[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

"International court’s attack on Israel a sign of the free world’s moral collapse"

"Pete Hegseth Is Right for the DOD"

"Why Our Constitution Secures Liberty, Not Democracy"

Woodworking and Construction Hacks

"CNN: Reporters Were Crying and Hugging in the Hallways After Learning of Matt Gaetz's AG Nomination"

"NEW: Democrat Officials Move to Steal the Senate Race in Pennsylvania, Admit to Breaking the Law"

"Pete Hegseth Is a Disruptive Choice for Secretary of Defense. That’s a Good Thing"

Katie Britt will vote with the McConnell machine

Battle for Senate leader heats up — Hit pieces coming from Thune and Cornyn.

After Trump’s Victory, There Can Be No Unity Without A Reckoning

Vivek Ramaswamy, Dark-horse Secretary of State Candidate

Megyn Kelly has a message for Democrats. Wait for the ending.

Trump to choose Tom Homan as his “Border Czar”

"Trump Shows Demography Isn’t Destiny"

"Democrats Get a Wake-Up Call about How Unpopular Their Agenda Really Is"

Live Election Map with ticker shows every winner.

Megyn Kelly Joins Trump at His Final PA Rally of 2024 and Explains Why She's Supporting Him

South Carolina Lawmaker at Trump Rally Highlights Story of 3-Year-Old Maddie Hines, Killed by Illegal Alien

GOP Demands Biden, Harris Launch Probe into Twice-Deported Illegal Alien Accused of Killing Grayson Davis

Previously-Deported Illegal Charged With Killing Arkansas Children’s Hospital Nurse in Horror DUI Crash

New Data on Migrant Crime Rates Raises Eyebrows, Alarms

Thousands of 'potentially fraudulent voter registration applications' Uncovered, Stopped in Pennsylvania

Michigan Will Count Ballot of Chinese National Charged with Voting Illegally

"It Did Occur" - Kentucky County Clerk Confirms Voting Booth 'Glitch'' Shifted Trump Votes To Kamala

Legendary Astronaut Buzz Aldrin 'wholeheartedly' Endorses Donald Trump

Liberal Icon Naomi Wolf Endorses Trump: 'He's Being More Inclusive'

(Washed Up Has Been) Singer Joni Mitchell Screams 'F*** Trump' at Hollywood Bowl

"Analysis: The Final State of the Presidential Race"

He’ll, You Pieces of Garbage

The Future of Warfare -- No more martyrdom!

"Kamala’s Inane Talking Points"

"The Harris Campaign Is Testament to the Toxicity of Woke Politics"

Easy Drywall Patch

Israel Preparing NEW Iran Strike? Iran Vows “Unimaginable” Response | Watchman Newscast

In Logansport, Indiana, Kids are Being Pushed Out of Schools After Migrants Swelled County’s Population by 30%: "Everybody else is falling behind"

Exclusive — Bernie Moreno: We Spend $110,000 Per Illegal Migrant Per Year, More than Twice What ‘the Average American Makes’

Florida County: 41 of 45 People Arrested for Looting after Hurricanes Helene and Milton are Noncitizens

Presidential race: Is a Split Ticket the only Answer?

hurricanes and heat waves are Worse

'Backbone of Iran's missile industry' destroyed by IAF strikes on Islamic Republic

Joe Rogan Experience #2219 - Donald Trump

IDF raids Hezbollah Radwan Forces underground bases, discovers massive cache of weapons

Gallant: ‘After we strike in Iran,’ the world will understand all of our training

The Atlantic Hit Piece On Trump Is A Psy-Op To Justify Post-Election Violence If Harris Loses

Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

Judge Aileen Cannon, who tossed Trump's classified docs case, on list of proposed candidates for attorney general

Iran's Assassination Program in Europe: Europe Goes Back to Sleep

Susan Olsen says Brady Bunch revival was cancelled because she’s MAGA.

Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report

Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence.


Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 56197
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Comments (1-87) not displayed.
      .
      .
      .

#88. To: misterwhite (#81)

You cite that as precedent for what?

That the type of weapon protected by the second amendment was relevent to its usefulness to a militia.

- - - - - - - - - -

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

Presser

In the absence of evidence, the court could not say whether the a short barrel shotgun was a weapon in any part of the ordinary military equipment.

What a precedent. In the absence of evidence, the court could not say.

The District of Columbia argues that the prefatory clause declares the Amendment’s only purpose—to shield the state militias from federal encroachment—and that the operative clause, even when read in isolation, speaks solely to military affairs and guarantees a civic, rather than an individual, right. In other words, according to the District, the operative clause is not just limited by the prefatory clause, but instead both clauses share an explicitly civic character. The District claims that the Second Amendment “protects private possession of weapons only in connection with performance of civic duties as part of a well-regulated citizens militia organized for the security of a free state.” Individuals may be able to enforce the Second Amendment right, but only if the law in question “will impair their participation in common defense and law enforcement when called to serve in the militia.” But because the District reads “a well regulated Militia” to signify only the organized militias of the founding era—institutions that the District implicitly argues are no longer in existence today—invocation of the Second Amendment right is conditioned upon service in a defunct institution. Tellingly, we think, the District did not suggest what sort of law, if any, would violate the Second Amendment today—in fact, at oral argument, appellees’ counsel asserted that it would be constitutional for the District to ban all firearms outright. In short, we take the District’s position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter.

[...]

We are told by the District that the Second Amendment was written in response to fears that the new federal government would disarm the state militias by preventing men from bearing arms while in actual militia service, or by preventing them from keeping arms at home in preparation for such service. Thus the Amendment should be understood to check federal power to regulate firearms only when federal legislation was directed at the abolition of state militias, because the Amendment’s exclusive concern was the preservation of those entities. At first blush, it seems passing strange that the able lawyers and statesmen in the First Congress (including James Madison) would have expressed a sole concern for state militias with the language of the Second Amendment. Surely there was a more direct locution, such as “Congress shall make no law disarming the state militias” or “States have a right to a well-regulated militia.”

[...]

Both the collective and sophisticated collective theories assert that the Second Amendment was written for the exclusive purpose of preserving state militias, and both theories deny that individuals qua individuals can avail themselves of the Second Amendment today. The latter point is true either because, as the District appears to argue, the “Militia” is no longer in existence, or, as others argue, because the militia’s modern analogue, the National Guard, is fully equipped by the federal government, creating no need for individual ownership of firearms. It appears to us that for all its nuance, the sophisticated collective right model amounts to the old collective right theory giving a tip of the hat to the problematic (because ostensibly individual) text of the Second Amendment.

[...]

In determining whether the Second Amendment’s guarantee is an individual one, or some sort of collective right, the most important word is the one the drafters chose to describe the holders of the right—“the people.” That term is found in the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. It has never been doubted that these provisions were designed to protect the interests of individuals against government intrusion, interference, or usurpation. We also note that the Tenth Amendment—“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people”—indicates that the authors of the Bill of Rights were perfectly capable of distinguishing between “the people,” on the one hand, and “the states,” on the other. The natural reading of “the right of the people” in the Second Amendment would accord with usage elsewhere in the Bill of Rights.

The District’s argument, on the other hand, asks us to read “the people” to mean some subset of individuals such as “the organized militia” or “the people who are engaged in militia service,” or perhaps not any individuals at all—e.g., “the states.” See Emerson, 270 F.3d at 227. These strained interpretations of “the people” simply cannot be squared with the uniform construction of our other Bill of Rights provisions. Indeed, the Supreme Court has recently endorsed a uniform reading of “the people” across the Bill of Rights.

[...]

In sum, the phrase “the right of the people,” when read intratextually and in light of Supreme Court precedent, leads us to conclude that the right in question is individual.

Parker v District of Columbia, 478 F3d 372 (DC Cir 2007), Affirmed U.S. Supreme Court, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-18   20:06:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: nolu chan (#84)

The RKBA is an individual right. Deal with it. Heller and McDonald.

That's how those courts ruled. I disagree.

"The RKBA is not a restriction on the federal government to leave the state militias (and their weapons) alone. What sort of right would that be?"

That would be the right of a state to form and maintain a well-regulated militia consisting of armed citizens.

"There are no more State militias. There is the National Guard."

21 states have State Defense Forces in addition to the National Guard. If the other 29 wish to have them, the second amendment protects their right to organize them.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-18   20:10:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: nolu chan (#88)

What a precedent. In the absence of evidence, the court could not say.

Just the fact that the court connected the weapon to a state militia speaks volumes as to the meaning of the second amendment.

"The District’s argument, on the other hand, asks us to read “the people” to mean some subset of individuals"

They were. They were citizens with full rights -- to own property, run for office, vote, bear arms in the militia. For example, Article I, Section 2 says "the people" vote for House members. Not "the citizens" vote for House members.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-18   20:21:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: nolu chan (#88)

In short, we take the District’s position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter.

Well, does the Distict of Columbia have a militia? If not, then the second amendment doesn't apply. I wouldn't call it a dead letter.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-18   20:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#82)

misterwhite] And before the Bill of Rights was selectively incorporated, states banned speech, restricted the press, searched without a warrant, and even had their own state-sanctioned religion. "That is what you blather you want to return to?" [misterwhite] You bet!

So you admit you want to return to when the state constitutionally "banned speech, restricted the press, searched without a warrant, and even had their own state-sanctioned religion."

If you just repeal the Bill of Rights, or make it inapplicable to the States, you can have what you want.

nolu chan

Good work Chan.. --- You've finally got misterwrong to admit what I've been telling this forum since we all got here.. This guy is an anti-constitutional troll..

As robertpausen, we argued these same points over 15 years ago, on FR, until we were both banned by JR for 'disruption '.

tpaine  posted on  2018-05-18   22:51:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: misterwhite (#90) (Edited)

Removed by poster. Will repost.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-18   23:16:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: misterwhite (#91)

Well, does the Distict of Columbia have a militia? If not, then the second amendment doesn't apply.

The District of Columbia is not a state. It is a Federal district. There was no need for incorporation for the 2nd amendment to apply to the District of Columbia.

The District indicated the 2nd Amendment was a dead letter. The court disagreed and found the District to be in violation of the 2nd Amendment.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-18   23:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: misterwhite (#90)

Just the fact that the court connected the weapon to a state militia speaks volumes as to the meaning of the second amendment.

Yes. You should write SCOTUS a sternly worded letter about it.

The meaning of the 2nd Amendment is not the definition of the right to keep and bear arms.

Here is what a unanimous Supreme Court said in 2016 about such blather.

Caetano v. Massachusetts, 14-10078, 577 US ____ (2016) per curiam

This is a UNANIMOUS opinion in which the author is not identified.

Cite as: 577 U. S._(2016)

1

Per Curiam

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

JAIME CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ON PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT OF MASSACHUSETTS

No. 14-10078. Decided March 21, 2016

PER CURIAM.

The Court has held that "the Second Amendment ex­tends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding," District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570, 582 (2008), and that this "Second Amend­ment right is fully applicable to the States," McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U. S. 742, 750 (2010). In this case, the Su­preme Judicial Court of Massachusetts upheld a Massa­chusetts law prohibiting the possession of stun guns after examining "whether a stun gun is the type of weapon contemplated by Congress in 1789 as being protected by the Second Amendment." 470 Mass. 774, 777, 26 N. E. 3d 688, 691 (2015).

The court offered three explanations to support its holding that the Second Amendment does not extend to stun guns. First, the court explained that stun guns are not protected because they "were not in common use at the time of the Second Amendment's enactment." Id., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. This is inconsistent with Heller's clear statement that the Second Amendment "extends . . . to . . . arms . . . that were not in existence at the time of the founding." 554 U. S., at 582.

The court next asked whether stun guns are "dangerous per se at common law and unusual," 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 694, in an attempt to apply one "important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms," Heller, 554 U. S., at 627; see ibid. (referring to "the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of 'dangerous and

2

CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

Per Curiam

unusual weapons' "). In so doing, the court concluded that stun guns are "unusual" because they are "a thoroughly modern invention." 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693-694. By equating "unusual" with "in common use at the time of the Second Amendment's enactment," the court's second explanation is the same as the first; it is inconsistent with Heller for the same reason.

Finally, the court used "a contemporary lens" and found "nothing in the record to suggest that [stun guns] are readily adaptable to use in the military." 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 694. But Heller rejected the proposi­tion "that only those weapons useful in warfare are pro­tected." 554 U. S., at 624-625.

For these three reasons, the explanation the Massachu­setts court offered for upholding the law contradicts this Court's precedent. Consequently, the petition for a writ of certiorari and the motion for leave to proceed in forma pauperis are granted. The judgment of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts is vacated, and the case is remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.

It is so ordered.

- - - - - - - - - -

And here is the concurring opinion which accompanied the per curiam opinion.

Cite as: 577 U. S. __ (2016)

1

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

JAIME CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ON PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT OF MASSACHUSETTS

No. 14-10078. Decided March 21, 2016

Justice Alito, with whom Justice Thomas joins, concurring in the judgment. After a "bad altercation" with an abusive boyfriend put her in the hospital, Jaime Caetano found herself homeless and "in fear for [her] life." Tr. 31, 38 (July 10, 2013). She obtained multiple restraining orders against her abuser, but they proved futile. So when a friend offered her a stun gun "for self-defense against [her] former boy friend," 470 Mass. 774, 776, 26 N. E. 3d 688, 690 (2015), Caetano accepted the weapon.

It is a good thing she did. One night after leaving work, Caetano found her ex-boyfriend "waiting for [her] outside." Tr. 35. He "started screaming" that she was "not gonna [expletive deleted] work at this place" any more because she "should be home with the kids" they had together. Ibid. Caetano's abuser towered over her by nearly a foot and outweighed her by close to 100 pounds. But she didn't need physical strength to protect herself. She stood her ground, displayed the stun gun, and announced: "I'm not gonna take this anymore. . . . I don't wanna have to [use the stun gun on] you, but if you don't leave me alone, I'm gonna have to." Id., at 35-36. The gambit worked. The ex-boyfriend "got scared and he left [her] alone." Id., at 36.

It is settled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms that applies against both the Federal Government and the States. District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570 (2008); McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U. S. 742 (2010). That right

2

CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

vindicates the "basic right" of "individual self-defense." Id., at 767; see Heller, supra, at 599, 628. Caetano's en­counter with her violent ex-boyfriend illustrates the con­nection between those fundamental rights: By arming herself, Caetano was able to protect against a physical threat that restraining orders had proved useless to pre­vent. And, commendably, she did so by using a weapon that posed little, if any, danger of permanently harming either herself or the father of her children.

Under Massachusetts law, however, Caetano's mere possession of the stun gun that may have saved her life made her a criminal. See Mass. Gen. Laws, ch. 140, §131J (2014). When police later discovered the weapon, she was arrested, tried, and convicted. The Massachusetts Su­preme Judicial Court affirmed the conviction, holding that a stun gun "is not the type of weapon that is eligible for Second Amendment protection" because it was "not in common use at the time of [the Second Amendment's] enactment." 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. This reasoning defies our decision in Heller, which rejected as "bordering on the frivolous" the argument "that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are pro­tected by the Second Amendment." 554 U. S., at 582. The decision below also does a grave disservice to vulnerable individuals like Caetano who must defend themselves because the State will not.

The events leading to Caetano's prosecution occurred sometime after the confrontation between her and her ex-boyfriend. In September 2011, police officers responded to a reported shoplifting at an Ashland, Massachusetts, supermarket. The store's manager had detained a sus­pect, but he identified Caetano and another person in the parking lot as potential accomplices. Police approached the two and obtained Caetano's consent to search her

I

Cite as: 577 U. S._(2016)

3

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

purse. They found no evidence of shoplifting, but saw Caetano's stun gun. Caetano explained to the officers that she had acquired the weapon to defend herself against a violent ex-boyfriend.

The officers believed Caetano, but they arrested her for violating Mass. Gen. Laws, ch. 140, §131J, "which bans entirely the possession of an electrical weapon," 470 Mass., at 775, 26 N. E. 3d, at 689.1 When Caetano moved to dismiss the charge on Second Amendment grounds, the trial court denied the motion.

A subsequent bench trial established the following undisputed facts. The parties stipulated that Caetano possessed the stun gun and that the weapon fell within the statute's prohibition.2 The Commonwealth also did not challenge Caetano's testimony that she possessed the weapon to defend herself against the violent ex-boyfriend. Indeed, the prosecutor urged the court "to believe the defendant." Tr. 40. The trial court nonetheless found

__________

1 Specifically, the statute prohibits the possession of any "portable device or weapon from which an electrical current, impulse, wave or beam may be directed, which current, impulse, wave or beam is de­signed to incapacitate temporarily, injure or kill." Mass. Gen. Laws, ch. 140, §131J (2014). The statute includes exceptions for law-enforcement officers and weapon suppliers, who may possess electrical weapons "designed to incapacitate temporarily." Ibid. Violations are punishable by a fine of $500 to $1,000, imprisonment of 6 months to 2% years, or both. Ibid.

2 Stun guns like Caetano's "are designed to stun a person with an electrical current" by running a current between two metal prongs on the device and placing the prongs in direct contact with the person. 470 Mass. 774, 775, n. 2, 26 N. E. 3d 688, 689, n. 2 (2015). A similar device, popularly known by the brand name "Taser," shoots out wires tipped with electrodes that can deliver an electrical current from a distance. Tr. 25-26. Tasers can also be used like a stun gun without deploying the electrodes—a so-called "dry stun." Id., at 26. As the Common­wealth's witness testified at trial, these sorts of electrical weapons are "non-lethal force" "designed to incapacitate"—"not kill"—a target. Id., at 27.

4

CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

Caetano guilty, and she appealed to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. The Supreme Judicial Court rejected Caetano's Second Amendment claim, holding that "a stun gun is not the type of weapon that is eligible for Second Amendment protec­tion." 470 Mass., at 775, 26 N. E. 3d, at 689. The court reasoned that stun guns are unprotected because they were "not 'in common use at the time' of enactment of the Second Amendment," id., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693 (quot­ing Heller, supra, at 627), and because they fall within the "traditional prohibition against carrying dangerous and unusual weapons," 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692 (citing Heller, supra, at 627).

II

Although the Supreme Judicial Court professed to apply Heller, each step of its analysis defied Heller's reasoning.

A

The state court repeatedly framed the question before it as whether a particular weapon was " 'in common use at the time' of enactment of the Second Amendment." 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693; see also id., at 779, 780, 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692, 693, 694. In Heller, we emphati­cally rejected such a formulation. We found the argument "that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment" not merely wrong, but "bordering on the frivolous." 554 U. S., at 582. In­stead, we held that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding." Ibid. (emphasis added).3 It is hard to

__________

3 Stun guns are plainly "bearable arms." As Heller explained, the term includes any "[w]eapo[n] of offence" or "thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands," that is "carr[ied] . . . for the purpose of offensive or defensive action." 554 U. S., at 581, 584 (inter-

Cite as: 577 U. S._(2016)

5

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

imagine language speaking more directly to the point. Yet the Supreme Judicial Court did not so much as mention it.

Instead, the court seized on language, originating in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939), that "'the sorts of weapons protected were those "in common use at the time."'" 470 Mass., at 778, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692 (quot­ing Heller, supra, at 627, in turn quoting Miller, supra, at 179). That quotation does not mean, as the court below thought, that only weapons popular in 1789 are covered by the Second Amendment. It simply reflects the reality that the founding-era militia consisted of citizens "who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty," Heller, 554 U. S., at 627, and that the Second Amendment accordingly guarantees the right to carry weapons "typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes," id., at 625. While stun guns were not in existence at the end of the 18th century, the same is true for the weapons most commonly used today for self-defense, namely, revolvers and semiautomatic pistols. Revolvers were virtually unknown until well into the 19th century,4 and semiautomatic pistols were not invented until near the end of that century.5 Electronic stun guns are no more exempt from the Second Amend­ment's protections, simply because they were unknown to the First Congress, than electronic communications are exempt from the First Amendment, or electronic imaging devices are exempt from the Fourth Amendment. Id., at 582 (citing Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521

__________

nal quotation marks omitted).

4 See J. Bilby, A Revolution in Arms: A History of the First Repeating Rifles 23 (2006). Samuel Colt did not patent his famous revolver until 1836. Ibid.

5 See Firearms: An Illustrated History 166 (2014); see also W. Greener, The Gun and Its Development 524-529, 531-534 (9th ed. 1910) (dis­cussing revolvers and self-loading semiautomatic pistols as "modern pistols").

6

CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35-36 (2001)). As Heller aptly put it: "We do not inter­pret constitutional rights that way." 554 U. S., at 582.

B

The Supreme Judicial Court's holding that stun guns may be banned as "dangerous and unusual weapons" fares no better. As the per curiam opinion recognizes, this is a conjunctive test: A weapon may not be banned unless it is both dangerous and unusual. Because the Court rejects the lower court's conclusion that stun guns are "unusual," it does not need to consider the lower court's conclusion that they are also "dangerous." See ante, at 1-2. But make no mistake—the decision below gravely erred on both grounds.

1

As to "dangerous," the court below held that a weapon is "dangerous per se" if it is " 'designed and constructed to produce death or great bodily harm' and 'for the purpose of bodily assault or defense.'" 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692 (quoting Commonwealth v. Appleby, 380 Mass. 296, 303, 402 N. E. 2d 1051, 1056 (1980)). That test may be appropriate for applying statutes criminalizing assault with a dangerous weapon. See ibid., 402 N. E. 2d, at 1056. But it cannot be used to identify arms that fall outside the Second Amendment. First, the relative dangerousness of a weapon is irrelevant when the weapon belongs to a class of arms commonly used for lawful purposes. See Heller, supra, at 627 (contrasting "'dangerous and unusual weap­ons' " that may be banned with protected "weapons . . . 'in common use at the time' "). Second, even in cases where dangerousness might be relevant, the Supreme Judicial Court's test sweeps far too broadly. Heller defined the "Arms" covered by the Second Amendment to include " 'any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his

Cite as: 577 U. S._(2016)

7

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.'" 554 U. S., at 581. Under the decision below, however, virtually every covered arm would qualify as "dangerous."

Were there any doubt on this point, one need only look at the court's first example of "dangerous per se" weapons: "firearms." 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692. If Heller tells us anything, it is that firearms cannot be categorically prohibited just because they are dangerous. 554 U. S., at 636. A fortiori, stun guns that the Common­wealth's own witness described as "non-lethal force," Tr. 27, cannot be banned on that basis.

2

The Supreme Judicial Court's conclusion that stun guns are "unusual" rested largely on its premise that one must ask whether a weapon was commonly used in 1789. See 470 Mass., at 780-781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693-694. As al­ready discussed, that is simply wrong. See supra, at 4-6.

The court also opined that a weapon's unusualness depends on whether "it is a weapon of warfare to be used by the militia." 470 Mass., at 780, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. It asserted that we followed such an approach in Miller and "approved its use in Heller." 470 Mass., at 780, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. But Heller actually said that it would be a "startling reading" of Miller to conclude that "only those weapons useful in warfare are protected." 554 U. S., at 624. Instead, Miller and Heller recognized that militia members traditionally reported for duty carrying "the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home," and that the Second Amendment therefore protects such weapons as a class, regardless of any particular weapon's suitability for military use. 554 U. S., at 627; see id., at 624-625. Indeed, Heller acknowledged that advancements in military technology might render many commonly owned weapons ineffective in warfare. Id., at 627-628. But such "modern developments . . . cannot change our

8

CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

interpretation of the right." Ibid.

In any event, the Supreme Judicial Court's assumption that stun guns are unsuited for militia or military use is untenable. Section 131J allows law enforcement and correctional officers to carry stun guns and Tasers, pre­sumably for such purposes as nonlethal crowd control. Subduing members of a mob is little different from "sup­pressing] Insurrections," a traditional role of the militia. U. S. Const., Art. I, §8, cl. 15; see also ibid. (militia may be called forth "to execute the Laws of the Union"). Addition­ally, several branches of the U. S. armed services equip troops with electrical stun weapons to "incapacitate a target without permanent injury or known side effects." U. S. Army, Project Manager Close Combat Systems, PD Combat Munitions: Launched Electrode Stun Device (LESD),

http://www.pica.army.mil/pmccs/combatmunitions/nonlethalsys/taserx26e.html

(all Internet materials as last visited Mar. 18, 2016); see U. S. Marine Corps Admin­istrative Message 560/08 (Oct. 2, 2008) (Marine Corps guidance for use of Tasers),

http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/MessagesDisplay/tabid/13286/Article/1130 24/marine-corps-training-and-use-of-human-electro-muscular-incapacitation-hemi-dev.aspx;

Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate, Non-Lethal Weapons (NLW) Reference Book 3 (2012) (Department of Defense report stating that "[m]ultiple Services employ" Tasers),

http://dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a565971.pdf.

C

As the foregoing makes clear, the pertinent Second Amendment inquiry is whether stun guns are commonly possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes today. The Supreme Judicial Court offered only a cursory discussion of that question, noting that the "'number of Tasers and stun guns is dwarfed by the number of fire­arms.'" 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. This ob-

Cite as: 577 U. S._(2016)

9

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

servation may be true, but it is beside the point. Other­wise, a State would be free to ban all weapons except handguns, because "handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home." Heller, supra,at 629.

The more relevant statistic is that "[h]undreds of thou­sands of Tasers and stun guns have been sold to private citizens," who it appears may lawfully possess them in 45 States. People v. Yanna, 297 Mich. App. 137, 144, 824 N. W. 2d 241, 245 (2012) (holding Michigan stun gun ban unconstitutional); see Volokh, Nonlethal Self-Defense, (Almost Entirely) Nonlethal Weapons, and the Rights To Keep and Bear Arms and Defend Life, 62 Stan. L. Rev. 199, 244 (2009) (citing stun gun bans in seven States); Wis. Stat. §941.295 (Supp. 2015) (amended Wisconsin law permitting stun gun possession); see also Brief in Opposi­tion 11 (acknowledging that "approximately 200,000 civil­ians owned stun guns" as of 2009). While less popular than handguns, stun guns are widely owned and accepted as a legitimate means of self-defense across the country. Massachusetts' categorical ban of such weapons therefore violates the Second Amendment.

III

The lower court's ill treatment of Heller cannot stand. The reasoning of the Massachusetts court poses a grave threat to the fundamental right of self-defense. The Su­preme Judicial Court suggested that Caetano could have simply gotten a firearm to defend herself. 470 Mass., at 783, 26 N. E. 3d, at 695. But the right to bear other weap­ons is "no answer" to a ban on the possession of protected arms. Heller, 554 U. S., at 629. Moreover, a weapon is an effective means of self-defense only if one is prepared to use it, and it is presumptuous to tell Caetano she should have been ready to shoot the father of her two young children if she wanted to protect herself. Courts should

10

CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS

ALITO, J., concurring in judgment

not be in the business of demanding that citizens use more force for self-defense than they are comfortable wielding.6

Countless people may have reservations about using deadly force, whether for moral, religious, or emotional reasons—or simply out of fear of killing the wrong person. See Brief for Arming Women Against Rape & Endanger-ment as Amicus Curiae 4-5. "Self-defense," however, "is a basic right." McDonald, 561 U. S., at 767. I am not pre­pared to say that a State may force an individual to choose between exercising that right and following her con­science, at least where both can be accommodated by a weapon already in widespread use across the Nation.

* * *

A State's most basic responsibility is to keep its people safe. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts was either unable or unwilling to do what was necessary to protect Jaime Caetano, so she was forced to protect herself. To make matters worse, the Commonwealth chose to deploy its prosecutorial resources to prosecute and convict her of a criminal offense for arming herself with a nonlethal weapon that may well have saved her life. The Supreme Judicial Court then affirmed her conviction on the flimsi­est of grounds. This Court's grudging per curiam now sends the case back to that same court. And the conse­quences for Caetano may prove more tragic still, as her conviction likely bars her from ever bearing arms for self-defense. See Pet. for Cert. 14.

If the fundamental right of self-defense does not protect Caetano, then the safety of all Americans is left to the mercy of state authorities who may be more concerned about disarming the people than about keeping them safe.

__________

6 The court below also noted that Massachusetts no longer requires a license to possess mace or pepper spray. 470 Mass., at 783, 26 N. E. 3d, at 695. But the law was changed in 2014, after Caetano was convicted. A spray can also be foiled by a stiff breeze, while a stun gun cannot.

In July 2016, Massachusetts dropped the charges.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-19   0:28:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: misterwhite (#89)

"There are no more State militias. There is the National Guard."

21 states have State Defense Forces in addition to the National Guard. If the other 29 wish to have them, the second amendment protects their right to organize them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_defense_force

State defense forces (SDF; also known as state military, state guards, or state military reserves) in the United States are military units that operate under the sole authority of a state government. State defense forces are authorized by state and federal law and are under the command of the governor of each state.

State defense forces are distinct from their state's National Guard in that they cannot become federal entities. All state National Guard personnel (to include the National Guard of the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the territories of Guam and the Virgin Islands) can be federalized under the National Defense Act Amendments of 1933 with the creation of the National Guard of the United States. This provides the basis for integrating units and personnel of the Army National Guard into the U.S. Army and, since 1947, units and personnel of the Air National Guard into the U.S. Air Force.

The federal government recognizes state defense forces, as per the Compact Clause of the U.S. Constitution, under 32 U.S.C. § 109 which provides that state defense forces as a whole may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces of the United States, thus preserving their separation from the National Guard. However, under the same law, individual members serving in the state defense force are not exempt from service in the armed forces (i.e., they are not excluded from the draft). Under 32 USC § 109(e), "A person may not become a member of a defense force ... if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces."

The defense forces are created pursuant to 32 U.S.C. 109. They are subject to being drafted into the U.S. armed forces.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-32/chapter-1/sec.-109/

2016 US Code
Title 32 - National Guard
Chapter 1 - Organization
Sec. 109 - Maintenance of other troops

(a) In time of peace, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States.

(e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:

Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia. (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)

Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.

The state defense forces do not meet the definition of the organized or unorganized militia.

You may stop making believe that they are the militia, resurrected.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-19   1:09:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: misterwhite (#89)

"The RKBA is not a restriction on the federal government to leave the state militias (and their weapons) alone. What sort of right would that be?"

That would be the right of a state to form and maintain a well-regulated militia consisting of armed citizens.

Perhaps you missed it, but over a century ago the state militias were changed by Federal law into the National Guard.

Where did you find the constitutional right of a State to form and maintain a militia?

The Constitution says Congress shall have the power,

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

- - - - - - - - - -

"There are no more State militias. There is the National Guard."

21 states have State Defense Forces in addition to the National Guard. If the other 29 wish to have them, the second amendment protects their right to organize them.

The militia, resurrected, they ain't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_defense_force

State defense forces (SDF; also known as state military, state guards, or state military reserves) in the United States are military units that operate under the sole authority of a state government. State defense forces are authorized by state and federal law and are under the command of the governor of each state.

State defense forces are distinct from their state's National Guard in that they cannot become federal entities. All state National Guard personnel (to include the National Guard of the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the territories of Guam and the Virgin Islands) can be federalized under the National Defense Act Amendments of 1933 with the creation of the National Guard of the United States. This provides the basis for integrating units and personnel of the Army National Guard into the U.S. Army and, since 1947, units and personnel of the Air National Guard into the U.S. Air Force.

The federal government recognizes state defense forces, as per the Compact Clause of the U.S. Constitution, under 32 U.S.C. § 109 which provides that state defense forces as a whole may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces of the United States, thus preserving their separation from the National Guard. However, under the same law, individual members serving in the state defense force are not exempt from service in the armed forces (i.e., they are not excluded from the draft). Under 32 USC § 109(e), "A person may not become a member of a defense force ... if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces."

[...]

Other problems cited by the Inspector General's office were a lack of standardization in training and physical fitness, raising questions as to the ability of SDFs to work alongside their National Guard counterparts, and a lack of coordination with and support from the Department of Defense. During a survey conducted by the Inspector General of SDF commanders and adjutant generals, 18 of 19 considered their SDFs to be part of the organized militia and subject to the Code of Military Justice, 14 of 18 considered the members of SDFs to be "soldiers", 14 of 18 considered SDF personnel to be "lawful belligerents" under the rules of war, and only 4 of 19 authorized their personnel to conduct firearms training. Almost all of the missions reported to the IG's office were non-military in nature, including small-scale search and rescue, disaster management, and other unarmed, homeland security related-tasks.

[...]

Some state defense forces have minimal enlistment requirements, permitting virtually any citizen under a prescribed age (usually 66) to join, even if they have no previous military experience, or don't meet conventional military physical standards (California, for instance, requires no physical fitness test prior to entry and has weight/height standards significantly more relaxed than the U.S. military).

Many state defense forces allow enlistment "at will" and personnel are under no termed service obligation, unlike most conventional military forces, meaning they can simply quit at any time without facing charges of desertion or Absence Without Leave.

Training standards vary widely, but usually require 15 days of annual drill, compared to the absolute minimum of 38 days (if not more) required of most federal military reserve forces. Unlike the U.S. military, there is generally only a limited period of basic training, often as few as four days for persons with no prior military experience, significantly less than the ten weeks of basic training required, for instance, by the United States Army.

[...]

Weapons qualification and training is provided in some SDFs. However, most SDFs do not require weapons proficiency. A 2006 report by the U.S. Freedom Foundation, an organization affiliated with the State Guard Association of the United States, recommended minimum standards for state defense forces, including weapons training, but the report has been largely ignored. Some SDFs have laws that in the event of deployment by order of the state legislature and/or governor, they will become armed.

The defense forces are created pursuant to 32 U.S.C. 109. They are subject to being drafted into the U.S. armed forces.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-32/chapter-1/sec.-109/

2016 US Code
Title 32 - National Guard
Chapter 1 - Organization
Sec. 109 - Maintenance of other troops

(a) In time of peace, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States.

(e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:

Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia. (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)

Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.

The state defense forces do not meet the definition of the organized or unorganized militia.

You may stop making believe that they are the militia, resurrected.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-19   1:46:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: misterwhite (#90)

"The District’s argument, on the other hand, asks us to read “the people” to mean some subset of individuals"

They were. They were citizens with full rights -- to own property, run for office, vote, bear arms in the militia. For example, Article I, Section 2 says "the people" vote for House members. Not "the citizens" vote for House members.

When used in a constitutional sense, the citizens and the people are one and the same. This reduces your statement to gibberish.

People ... In a more restricted sense, and as generally used in constitutional law, the entire body of those citizens of a state or nation who are invested with the political power for political purposes.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-19   1:48:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: misterwhite (#87)

Look at how well that worked in Illinois. Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 863 (1983).

If that's what the citizens of Morton Grove wanted, who the fuck are you to tell them how to live? Who died and made you King?

You died of self-inflicted wounds.

You openly advocate for municipalities having the power to take away your claimed gun rights, and your guns. Talk about a surrender monkey.

Hey hey, ho ho,
Whitey's rights have got to go!

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-19   1:54:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: nolu chan (#99)

"You openly advocate for municipalities having the power to take away your claimed gun rights, and your guns."

Only if the state constitution allows it and the people want it. Are you saying that people don't have the right to self-governance because you, nolu chan, disagree with the decisions they're making?

Is your way the better way?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   8:59:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: nolu chan (#94)

The District of Columbia is not a state. It is a Federal district. There was no need for incorporation for the 2nd amendment to apply to the District of Columbia.

Which is the main problem with the Heller decision. Had, say, Ohio banned handguns in the home for self-defense, the ruling would have been different because the court would have referred to Ohio's state constitution.

So the Heller court felt compelled to twist and distort the second amendment to make it applicable to DC residents. Which it is not.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   9:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: nolu chan (#95)

The Massachusetts case came after the Heller decision, so you can expect weird, convoluted second amendment rulings from here on out.

The Massachusetts Supreme Court was correct -- the second amendment does not protect stun guns or sawed-off shotguns or zip guns or any other weapon not suitable for a miliria. That's not to say citizens can't have them if their state constitution protects them. Just that they're not protected by the second amendment.

Now, this case proves the point I've been making since Heller was decided. Five justices on the The U.S. Supreme Court now get to define the word "arms" in the second amendment for everyone.

Not the people. Not the city. Not the state. Five unelected, appointed-for-life Federal judges.

You bring up the Massachusetts ruling like it's a good thing because the U.S. Supreme Court forced Massachusetts to allow stun guns. The citizens of Massachusetts don't want civilians to have stun guns. Tough shit, citizens.

BUT what happens when some future, liberal U.S. Supreme Court defines arms as not including "assault rifles" -- the very weapons needed for protection from an out-of-control government? Still a good idea when the ruling goes against you?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   9:40:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: nolu chan (#96)

The state defense forces do not meet the definition of the organized or unorganized militia.

If State Defense Forces don't meet the definition of a modern day state militia, then I don't know what does. Next you'll be telling me that an AR-15 doesn't meet the definition of "arms" because it's not a muzzle-loader.

(I will not be surprised when the U.S. Supreme Court defines it that way.)

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   9:55:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: nolu chan (#97)

"Where did you find the constitutional right of a State to form and maintain a militia?"

I would think you would know, being an expert in common law. The authority comes from posse comitatus and pre-dates the U.S. Constitution.

The second amendment says the Federal Government can't infringe on this common law.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   10:08:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: nolu chan (#98)

When used in a constitutional sense, the citizens and the people are one and the same.

Not when the U.S. Constitution was written. And if we're looking for the meaning of the second amendment, that's what you go on.

"People ... In a more restricted sense, and as generally used in constitutional law, the entire body of those citizens of a state or nation who are invested with the political power for political purposes."

First of all, the term is "the people", not "people", not "persons", not "individuals, not "citizens". Each one had a different meaning in the U.S. Constitution.

Second, were your "people" -- the the the entire body of those citizens -- allowed to vote? Children weren't. Women weren't. Non-property owners weren't. Could those groups run for office? (No.)

So how can you possibly include them with those "who are invested with the political power for political purposes"?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   10:22:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: misterwhite, surrender monkey... (#100)

nolu chan ------ "You openly advocate for municipalities having the power to take away your claimed gun rights, and your guns. Talk about a surrender monkey".

Misterwrong ------ Only if the state constitution allows it and the people want it. Are you saying that people don't have the right to self-governance because you, nolu chan, disagree with the decisions they're making?

State constitutions or State/local 'laws' cannot infringe on 2nd amendment rights, -- (see the Supremacy Clause),....

tpaine  posted on  2018-05-19   11:31:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: misterwhite (#100)

"You openly advocate for municipalities having the power to take away your claimed gun rights, and your guns."

Only if the state constitution allows it and the people want it. Are you saying that people don't have the right to self-governance because you, nolu chan, disagree with the decisions they're making?

The Federal Constitution prohibits infringing upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

The people reserved the right to themselves and neither the Federal government, nor a lawless, usurping State government has the lawful power to infringe upon this right of the people.

This is true regardless of your mindless blatherings, or my astute observations of the actual law and current U.S. Supreme Court precedent.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:02:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: misterwhite (#101)

The District of Columbia is not a state. It is a Federal district. There was no need for incorporation for the 2nd amendment to apply to the District of Columbia.

Which is the main problem with the Heller decision. Had, say, Ohio banned handguns in the home for self-defense, the ruling would have been different because the court would have referred to Ohio's state constitution.

So the Heller court felt compelled to twist and distort the second amendment to make it applicable to DC residents. Which it is not.

Once again, you do not know what the hell you are talking about and just blather.

Heller only applied to the District of Columbia, not to the States.

McDonald took up the issue regarding thd States and decided that the 2nd Amendment had been incorporated into the 14th Amendment and was fully applicable to all the States.

Heller did not have to twist or distort anything to make it applicable to the District. It is a Federal district, under the control of the U.S. Congress. Congress has the power "to to exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District...." Art. 1, Sec. 8, Cl. 17. The 2nd Amendment automatically applied to the Federal district.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:03:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: misterwhite (#102)

The Massachusetts case came after the Heller decision, so you can expect weird, convoluted second amendment rulings from here on out.

The Massachusetts case followed the precedent in Heller. Caetano v. Massachusetts was a UNANIMOUS decision of the U.S. Supreme Court.

If you do not like the legally binding precedents of the U..S. Supreme Court, send them a sternly worded letter giving them the benefit of your wisdom.

Five justices on the The U.S. Supreme Court now get to define the word "arms" in the second amendment for everyone.

Yes, it has not changed. The U.S. Supreme Court is empowered by the people to issue a legally binding definition. You are not.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:04:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: misterwhite (#103)

The state defense forces do not meet the definition of the organized or unorganized militia.

If State Defense Forces don't meet the definition of a modern day state militia, then I don't know what does.

Finally, you made a statement that appears to be absolutely true.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:04:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: misterwhite (#104)

"Where did you find the constitutional right of a State to form and maintain a militia?"

I would think you would know, being an expert in common law. The authority comes from posse comitatus and pre-dates the U.S. Constitution.

The second amendment says the Federal Government can't infringe on this common law.

You're blowing it out of your ass.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section8

Article 1, Section 8:

The Congress shall have power ... To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

For your cited State Defense Forces, which may be comprised of fat 65-year old men with no military experience, they are authorized by Federal statute.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-32/chapter-1/sec.-109/

2016 US Code
Title 32 - National Guard
Chapter 1 - Organization
Sec. 109 - Maintenance of other troops

32 U.S.C. § 109 (2016)

(a) In time of peace, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States.

(e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces. Source Credit

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 600; Pub. L. 85–861, §2(2), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1542; Pub. L. 100–456, div. A, title XII, §1234(b)(1), Sept. 29, 1988, 102 Stat. 2059; Pub. L. 109–163, div. A, title X, §1057(b)(3), Jan. 6, 2006, 119 Stat. 3441; Pub. L. 111–383, div. A, title X, §1075(h)(4)(B), Jan. 7, 2011, 124 Stat. 4377.)

The Second Amendment says The Federal Government shall not infringe a RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE. By incorporation into the 14th Amendment, the restriction applies equally to the several States.

Common law. As distinguished from statutory law created by the enactment of legislatures, the common law comprises the body of those principles and rules of action, relating to the government and security of persons and property, which derive their authority solely from usages and customs of immemorial antiquity, or from the judgments and decrees of the courts recognizing, affirming, and enforcing such usages and customs; and, in this sense, particularly the ancient unwritten law of England. In general, it is a body of law that develops and derives through judicial decisions, as distinguished from legislative enactments. The "common law" is all the statutory and case law background of England and the American colonies before the American revolution.

Black's Law Dictionary 6th Ed.

Take your childish argument to your nearest pre-revolutionary colonial court.

There have never been common law courts in the United States.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:06:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: misterwhite (#105)

When used in a constitutional sense, the citizens and the people are one and the same.

Not when the U.S. Constitution was written.

Again, you are full of shit.

That is the usage of the Framers. That is why it is applicable in constitutional usage.

As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 590 (2008)

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:07:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: nolu chan (#112) (Edited)

In 1990 and in 2008, "the people" referred to a different class of citizens.

But back when the U.S. Constitution and the second amendment were written, "the people" referred only to citizens with full rights -- the right to vote, to own property, to run for office. Only they were "part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

So when Article 1, Section 2 or the second amendment refers to "the people", that's who they're talking about. Not everyone. Not back then.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   9:49:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: nolu chan (#107)

The Federal Constitution prohibits infringing upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

It does now, but only those "arms" defined as "arms" by the U.S. Supreme Court. And "keep" as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court. And "bear" as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   10:35:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: nolu chan (#108)

Heller only applied to the District of Columbia, not to the States.

And that's where it should have stayed.

"Heller did not have to twist or distort anything to make it applicable to the District."

Sure it did. It applied the second amendment protection of a militia to an individual ... because D.C. residents weren't protected by their own constitution.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   10:39:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: nolu chan (#109)

If you do not like the legally binding precedents of the U..S. Supreme Court,

Do you? You certainly don't like the precedents of Cruikshank, Presser or Miller. Those weren't legally binding precedents. They were mere suggestions, right?

"The U.S. Supreme Court is empowered by the people to issue a legally binding definition."

Which, in second amendment cases, would only bind the federal government. But that's now changed with Heller and McDonald. Now the court decides for everyone.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   10:45:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: nolu chan (#111)

There have never been common law courts in the United States.

Then stop referencing common law in your posts. You can't have it both ways.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   10:48:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: misterwhite (#113)

In 1990 and in 2008, "the people" referred to a different class of citizens.

But back when the U.S. Constitution and the second amendment were written, "the people" referred only to citizens with full rights -- the right to vote, to own property, to run for office. Only they were "part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

So when Article 1, Section 2 or the second amendment refers to "the people", that's who they're talking about. Not everyone. Not back then.

Quit just making shit up. The Constitution was not written in 1990 or 2008.

Heller and McDonald interpreted the Constitution according to original intent at the time of the writing.

Scalia [2008] and Alito [2010] were not applying your bastardized meaning of "the people."

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   16:59:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: misterwhite (#114)

The Federal Constitution prohibits infringing upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

It does now, but only those "arms" defined as "arms" by the U.S. Supreme Court. And "keep" as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court. And "bear" as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Yes, the Constitution only protects the right, as that right is defined by the U.S. Supreme Court. That is the system we have, where the U.S. Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what the law is.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   16:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: misterwhite (#115)

Heller only applied to the District of Columbia, not to the States.

And that's where it should have stayed.

It didn't. McDonald v City of Chicago,

"Heller did not have to twist or distort anything to make it applicable to the District."

Sure it did. It applied the second amendment protection of a militia to an individual ... because D.C. residents weren't protected by their own constitution.

You are out of your damn mind if you think the Federal Constitution did not apply directly to the Federal District of Columbia.

You are equally out of your mind if you think the Federal District of Columbia is a sovereign state. D.C. has no sovereignty to exercise.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   17:06:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: misterwhite (#117)

There have never been common law courts in the United States.

Then stop referencing common law in your posts. You can't have it both ways.

Once again, your comment is asiten.

The language of the Constitution and of many acts of Congress could not be understood without reference to the common law.

Moore v. United States, 91 U.S. 270, 274 (1875)

The Founders and Framers lived as colonials under English common law. The used the terminology of the common law when writing the Constitution.

[misterwhite #111] The second amendment says the Federal Government can't infringe on this common law.

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the United States.

It cannot be properly understood without reference to the common law.

U.S. Constitution, Article 6:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Constitution is the Supreme Law. It is legally IMPOSSIBLE for the Constitution to infringe upon common law, or any other law. No higher or equal law is recognized.

All thirteen original states adopted the common law, such as did not conflict with the Constitution, either in their constitution or by statute.

Common law, inconsistent with applicable written law, always falls to the written law.

While the Framers used legal terminology derived from English common law when writing the Constitution, that did not make English common law the Supreme Law of the United States.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   17:11:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: misterwhite (#116)

If you do not like the legally binding precedents of the U..S. Supreme Court,

Do you? You certainly don't like the precedents of Cruikshank, Presser or Miller. Those weren't legally binding precedents. They were mere suggestions, right?

You bullshittingly cited them as current precedent for all nature of silly bullshit.

Current precedent of Heller (2008) and McDonald 2010 hold that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, that the 2nd Amendment was incorporated into the 14th Amendment, and that the 2nd Amendment applies fully to the states.

Regarding that specific subject matter, your dredged up bullshit is not even a suggestion. Heller and McDonald are the law of the land.

"The U.S. Supreme Court is empowered by the people to issue a legally binding definition."

Which, in second amendment cases, would only bind the federal government. But that's now changed with Heller and McDonald. Now the court decides for everyone.

Almost the entirety of the Bill of Rights has been incorporated against the states. The 2nd Amendment is no exception.

- - - - - - - - - -

Heller [2008] and McDonald [2010]

The 2nd Amendment law that is.

The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is an individual right. It has been oncorporated into the 14th Amendment and applies fully to the States. The States, as well as the Federal government, are restrained from infringing upon the right to keep and bear arms.

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379582277/Parker-v-District-of-Columbia-478-F3d-372-DC-Cir-2007

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379582321/District-of-Columbia-v-Heller-554-US-570-2008

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379582348/McDonald-v-Chicago-561-US-742-2010

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379658141/Caetano-v-Massachusetts-14-10078-577-US-2016-Per-Curiam

- - - - - - - - - -

Cruickshank [1875], Presser [1886] and Miller [1939]

Non-precedent for those, such as misterwhite, who yearn for the good old days when the 2nd Amendment provided no protection from states infringing the individual right to keep and bear arms.

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379702589/united-states-v-cruickshank-92-us-542-1875

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379702620/Presser-v-Illinois-116-US-252-1886

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379702733/United-States-v-Miller-307-US-174-1939

- - - - - - - - - -

Quilici v. Morton Grove [1982]

An example of the river of shit that flowed from Cruickshank [1875], Presser [1886] and Miller [1939]

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379658174/Quilici-v-Morton-Grove-532-F-Supp-1169-ND-Ill-1981

- - - - - - - - - -

https://www.scribd.com/document/379658197/Quilici-v-Morton-Grove-695-F2d-261-7th-Cir-1982-Cert-Denied

- - - - - - - - - -

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   17:18:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: nolu chan (#120)

"You are out of your damn mind if you think the Federal Constitution did not apply directly to the Federal District of Columbia."

Federal Constitution? Whatever.

I'm not referring to the U.S. Constitution. I'm referring to the second amendment which protects state militias. D.C. is not a state. It has no state militia.

So the U.S. Supreme Court twisted the second amendment saying it protected an individual right, and therefore Mr. Heller's right to keep a handgun in the home for self-defense was preserved.

Look. Let's say you're right -- the second amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms which are in common civilian use. What protects state militias and/or the National Guard? What's to prevent the Federal government from disbanding the National Guard and organizing a standing Federal military?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   17:24:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: nolu chan (#122)

Current precedent of Heller (2008) and McDonald 2010

"In common law legal systems, a precedent is a rule established in a previous legal case that is binding on a court when deciding subsequent cases with similar issues or facts." (Wiki)

Cruikshank, Presser and Miller were precedents. They were ignored by the Heller court. The Heller court made up a whole new definition of the second amendment in order to protect Mr. Heller.

I say if the Heller court can ignore precedent, I can ignore Heller.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   17:34:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: misterwhite (#123)

I'm not referring to the U.S. Constitution. I'm referring to the second amendment which protects state militias. D.C. is not a state. It has no state militia.

Your continued militia argument is just horseshit.

I have patiently explained to you that the 2nd amendment right is an individual right, it has been incorporated into the 14th Amendment, and it applies to the District of Columbia (Heller) and to the States (McDonald).

That you do not personally approve of SCOTUS in Heller and McDonald changes nothing.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-23   0:42:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: misterwhite (#124)

I say if the Heller court can ignore precedent, I can ignore Heller.

Your argument that the Heller court lacked authority to issue its decision, due to some prior precedent, is just horseshit. I have already explained this to you.

The doctrine of following precedent is stare decisis. A precedential holding only binds lower courts in the same jurisdiction. No precedent can bind the U.S. Supreme Court as there is no higher court to issue such a precedent.

Under your lame, desperate grope, Roe v. Wade could never be overturned or reversed by the U.S. Supreme Court. It is notorious and blatantly obvious that the system does not work that way. In a new case, the U.S. Supreme Court can always revisit issues previously decided, and either uphold, overturn, or reverse a prior opinion. The Court can overturn Roe if it takes up a case and revisits the abortion issue.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-23   0:44:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: nolu chan (#126)

Under your lame, desperate grope, Roe v. Wade could never be overturned or reversed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Roe v Wade was decided on a "right to privacy" found in a penumbra of an emanation. That decision can be overturned by a court finding that no such right exists or has ever existed.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-23   9:08:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



      .
      .
      .

Comments (128 - 421) not displayed.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com