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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 56189
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

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#190. To: nolu chan (#186)

The fact that they intended to become citizens acts as proof that they were aliens and not citizens.

Really? That's your argument? You're reaching. One state made one exception (which was conditional) and you then generalize that non-citizens could vote.

"the right to vote was not conferred by citizenship."

I don't think I said that. I did say that those who voted were citizens (or about to be). But each state defined who could vote and I can't believe they would allow non-citizens to take over.

Keep in mind -- Congress has the power to refuse to seat a Congressman and the power to de-certify the result of the electoral college’s vote in a Presidential election if they believe there was foul play by a state.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   10:23:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: nolu chan (#187)

Alien men could vote, while natural born citizen women could not.

ONE state made ONE exception that allowed male non-citizens to vote PROVIDED THAT they were on a path to citizenship.

States allow you to drive on temporary tags. Are you going to claim that means nobody needs license plates to drive around?

"natural born citizen women could not."

Correct. Neither could children citizens. Or non-land-owning citizens. Or those citizens who didn't live in the state for at least one year. Or those citizens who couldn't pass a literacy test or pay a poll tax. A lot of citizens couldn't vote.

I'll say it again -- in 1790 when the second amendment was ratified, only the rich white guys voted. Adult, white, male citizens who owned property. They were "the people" described in Article I, Section 2. There were exceptions, of course. But they were exceptions.

My point being, they were also "the people" protected by the second amendment. NOT everyone and not even every citizen.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   10:45:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: misterwhite (#190)

The fact that they intended to become citizens acts as proof that they were aliens and not citizens.

Really? That's your argument? You're reaching.

Cite an example of an alien, or anyone, who intends to become a citizen, who is thereby magically transformed into a citizen without going through the naturalization process.

I linked, cited, and quoted the Official Records of the War of the Rebellion (Civil War) to show the Governor of Wisconsin making an official inquiry to the Secretary of War stating, "About one-half of the able-bodied men between eighteen and forty-five years in this State are foreign born. They have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States. Have the right to vote under our State constitution if twenty-one years old. Have enjoyed and are enjoying all the privileges of citizens. Are they liable to be drafted?"

I don't think I said that. I did say that those who voted were citizens (or about to be).

I said it. Those who voted were aliens. They were not citizens. An expression of intent to become a citizen does not change one from an alien to a citizen. Give it up.

But each state defined who could vote and I can't believe they would allow non-citizens to take over.

BELIEVE. Read history, do not invent your own.

Various states allowed aliens to vote until a Federal law was passed making it unlawful for aliens to vote in Federal elections.

Wisconsin constitution, approved August 6, 1846.

Note that the state constitutions had to be approved by the Federal government.

Article III, Section I, 1st, gave White citizens the right to vote, and Article III, Section I, 2nd, gave White aliens, who have declared their intention to become citizens, the right to vote.

ARTICLE III.

SUFFRAGE.

SECTION I. Every male person, of the age of twenty-one years or upward, belonging to either of the following classes, who shall have resided in the State for one year next preceding any election, shall be deemed a qualified elector at such election:

1st. White citizens of the United States.*

2d. White persons of foreign birth who shall have declared their intention to become citizens conformably to the laws of the United States on the subject of naturalization.*

3d. Persons of Indian blood, who have once been declared by law of Congress to be citizens of the United States, any subsequent law of Congress to the contrary notwithstanding.

4th. Civilized persons of Indian descent, not members of any tribe: Provided, That the legislature may, at any time, extend by law the right of suffrage to persons not herein enumerated; but no such law shall be in force until the same shall have been submitted to a vote of the people at a general election, and approved by a majority of all the votes cast at such election.

SEC. 2. No person under guardianship, non compos mentis, or insane shall be qualified to vote at any election; nor shall any person convicted of treason or felony be qualified to vote at any election unless restored to civil rights.

SEC. 3. All votes shall be given by ballot, except for such township officers as may by law be directed or allowed to be otherwise chosen.

__________

* By a decision of the Supreme Court, made during the year 1866, in case of Gillespie vs. Palmer, the right of suffrage was decided to have been extended to colored persons by vote of tlie people at the general election held November 6, 1849.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

SEC. 4. No person shall be deemed to have lost his residence in this State by reason of his absence on business of the United States or of this State.

SEC. 5. No soldier, seaman, or marine in the Army or Navy of the United States shall be deemed a resident of this State in consequence of being stationed within the same.

SEC. 6. Laws may be passed excluding from the right of suffrage all persons who have been or may be convicted of bribery or larceny, or of any infamous crime, and depriving every person who shall make, or become, directly, or indirectly, interested in, any bet or wager depending upon the result of any election, from the right to vote at such election.

Various states allowed aliens to vote until a Federal law was passed making it unlawful for aliens to vote in Federal elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States

The issue of voting rights in the United States, specifically the enfranchisement and disenfranchisement of different groups, has been contested throughout United States history.

Eligibility to vote in the United States is established both through the federal constitution and by state law. Several constitutional amendments (the 15th, 19th, and 26th specifically) require that voting rights cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age for those above 21; the constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights during 1787–1870. In the absence of a specific federal law or constitutional provision, each state is given considerable discretion to establish qualifications for suffrage and candidacy within its own respective jurisdiction; in addition, states and lower level jurisdictions establish election systems, such as at-large or single member district elections for county councils or school boards.

Between 1776 and 1807, women voted in New Jersey.

The Constitution of New Jersey of 1776, at IV, stated,

That all inhabitants of this Colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote for Representatives in Council and Assembly; and also for all other public officers, that shall be elected by the people of the county at large.

The legislature of New Jersey amended this constitution September 20, 1777, by substituting the words "State" and "States" for "colony" and "colonies."

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   11:31:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: nolu chan (#192)

Cite an example of an alien, or anyone, who intends to become a citizen, who is thereby magically transformed into a citizen without going through the naturalization process.

I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that one state made an exception to allow a certain group of non-citizens to vote.

"An expression of intent to become a citizen does not change one from an alien to a citizen."

I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that one state made an exception to allow a certain group of non-citizens to vote.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   11:44:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: nolu chan (#188)

The members of the militia enjoyed an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the militia did not have a right to exist, and was disbanded.

If you choose not to own a gun, does that mean the second amendment no longer protects your right to own a gun? Of course not.

Same thing with the State Militias. Most disbanded because they were no longer needed. That doesn't mean the second amendment no longer protects that right. Almost half the states still have State Defense Forces in addition to the National Guard.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   11:53:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: nolu chan (#188)

And the individual right to keep and bear arms, protected by the Second Amendment, does not expire at age 45, a fact you seem utterly incapable of confronting.

The second amendment protect the arms of militia members, no matter their age.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   11:54:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: misterwhite (#190)

ONE state made ONE exception that allowed male non-citizens to vote PROVIDED THAT they were on a path to citizenship.

FALSE. Stop making shit up.

What is your evidence that is was ONLY ONE STATE?

The New Jersey constitution of 1776, as amended September 20, 1777, allowed "all inhabitants of this State, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote...."

In Wisconsin, the aliens were not on a path to citizenship. They had merely made a statement of intent.

In Massachusetts, the constitution of 1780, Article IX provided,

All elections ought to be free; and all the inhabitants of this commonwealth, having such qualifications as they shall establish by their frame of government, have an equal right to elect officers, and to be elected, for public employments.

Not amended until 1822.

States allow you to drive on temporary tags. Are you going to claim that means nobody needs license plates to drive around?

What the hell does that have to do with states providing aliens the right to vote and doing so in their constitution???

I'll say it again -- in 1790 when the second amendment was ratified, only the rich white guys voted. Adult, white, male citizens who owned property. They were "the people" described in Article I, Section 2. There were exceptions, of course. But they were exceptions.

You can say it again and again all you want. You can blow it out your ass.

I can quote state constitution after state constitution proving, as a matter of fact, that you are just blowing it out your ass.

Voting rights were solely dependent on State law. The Federal Constitution was silent on the question of who could vote. There was no Federal law on the matter. The States were free to choose as they please who was enfranchised within their State. Voting rights were determined by State law, not citizenship.

My point being, they were also "the people" protected by the second amendment. NOT everyone and not even every citizen.

Your point is bullshit, and as stated in McDonald, at war with the Supreme Court decision in Heller.

And there is Heller.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 580-81

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people."

We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   11:59:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: misterwhite (#193)

I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that one state made an exception to allow a certain group of non-citizens to vote.

It was not ONE. You just made that part up.

It was multiple states. They allowed ALIENS to vote.

As with Wisconsin, they wrote it into their constitution.

Not that it overly matters in proving your bullshit about voting and citizenship to be just bullshit.

If one state authorized aliens to vote in elections, and the Federal government approved that constitutional provision, it is proof that the right to vote did not connote citizenship.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   12:28:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: misterwhite (#194)

The members of the militia enjoyed an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the militia did not have a right to exist, and was disbanded.

If you choose not to own a gun, does that mean the second amendment no longer protects your right to own a gun? Of course not.

Same thing with the State Militias. Most disbanded because they were no longer needed. That doesn't mean the second amendment no longer protects that right. Almost half the states still have State Defense Forces in addition to the National Guard.

The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right that inheres to ALL AMERICANS. Heller, the law of the land.

Americans have the right to keep and bear arms before, during, and after any connection to any militia.

They do not obtain the right by belonging to a militia, and they do not lose it by leaving a militia.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 780:

Fifth, the 39th Congress’ response to proposals to disband and disarm the Southern militias is instructive. Despite recognizing and deploring the abuses of these militias, the 39th Congress balked at a proposal to disarm them. See 39th Cong. Globe 914; Halbrook, Freedmen 20–21. Disarmament, it was argued, would violate the members’ right to bear arms, and it was ultimately decided to disband the militias but not to disarm their members. See Act of Mar. 2, 1867, § 6, 14 Stat. 487; Halbrook, Freedmen 68–69; Cramer 858–861. It cannot be doubted that the right to bear arms was regarded as a substantive guarantee, not a prohibition that could be ignored so long as the States legislated in an evenhanded manner.

IV

Municipal respondents’ remaining arguments are at war with our central holding in Heller: that the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home. Municipal respondents, in effect, ask us to treat the right recognized in Heller as a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause. Municipal respondents’ main argument is nothing less than a plea to disregard 50 years of incorporation precedent and return (presumably for this case only) to a bygone era.

The members of the militia enjoyed an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the militia did not have a right to exist, and was disbanded.

Your plea to return to a bygone era and argue that the 2nd Amendment RKBA derives from the militia has been rejected by SCOTUS and deposited in the trash heap of history.

You can keep mumbling that shit all you want and it will remain at war with Heller, as stated in McDonald.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   12:29:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: misterwhite (#195)

The second amendment protect the arms of militia members, no matter their age.

The Second Amendment protects the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms OF ALL AMERICANS.

As the Second Amendment protects the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms OF ALL AMERICANS, it it would protect the right of militia members, if there were any, to keep and bear arms. It would equally protect te INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms of non-members of any militia.

Whether the individual is, or is not, a member of a militia is irrelevant to the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

Militia members, no matter what their age, are between 17 and 45 years old, mandated by Federal statute. The INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms does not end at 45 because it has nothing to do with being a member of a militia. By Federal law, membership in the militia ends at 45.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 580-81

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people."

We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   12:34:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: nolu chan (#196)

The New Jersey constitution of 1776, as amended September 20, 1777, allowed "all inhabitants of this State, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote...."

"... for Representatives in Council & Assembly." Nice try.

"What the hell does that have to do with states providing aliens the right to vote and doing so in their constitution???"

It's called an analogy. License plates are required, but states will make an exception and allow you to drive with temporary tags.

"Voting rights were solely dependent on State law. The Federal Constitution was silent on the question of who could vote. There was no Federal law on the matter. The States were free to choose as they please who was enfranchised within their State. Voting rights were determined by State law, not citizenship."

I agree with all that. But the bottom line was that those who voted were citizens (with very few exceptions).

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   12:35:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: nolu chan (#198)

Americans have the right to keep and bear arms before, during, and after any connection to any militia. They do not obtain the right by belonging to a militia, and they do not lose it by leaving a militia.

We're not discussing the right. We're discussing the protection of that right.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   12:39:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: nolu chan (#199)

Whether the individual is, or is not, a member of a militia is irrelevant to the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

It makes a HUGE difference as to the types of arms protected. If we accept that the second amendment only protects those arms that are commonly used by individuals for self-defense in the home, that's going to eliminate protections for a lot of weapons.

If the second amendment protects the arms used by a State Militia, however ...

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   12:49:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: nolu chan (#199)

"the people" … refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

Correct. And in 1790, "the people" were the white adult male citizens who owned property. And white adult male citizens were in the State Militia. And the RKBA of "the people" was protected by the second amendment. Because they were in the militia.

Now, over the years since then, the definition of "the people" has changed and expanded.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   12:58:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: nolu chan (#199)

The Second Amendment protects the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms OF ALL AMERICANS.

Some arms for some Americans. From now on, five justices on the U.S. Supreme Court will tell you which arms for what Americans using God-knows-what for their standard. Probably popular opinion.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-05   9:06:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: misterwhite (#200)

States allow you to drive on temporary tags. Are you going to claim that means nobody needs license plates to drive around?

What the hell does that have to do with states providing aliens the right to vote and doing so in their constitution???

It's called an analogy. License plates are required, but states will make an exception and allow you to drive with temporary tags.

If license plates were a requirement of the state constitution, as with the voting requirements I have quoted, the legislature could not carve out any exception. It would require a constitutional amendment. If you know of any such constitutional amendment for an exception to the voting requirements in the state constitutions that I have quoted, cite and quote please. Until then, your analogy is pure garbage.

The New Jersey constitution of 1776, as amended September 20, 1777, allowed "all inhabitants of this State, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote...."

"... for Representatives in Council & Assembly." Nice try.

It was written 1776/1777. All inhabitants of th[e] State were allowed to vote until the law was changed. This provision was not changed until 1822. It was the NJ state constitution from 1789 to 1822 under the U.S. Constitution. Nice try yourself. It is a matter of public record that women were allowed to lawfully vote in New Jersey for its first few decades as a state.

Back in the early Federal elections, the only ones for whom there was a popular vote were the members of the House of Representatives. Neither Senators nor members of the electoral college were chosen by popular vote.

I can show where I get my information. You are merely showing your ass, which is where you are getting your information.

This time, let's try New Hampshire. The list just keeps growing longer, like your nose.

Constitution of New Hampshire 1784, Article XI:

All elections ought to be free, and every inhabitant of the state having the proper qualifications, has equal right to elect, and be elected to office.

Constitution of New Hampshire 1792, Article 11:

All elections ought to be free, and every inhabitant of the state having the proper qualifications, has equal right to elect, and be elected to office.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-05   12:49:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: misterwhite (#201)

We're not discussing the right. We're discussing the protection of that right.

The Second Amendment protects that individual right. The right is not protected by membership in the unorganized militia, or the organized militia.

You are discussing the right, and you are discussnig the protection of that INDIVIDUAL right, in terms rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Write them a letter saying you want to return to a bygone era.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-05   12:50:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: misterwhite (#202)

Whether the individual is, or is not, a member of a militia is irrelevant to the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

It makes a HUGE difference as to the types of arms protected.

The second Amendment offers an individual right to keep and bear arms. The right is the same in or out of the militia. As no RKBA right is gained by being in the militia, no RKBA right is lost when the individual turns 45 years old and leaves the militia. His individual right is unaffected by passing the maximum age for the miltia.

There is no huge difference as to the types of arms protected it the individual leaves the militia. There is no difference at all.

Gramps has the same RKBA rights at 46 as he had at 45.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-05   12:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: misterwhite (#203)

Correct. And in 1790, "the people" were the white adult male citizens who owned property. And white adult male citizens were in the State Militia. And the RKBA of "the people" was protected by the second amendment. Because they were in the militia.

Still bullshit, no matter how many times you pass this turd. You are at war with Heller ["at war with our central holding in Heller: that the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home." McDonald at 561 U.S. 780] and SCOTUS rejects your plea to return to a bygone era.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 580-81

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people."

We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 780:

Fifth, the 39th Congress’ response to proposals to disband and disarm the Southern militias is instructive. Despite recognizing and deploring the abuses of these militias, the 39th Congress balked at a proposal to disarm them. See 39th Cong. Globe 914; Halbrook, Freedmen 20–21. Disarmament, it was argued, would violate the members’ right to bear arms, and it was ultimately decided to disband the militias but not to disarm their members. See Act of Mar. 2, 1867, § 6, 14 Stat. 487; Halbrook, Freedmen 68–69; Cramer 858–861. It cannot be doubted that the right to bear arms was regarded as a substantive guarantee, not a prohibition that could be ignored so long as the States legislated in an evenhanded manner.

IV

Municipal respondents’ remaining arguments are at war with our central holding in Heller: that the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home. Municipal respondents, in effect, ask us to treat the right recognized in Heller as a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause. Municipal respondents’ main argument is nothing less than a plea to disregard 50 years of incorporation precedent and return (presumably for this case only) to a bygone era.

The members of the militia enjoyed an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the militia did not have a right to exist, and was disbanded.

You are living in a bygone era, citing nonsense.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-05   12:51:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: misterwhite (#204)

The Second Amendment protects the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms OF ALL AMERICANS.

Some arms for some Americans. From now on, five justices on the U.S. Supreme Court will tell you which arms for what Americans using God-knows-what for their standard. Probably popular opinion.

The U.S. Supreme Court holdings in Heller and McDonald are the law of the land. That you disagree with the U.S. Supreme Court holdings, and are throwing a tantrum, is duly noted. Of course, it changes nothing. You may write a sternly worded letter to the U.S. Supreme Court and make your displeasure known.

Since 1790, the U.S. Supreme Court has been expounding the laws. Article 3, "The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under the Constitution...." The Constitution empowers the U.S. Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter of what the Constitution says. The decide by majority vote. Except for the number of justices on the court varying from 5 to 10, it has not changed since 1790.

You are at war with Heller ["at war with our central holding in Heller: that the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home." McDonald at 561 U.S. 780] and SCOTUS rejects your plea to return to a bygone era.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 580-81

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people."

We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 780:

Fifth, the 39th Congress’ response to proposals to disband and disarm the Southern militias is instructive. Despite recognizing and deploring the abuses of these militias, the 39th Congress balked at a proposal to disarm them. See 39th Cong. Globe 914; Halbrook, Freedmen 20–21. Disarmament, it was argued, would violate the members’ right to bear arms, and it was ultimately decided to disband the militias but not to disarm their members. See Act of Mar. 2, 1867, § 6, 14 Stat. 487; Halbrook, Freedmen 68–69; Cramer 858–861. It cannot be doubted that the right to bear arms was regarded as a substantive guarantee, not a prohibition that could be ignored so long as the States legislated in an evenhanded manner.

IV

Municipal respondents’ remaining arguments are at war with our central holding in Heller: that the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home. Municipal respondents, in effect, ask us to treat the right recognized in Heller as a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause. Municipal respondents’ main argument is nothing less than a plea to disregard 50 years of incorporation precedent and return (presumably for this case only) to a bygone era.

The members of the militia enjoyed an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the militia did not have a right to exist, and was disbanded.

You are living in a bygone era, citing nonsense.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-05   12:52:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: nolu chan (#209)

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset.

That's what I've been saying. And in 1790, that "political community" excluded women, children, non-landowners, non-citizens, slaves. The point being, in 1790, "the people" referred to an elite subset of the population -- the rich, white, land-owning, enfranchised, adult males. Not everyone.

The right of "the people" to keep and bear arms referred to them. Not everyone.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-05   13:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: nolu chan (#207)

There is no huge difference as to the types of arms protected it the individual leaves the militia. There is no difference at all.

So "in common use at the time" means nothing?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-05   13:13:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: misterwhite (#210)

And in 1790, that "political community" excluded women, children, non-landowners, non-citizens, slaves. The point being, in 1790, "the people" referred to an elite subset of the population -- the rich, white, land-owning, enfranchised, adult males. Not everyone.

The right of "the people" to keep and bear arms referred to them. Not everyone.

Still bullshit, no matter how many times your mind squeezes out this turd of thought.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 580-81

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people."

We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-06   16:19:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: misterwhite (#211)

There is no huge difference as to the types of arms protected it the individual leaves the militia. There is no difference at all.

So "in common use at the time" means nothing?

It means nothing at all regarding the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms, and membership or non-membership in the militia.

Gramps at 46, ineligible to be a member of the militia, has the same, precise right to the same precise weapons as he had at 45 when he was a member of the militia.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-06   16:20:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: nolu chan (#212)

“the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community

Correct. We agree. And in 1790, who were "the people"? For one, we know they were enfranchised because Article I, Section 2 said "the people" could vote.

So, in 1790, who could vote?. We need to know that because the second amendment protects the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms. I guess another way to say it is the second amendment protected the right of "the voters" to keep and bear arms, right?

Think about that then ask yourself, who was in the militia? Aren't they basically the same individuals?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-06   17:11:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: nolu chan (#213)

Gramps at 46, ineligible to be a member of the militia, has the same, precise right to the same precise weapons as he had at 45 when he was a member of the militia.

That's not what the Heller court said. Mr. Heller can't have a military weapon. What made you think he did?

Prior to Heller you could make that case.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-06   17:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: nolu chan (#213) (Edited)

So "in common use at the time" means nothing?

It means nothing at all regarding the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms, and membership or non-membership in the militia.

According to the Heller court:

"Held. 2. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."

Meaning if a weapon is not "in common use" it may be banned. Say goodbye to "assault-style" weapons. Maybe not with this court, but certainly with some future liberal court.

All because YOU wanted the second amendment to protect an individual right.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   9:45:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: misterwhite (#214)

For one, we know they were enfranchised because Article I, Section 2 said "the people" could vote.

Only according to your creative imagining of your illusory but unquoted provision of Article I, Section 2.

As has been repeatedly noted, and confirmed by SCOTUS, the Constitution did not give anyone the right to vote for anyone.

Enfranchisement was solely a function of state government.

Think about that then ask yourself, who was in the militia?

I do not have to think about it and come up with some creative imagining. It is a matter of statute law.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   16:30:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: misterwhite (#215)

Gramps at 46, ineligible to be a member of the militia, has the same, precise right to the same precise weapons as he had at 45 when he was a member of the militia.

That's not what the Heller court said.

Identify a weapon that a member of the militia has a right to possess under the Second Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms, that he does not have the right, at age 46, to possess under the Second Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms.

You will have to read Heller for the first time before lecturing about what is in it.

Mr. Heller can't have a military weapon. What made you think he did?

My comment you quote made no reference to Mr. Heller or what weapon he had, or might have had.

You confuse the military and the militia. The members of the military get to bear all nature of arms. It has nothing to do with their 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms.

When did you stop beating your dog?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   16:32:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: misterwhite (#216)

According to the Heller court:

"Held. 2. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."

Your quote is not from the Opinion of the Court in Heller but from the Syllabus which is not part of the Opinion of the Court.

For the statement in context from the actual Opinion at 554 U.S. 627-28:

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16 Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

The Miller holding has nothing to do with a 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms depending on some imaginary connection to being a member of the militia.

What type of weapons are included in the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with WHO has the right to keep and bear arms under the 2nd Amendment.

Meaning if a weapon is not "in common use" it may be banned. Say goodbye to "assault-style" weapons. Maybe not with this court, but certainly with some future liberal court.

All because YOU wanted the second amendment to protect an individual right.

Whether I want the 2nd Amendment to protect an individual right is irrelevant to whether it does or not. The U.S. Supreme Court clearly and definitively answered the question of whether the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right. It does. You do not like that. I don't care if you like that not.

The right has never encompassed anything other than weapons, lawful to possess.

Heller at 582:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

Heller at 626:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).

Heller at 627-28:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Review your bullshit at your #2:

You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

As I said at the time, this is what happens when trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You destroy the square peg.

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens. It protects state militias and the arms of state militia members from federal infringement. What are those arms? They are the arms selected by the state militia as necessary for the protection of the state. Round peg. Round hole.

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.

The militia cited in the 2nd Amendment is the UNORGANIZED MILITIA. It is that mass of able-bodied persons between 17 and 45 years old, going about the business of their private lives.

The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right and has not one damned thing to do with whether someone is part of any ORGANIZED militia.

Nobody is a membeer of the ORGANIZED MILITIA. The ORGANIZED MILITIA does not exist today. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms does. The 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms exists independently of whether an ORGANIZED MILITIA exists, or not. It is a right of the individual, recognized but not conferred by the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms belongs to individuals

  • before they are age eligible for the UNORGANIZED MILITIA,
  • while they are age eligible for the UNORGANIZED MILITIA, and
  • after they are no longer age eligible for the UNORGANIZED MILITIA.

Your misconception of the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is noted.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   16:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#219)

what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.--- misterwrong

Obviously, some of our State constitutions are NOT protecting the 2nd.

Yet misterwrong keeps repeating this mantra, like an idiot.

Will this thread ever end? --- Or will it go round a few more times, with both reiterating the same tired songs?

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-07   18:04:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: nolu chan (#218)

Identify a weapon that a member of the militia has a right to possess under the Second Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms, that he does not have the right, at age 46, to possess under the Second Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms.

A brand-new machine gun, for starters. Or a brand-new full-auto battle rifle. You know, like the ones federalized troops will have when they come-a-knockin'?

You gonna use your court-approved self-defense handgun to keep them at bay?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   18:30:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: nolu chan (#219)

But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty

Wrong, wrong, wrong. They weapons they possessed at home were expensive rifles -- used for hunting and self-defense.

The militia used smooth- bore muskets -- cheap, quick to load, and suitable for volley fire. Not accurate, but deadly when fired in a volley.

Read the Militia Act. It requires a musket not a rifle. The court is simply making shit up.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   18:38:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: nolu chan (#219)

The Miller holding has nothing to do with a 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms depending on some imaginary connection to being a member of the militia.

Then why did the Miller court ask if the shotgun was suitable for use in a militia? Why even bring it up?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   18:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: nolu chan (#219) (Edited)

The militia cited in the 2nd Amendment is the UNORGANIZED MILITIA.

When the second amendment was written, there was only ONE militia. The arms protected by the second amendment were the arms used by that ONE militia.

All other arms for all other individuals were protected by state constitutions.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   18:45:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: misterwhite (#221)

Identify a weapon that a member of the militia has a right to possess under the Second Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms, that he does not have the right, at age 46, to possess under the Second Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms.

A brand-new machine gun, for starters. Or a brand-new full-auto battle rifle. You know, like the ones federalized troops will have when they come-a-knockin'?

You gonna use your court-approved self-defense handgun to keep them at bay?

Federalized troops are NOT the militia cited in the 2nd Amendment. The are the ORGANIZED militia, as opposed to the UNORGANIZED militia.

Heller at 624.

We may as well consider at this point (for we will have to consider eventually) what types of weapons Miller permits. Read in isolation, Miller’s phrase “part of ordinary military equipment” could mean that only those weapons useful in warfare are protected. That would be a startling reading of the opinion, since it would mean that the National Firearms Act’s restrictions on machineguns (not challenged in Miller) might be unconstitutional, machineguns being useful in warfare in 1939. We think that Miller’s “ordinary military equipment” language must be read in tandem with what comes after: “[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. The traditional militia was formed from a pool of men bringing arms “in common use at the time” for lawful purposes like self-defense. “In the colonial and revolutionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)). Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns. That accords with the historical understanding of the scope of the right, see Part III, infra.

Under what imaginary theory of imaginary law does a member of the militia have a 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear a brand new machine gun?

Who may lawfully manufacture a brand new machine gun?

Who sells brand new machine guns?

18 USC § 921 et seq.

(23) The term "machinegun" has the meaning given such term in section 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(b)).

26 U.S.C. § 5845(b)

(b) Machinegun

The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

National Firearms Act Handbook (ATF)

1.1.3 Firearm Owners’ Protection Act. In 1986, this Act amended the NFA definition of “silencer” by adding combinations of parts for silencers and any part intended for use in the assembly or fabrication of a silencer.6 The Act also amended the GCA to prohibit the transfer or possession of machineguns.7 Exceptions were made for transfers of machineguns to, or possession of machineguns by, government agencies, and those lawfully possessed before the effective date of the prohibition, May 19, 1986.

6 Firearm Owners’ Protection Act, Public Law 99-308, approved May 19, 1986.
7 18 U.S.C. 922(o)

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-44/sec.-922/

18 U.S.C. § 922(o)

(o)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.

(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to—

(A) a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.

The above text was the result of Public Law 99-308 of May 19, 1986, 100 Stat. 453, under section 102(9). The effective date was May 19, 1986.

EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1986 AMENDMENT

Amendment by section 102(1)–(8) of Pub. L. 99–308 effective 180 days after May 19, 1986, and amendment by section 102(9) of Pub. L. 99–308 effective May 19, 1986, see section 110(a), (c) of Pub. L. 99–308, set out as a note under section 921 of this title.

Other than the "transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof," the only possible lawful transfer or possession of a machinegun is, "any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect," i.e., May 19, 1986.

Note that the militia is not the military, and the UNORGANIZED militia of the 2nd Amendment are just ordinary people going about their business in civilian life.

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-10/subtitle-a/part-i/chapter-13/section-311/

THE MILITIA - 10 U.S.C. § 311 (2012)

§311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

As the only lawful possession of a machinegun pertains to a machinegun that was possessed before May 19, 1986, please explain your ridiculous claim that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms provides a member of the militia the right to possess a brand new machinegun.

As "the traditional militia was formed from a pool of men bringing arms “in common use at the time” for lawful purposes like self-defense," whatever makes you think that a machinegun is in common use for lawful purposes like self-defense?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   19:51:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: misterwhite (#222)

The court is simply making shit up.

That's the best you have?

You have repeatly been proven to have pulled your non-facts straight out of your ass.

As you stated at #2:

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens. It protects state militias and the arms of state militia members from federal infringement.

In the case where there was no state constitution, what protected the right to keep and bear arms?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   21:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: misterwhite (#223)

The Miller holding has nothing to do with a 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms depending on some imaginary connection to being a member of the militia.

Then why did the Miller court ask if the shotgun was suitable for use in a militia? Why even bring it up?

As Millier was not in a militia, why did that alone not settle the issue?

Heller at 554 U.S. 623:

Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons.

It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment.

The right only extends to certain types of weapons. What type of weapons the right extends to does not mean the right depends on membership in the militia. As the Court observed, "[i]t is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said."

Heller at 554 U.S. 621:

Justice Stevens places overwhelming reliance upon this Court’s decision in Miller, 307 U. S. 174. “[H]undreds of judges,” we are told, “have relied on the view of the Amendment we endorsed there,” post, at 638, and “[e]ven if the textual and historical arguments on both sides of the issue were evenly balanced, respect for the well-settled views of all of our predecessors on this Court, and for the rule of law itself . . . would prevent most jurists from endorsing such a dramatic upheaval in the law,” post, at 639. And what is, according to Justice Stevens, the holding of Miller that demands such obeisance? That the Second Amendment “protects the right to keep and bear arms for certain military purposes, but that it does not curtail the Legislature’s power to regulate the nonmilitary use and ownership of weapons.” Post, at 637.

Nothing so clearly demonstrates the weakness of Justice Stevens’ case. Miller did not hold that and cannot possibly be read to have held that. The judgment in the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court’s basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were “bear[ing] arms” not “for . . . military purposes” but for “nonmilitary use,” post, at 637. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.” 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added). “Certainly,” the Court continued, “it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.” Ibid. Beyond that, the opinion provided no explanation of the content of the right.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   21:17:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: misterwhite (#224)

The militia cited in the 2nd Amendment is the UNORGANIZED MILITIA.

When the second amendment was written, there was only ONE militia. The arms protected by the second amendment were the arms used by that ONE militia.

The United States militia. The militia has two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia. The militia cited in the 2nd Amendment was the unorganized militia.

10 U.S.C. 311

§311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Heller at 554 U.S. 595-596

2. Prefatory Clause.

The prefatory clause reads: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State ....”

a. “Well-Regulated Militia.” In United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, 179 (1939), we explained that “the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.” That definition comports with founding-era sources. See, e. g., Webster (“The militia of a country are the able bodied men organized into companies, regiments and brigades...and required by law to attend military exercises on certain days only, but at other times left to pursue their usual occupations”); The Federalist No. 46, pp. 329, 334 (B. Wright ed. 1961) (J. Madison) (“near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands”); Letter to Destutt de Tracy (Jan. 26, 1811), in The Portable Thomas Jefferson 520, 524 (M. Peterson ed. 1975) (“the militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms”).

Petitioners take a seemingly narrower view of the militia, stating that “[m]ilitias are the state-and congressionally regulated military forces described in the Militia Clauses (art. I, § 8, cls. 15–16).” Brief for Petitioners 12. Although we agree with petitioners’ interpretive assumption that “militia” means the same thing in Article I and the Second Amendment, we believe that petitioners identify the wrong thing, namely, the organized militia. Unlike armies and navies, which Congress is given the power to create (“to raise . . . Armies”; “to provide . . . a Navy,” Art. I, §8, cls. 12–13), the militia is assumed by Article I already to be in existence. Congress is given the power to “provide for calling forth the Militia,” § 8, cl. 15; and the power not to create, but to “organiz[e]” it—and not to organize “a” militia, which is what one would expect if the militia were to be a federal creation, but to organize “the” militia, connoting a body already in existence, ibid., cl. 16. This is fully consistent with the ordinary definition of the militia as all able-bodied men. From that pool, Congress has plenary power to organize the units that will make up an effective fighting force. That is what Congress did in the first Militia Act, which specified that “each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective states, resident therein, who is or shall be of the age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia.” Act of May 8, 1792, 1 Stat. 271. To be sure, Congress need not conscript every able-bodied man into the militia, because nothing in Article I suggests that in exercising its power to organize, discipline, and arm the militia, Congress must focus upon the entire body. Although the militia consists of all able-bodied men, the federally organized militia may consist of a subset of them.

The Court firmly rejected the wrongheaded notion that the 2nd amendment referred to the organized militia, a subset of the unorganized militia. As with the petitioners in Heller, you adopt the notion that the 2nd Amendment refers to the unorganized militia. Having previously shown the wrongheadedness of your position, you now seek to make believe that you do not know that there is an organized and an unorganized militia being the two classes of the United States militia.

The unorganized militia consists of all those enrolled in the United States militia who are not serving in the military under arms.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   21:17:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: misterwhite (#224)

All other arms for all other individuals were protected by state constitutions.

What if a state did not have a constitution for 50 years or so?

How did THAT work?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   21:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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