as taught in the past century and a half.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-08   18:39:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Liberator (#52)

It does crack that theory...Maybe even smashes it to bits. A Game-Changer.

That "aspect of the subject" and "logic" lead straight to only one conclusion: The Great Flood was likely way it all went down in Genesis...and...occurred only several *thousands* of years ago.

It's noted that dinosaurs, historically referred to in several ancient civilization texts as "great lizards" and "dragons" (also depicted in ancient paintings in both the Old and New World) indeed existed *at the same time as man*.

This notion of course presents a dilemma for the high priests of science and its True Believers, shattering the Theory/Religion of Evolution at its foundation. It also forces the intellectually honest to re-calibrate and re-assess both "History" and Science" as taught in the past century and a half.

It allows the possibility of those things, yes.

On the other hand, it also opens the possibility that not all of the dinosaurs went extinct after the great meteor strike of 65 million years ago, that pockets of them remained alive, and continued to populate parts of the earth afterwards. Certainly other animals alive at the time still exist, and there is no particular reason to believe that EVERY dinosaur EVERYWHERE died off as the result of the meteor strike. Crocodiles and Alligators survived, why not some dinosaurs, here and there?

Certainly some large mammals that survived the eons eventually perished as the conditions continued to change. Example: wooly mammoths and sabre- toothed tigers. They were not hunted to extinction by man. Hell, men today with planes, trucks and high-powered rifles haven't completely wiped out the elephants or the rhinos. Men with spears simply did not have the numbers or skill to wipe out a major elephant species.

The mammoths died out because of climate change. The identical thing could well be true of the dinosaurs.

Now, of course, this is heresy to those who have established that the dinosaurs "must" have ALL perished 65 million years ago. but there is no real imperative for that to be true. SOME may have lingered on here and there - turtles and crocks made it. There MIGHT still be something looking like armored fish of old deep down into the abysses of the sea.

If we've got blood cells and connective tissue from inside dinosaur bones - and we do - that doesn't perforce mean that there was no evolution, or a worldwide flood. It could just mean that the meteor didn't get ALL the dinosaurs, that some soldiered on - indeed, that some of the dragon stories of legend are real encounters between humans and dinosaurs.

Certainly the intact cells from within dinosaur bones would tend to indicate that.

Of course, then again, the inside of bones that were encased in mud don't have much oxygen, and without the oxygen they may not have decayed. Certainly we have feathers and scales and other things that otherwise decay contained in amber, because of the hypoxic nature thereof.

Who can say?

All of these things are possible. For my part, they don't engage my emotions, because I'm not a sola scripturalist, so the truth or mere poetic nature of Genesis 1 doesn't bear on my religious beliefs pretty much at all.

I would say that my basic ASSUMPTION is that God made the world, evolution is how he did it, and these dinosaur soft tissues we have means that all of the dinosaurs didn't die out 65 million years ago, that pockets of them survived, and that we have soft tissue because those particular dinosaurs died out more recently. This would fit the evidence as I see it. None of it has any bearing on what I think about God. It does mean that the Bible isn't a scientific text, but I never assumed it was.

In a similar vein, not being a Sola Scripturalist, I think the only really authoritative parts of the Bible - the LAW as it were - are Jesus' commandments - what to do and what not to do. And I think that obedience or departure from those is what destermines the status during stages of the afterlife. I do think that what happens in the afterlife was revealed, by Jesus, and that there are elements of what he said that are corroborated by Near Death Experiences.

Science and religion don't conflict in my mind. Of course Genesis 1 and Standard Theory conflict, but Genesis 1 is sacred poetry, not a science text.

That's how I look at it.

Your religious beliefs are differently configured, and anything that disturbs the absolute literal truth of any part of the Scriptures, as you read them, causes the whole thing to fall apart.

The Scriptures are not the basis for my knowledge of God. They add some detail about what God wants, mainly through Jesus.

Our religions are different. Yours does not bother me. I understand why you believe what you do. As long as you don't kill people I'm content to share the earth with you in peace, and we'll find out the details in the end, I reckon.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-08   18:58:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Vicomte13 (#53)

On the other hand, it also opens the possibility that not all of the dinosaurs went extinct after the great meteor strike of 65 million years ag

How were dinosaurs running around before Adam and Eve?

Was there death before sin?

Why do you believe the Earth is millions of years old?

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   7:59:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: A K A Stone, Vicomte13 (#57)

How were dinosaurs running around before Adam and Eve?

Was there death before sin?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Vic...

It seems Vic is on record here as considering Genesis as high-minded, perhaps even divinely-inspired "poetry" and not the Word of God.

Ergo that would mean God's Timeline as narrated in Genesis (as well as "sin" and "death" not being in-effect until after Adam and Eve's Fall) would not be taken literally.

For what it's worth, Jesus Himself pretty heavily quoted Genesis.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-09   11:57:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Liberator (#66)

It seems Vic is on record here as considering Genesis as high-minded, perhaps even divinely-inspired "poetry" and not the Word of God.

Poetry was my term, not Vic's, though he's free to agree with me, of course.

Ergo that would mean God's Timeline as narrated in Genesis (as well as "sin" and "death" not being in-effect until after Adam and Eve's Fall) would not be taken literally.

Though it's a claim that the Genesis timeline is "God's Timeline" as opposed to a timeline of man that is purported to be God's.

If I were to nitpick about death existing before sin, the human body experiences cell death as a normal function of healthy human living. Hair, for example is dead tissue. If no death existed before sin, would this mean that before the fall, Adam and Eve either had no hair, or if they did, it was living tissue?

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-06-09   12:56:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Pinguinite, A K A Stone, Liberator (#74)

To even have the discussion, we'd have to go through the definitions of God, life, spirit, sin, death and inspiration. That's just for starters.

And because what I think departs from various orthodoxies on each point, I get a lot of abuse when I write on religion. When I speak of my own direct experiences with God, I get ridicule and scorn, that continues on afterwards.

Essentially, I don't believe in the traditional Christian religion, or any other religion, and I don't believe in "Science", practiced as a modern religion either. The factual and logical errors of each are obvious to me, and they rule out belief. I have talked with God many times, and experienced major miracles, so I know that God is as a matter of empirical fact, such that I have to always include the reality of God in all scientific analysis or I cease to be a real scientist.

Unlike many, I do not denigrate the ancient texts, and I think they were inspired by God. But I don't think "inspired" means what traditionalists think it means.

Who really wants to know what I believe? Probably nobody, really. What you want is the opportunity to draw me into a discussion of religion, so you can hector me about the things you believe that I don't. What good is that?

Honestly, what is the point? There is nothing more useless in this world than another man's religion. Yours are useless to me, and my own is useless to you. So why argue about it? If you really want to know my religious beliefs, we can take it to another thread and discuss it there. I certainly don't care what you believe, in precisely the same way I don't care what sex turns you on. Your religion is of no interest or use to me. I'm pretty sure the same is true in the other direction. If I'm wrong and you really, truly want to know what I believe and why, then start a thread with that as the topic, and I will go there and tell you. I'm not holding my breath. Nobody cares. Why would they?

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-09   18:04:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Vicomte13 (#76)

Essentially, I don't believe in the traditional Christian religion

Ok. That is all I need to know. You don't claim to be a follower of Christ or a Christian as it is called.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   18:39:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: A K A Stone (#77)

You simply cannot get the truth straight. I follow Christ. I do not follow him in the way that you do. I do not believe in the same hierarchy of authorities that you do. I do not have the same religion you do. I follow Christ.

You follow Christ in a different way. And the way you do it looks to my eyes a lot like not following Christ at all.

Your way is just A way. It is not THE way. Even in traditional Christianity, your way is a fringe element.

The way I follow Christ is adequately respectful of a certain set of norms for me to not be thrown out of the Catholic Church. My actual beliefs about many things differ somewhat from Catholicism, but that doesn't matter to the rest of Catholics.

To follow Christ, in my estimation, means to carefully read exactly what he said, to figure out what he meant by it, and then to do what he said. That is what it means: it means to keep his commandments. It does NOT mean to elevate a book to the status of God. It does NOT mean to insist on some faith alone versus works doctrine. It does NOT mean asserting all sorts of thing about a Trinity that Christ never taught. It doesn't even mean WORSHIPPING Christ. It means doing what Jesus said. Full stop. That's "following Christ". Whatever else you want to add to it is your religion. Catholics add a lot. I smile at it, perhaps genuflect to it, but don't confuse it with following Christ.

The thing that strikes me most about your particular religion is that you DON'T follow Christ. You assert a bunch of things that are the opposite of Christ, but you very much worship that book of yours.

And you just can't bear to speak directly to what I say. You always have to add a lie to it, to assert some additional thing I did not say and don't believe. You are not able to directly address the things I say. You always erect a straw man alongside it and hit that. Which means that you write vexatious things, but you're not really talking to ME at all, you're attacking a dummy that you've set up and CALLED me, but that isn't actually what I said or believe.

To me, it's really quite dishonest of you to do this, but you love to call ME the liar. It's striking, really, how far off the path that Christ laid out that you are. That's your religion, and your religion does not to my eyes appear to be about following Christ. It's about setting up a dummy of Christ who is not very much like Christ, and then worshipping the dummy instead of listening to and following the man.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-09   20:10:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Vicomte13 (#78)

follow Christ, in my estimation, means to carefully read exactly what he said, to figure out what he meant by it, and then to do what he said. That is what it means: it means to keep his commandments. It does NOT mean to elevate a book to the status of God.

The first part of what you said is correct. However you are an idiot because the Bible says that the word of God was revealed to us in the Bible and that it is all from God and profitable for study and implementation. You're also delusional with the lizard bulshit talk everybody on the form thinks you're an idiot for it. Not one person buys that b******* probably not even your kids., Maybe you're mentally ill and actually believe that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-09   22:15:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: A K A Stone (#81)

You're also delusional with the lizard bulshit talk everybody on the form thinks you're an idiot for it. Not one person buys that b******* probably not even your kids.

The problem you have is that you are raging like a Pharisee at actual miracles.

I know God exists because he pulled me out of a lake, raised two dead animals in my presence, and talks to me sometimes. That's the basis for my religion: direct personal experience with God.

Your purple-faced rage and accusation regarding these things is the voice of a jealous man. You do all of the things your idolatry requires, but God doesn't talk to you. And here's a guy who does not have your religion, and God heals him, shows him miracles, and talks to him.

It is outrageous, to you. It makes perfect sense, of course: I'm listening to God, and you're listening to men. Why me? Apparently God loves me. Why not you? Because you have set up a religion of false hoops and idols, and God isn't going to reward you for it by jumping through hoops.

I have no doubt at all that "everybody" on this forum thinks I'm an idiot for talking about the miracles I have experienced. That's your problem, isn't it? Because those things I have said are true. Rage away. You sound like a Pharisee to me. I have told the truth. That's why I believe in God. It is no skin off my nose that you don't believe it or think I'm an idiot. I know I am incredibly blessed. I also why these things have never happened to you - God isn't like how you believe him to be. Why would he reward false faith like yours? He hasn't. He doesn't. He's not going to.

I was always prepared to take God as he is. You have set preconditions upon him. He rejects them, so you sit alone with your book and your fellow ranters. You laugh at me, but I have the greater prize, so your laughter sounds like the mosque to me.

Your religion is a proselytizing idolatry: you need people to agree to buy your bullshit. But my religion is a personal relationship with God, who has shown me his power. I am writing because of that power, that's why I am alive. I am not urging you to join my religion. I haven't offered one. I've told you to open the gospels and read Jesus, and do what he said. Him. Not him and Paul and Peter and pastor Bob. That means care for the poor. It also means not calling people idiots.

Your rage is misplaced.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   8:24:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Vicomte13 (#88)

Hey asshole you said god doesn't heal anyone. Then you say he heals you. Which is it you hypocrite asshole? You said the below deceiver. Why are you such a prick liar? Or are you just brain damaged and cannot see the hypocrisy and ollogic in your bizarre statement. You won't address this because your a litttle worm puss of a person.

Christ does not treat Chrsitans' diabetes or cancer. He let's them bear that cross, die, and come to him.

Similarly for starvation. Christ lets hundreds of millions of Christans starve to death. They bear their cross to the end and have their reward in the next life.

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

So you're right - I have absolutely no belief at all that Christ will reach down from heaven and protect Christians from any diseases, or marauding enemies, or starvation, or natural disaster - because he DOESN'T protect us from any of things, and never said he would. Our reward for staying true to him is found on the other side, in the afterlife, not HERE.

If you have diabetes here, praying to Christ will keep you faithful to him to the end and win you the afterlife, but you're still going to lose your foot in THIS life, because Christ isn't going to lift a finger to protect you from the natural law, or from the marauding of other men. You have to help yourself in this life - Christ holds out the promise of happiness in the afterlife if, in the process of helping yourself in this one you don't do great evil, and you remember him and try to do what he said. That's the deal.

That Christ substitutes for human government in this life is impiety. It is ignoring what he really said, and adding nonsense to it that he never said.

Christ will not govern your country. He won't save you from malaria, or hurricanes, or earthquakes, or Nazis. He will have compassion on you, and receive your soul when they kill you, but he won't stop them from killing you, he won't drive off your diseases if you drink contaminated water, and he won't make hurricane Irma spare your life. He might on a one-off basis, but Christians at large get no pass, at all, from natural law.

Christ's deal is not about here.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   9:04:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: A K A Stone (#98)

You have a terrible reading comprehension problem, and a terrible anger management problem.

You read your book to tell you to go out proselytizing. The litany above is a classic example of this in action. It's why your religion is dying, and why God doesn't talk to you.

The day will come that you die and have a life review. This will be part of it. You will be abashed, because at that moment you will realize that I was always telling you the truth.

I would tell you truly that you represent God very badly.

What could you learn from me? Primarily, care about the poor. Care about the weak. Not hate people for thinking differently from you, as long as they aren't oppressing and killing people.

Once upon a time, your approach to religion ruled the day. The Catholic Church tortured and executed "heretics" and "witches". A messenger of God, Joan of Arc, was tried and burnt alive by the Catholic Church.

The Lutherans burnt 50,000 witches. The Anglicans killed recusants and Catholics. The Presbyterians waged violent war on all who thought differently, and burnt 20,000 witches in a tiny little country. The Baptists upheld slavery, oppressed millions of blacks, and upheld racial segregation based on their read of the Bible.

What a bunch of evil lunacy! All of it.

I'll stick with the God who pulled me out of the lake and raised that mouse and that lizard from the dead, who flew the dove into my face to drive off the demon, and whose son embraced me. That's God.

Your presentation of that God is horrific. Who could possibly be persuaded to follow your religion, based on rage and taunt? People just like you. Which is why your church has acted that way over history. Which is why people like me won't follow it now, and have stripped away all of its political power, and fenced it off, far, far away from the levers of political or judicial power.

You do what you do. Part of that is rail at me. Your jealousy is palpable. Anyway, nothing to be done about it now. When you die, you will see. Then you'll finally get to know him. He's better than you make him out to be.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   12:11:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Vicomte13 (#99)

I'll stick with the God who pulled me out of the lake and raised that mouse and that lizard from the dead, who flew the dove into my face to drive off the demon, and whose son embraced me. That's God.

Christ does not treat Chrsitans' diabetes or cancer. He let's them bear that cross, die, and come to him.

Similarly for starvation. Christ lets hundreds of millions of Christans starve to death. They bear their cross to the end and have their reward in the next life.

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

Are you so stupid you cannot see that these comments cannot both be true? That is why you are an asshole. You lie and puff yourself up. You really are that stupid aren't you. God doesnt' heal. God healed me. God doesn't heal. God healed me. Get your head out of your arrogant ass ok asshole.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   16:22:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: A K A Stone (#105)

Are you so stupid you cannot see that these comments cannot both be true?

No.

In general, God does not seem to intervene, but sometimes he does.

I haven't speculated as to why that may be so. I merely observe that it is so.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   17:43:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Vicomte13 (#106)

Changing your story buddy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   18:08:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: A K A Stone (#107)

Changing your story buddy.

Nope. Simply stating the obvious truth.

Lots of people have illnesses and infirmities, and many cry out to God for succor. Many don't appear to get it. Perhaps they get it on the other side.

But some do. I did.

Both of those things are true. Most don't. But some do. That's not changing a story, it's two parallel stories, both of which are true, with opposite results.

God decides who lives when and who dies when, and of what, whom he saves from death in this life at one point (before killing him at some later point), and whom he sends into Paradise, whom he sends into Gehenna, who passes final judgment, when it comes, and who fails it.

He does not explain himself fully. He does as he pleases.

That's always been the story, and still is.

It is both no and yes, at the same time, depending on God's choices at any given moment in time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   18:20:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Vicomte13 (#108)

Christ never promised health and happiness in this life - in fact, he promised that those things won't be found here.

You're not telling the truth. You said the above also in that post of yours. And many other things to reinforce it.

Just admit what you said was incorrect. Or keep spinning and digging.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   21:13:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: A K A Stone (#109)

You're not telling the truth. You said the above also in that post of yours. And many other things to reinforce it.

Just admit what you said was incorrect. Or keep spinning and digging.

I have always been telling the truth about these things.

You either have a hard time with reading comprehension, or have a learning disability, or like to play at being a bad investigator or lawyer.

In any case, we're not really discussing anything here it at all. You're trying to play a jejeune game of "gotcha" by showing me my past words, which I read, and don't see a contradiction. You don't seem to be able to grasp complexity.

And so our conversation devolves, once again, into a said/didn't say back and forth, which is pointless.

I don't concede anything, because you're essentially dredging up me saying the same things, in slightly different words and from different vantage points, going back years and years. You say that I am contradicting myself and lying, but I read what I wrote, and I see a remarkable consistency over the course of years and years.

Do you know why that consistency is there? Because I'm writing from true memory. Liars have to be good at remembering things, and they fail, and they say different things at different times. But I don't do that. Sure, you can go back and find me going postal with anger and talking about napalming cities, or whatever - I don't pretend that I am a fine human being when I get filled with wrath.

But when the discussion turns to God, what God has done, what God does - when a calm discussion is being had - I refer back to the miracles I have experienced, because they are the foundational points of my entire life, the most important things that ever happened to me, to moments where everything changed forever. And my recollection of them is clear, so what I say is consistent with that.

Now, how I analyze what that means varies from time to time, depending on what is being discussed. The core meaning is that God is, God thinks, God controls nature. That's true. From those core facts, other things can be extrapolated by reason. I do that, and sometimes I change my mind about the implications of something. What does not change is the underlying fact set that drives what I say.

That is what you directly assault when you call me a liar, when you mock me for the lizard, when you say I bumped my head. No, I am not lying. The lizard was dead and God brought it back to life. I did not bump my head, I broke my neck and was paralyzed and drowning. The demon was there, the dove flew into my face. God grabbed my face and my arm and talked to me.

These are the core facts of my direct encounters with my creator. They are why I know God. When you attack me for those particular things, you are charging straight at facts, and you sound desperate, mean and crazy. You scream at me that I am a liar, when I am telling the truth.

Any investigator who pulled up the last 17 years of my writing about these things, from in different places, would find a remarkable consistency - the sort of consistency that liars cannot maintain. I don't have to remember the lies I've told to make them consistent, because I'm reporting actual memories. So if asked off the cuff by a stranger in the dark, the stories I would tell would be the same as if one pulled any of the e-mails from the past 17 years. Slap me on a lie detector test for verification, and you will find the machine loves me, and the recounting is consistent.

Now, my interpretations of what it all MEANS have varied, just as anybody's theology grows and changes with maturity. What does not change is the facts, because the facts are WHY I'm sure about what I believe.

You attack me for the facts, and that's about the worst thing you can do, because you sound like a crazy, belligerent drunk, raging with anger, and I hear you, know I have been telling the truth all along, and judge your religion based on your willingness to try to scream and bully the truth into silence. It doesn't work, because I'm not the fool here, and I know it. I also know that all I have to do is to calmly repeat what happened to me and what I have seen, and you will hit the ceiling like a puppet on a string.

Truth is, your religion COULD accomodate and englobe what happened to me, it DOES affirm basic things about Christianity. But you're so hellbent on attacking my "lies", that are actually true, that you reveal a fundamental insecurity at the heart of your faith. You have decided, through bad reasoning, that if what I am saying is true, that your religion would therefore be false, and because you don't believe that, "therefore" I must be lying. But I'm not.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   21:36:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Vicomte13 (#110)

You do said God doesn't heal in this life he does the opposite so that makes you a liar.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-10   21:43:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: A K A Stone (#111)

I said that God healed me. I also said, as a general principle, that God doesn't heal people in this life.

This does not make me a liar at all.

I observed the general case, one that you yourself attested to at ferocious length, how God doesn't heal diabetes, doesn't prevent Christians from starving, etc. That is indeed the general case.

But then I noted that God DID heal me of a fatal injury.

Those two things are both true. There is no lie here.

So, given those two things in juxtaposition, what one must say is that God almost never heals anybody, but that rarely, he does. Because that is the truth.

You and I can both look around and see that he doesn't do it, generally. That's why these things are called miracle. But when I look in the mirror, I see a living man who would be dead but for a direct divine intervention, a major healing miracle. So I cannot state as an absolute prospect that God NEVER EVER heals people. God doesn't heal people, hardly ever, except when he does. That's a fact.

There's no lie here. You throw the word "liar" around a lot. It's a pretty serious accusation, considering that lying is a mortal sin. Trouble is, you haven't "caught me in a lie" here. You're having trouble with reading comprehension. There is indeed a very dramatic tension between the two statements - and that's the point: a general rule, and a startling exception.

How can you possibly even begin to understand that Bible in which you place all of your trust if such a simple literary device as I used throws you.

Example: The Bible says that all Jerusalem went out to be baptized by John. But that is obviously not literally true. The Sanhedrin didn't. Pilate and the Romans didn't. The high priest didn't. The people who executed Jesus almost certainly didn't.

If it were me having written that Biblical passage with the "all" in it, you would be screaming at me that I am a liar, because "all" is not literally true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-10   22:05:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Vicomte13 (#113)

Example: The Bible says that all Jerusalem went out to be baptized by John.

Another lie liar. That is not what it says. Like the heretic Pope's who removed the second commandment for Catholic non thinkers you deceive leave out words in an attempt to change the meaning. None of your long wonder swill changes those FACTS.

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-06-11   6:37:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: A K A Stone (#116)

you are lying. Liar. ... liar ... liar ... Another lie liar.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-06-12   10:57:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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