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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 55979
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

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#340. To: nolu chan (#337)

You have a strange way of expressing your "pro-constitution" views.

My "views" are consistent with the language and the intent of the constitutions I cited.

"Of course," you say, the state (and even towns and villages) had the lawfully delegated power to take away the fundamental individual right of the people to keep and bear arms."

If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

"As we all know, and as this thread documents, what you accept as constitutional laws is determined by your own personal legal system, rejecting the opinions of the U.S. Supreme Court and the other Federal courts."

What I accept as constitutional laws is determined by the language and original intent of the constitution. Sometimes the courts get it wrong. This is one of them.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   13:17:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#341. To: nolu chan (#337)

The fundamental individual right of the people belongs to the people, not the militia.

The fundamental individual right of the people protected by the second amendment belongs to the people of the militia. That's according to the clear language of the second amendment as interpreted for over 200 years.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   13:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#342. To: misterwhite (#338)

Constitutionality is defined as whether or not the Federal government wants to spend the effort and money to rigorously enforce the laws?

I did not say that. If you think that, it is your personal problem. I am not interested in your personal problems.

Murder is a crime and mopery is a crime. When apprehended, one is more likely to result in prosecution than the other.

The federal government only needs to prosecute the legislators of one state for sedition and the rest will fall in line.

They would probably die from laughing.

Sedition is illegal action tending to cause the disruption and overthrow of the government.

Who is trying to overthrow the government, other than yourself?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:33:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#343. To: misterwhite (#339)

Where does the federal government get the power to infringe the gun rights of citizens? The answer is, they don't have that power.

You claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

Now you claim the states never thought they would have to deal with the matter.

The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

I know you don't have an answer, and will never admit it, but I enjoy reading your word salad attempts to change the question to anything but how a state constitution protects the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

State constitutions only apply to the state.

The only way to legally contest a federal law is in federal court.

Meaning, the states never thought they'd have to deal with it.

As for the states never having thought of the Federal government as a usurper of rights, that is just more bullshit. It was adddressed and published in Federalist 46 by James Madison.

Madison, Federalist 46, re the Militia

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:34:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#344. To: misterwhite (#340)

My "views" are consistent with the language and the intent of the constitutions I cited.

The United States has one Constitution. All state constitutions must conform to it.

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

"Of course," you say, the state (and even towns and villages) had the lawfully delegated power to take away the fundamental individual right of the people to keep and bear arms."

If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

Only in bizarro world.

McDonald, Syllabus at 561 U.S. 744

The Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms fully applicable to the States.

The Second Amendment protects the fundamental right to keep and bear arms in every state and territory of the union, and in the District of Columbia. Observance of the right is not optional for the states or municipalities.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”). Explaining that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at 628–629 (some internal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at 628 (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” of self-defense); id., at 629 (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at 630.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:35:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#345. To: misterwhite (#341)

The fundamental individual right of the people belongs to the people, not the militia.

The fundamental individual right of the people protected by the second amendment belongs to the people of the militia. That's according to the clear language of the second amendment as interpreted for over 200 years.

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

That is according to the clear language of the U.S. Supreme Court. Self-defense was the central component of the right itself.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:36:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#346. To: nolu chan (#342)

Murder is a crime and mopery is a crime.

Murder and mopery are on opposite ends of the crime spectrum.

I'm talking about a state legalizing a recreational drug in violation of federal law vs. a state legalizing the ownership of a weapon banned under federal law.

I don't see a constitutional difference. They both violate the Supremacy Clause.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#347. To: nolu chan (#342)

"Sedition is illegal action tending to cause the disruption and overthrow of the government."

Sedition is overt conduct … that tends toward insurrection against the established order (and) often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent towards, or resistance against lawful authority.

Arrest the legislators, give them a trial, and hang 'em high. That should put an end to the bullshit.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:08:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#348. To: nolu chan (#343)

You claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

I claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental an individual right to keep and bear arms. The individual right to keep and bear arms is not a fundamental right.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:12:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#349. To: nolu chan (#343)

Now you claim the states never thought they would have to deal with the matter.

Correct. They never envisioned the federal government banning weapons under the Commerce Clause. If a state wanted certain weapons banned, they would ban them.

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Well, that IS the question. But let's say the federal government did not act on guns. Then each state would decide, under their state constitution, how they would handle the issue -- as they did for 200 years.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:28:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#350. To: nolu chan (#344)

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

I cited the U.S. Constitution, the Alabama state constitution, and provided a link to the constitutions of all 50 states.

"If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it. Only in bizarro world."

I'm referring to pre-Heller/McDonald. The way it was for 200 years. The way the U.S. Constitution was written and interpreted by all courts through the centuries.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:34:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#351. To: nolu chan (#345)

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

Yes it was. And I reject their activist opinion for all the reasons I cited.

Your argument consists of simply repeating "It's the law" and citing, ad nauseum, excerpts from the rulings.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:40:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#352. To: nolu chan (#345)

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions.

The second amendment refers to the security of a free State. Most state constitutions read "that every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state".

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:47:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#353. To: misterwrong strikes again, making a fool of himself. --- 101 (#352)

nolu chan (#345) ---- "Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions. ---- mrwrong

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself." ---- Exemplified by the words of the document..

This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot.

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-19   18:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#354. To: tpaine (#353)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

Don’t you proudly live in Communist North Kookifornia?

lol

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-06-19   21:46:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#355. To: misterwhite (#346)

Murder and mopery are on opposite ends of the crime spectrum.

Mopery is measured on the stupidity spectrum. Malicious mopery, committed against a woman on Sunday, is especially heinous (and stupid).

I'm talking about a state legalizing a recreational drug in violation of federal law vs. a state legalizing the ownership of a weapon banned under federal law.

A state may decriminalize marijuana possession under state law. They simply repeal any state law that made it a state crime.

No state can make marijuana possession legal. A state law saying marijuana possession is legal conflicts with federal law and is null and void, and of no effect. A transgressor is still subject to federal prosecution.

If you register or acquire a state permit or license to purchase marijuana, you forfeit your right to possess a gun. You piss away your Second Amendment fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

A state law saying automatic weapon possession was legal in the state would be null and void, and of no effect.

I don't see a constitutional difference. They both violate the Supremacy Clause.

Walk into the federal courthouse carrying a doobie and an M-16 and you will learn the difference. One is a minor misdemeanor and the other is a major felony. Congress has given the Department of Justice no funding to prosecute marijuana possession cases, so you won't face federal prosecution for the doobie unless they get funding.

Neither violates the Supremacy Clause. You misconstrue the Supremacy Clause just as you misconstrue the 2nd Amendment. The Supremacy Clause is a statement of which law prevails, federal or state.

States which merely decriminalize marijuana possession under state law do not violate the Supremacy Clause. Just because the federal government enacts a law making marijuana possession unlawful does not mean that a state must have such a law. The nonexistence of such a state law does not make marijuana possession lawful in the state, it just makes it non-prosecutable under state law.

A state law which purports that small amount marijuana possession is legal in the state does not violate the Supremacy Clause. It violates the applicable Federal law.

States may similarly repeal all state gun control laws without violating the Supremacy Clause. That does not make the Federal law any less applicable.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:04:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#356. To: misterwhite (#347)

Sedition is overt conduct … that tends toward insurrection against the established order (and) often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent towards, or resistance against lawful authority.

Arrest the legislators, give them a trial, and hang 'em high. That should put an end to the bullshit.

It is your definition of sedition, and your allusion to it being a capital crime, which are bullshit.

For a criminal conviction, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt of the commission of a violation of the actual criminal statute. That puts an end to your bullshit.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2383/

2016 US Code
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

18 U.S.C. § 2383 (2016)

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2384/

2016 US Code
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

18 U.S.C. § 2384 (2016)

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2385/

Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

18 U.S.C. § 2385 (2016)

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms "organizes" and "organize", with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:04:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#357. To: misterwhite (#348)

I claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental an individual right to keep and bear arms. The individual right to keep and bear arms is not a fundamental right.

Who gives a shit what you claim? You repetitively claim all nature of silly bullshit. The Constitution has not yet been amended to empower you to take over the functions of the Judicial Branch.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in Heller and McDonald that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and an individual right.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 579-80:

1. Operative Clause.

a. “Right of the People.” The first salient feature of the operative clause is that it codifies a “right of the people.” The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause. The Ninth Amendment uses very similar terminology (“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people”). All three of these instances unambiguously refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights that may be exercised only through participation in some corporate body.

Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people” in a context other than “rights”—the famous preamble (“We the people”), §2 of Article I (providing that “the people” will choose members of the House), and the Tenth Amendment (providing that those powers not given the Federal Government remain with “the States” or “the people”). Those provisions arguably refer to “the people” acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right.

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause.

McDonald Syllabus at 561 U.S. 744: (boldface added)

The Court eventually moved in the direction advocated by Justice Black, by adopting a theory of selective incorporation by which the Due Process Clause incorporates particular rights contained in the first eight Amendments. See, e. g., Gideon v. Wainwright, 372 U. S. 335, 341. These decisions abandoned three of the characteristics of the earlier period. The Court clarified that the governing standard is whether a particular Bill of Rights protection is fundamental to our Nation’s particular scheme of ordered liberty and system of justice. Duncan, supra, at 149, n. 14. The Court eventually held that almost all of the Bill of Rights’ guarantees met the requirements for protection under the Due Process Clause.

A right protected by the Bill of Rights, only qualifies for selective incorporation via the Due Process Clause if it is determined to be fundamental. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right. It was also clearly held to be an individual right.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

III

With this framework in mind, we now turn directly to the question whether the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is incorporated in the concept of due process. In answering that question, as just explained, we must decide whether the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty, Duncan, 391 U. S., at 149, or as we have said in a related context, whether this right is “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition,” Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 721 (1997) (internal quotation marks omitted).

A

Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the answer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).

Explaining that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at 628–629 (some internal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at 628 (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” of self-defense); id., at 629 (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at 630.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 768: (boldface added)

The right to keep and bear arms was considered no less fundamental by those who drafted and ratified the Bill of Rights.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:08:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: misterwhite (#349)

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Well, that IS the question.

[misterwhite #85]

I'm saying the right is NOT protected by the second amendment and IS protected by state constitutions.

You're the one who said the RKBA is not protected by the 2nd Amendment, but is protected by state constitutions.

When asked how state constitutions perform this miracle, you say that is the question.

Apparently you never had, and still do not have, a clue as to how your state constitutions protect the 2nd Amendment RKBA. In other words, you have been caught bullshitting again.

The question is why did you claim that the RKBA is not protected by the Seconnd Amendment, but is protected by state constitutions, if your are unable to state how state constitutions accomplish this miracle.

But let's say the federal government did not act on guns. Then each state would decide, under their state constitution, how they would handle the issue -- as they did for 200 years.

Let's say the Federal government DID act on guns, because IT DID.

A Federal law is the Supreme Law of the land and strikes down all conflicting state law as null and void, and of no effect, let's not talk about your wet dreams.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:08:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#359. To: misterwhite (#350)

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

I cited the U.S. Constitution, the Alabama state constitution, and provided a link to the constitutions of all 50 states.

So the correct answer to my question is that you cited ONE CURRENTLY EFFECTIVE CONSTITUTION. That would be the U.S. Constitution.

You cited the first Alabama constitution of 1819 which has now passed through multiple editions. Other constitutions were in 1865, 1867, 1875, and 1901.

The current constitution at section 256 states:

SECTION 256

Duty of legislature to establish and maintain public school system; apportionment of public school fund; separate schools for white and colored children.

The legislature shall establish, organize, and maintain a liberal system of public schools throughout the state for the benefit of the children thereof between the ages of seven and twenty-one years. The public school fund shall be apportioned to the several counties in proportion to the number of school children of school age therein, and shall be so apportioned to the schools in the districts or townships in the counties as to provide, as nearly as practicable, school terms of equal duration in such school districts or townships. Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race.

Apparently you did not reject the ruling of the U.S. Supreme Court in Brown v. Topeka Board of Education, and permitted the schools to be desegregated to comply with the Court ruling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_in_the_Schoolhouse_Door

The Stand in the Schoolhouse Door took place at Foster Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963. George Wallace, the Democratic Governor of Alabama, in a symbolic attempt to keep his inaugural promise of "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" and stop the desegregation of schools, stood at the door of the auditorium to try to block the entry of two African American students, Vivian Malone and James Hood.

In response, President John F. Kennedy issued Executive Order 11111, which federalized the Alabama National Guard, and Guard General Henry Graham then commanded Wallace to step aside, saying, "Sir, it is my sad duty to ask you to step aside under the orders of the President of the United States." Wallace then spoke further, but eventually moved, and Malone and Hood completed their registration.

A link identifies no specific information and provides nothing to support any brain droppings you may have been muttering about.

"If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

Only in bizarro world."

I'm referring to pre-Heller/McDonald. The way it was for 200 years. The way the U.S. Constitution was written and interpreted by all courts through the centuries.

Your argument is insane bullshit.

We are not living in pre-Heller and McDonald.

You may even be surprised to learn we are not living in pre-Plessy v. Ferguson or pre-Brown v. Topeka Board of Education.

We are not even discussing your weird notions about what the law used to be.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#360. To: misterwhite (#351)

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

Yes it was. And I reject their activist opinion for all the reasons I cited.

And nobody gives a shit it you reject the rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. Their interpretations of the Constitution in Heller and McDonald are the supreme law of the land, and all inconsistent laws were struck down as null and void, and of no effect.

Your argument consists of simply repeating "It's the law" and citing, ad nauseum, excerpts from the rulings.

I cite and provide the actual law that prevails in this country. You blather your personal bullshit which, if blathered in court, gets people sent to prison as amply demonstrated by the court opinions I provided where real people tried to argue your insane bullshit.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:10:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#361. To: misterwhite (#352)

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions.

You are still full of shit.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).

The second amendment refers to the security of a free State. Most state constitutions read "that every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state".

The 2nd Amendment refers to the security of a free state in the prefacing clause, not in the operative clause.

Pursuant to Heller and McDonald, individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right, and the right itself is a fundamental individual right. That is the supreme law of the land.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:11:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: tpaine (#353)

This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot.

This thread, with the assistance of a wrong-headed idiot, is a one-stop shopping center with sources to document the falsity and vacuity of his arguments. All it needs is a bookmark for future use.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:14:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: GrandIsland, tpaine (#354)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

They cannot do it without congressional consent, which may be difficult to obtain as it would give current California six senators.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:16:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: nolu chan, misterwhite (#362)

Can you kindly abbreviate the crux of this ongoing debate?

At its core was it Feral vs. State authoritah vis a vis gun "rights" and limitations on certain arms? Thanks...

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   11:21:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: GrandIsland, tpaine (#354)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

I don't have a problem with it...other than the proposal conveniently making Frisco and Oakland part of "Northern" CA, polluting the north.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   11:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#366. To: Liberator (#365)

Most reports indicate that the most liberal part of kookifornia is the north. Then central kookifornia is found to be almost as left as north... leaving the most conservative part of kookifornia in the Sounth.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-06-20   11:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#367. To: GrandIsland (#366)

The north is the hotbed of lefties and kooks?

Right, I knew central CA was the hotbed of loons.

The problems with the south -- as you note that its where most of the conservatives hold down the fort -- is that it is inundated by La Razan invaders.

CA is in a No-Win situation. The Left has all but annexed it.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   12:00:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#368. To: nolu chan, grandisland, Y'ALL (#362)

tpaine ---- This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot, who previously called himself robertpaulsen.

Nolu ---- This thread, with the assistance of a wrong-headed idiot, is a one-stop shopping center with sources to document the falsity and vacuity of his arguments. All it needs is a bookmark for future use.

A bookmark, and an index, without which it would be almost impossible to find the constitutional cites needed, because they are buried by your compulsion to post unneeded 'lost in the weeds' legal cites.

Nevertheless, you've made a good effort, (congrats), but be prepared for the idiot to ignore you and find someone else to target with his agitprop. ---- That is his pattern, along with using other 'personalities' (grandisland, roscoe, etc) for disruptive purposes..

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-20   14:13:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#369. To: GrandIsland (#354)

Don’t you proudly live in Communist North Kookifornia?

If he doesn't he'll move there.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   15:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#370. To: nolu chan (#355)

You misconstrue the Supremacy Clause

Federal laws trump state laws to the contrary -- whether we're talking about illegal drugs or guns. Period.

Don't try to weasel your way out by citing the "type" of violation or whether or not the government funds prosecution.

And I'm not talking about decriminalization. I'm talking about a state LEGALIZING a federally controlled substance for medical or recreational use. That violates federal laws to the contrary. That violates the Supremacy Clause. That's what the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in Gonzales v. Raich (previously Ashcroft v. Raich), 545 U.S. 1 (2005).

So again I ask. How is that any different than a state legalizing the possession of a weapon banned by the federal government? If you were fucking honest for a fucking change, you'd reply, "There is no difference, misterwhite. None at all."

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   15:28:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#371. To: nolu chan (#357)

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in Heller and McDonald that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and an individual right.

Either they're full of shit or you are. The right may be "fundamental" to some goal, but it's not a fundamental right.

As proof, there's this. Any law infringing on a fundamental right must pass strict scrutiny by a court. Heller was not decided under strict scrutiny.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   15:51:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#372. To: nolu chan (#358)

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Let's try again.

You said the question is NOT whether some federal act is infringement. Well, federal laws ARE an infringement on the individual RKBA.

The protection of the individual RKBA falls under state constitutions, not the federal government or the second amendment. So when the federal government passes a law that infringes on the individual RKBA, the state is powerless to protect that right.

So the real question IS whether or not the federal government laws are an infringement on the individual RKBA. I say they are because the federal government was not given the power to ban guns.

That's what I meant.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:02:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#373. To: nolu chan (#358)

Let's say the Federal government DID act on guns, because IT DID.

True. But you said, "The question is not whether some federal act is infringement."

Well, how do you wish to proceed? You say the Federal government DID infringe on guns ... but that's not the question.

I say it IS the question. A big one. Where did the federal government get the power to ban the individual ownership of guns? And where does that power stop? And what stops that power?

Because once the federal government starts passing laws that infringe on the individual RKBA, the states can't stop that. The states can't shield their citizens from those laws.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#374. To: nolu chan (#360)

And nobody gives a shit it you reject the rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. Their interpretations of the Constitution in Heller and McDonald are the supreme law of the land,

So we can't debate Roe v Wade, or Kelo, or any other U.S. Supreme Court decision because shut up?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:18:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#375. To: nolu chan (#361)

Pursuant to Heller and McDonald, individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right,

Only because Heller and McDonald said that individual self- defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right.

Circular reasoning. It is because they said it is.

They made it up. They referenced … … nothing. They said it so that means it's true.

Well, the second amendment says NOTHING about individual self defense. It does, however, refer to the security of a free State.

STATE constitutions are very specific. THEY refer to "defense of self and the state".

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   16:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#376. To: Liberator (#364)

Our ongoing debate is about which document protects the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms.

Subsequent to the Heller ruling, nolu chan says it's the second amendment. When asked what protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, he says nothing does.

I maintain the Heller decision was wrong, that state constitutions protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state, that the second amendment protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, and that most federal laws against guns are unconstitutional.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-20   19:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: Liberator (#364)

Can you kindly abbreviate the crux of this ongoing debate?

misterwhite is a persistent purveyor of fake law. When the legal whore gets caught streetwalking, he moves to a new corner and starts over as a virgin.

At its core was it Feral vs. State authoritah vis a vis gun "rights" and limitations on certain arms?

At its core, state laws inconsistent with federal laws are null and void, and of no effect. That whole matter is a fake law argument, a dead letter under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:52:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#378. To: misterwhite, Liberator (#376)

Our ongoing debate is about which document protects the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms.

Subsequent to the Heller ruling, nolu chan says it's the second amendment.

nolu chan says it is the 2nd Amendment since 1791.

When asked what protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement, he says nothing does.

The 2nd Amendment protects the individual right of the people to keep and bear arms. That includes those civilians enrolled in the unorganized militia.

The Federal Congress at Art. 1, §8, Cl. 16, was empowered "[t]o provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia."

The Federal government has organized the militia as the National Guard and provides ALL the weapons for the National Guard. The weapons remain the property of the Federal government. Being on active duty in the National Guard (or Regular Armed Forces) brings no "right" to keep and bear arms. Medics and clerics are prohibited from keeping and bearing arms, as are those previously convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence.

I maintain the Heller decision was wrong, that state constitutions protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state

For the umpteenth time, Heller did NOT protect the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms in their state. Dick Heller was a resident of the federal District of Columbia. Heller (2008) did NOT incorporate the 2nd Amendment into the 14th Amendment. McDonald (2010), a case arising in Illinois, incorporated the 2nd Amendment into the 14th Amendment and made its protections fully enforceable against the 50 states.

It is legally impossible for a state constitution to protect against a federal law. The federal law must be challenged in federal court.

that the second amendment protects state militias and their arms from federal infringement,

This is directly contrary to Heller and McDonald.

and that most federal laws against guns are unconstitutional.

The fact is that federal courts have held such laws to be constitutional, and inconsistent provisions of state constitutions are null and void, and of no effect.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:54:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#379. To: misterwhite (#370)

I'm talking about a state LEGALIZING a federally controlled substance for medical or recreational use. That violates federal laws to the contrary. That violates the Supremacy Clause.

That does not violate the Supremacy Clause, it violates the inconsistent Federal law. As such, the state law is null and void ab initio, of no effect.

Try to buy a gun, fill out ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Report, which asks and warns at 11(e): [emphasis as in original]

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, njazrcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use pr possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

The warning above the signature block reads in relevant part: (emphasis added)

I certify that my answers in Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. ... I understand that a person who answers "yes" to any of the questions 11.b. through 11.i and/or 12.b. through 12.c. is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm. ... I also understand that making any false oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law.

Register to obtain marijuana under an invalid state law and you are considered a drug user. Lie about on your AFT-4473 and commit a felony.

That violates the Supremacy Clause. That's what the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in Gonzales v. Raich (previously Ashcroft v. Raich), 545 U.S. 1 (2005).

That is not any conclusion of Raich which stated:

The Supremacy Clause unambiguously provides that if there is any conflict between federal and state law, federal law shall prevail.

A federal law prevails over an inconsistent state law. The state law is struck down by the federal law, not for being unconstitutional.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:57:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#380. To: misterwhite (#371)

Either they're full of shit or you are. The right may be "fundamental" to some goal, but it's not a fundamental right.

Recycled sewage.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-21   10:57:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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