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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 44680
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

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#356. To: misterwhite (#347)

Sedition is overt conduct … that tends toward insurrection against the established order (and) often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent towards, or resistance against lawful authority.

Arrest the legislators, give them a trial, and hang 'em high. That should put an end to the bullshit.

It is your definition of sedition, and your allusion to it being a capital crime, which are bullshit.

For a criminal conviction, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt of the commission of a violation of the actual criminal statute. That puts an end to your bullshit.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2383/

2016 US Code
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

18 U.S.C. § 2383 (2016)

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2384/

2016 US Code
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

18 U.S.C. § 2384 (2016)

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2385/

Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

18 U.S.C. § 2385 (2016)

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms "organizes" and "organize", with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:04:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#357. To: misterwhite (#348)

I claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental an individual right to keep and bear arms. The individual right to keep and bear arms is not a fundamental right.

Who gives a shit what you claim? You repetitively claim all nature of silly bullshit. The Constitution has not yet been amended to empower you to take over the functions of the Judicial Branch.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in Heller and McDonald that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and an individual right.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 579-80:

1. Operative Clause.

a. “Right of the People.” The first salient feature of the operative clause is that it codifies a “right of the people.” The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause. The Ninth Amendment uses very similar terminology (“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people”). All three of these instances unambiguously refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights that may be exercised only through participation in some corporate body.

Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people” in a context other than “rights”—the famous preamble (“We the people”), §2 of Article I (providing that “the people” will choose members of the House), and the Tenth Amendment (providing that those powers not given the Federal Government remain with “the States” or “the people”). Those provisions arguably refer to “the people” acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right.

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause.

McDonald Syllabus at 561 U.S. 744: (boldface added)

The Court eventually moved in the direction advocated by Justice Black, by adopting a theory of selective incorporation by which the Due Process Clause incorporates particular rights contained in the first eight Amendments. See, e. g., Gideon v. Wainwright, 372 U. S. 335, 341. These decisions abandoned three of the characteristics of the earlier period. The Court clarified that the governing standard is whether a particular Bill of Rights protection is fundamental to our Nation’s particular scheme of ordered liberty and system of justice. Duncan, supra, at 149, n. 14. The Court eventually held that almost all of the Bill of Rights’ guarantees met the requirements for protection under the Due Process Clause.

A right protected by the Bill of Rights, only qualifies for selective incorporation via the Due Process Clause if it is determined to be fundamental. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right. It was also clearly held to be an individual right.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

III

With this framework in mind, we now turn directly to the question whether the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is incorporated in the concept of due process. In answering that question, as just explained, we must decide whether the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty, Duncan, 391 U. S., at 149, or as we have said in a related context, whether this right is “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition,” Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 721 (1997) (internal quotation marks omitted).

A

Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the answer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).

Explaining that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at 628–629 (some internal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at 628 (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” of self-defense); id., at 629 (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at 630.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 768: (boldface added)

The right to keep and bear arms was considered no less fundamental by those who drafted and ratified the Bill of Rights.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:08:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: misterwhite (#349)

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Well, that IS the question.

[misterwhite #85]

I'm saying the right is NOT protected by the second amendment and IS protected by state constitutions.

You're the one who said the RKBA is not protected by the 2nd Amendment, but is protected by state constitutions.

When asked how state constitutions perform this miracle, you say that is the question.

Apparently you never had, and still do not have, a clue as to how your state constitutions protect the 2nd Amendment RKBA. In other words, you have been caught bullshitting again.

The question is why did you claim that the RKBA is not protected by the Seconnd Amendment, but is protected by state constitutions, if your are unable to state how state constitutions accomplish this miracle.

But let's say the federal government did not act on guns. Then each state would decide, under their state constitution, how they would handle the issue -- as they did for 200 years.

Let's say the Federal government DID act on guns, because IT DID.

A Federal law is the Supreme Law of the land and strikes down all conflicting state law as null and void, and of no effect, let's not talk about your wet dreams.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:08:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#359. To: misterwhite (#350)

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

I cited the U.S. Constitution, the Alabama state constitution, and provided a link to the constitutions of all 50 states.

So the correct answer to my question is that you cited ONE CURRENTLY EFFECTIVE CONSTITUTION. That would be the U.S. Constitution.

You cited the first Alabama constitution of 1819 which has now passed through multiple editions. Other constitutions were in 1865, 1867, 1875, and 1901.

The current constitution at section 256 states:

SECTION 256

Duty of legislature to establish and maintain public school system; apportionment of public school fund; separate schools for white and colored children.

The legislature shall establish, organize, and maintain a liberal system of public schools throughout the state for the benefit of the children thereof between the ages of seven and twenty-one years. The public school fund shall be apportioned to the several counties in proportion to the number of school children of school age therein, and shall be so apportioned to the schools in the districts or townships in the counties as to provide, as nearly as practicable, school terms of equal duration in such school districts or townships. Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race.

Apparently you did not reject the ruling of the U.S. Supreme Court in Brown v. Topeka Board of Education, and permitted the schools to be desegregated to comply with the Court ruling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_in_the_Schoolhouse_Door

The Stand in the Schoolhouse Door took place at Foster Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963. George Wallace, the Democratic Governor of Alabama, in a symbolic attempt to keep his inaugural promise of "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" and stop the desegregation of schools, stood at the door of the auditorium to try to block the entry of two African American students, Vivian Malone and James Hood.

In response, President John F. Kennedy issued Executive Order 11111, which federalized the Alabama National Guard, and Guard General Henry Graham then commanded Wallace to step aside, saying, "Sir, it is my sad duty to ask you to step aside under the orders of the President of the United States." Wallace then spoke further, but eventually moved, and Malone and Hood completed their registration.

A link identifies no specific information and provides nothing to support any brain droppings you may have been muttering about.

"If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

Only in bizarro world."

I'm referring to pre-Heller/McDonald. The way it was for 200 years. The way the U.S. Constitution was written and interpreted by all courts through the centuries.

Your argument is insane bullshit.

We are not living in pre-Heller and McDonald.

You may even be surprised to learn we are not living in pre-Plessy v. Ferguson or pre-Brown v. Topeka Board of Education.

We are not even discussing your weird notions about what the law used to be.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#360. To: misterwhite (#351)

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

Yes it was. And I reject their activist opinion for all the reasons I cited.

And nobody gives a shit it you reject the rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. Their interpretations of the Constitution in Heller and McDonald are the supreme law of the land, and all inconsistent laws were struck down as null and void, and of no effect.

Your argument consists of simply repeating "It's the law" and citing, ad nauseum, excerpts from the rulings.

I cite and provide the actual law that prevails in this country. You blather your personal bullshit which, if blathered in court, gets people sent to prison as amply demonstrated by the court opinions I provided where real people tried to argue your insane bullshit.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:10:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#361. To: misterwhite (#352)

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions.

You are still full of shit.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).

The second amendment refers to the security of a free State. Most state constitutions read "that every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state".

The 2nd Amendment refers to the security of a free state in the prefacing clause, not in the operative clause.

Pursuant to Heller and McDonald, individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right, and the right itself is a fundamental individual right. That is the supreme law of the land.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:11:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: tpaine (#353)

This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot.

This thread, with the assistance of a wrong-headed idiot, is a one-stop shopping center with sources to document the falsity and vacuity of his arguments. All it needs is a bookmark for future use.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:14:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: GrandIsland, tpaine (#354)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

They cannot do it without congressional consent, which may be difficult to obtain as it would give current California six senators.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:16:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: nolu chan, misterwhite (#362)

Can you kindly abbreviate the crux of this ongoing debate?

At its core was it Feral vs. State authoritah vis a vis gun "rights" and limitations on certain arms? Thanks...

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   11:21:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: GrandIsland, tpaine (#354)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

I don't have a problem with it...other than the proposal conveniently making Frisco and Oakland part of "Northern" CA, polluting the north.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   11:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#366. To: Liberator (#365)

Most reports indicate that the most liberal part of kookifornia is the north. Then central kookifornia is found to be almost as left as north... leaving the most conservative part of kookifornia in the Sounth.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-06-20   11:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#367. To: GrandIsland (#366)

The north is the hotbed of lefties and kooks?

Right, I knew central CA was the hotbed of loons.

The problems with the south -- as you note that its where most of the conservatives hold down the fort -- is that it is inundated by La Razan invaders.

CA is in a No-Win situation. The Left has all but annexed it.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   12:00:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#368. To: nolu chan, grandisland, Y'ALL (#362)

tpaine ---- This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot, who previously called himself robertpaulsen.

Nolu ---- This thread, with the assistance of a wrong-headed idiot, is a one-stop shopping center with sources to document the falsity and vacuity of his arguments. All it needs is a bookmark for future use.

A bookmark, and an index, without which it would be almost impossible to find the constitutional cites needed, because they are buried by your compulsion to post unneeded 'lost in the weeds' legal cites.

Nevertheless, you've made a good effort, (congrats), but be prepared for the idiot to ignore you and find someone else to target with his agitprop. ---- That is his pattern, along with using other 'personalities' (grandisland, roscoe, etc) for disruptive purposes..

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-20   14:13:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#369. To: GrandIsland (#354)

Don’t you proudly live in Communist North Kookifornia?

If he doesn't he'll move there.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   15:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#370. To: nolu chan (#355)

You misconstrue the Supremacy Clause

Federal laws trump state laws to the contrary -- whether we're talking about illegal drugs or guns. Period.

Don't try to weasel your way out by citing the "type" of violation or whether or not the government funds prosecution.

And I'm not talking about decriminalization. I'm talking about a state LEGALIZING a federally controlled substance for medical or recreational use. That violates federal laws to the contrary. That violates the Supremacy Clause. That's what the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in Gonzales v. Raich (previously Ashcroft v. Raich), 545 U.S. 1 (2005).

So again I ask. How is that any different than a state legalizing the possession of a weapon banned by the federal government? If you were fucking honest for a fucking change, you'd reply, "There is no difference, misterwhite. None at all."

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   15:28:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#371. To: nolu chan (#357)

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in Heller and McDonald that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and an individual right.

Either they're full of shit or you are. The right may be "fundamental" to some goal, but it's not a fundamental right.

As proof, there's this. Any law infringing on a fundamental right must pass strict scrutiny by a court. Heller was not decided under strict scrutiny.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   15:51:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#372. To: nolu chan (#358)

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Let's try again.

You said the question is NOT whether some federal act is infringement. Well, federal laws ARE an infringement on the individual RKBA.

The protection of the individual RKBA falls under state constitutions, not the federal government or the second amendment. So when the federal government passes a law that infringes on the individual RKBA, the state is powerless to protect that right.

So the real question IS whether or not the federal government laws are an infringement on the individual RKBA. I say they are because the federal government was not given the power to ban guns.

That's what I meant.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:02:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#373. To: nolu chan (#358)

Let's say the Federal government DID act on guns, because IT DID.

True. But you said, "The question is not whether some federal act is infringement."

Well, how do you wish to proceed? You say the Federal government DID infringe on guns ... but that's not the question.

I say it IS the question. A big one. Where did the federal government get the power to ban the individual ownership of guns? And where does that power stop? And what stops that power?

Because once the federal government starts passing laws that infringe on the individual RKBA, the states can't stop that. The states can't shield their citizens from those laws.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#374. To: nolu chan (#360)

And nobody gives a shit it you reject the rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. Their interpretations of the Constitution in Heller and McDonald are the supreme law of the land,

So we can't debate Roe v Wade, or Kelo, or any other U.S. Supreme Court decision because shut up?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:18:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#375. To: nolu chan (#361)

Pursuant to Heller and McDonald, individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right,

Only because Heller and McDonald said that individual self- defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right.

Circular reasoning. It is because they said it is.

They made it up. They referenced … … nothing. They said it so that means it's true.

Well, the second amendment says NOTHING about individual self defense. It does, however, refer to the security of a free State.

STATE constitutions are very specific. THEY refer to "defense of self and the state".

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#376. To: Liberator (#364)

Our ongoing debate is about which document protects the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms.

Subsequent to the Heller ruling, nolu chan says it's the second amendment. When asked what protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, he says nothing does.

I maintain the Heller decision was wrong, that state constitutions protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state, that the second amendment protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, and that most federal laws against guns are unconstitutional.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   19:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: Liberator (#364)

Can you kindly abbreviate the crux of this ongoing debate?

misterwhite is a persistent purveyor of fake law. When the legal whore gets caught streetwalking, he moves to a new corner and starts over as a virgin.

At its core was it Feral vs. State authoritah vis a vis gun "rights" and limitations on certain arms?

At its core, state laws inconsistent with federal laws are null and void, and of no effect. That whole matter is a fake law argument, a dead letter under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:52:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#378. To: misterwhite, Liberator (#376)

Our ongoing debate is about which document protects the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms.

Subsequent to the Heller ruling, nolu chan says it's the second amendment.

nolu chan says it is the 2nd Amendment since 1791.

When asked what protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, he says nothing does.

The 2nd Amendment protects the individual right of the people to keep and bear arms. That includes those civilians enrolled in the unorganized militia.

The Federal Congress at Art. 1, §8, Cl. 16, was empowered "[t]o provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia."

The Federal government has organized the militia as the National Guard and provides ALL the weapons for the National Guard. The weapons remain the property of the Federal government. Being on active duty in the National Guard (or Regular Armed Forces) brings no "right" to keep and bear arms. Medics and clerics are prohibited from keeping and bearing arms, as are those previously convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence.

I maintain the Heller decision was wrong, that state constitutions protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state

For the umpteenth time, Heller did NOT protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state. Dick Heller was a resident of the federal District of Columbia. Heller (2008) did NOT incorporate the 2nd Amendment into the 14th Amendment. McDonald (2010), a case arising in Illinois, incorporated the 2nd Amendment into the 14th Amendment and made its protections fully enforceable against the 50 states.

It is legally impossible for a state constitution to protect against a federal law. The federal law must be challenged in federal court.

that the second amendment protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement,

This is directly contrary to Heller and McDonald.

and that most federal laws against guns are unconstitutional.

The fact is that federal courts have held such laws to be constitutional, and inconsistent provisions of state constitutions are null and void, and of no effect.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:54:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#379. To: misterwhite (#370)

I'm talking about a state LEGALIZING a federally controlled substance for medical or recreational use. That violates federal laws to the contrary. That violates the Supremacy Clause.

That does not violate the Supremacy Clause, it violates the inconsistent Federal law. As such, the state law is null and void ab initio, of no effect.

Try to buy a gun, fill out ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Report, which asks and warns at 11(e): [emphasis as in original]

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, njazrcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use pr possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

The warning above the signature block reads in relevant part: (emphasis added)

I certify that my answers in Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. ... I understand that a person who answers "yes" to any of the questions 11.b. through 11.i and/or 12.b. through 12.c. is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm. ... I also understand that making any false oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law.

Register to obtain marijuana under an invalid state law and you are considered a drug user. Lie about on your AFT-4473 and commit a felony.

That violates the Supremacy Clause. That's what the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in Gonzales v. Raich (previously Ashcroft v. Raich), 545 U.S. 1 (2005).

That is not any conclusion of Raich which stated:

The Supremacy Clause unambiguously provides that if there is any conflict between federal and state law, federal law shall prevail.

A federal law prevails over an inconsistent state law. The state law is struck down by the federal law, not for being unconstitutional.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:57:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#380. To: misterwhite (#371)

Either they're full of shit or you are. The right may be "fundamental" to some goal, but it's not a fundamental right.

Recycled sewage.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:57:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#381. To: misterwhite (#372)

The protection of the individual RKBA falls under state constitutions, not the federal government or the second amendment.

Recycled sewage.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:58:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#382. To: misterwhite (#373)

once the federal government starts passing laws that infringe on the individual RKBA, the states can't stop that. The states can't shield their citizens from those laws.

Therefore, the states cannot hypothetically protect the 2nd Amendment fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms from hypothetical Federal infringement. Arguments that it can or does are fake law.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:59:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#383. To: misterwhite (#374)

So we can't debate Roe v Wade, or Kelo, or any other U.S. Supreme Court decision because shut up?

You can debate Roe or Kelo or even Dred Scott v. Sandford. What you cannot do is pronounce your misconceived personal bullshit as the actual law, replacing the opinion of SCOTUS.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:59:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#384. To: misterwhite (#375)

Only because Heller and McDonald said that individual self- defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right.

Recycled sewage.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   11:00:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#385. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#382)

At #373, mrwrong asks: --- Where did the federal government get the power to ban the individual ownership of guns? And where does that power stop? And what stops that power?

Good question, which you haven't addressed. -- Can you? -- In your own words, please..

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-21   13:49:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#386. To: Grandiose, misterwrong, Y'ALL (#354)

GrandIsland (#354) ---- Don’t you proudly live in Communist North Kookifornia?

If he doesn't he'll move there. ---- misterwhite

Here we have two kooky 'personas' responding to itself, making idiotic comments about a previously great state where Governor Reagan began his climb to the Presidency..

After the army, I moved to San Mateo Co. (Bay Area) in 1958, and five years ago retired to Plumas Co. -- Both are considered to be in Northern California, but only the coastal areas are now infested with communistic types who distain our Constitution.. --- As do our two fascistic clowns above.

Strange bedfellows, fascists and communists, who have a special hate for conservatives --- like most of us here on LF..

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-21   14:35:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#387. To: tpaine (#385)

Where did the federal government get the power to ban the individual ownership of guns? And where does that power stop? And what stops that power?

Where did your get the legal authority to beat your wife, where does that authority end, and when are you going to stop beating your wife?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   15:35:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#388. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#387)

At #373, mrwrong asks: --- Where did the federal government get the power to ban the individual ownership of guns? And where does that power stop? And what stops that power?

Good question, which you haven't addressed. -- Can you? --- tpaine

Nolu Spam --- Where did your get the legal authority to beat your wife, where does that authority end, and when are you going to stop beating your wife?

Mr.Wrong and I applaud your idiotic response to a valid question...

Got any smarts?

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-21   15:53:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#389. To: nolu chan, misterwhite (#377)

(nolu chan) "At its [the debate] core, state laws inconsistent with federal laws are null and void, and of no effect. That whole matter is a fake law argument, a dead letter under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution."

(misterwhite) "When asked what protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, he [Nolu] says nothing does.

I maintain...that state constitutions protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state, that the second amendment protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, and that most federal laws against guns are unconstitutional."

Thank you both for responding and clarifying your respective perspective/opinion. Now I can try and make some sense out of the thread debate.

Perhaps my impression of this debate did apply ("Feral vs. State authoritah vis a vis gun "rights") in the strictest sense.

The Tenth Amendment:

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”.

We run into potential trouble here as many might see it.

One problem is concern that original intent of the Founders might be mis-interpretated by contemporary federalists.

We also have another problem with constitutional interpretation of those 9 Black Robed SCOTUS (who may believe in a "living, breathing document") -- but that may be another argument for another day.

IF the Supremacy Clause is considered THE final authority of judicial arbitration in the strictest sense, and end-all of debate between Fed vs State Law, then wouldn't (or couldn't) it theoretically render ALL State Law as either irrelevant or un-necessary?

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-21   15:57:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#390. To: Liberator (#389)

IF the Supremacy Clause is considered THE final authority of judicial arbitration in the strictest sense, and end-all of debate between Fed vs State Law, then wouldn't (or couldn't) it theoretically render ALL State Law as either irrelevant or un-necessary?

Yes. But ONLY if the federal government has the constitutional power to write the law.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-21   16:28:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#391. To: Liberator, Y'ALL (#389) (Edited)

IF the Supremacy Clause is considered THE final authority of judicial arbitration in the strictest sense, and end-all of debate between Fed vs State Law, then wouldn't (or couldn't) it theoretically render ALL State Law as either irrelevant or un-necessary? ---- Liberator

The big misconception here, made by nearly everyone, is that SCOTUS opinions change the Constitution and/or constitutional laws.. They do strike down unconstitutional laws, both fed and state.

Otherwise, these opinions only apply to the case at hand/lesser courts, --- they also serve as advisory opinions to guide the legislative/executive branches of fed and state governments on lawmaking and enforcement.

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-21   16:44:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#392. To: misterwhite, nolu chan, Y'ALL (#390)

Liberator (#389) ----- IF the Supremacy Clause is considered THE final authority of judicial arbitration in the strictest sense, and end-all of debate between Fed vs State Law, then wouldn't (or couldn't) it theoretically render ALL State Law as either irrelevant or un-necessary?

Yes. But ONLY if the federal government has the constitutional power to write the law. ----- misterwhite

And in this case, the Constitution does NOT give Congress the power to write laws that infringe on our right to bear arms..

In fact, given the principles inherent in all our founding documents, it stands to reason that this right cannot be abriged, -- it cannot be amended away..

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-21   17:01:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#393. To: Liberator (#389)

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”.

As for the militia, the Constitution gives the unilateral power to the Congress to, "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia...."

The operative clause of the 2nd Amendment states, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

It was a pre-existing right of the people, and the people did not delegate it to either the Federal government or the State government. It is still the right of the people. The Second Amendment was an act of the people, not the government. The 2nd Amendment neither created the right, nor bestowed it upon anyone. The 2nd Amendment was a restriction placed by the people on the federal government, in protection of their right to keep and bear arms.

The right to keep and bear arms was the English common law right of the colonists under British rule. Heller notes that, "By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone 136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140; see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities concurred."

The Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment reads, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...."

Originally, the Bill of Rights only restrained the federal government. The Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment reads, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...." This post-war Amendment applied to the states. For many years, the Supreme Court has acted on the provisions of the Bill of Rights piecemeal, and holdinng that the Due Process Clause incorporates particular rights contained in the first eight Amendments, making them enforceable against the states. McDonald found that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty and system of justice. McDonald also observed that, "The right to keep and bear arms was considered no less fundamental by those who drafted and ratified the Bill of Rights," and gives voluminous citation to those early Americans. Heller found, and McDonald affirmed, that "individual self-defense is the central component of the Second Amendment right."

I am not arguing the law that ought to be, but that law that is. One may readily argue that Roe is wrongly decided, and abortion will still be legal in all 50 states, and may not be banned by any state. Arguing that a SCOTUS opinion is wrongly decided does not change it. They are the ultimate arbiter of the law.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   17:44:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#394. To: tpaine (#392)

And in this case, the Constitution does NOT give Congress the power to write laws that infringe on our right to bear arms..

Congress does not claim any such power. The right to keep and bear arms is not absolute, and never has been. It has never applied to weapons not lawful to possess, and is subject to regulation, just as are other rights. The right to free speech is not the right to utter falsehoods under oath or to commit libel or slander with impunity.

You simply adopt a false definition of the right, then attack your straw man.

The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms does not mean that everyone has a right to keep and bear an illegal-to-possess M-16 or a nuclear bomb.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   17:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#395. To: tpaine, Liberator (#391)

The big misconception here, made by nearly everyone, is that SCOTUS opinions change the Constitution and/or constitutional laws.. They do strike down unconstitutional laws, both fed and state.

That is complete bullshit, as I have informed you many times over.

SCOTUS interpret constitutional provisions. Those interpretations may change.

Plessy v. Ferguson found seperate but equal to be constitutional. Brown v. Board of Education found seperate but equal to be inherently unequal and unconstitutional. There were segregated schools, and then there were not.

Otherwise, these opinions only apply to the case at hand/lesser courts,

If Roe only applied to the case at hand, why is abortion lawful in all 50 states, and cannot be prohibited by any of the 50 states?

--- they also serve as advisory opinions to guide the legislative/executive branches of fed and state governments on lawmaking and enforcement.

Federal courts are prohibited from issuing advisory opinions.

The opinions they do issue are anything but advisory.

Advisory opinion. Such may be rendered ay a court at the request of the government or an interested party indicating how the court would rule on a matter should adversary litigation develop. An advisory opinion is thus an interpretation of the law without binding effect. While the International Court of Law and Justice and some state courts will render advisory opinions the federal courts will not; their jurisdiction being restricted to cases or controversies.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/advisory_opinion

Advisory Opinion

A court's nonbinding interpretation of law. It states the opinion of a court upon a legal question submitted by a legislature, government official, or another court. Federal courts cannot issue advisory opinions because of the Constitution's case-or-controversy requirement.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-13-02-0263

George Washington requested an advisory opinion from the U.S. Supreme Court. In a letter signed by Chief Justice John Jay and four associate justices, the Court politely refused.

To George Washington from Supreme Court Justices, 8 August 1793

From Supreme Court Justices

Philadelphia 8 Augt 1793

Sir

We have considered the previous Question stated in a Letter written to us by your Direction, by the Secretary of State, on the 18th of last month.1

The Lines of Separation drawn by the Constitution between the three Departments of Government—their being in certain Respects checks on each other—and our being Judges of a court in the last Resort—are Considerations which afford strong arguments against the Propriety of our extrajudicially deciding the questions alluded to; especially as the Power given by the Constitution to the President of calling on the Heads of Departments for opinions, seems to have been purposely as well as expressly limited to executive Departments.

we exceedingly regret every Event that may cause Embarrassment to your administration; but we derive Consolation from the Reflection, that your Judgment will discern what is Right, and that your usual Prudence, Decision and Firmness will surmount every obstacle to the Preservation of the Rights, Peace, and Dignity of the united States. We have the Honor to be, with perfect Respect, Sir, your most obedient and most h’ble servants

John Jay
James Wilson
John Blair
Ja. Iredell
Wm Paterson

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   18:22:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#396. To: nolu chan (#393)

"The operative clause of the 2nd Amendment states, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

So? You can't cite a portion of the second amendment, call it "The Operative Clause", pretend it stands alone, then sit back like that explains everything. Worse, claim things that aren't there -- like "self-defense is the central component of the right itself".

Huh? What if I claimed that hunting is the central component of the right itself? You buy that? I think you'd ask me to support such a claim.

Anyways, you can't omit the first part -- "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" -- because that part explains your "operative clause". Why else put in in the second amendment? You don't like it because it totally fucks up your individual rights theory.

Lastly, the phrase "to keep and bear arms" is a military phrase. The Founders intentionally used that phrase because that is what they wished to protect from federal infringement.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-21   18:35:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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