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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 55934
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

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#325. To: misterwhite (#318)

I said state constitutions protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, subject to constitutional federal laws (as per the Supremacy Clause).

CRS Report - Firearms Prohibitions and Domestic Violence Convictions - The Lautenberg Amendment (October 1, 2001)

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-18   11:18:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#326. To: misterwhite (#293)

[nolu chan #289] You keep mumbling some bullshit about how states protect the right to keep and bear arms through their constitutions, but your are absolute crickets about how they do it.

[misterwhite #293] How? It's written in their state constitution. Alabama, for example, has this:

"That the great, general and essential principles of liberty and free government may be recognized and established, we declare.... That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state. (Ala. Const. art. I, § 26) (1819)."

- - - - - - - - - -

[misterwhite #318] I said state constitutions protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, subject to constitutional federal laws (as per the Supremacy Clause).

MISTERWHITE'S BULLSHIT GOES TO COURT, Chapter 7

The 11th Circuit and the District Court for the District of Alabama Protect 2nd Amendment Rights in Alabama

United States v. White, 593 F.3d 1199 (11th Cir., 2010)

593 F.3d 1199 (2010)

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee,
v.
Ludivic WHITE, Jr., Defendant-Appellant.

No. 08-16010.

United States Court of Appeals, Eleventh Circuit.

January 11, 2010.

*1200 Daniel L. McCleave (Court-Appointed), McCleave, Denson, Shields, LLC, Mobile, AL, for White.

Richard H. Loftin, Steven E. Butler, Mobile, AL, for U.S.

Laura Moranchek Hussain, Wilmer, Cutler, Pickering, Hale & Dorr, LLP, Washington, DC, for Amici Curiae.

Before DUBINA, Chief Judge, and BIRCH and SILER,[*] Circuit Judges.

SILER, Circuit Judge:

INTRODUCTION

Ludivic White, Jr., appeals his conviction for possession of a firearm by a person convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9). For the following reasons, we affirm.

*1201

I.

At around 2:00 a.m. on April 21, 2007, Police Officers Brad Latham and Otha Lee Hargrove received a complaint about loud music coming from a vehicle parked in a high-crime area of Mobile, Alabama. Upon arriving at the scene, the officers saw a vehicle that matched dispatch's description. As Officer Hargrove drove by the vehicle with his windows partially open, he smelled a "strong" odor of marijuana and heard music emanating from the car. The vehicle contained four occupants: two females in the front seat and two males in the back seat.

Latham approached the driver and asked for identification, which she was unable to provide. The officers then questioned the occupants about whether they had been smoking marijuana. The occupants denied possessing or using any drugs. Latham asked the driver to exit the vehicle and requested her name and social security number to perform a background check. Latham then requested that White step out of the car. Shortly thereafter, Hargrove, who was busy performing a background check on the other male passenger, heard Latham say "gun," at which point he saw Latham remove a black handgun from White's person. The officers arrested White after he failed to produce a permit for the pistol. No drugs were found in the car. Latham filed two police reports detailing the incident, neither of which mentioned the smell of marijuana. Hargrove did not file any written reports.

White was indicted for possession of a firearm by a person convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9). Before trial, he filed a motion to suppress the firearm found on his person during the search, arguing that the officers had violated his Fourth Amendment rights. Hargrove testified to the facts stated above at the suppression hearing. On the motion to suppress, the court found that he was a credible witness, and it held that the smell of marijuana gave the officers reasonable suspicion to detain and question the passengers and to pat them down for officer safety.

Both officers testified at trial. Hargrove's testimony remained the same. Latham stated that he responded to a loud noise complaint; when he arrived on the scene, a car matching the description in the complaint contained four occupants and only the dome light was on; and the occupants, when questioned, could not produce identification. He stated that he and Hargrove asked all the occupants if there were any weapons or illegal items in the vehicle, to which each responded in the negative. After recognizing White as having "given [him] problems in the past to where [sic] I stopped him before," he "patted him down for weapons . . . for officer safety," which was "standard [department] practice." As he was patting White down, he noticed the gun's magazine protruding from White's pocket. He could not remember whether there had been any music playing in the car, although he testified that if there had been, it was not loud. He stated that his report had not mentioned marijuana, because he had not smelled any.

Marcus Carothers and Tequila Ward Prince, two of the occupants of the car, later testified that they had been smoking marijuana prior to the stop. They stated that they had not been playing loud music, and that they believed that the loud noise complaint had been filed by a disgruntled neighbor. They were unsure whether the smell of marijuana had lingered in the air, but they estimated that they had ceased smoking marijuana between five to twenty minutes before the officers arrived.

*1202

To prove the predicate offense, the government offered a certified copy of White's previous misdemeanor conviction for domestic violence, which stated that he was convicted on January 11, 2005, of domestic violence in the third degree, harassment, in violation of Alabama Code §§ 13A-11-8A and 13A-6-132.[1] According to his conviction, on June 22, 2003, he tried to choke his then live-in girlfriend. The district court overruled his objection that this conviction did not qualify as a predicate offense under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9).

After the government rested, White moved for a judgment of acquittal and renewed his motion to suppress the gun. The district court denied both motions. The jury found White guilty, and he was sentenced to forty-six months' imprisonment. The trial court also denied his subsequent motion to dismiss based upon District of Columbia v. Heller, ___ U.S. ___, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 171 L. Ed. 2d 637 (2008). White now appeals pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1291.

II.

A.

1.

White first contests the district court's denial of his motion to suppress the gun found during the pat-down search. "Rulings on motions to suppress evidence constitute mixed questions of law and fact." United States v. LeCroy, 441 F.3d 914, 925 (11th Cir.2006). We accept the district court's findings of fact, including the district court's credibility determinations, unless they are clearly erroneous. United States v. Ramirez-Chilel, 289 F.3d 744, 749 (11th Cir.2002). We review the application of law to those facts de novo. LeCroy, 441 F.3d at 925. Because the pat-down search to preserve officer safety was not unreasonable given the totality of the circumstances, we affirm the district court's denial of the motion to suppress.

2.

"Our analysis [of the legality of the pat-down search] is governed by the principles of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 20 L. Ed. 2d 889 (1968), under which the police may stop and briefly detain a person to investigate a reasonable suspicion that he is involved in criminal activity, even though probable cause is lacking." United States v. Williams, 876 F.2d 1521, 1523 (11th Cir.1989). To justify a Terry stop, the officers must "have a reasonable, articulable suspicion based on objective facts that the person has engaged in, or is about to engage in, criminal activity." United States v. Lindsey, 482 F.3d 1285, 1290 (11th Cir.2007) (quoting United States v. Powell, 222 F.3d 913, 917 (11th Cir.2000)), cert. denied 552 U.S. 974, 128 S. Ct. 438, 169 L. Ed. 2d 305 (2007). In connection with a Terry stop, an officer may conduct a pat-down search if he has reason to believe that his own safety or the safety of others is at risk. Terry, 392 U.S. at 27, 88 S.Ct. at 1883. "The officer need not be absolutely certain that the individual is armed; the issue is whether a reasonably prudent man in the circumstances would be warranted in the belief that his

*1203

safety or that of others was in danger." Id. (emphasis added).

The district court found that (1) Hargrove was credible, and (2) he smelled marijuana. We "must accept [these factual findings] unless [they are] so inconsistent or improbable on [their] face that no reasonable factfinder could accept [them]." Ramirez-Chilel, 289 F.3d at 749. Also, we must construe the facts in the light most favorable to the party that prevailed below (here, the government). United States v. Nunez, 455 F.3d 1223, 1225 (11th Cir. 2006). White focuses on the inconsistencies in the officers' testimony—namely, that Hargrove remembered the marijuana smell, while Latham did not recollect it. However, it is not inconceivable that two busy police officers testifying about an incident that occurred over a year prior remembered the existence of the smell of marijuana differently. It is also not unbelievable that the district court found that Hargrove's testimony about the marijuana smell was credible.

Accepting these findings of fact, we hold that both the brief detention of the vehicle and its occupants and the limited pat-down of White were reasonable. "Reasonable suspicion is determined from the totality of the circumstances, and from the collective knowledge of all the officers involved in the stop." Williams, 876 F.2d at 1524 (citing United States v. Cotton, 721 F.2d 350 (11th Cir.1983)); see also United States v. Arvizu, 534 U.S. 266, 273, 122 S. Ct. 744, 750, 151 L. Ed. 2d 740 (2002) (upholding detention when the totality of the circumstances created reasonable suspicion). Given that the smell of marijuana alone may provide a basis for reasonable suspicion for further investigation of possible criminal conduct, the initial stop was valid. Bryan v. Spillman, 217 Fed.Appx. 882, 885 (11th Cir.2007) (citing United States v. Garcia, 592 F.2d at 259 (5th Cir.1979) (holding that smell of marijuana emanating from vehicle established reasonable suspicion for search)). Additionally, even without considering Hargrove's testimony regarding marijuana, the totality of the circumstances indicates that the pat-down was reasonable.[2] "[T]he issue is whether a reasonably prudent man in the circumstances would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger." Terry, 392 U.S. at 27, 88 S.Ct. at 1883 (emphasis added). Here, several factors support the objective reasonableness of the search: Latham responded to a loud music complaint in a high-crime area late at night, see United States v. Gordon, 231 F.3d 750, 755-56 (11th Cir.2000) (noting an area's reputation for criminal activity is a factor that may be considered when determining whether reasonable suspicion exists.); the officers were outnumbered two-to-one; none of the occupants could provide identification; and Latham recognized White as someone who had given him trouble in the past. For these reasons, the limited pat-down search of White did not violate the Fourth Amendment, and we affirm the district court's denial of White's motion to suppress the gun.

B.

1.

White next argues that the district court erroneously denied his motion for a judgment of acquittal based on its conclusion that his previous domestic violence conviction was a predicate offense for purposes of § 922(g)(9). We review de novo a district court's denial of a motion for a

*1204

judgment of acquittal on sufficiency of evidence grounds. United States v. Yates, 438 F.3d 1307, 1311-12 (11th Cir. 2006) (en banc). We affirm the district court's decision, because White's underlying domestic violence offense is a predicate offense for purposes of § 922(g).

2.

Section 922(g)(9) makes it illegal for a person "convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence" to possess "any firearm or ammunition" that has been in or affects interstate commerce. Section 921(a)(33)(A) defines a "misdemeanor crime of violence" as an offense that "(1) has, as an element, the use [of force],[3] and (2) is committed by a person who has a specified domestic relationship with the victim." United States v. Hayes, ___ U.S. ___, 129 S. Ct. 1079, 1087, 172 L. Ed. 2d 816 (2009) (alteration in original).

While the government must establish that the underlying offense was committed against a person with a specified domestic relationship beyond a reasonable doubt, § 922(g)(9) does not require the predicate offense to have the specified domestic relationship as an element. Id. at 1082-83. Accord United States v. Chavez, 204 F.3d 1305, 1313-14 (11th Cir. 2000) (holding that while the domestic nature of the relationship must be a fact, it need not be an element of the prior offense); United States v. Griffith, 455 F.3d 1339, 1346 (11th Cir.2006) ("Therefore, as we held in Chavez, a domestic relationship must exist as part of the facts giving rise to the prior offense, but it need not be an element of that offense.").

To meet the definition of a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence," the offense must be committed by (1) "a current or former spouse," (2) "a person with whom the victim shares a child in common," (3) "a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited with the victim as a spouse, parent, or guardian," or (4) "by a person similarly situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim." § 921(a)(33)(a)(ii). At trial the government introduced a certified copy of the underlying conviction, which contained identical addresses of both the victim and White. In addition, White was convicted in a "domestic dispute" during which he pushed his girlfriend down and then tried to choke her. Finally, White concedes that a live-in girlfriend would meet the domestic relationship requirement of § 921(a)(33)(a). The victim was in a specified domestic relationship with White: she lived with him, was his "girlfriend," and the dispute was a "domestic" one. Several of our sister circuits have held that a "'live-in' girlfriend qualifies as a domestic relationship for purposes of [§§ 922 and 921(a)(33)(a)]." Buster v. United States, 447 F.3d 1130, 1133 (8th Cir. 2006). See also United States v. Shelton, 325 F.3d 553, 563 (5th Cir. 2003) (holding defendant's admission that he lived with his girlfriend was sufficient to qualify the relationship under §§ 922 and 921(a)(33)(a)); United States v. Denis, 297 F.3d 25, 31 (1st Cir. 2002) (assuming defendant's "'live-in girlfriend'" was similarly situated for purposes of §§ 922 and 921(a)(33)(a)). Viewing, as we must, the evidence in the light most favorable to the government, United States v. Garcia, 405 F.3d 1260, 1269 (11th Cir. 2005), there is sufficient evidence to

*1205

show that a "domestic relationship . . . exist[ed] as part of the facts giving rise to the prior offense" and that the trier of fact could have so found beyond a reasonable doubt. Griffith, 455 F.3d at 1346. Therefore, the district court did not err in determining that White's previous domestic violence conviction was a predicate offense for purposes of § 922(g).

C.

1.

White's last argument on appeal focuses on the constitutionality of § 922(g)(9). "We review de novo the legal question of whether a statute is constitutional." United States v. Tinoco, 304 F.3d 1088, 1099 (11th Cir. 2002) (citation omitted). Under our interpretation of Heller, 128 S.Ct. at 2783, we affirm his conviction.

2.

Although prior to Heller we upheld the constitutionality of § 922(g)(9), our decision did not rest on Second Amendment grounds. See Hiley v. Barrett, 155 F.3d 1276 (11th Cir.1998) (affirming the district court's decision upholding § 922(g)(9)'s constitutionality against commerce clause, equal protection, substantive due process, ex post facto, bill of attainder, and Tenth Amendment attacks). Today we limit our holding to deciding whether § 922(g)(9) may be properly included as a presumptively lawful "longstanding prohibition[] on the possession of firearms," a category of prohibitions the Supreme Court has implied survives Second Amendment scrutiny. Heller, 128 S.Ct. at 2816-17.

The Second Amendment provides as follows: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." U.S. Const. amend. II. Last year, in Heller, the Supreme Court interpreted this language to "guarantee [an] individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation." 128 S.Ct. at 2797. In Heller, the Court held that the District of Columbia's ban on handgun possession in the home by law-abiding citizens violated the Second Amendment. Id. In dictum, the Court qualified the right to bear arms: "[l]ike most rights, [it] is not unlimited." Id. at 2816. "[N]othing in [Heller] should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings. . . ." Id. at 2816-17. While the Court did not specifically mention § 922(g)(9), it included a footnote to clarify that the enumerated "presumptively lawful regulatory measures [are] only examples; [this] list does not purport to be exhaustive." Id. at 2817 n. 26.

We are called upon to decide whether the statutory prohibition against the possession of firearms by persons convicted of the misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, § 922(g)(9), warrants inclusion on Heller's list of presumptively lawful longstanding prohibitions. As the Supreme Court recently noted, § 922(g)(9) was passed in 1996 in response to Congress's concern that "[e]xisting felon-in-possession laws . . . were not keeping firearms out of the hands of domestic abusers, because 'many people who engage in serious spousal or child abuse ultimately are not charged with or convicted of felonies.'" Hayes, 129 S.Ct. at 1087 (quoting 142 Cong. Rec. 22985 (1996) (statement of Sen. Lautenberg)). Section 922(g)(9) was designed to "'close this dangerous loophole.'" Id. By way of example, the federal ban on felons-in-possession in § 922(g)(1)—a statute characterized in the Heller dictum as a presumptively lawful

*1206

longstanding prohibition—does not distinguish between the violent and non-violent offender. Thus, both an armed robber and tax evader lose their right to bear arms on conviction under § 922(g)(1). In contrast, a person convicted under § 922(g)(9) must have first acted violently toward a family member or domestic partner, a predicate demonstrated by his conviction for a misdemeanor crime of violence. Thus, although passed relatively recently, § 922(g)(9) addresses the thorny problem of domestic violence, a problem Congress recognized was not remedied by "longstanding" felon-in-possession laws. We see no reason to exclude § 922(g)(9) from the list of longstanding prohibitions on which Heller does not cast doubt. See In re United States, 578 F.3d 1195 (10th Cir. 2009) (order) ("Nothing suggests that the Heller dictum, which we must follow, is not inclusive of § 922(g)(9) involving those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence.").

We now explicitly hold that § 922(g)(9) is a presumptively lawful "longstanding prohibition[] on the possession of firearms." Heller, 128 S.Ct. at 2816-17. Given that Heller does not cast doubt on the constitutionality of § 922(g)(9), we affirm White's conviction.

AFFIRMED.

NOTES

[*] Honorable Eugene E. Siler, Jr., United States Circuit Judge for the Sixth Circuit, sitting by designation.

[1] Under Alabama Code § 13A-6-8A, harassment occurs "if, with intent to harass, annoy, or alarm another person, [he] . . . [s]trikes, shoves, kicks, or otherwise touches a person or subjects [him] to physical contact . . . [or][d]irects abusive or obscene language or makes an obscene gesture towards another person." Id. A person commits domestic violence in the third degree if he commits the crime of harassment under § 13A-6-8A and "the victim is a current or former spouse, parent, child, any person with whom the defendant has a child in common, a present or former household member, or a person who has or had a dating or engagement relationship with the defendant." § 13A-6-132.

[2] Thus, we decline to reach the question of whether the smell of marijuana, which Latham failed to articulate but the district court held was present, can be considered in determining the legality of the pat-down search.

[3] White does not argue that the Alabama statute does not contain the use of physical force as an element of the offense. Consequently, he has abandoned this argument on appeal. See United States v. Cunningham, 161 F.3d 1343, 1344 (11th Cir.1998) ("Because [defendant] has offered no argument on [an] issue on appeal, we find that he has abandoned it.").

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-18   11:36:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#327. To: nolu chan, Y'ALL (#323)

nolu chan (#311 ----- What your are saying is that the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, subject to federal laws and regulations

No. I said state constitutions protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, subject to constitutional federal laws (as per the Supremacy Clause). Unless enough people simply ignore federal law and start buying illegal machine guns on the black market. States Rights! Power to the people! Tenth amendment! ---- misterwhite

Nolu, what misterwrong replied is as close to 'winning' as you'll ever get.. --- ,And being the troll he is, --- Bobbie actually hopes that people go to jail for machine guns. -- He is actually an anti-gun nut who believes a State can ban ANY gun.

Just ask him...

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-18   11:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#328. To: nolu chan (#326)

MISTERWHITE'S BULLSHIT GOES TO COURT, Chapter 7

I said federal law trumps state law, though it looks like states may be able to ignore the Supremacy Clause if they want to.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-18   12:38:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#329. To: misterwhite (#328)

[misterwhite #328] I said federal law trumps state law

Actually, you said this:

[misterwhite #318] I said state constitutions protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, subject to constitutional federal laws (as per the Supremacy Clause).

As we all know, you have your own legal system which determines what federal laws are constitutional, the opinions of the courts of the United States notwithstanding.

[misterwhite #328] though it looks like states may be able to ignore the Supremacy Clause if they want to.

Cite the case in gun possession law to which your comment applies. Can you give a single example of a state ignoring Federal gun laws and openly permitting the sale and/or possession of illegal weapons?

In United States v. White, 593 F.3d 1199 (11th Cir., 2010), White was convicted of a crime in Alabama and his conviction, with a sentence of 46 months imprisonment, was upheld by the 11th Circuit.

Bureau of Prisons record:

LUDIVIC WHITE
Register Number: 10224-003
Age: 41
Race: Black
Sex: Male
Released On: 03/27/2014

I am sure Mister White will be pleased to know that the Alabama constitution protected his right to keep and bear arms. Exactly what protecting did it do? Perhaps the state persuaded the federal prison to issue Mister White short sleeve shirts so he could exercise his right to bare arms.

How does a state constitution protect against a federal prosecution?

How does a state constitution protect against a federal regulatory gun law, such as the Lautenberg Amendment?

If the states can ignore the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution if they want to, may they ignore any other clauses or provisions if they want to?

Can the federal government ignore any clauses or provisions of the Constitution, if it wants to? Can the federal government ignore the due process clause, if it wants to? The free speech clause? The Second Amendment RKBA clause?

Surely, if states can ignore the Supremacy Clause if they want to, states can ignore the whole Second Amendment if they want, can't they? One could make them all powerful in the hope that they act as a benevolent dictator to protect against federal encroachment upon gun rights. History suggests some state governments would prefer to eliminate gun rights altogether.

If the Second Amendment is absolute, and all have a right to bear any weapon, is the First Amendment equally absolute? Do all have a First Amendment right to make false utterances under oath (aka perjury), or in malicious gossip (aka libel or slander)? Are the perjury, libel and slander laws an unconstitutional encroachment upon the First Amendment right to free speech?

There is some precedent for ignoring a substance ban. Once upon a time, the men went off to war and women got the vote. Soon enough, the sale and transportation of alcoholic beverages was prohibited. The men returned from war and said, "you prohibited what? Speakeasys were born, then the 18th Amendment was repealed, Joe Kennedy got rich, and then they all lived happily ever after. Alas, it was an act of the people, not the states.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-18   17:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#330. To: misterwhite, tpaine (#328)

[tpaine #327] Bobbie actually hopes that people go to jail for machine guns. -- He is actually an anti-gun nut who believes a State can ban ANY gun.

Just ask him...

Oh hell, why not.

Are you actually an anti-gun nut who believes a State can ban ANY gun?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-18   17:40:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#331. To: nolu chan (#329)

Can you give a single example of a state ignoring Federal gun laws and openly permitting the sale and/or possession of illegal weapons?

Nope. But I can cite plenty of examples of states ignoring Federal marijuana laws and openly permitting the sale and/or possession of illegal drugs.

Is there a constitutional difference?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-18   17:47:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#332. To: nolu chan (#329)

How does a state constitution protect against a federal prosecution?
How does a state constitution protect against a federal regulatory gun law, such as the Lautenberg Amendment?

Federal law trumps state law ... or so they say.

"If the states can ignore the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution if they want to, may they ignore any other clauses or provisions if they want to?"

I don't see why not. It's a slippery slope when states start ignoring the U.S. Constitution.

"There is some precedent for ignoring a substance ban."

Ummm, no there isn't. You can change the law. Or pass a constitutional amendment. That's about it.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-18   17:53:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#333. To: nolu chan (#330)

Are you actually an anti-gun nut who believes a State can ban ANY gun?

Don't believe that asshole. He lies. I'm pro-gun and pro-constitution -- state and federal.

Prior to Heller, if a state constitution did not protect an individual RKBA, of course a state could ban the individual ownership of guns -- as long as it didn't interfere with maintaining a state militia. States ban certain products (eg., dangerous toys) for health and safety reasons, certainly they could ban guns for the same reason.

And if the majority of citizens of some state, acting through their state representatives, wanted to do that, who am I to tell them how to live?

But states would never get the votes.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-18   18:23:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#334. To: misterwrong strikes again, making a fool of himself. (#333)

States ban certain products (eg., dangerous toys) for health and safety reasons, certainly they could ban guns for the same reason. ----- And if the majority of citizens of some state, acting through their state representatives, wanted to do that, who am I to tell them how to live?

Just ask miisterwrong if he's an actually an anti-gun nut who believes a State can ban ANY gun. --- He'll tell you.

Trust me ---- I don't lie..

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-18   19:12:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#335. To: misterwhite (#331)

Can you give a single example of a state ignoring Federal gun laws and openly permitting the sale and/or possession of illegal weapons?

Nope. But I can cite plenty of examples of states ignoring Federal marijuana laws and openly permitting the sale and/or possession of illegal drugs.

Is there a constitutional difference?

The difference is in whether the Federal government wants to spend the effort and money to rigorously enforce marijuana laws. To the feds, individual possession and use of small amounts of marijuana is sort of like littering is to the city.

Some genius espoused a way to make the entire judicial system crash and burn. The method was for everyone to stop taking plea agreements and to require a trial in every criminal case. He correctly observed that there would not be enough courts and lawyers to process all those trials. All he needed was to start the movement. Who wants to go first?

What concerns the government more — a few million stoned out dopers, or a few million untrained people running about with M-16's? And if the people have easy access to fully automatic M-16's and AK-47's and the like, what will law enforcement officers be equipped with? Pot yields taxes and potted plants. Military weapons yield a military grade law enforcement problem. Neither the feds, nor any state, wants military weapons readily accessible to the public.

Ignoring the gun laws would bring immediate and severe government reaction. Which state wants to go first?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   11:09:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#336. To: misterwhite (#332)

How does a state constitution protect against a federal prosecution?

How does a state constitution protect against a federal regulatory gun law, such as the Lautenberg Amendment?

Federal law trumps state law ... or so they say.

They do say Federal law trumps state law, they being the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. Supreme Court, and all the inferior courts, federal and state.

Your comment does not answer the question.

You have repeatedly claimed that the 2nd Amendment does not protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, but that state constitutions do.

How do state constitutions perform this miracle of restraining an infringing federal government?

If state constitutions do not protect from an infringing federal government, what do they protect against? An infringing state or municipal government?

- - - - - - - - - -

"There is some precedent for ignoring a substance ban."

Ummm, no there isn't. You can change the law. Or pass a constitutional amendment. That's about it.

My comment before truncation was, "There is some precedent for ignoring a substance ban. Once upon a time, the men went off to war and women got the vote. Soon enough, the sale and transportation of alcoholic beverages was prohibited. The men returned from war and said, "you prohibited what? Speakeasys were born, then the 18th Amendment was repealed, Joe Kennedy got rich, and then they all lived happily ever after. Alas, it was an act of the people, not the states."

You think the 18th Amendment was not widely ignored?

The mob got rich supplying what the people wanted and were willing to pay for.

It was not legal, but the people did it in great numbers. The fact of it is notorious.

"If the states can ignore the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution if they want to, may they ignore any other clauses or provisions if they want to?"

I don't see why not. It's a slippery slope when states start ignoring the U.S. Constitution.

So you advocate for entering upon a slippery slope which could lead to all of the Constitution being ignored. Why, dagnabbit, the gubmint could ignore the 2nd Amendment and take all your guns away.

I guess tpaine may have had a point.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   11:10:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#337. To: misterwhite (#333)

Are you actually an anti-gun nut who believes a State can ban ANY gun?

[misterwhite #333] Don't believe that asshole. He lies. I'm pro-gun and pro-constitution -- state and federal.

[misterwhite #2]

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens. It protects state militias and the arms of state militia members from federal infringement. What are those arms? They are the arms selected by the state militia as necessary for the protection of the state. Round peg. Round hole.

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.

You have repeatly declared Heller not to be the law, and have repeatedly stated that the 2nd Amendment does not protect an individual's right to keep and bear arms. You have stated that if a state constitution allows it, cities and towns can enact and enforce gun bans.

[misterwhite #46]

Seems to me the only reason you like the Heller decision is because it supports your view. I guess those justices never heard of stare decisis.

[misterwhite #48]

When you examine it (as I have) it only protected the right for those eligible to participate in a state militia. What a coincidence, huh? And the second amendment references a militia! Another coincidence!

Yet you expect me to believe it applies to all individuals.

The fundamental individual right of the people belongs to the people, not the militia.

[misterwhite #65]

Don't bother citing Heller. I told you the court got it wrong.

[misterwhite #66]

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

I never said they didn't have the right. They do. Just that the second amendment doesn't protect it.

[misterwhite #79]

True. And before the Bill of Rights was selectively incorporated, states banned speech, restricted the press, searched without a warrant, and even had their own state-sanctioned religion.

"That is what you blather you want to return to?"

You bet!

You have a strange way of expressing your "pro-constitution" views.

[misterwhite #81]

Meaning, the second amendment has nothing to do with protecting some handgun for self-defense in the home. It's a restriction on the federal government to leave the state militias (and their weapons) alone.

Note: The Federal government OWNS all of the National Guard weapons, not the State. The National Guard weapons are provided by the Federal governent and remain the property of the Federal government. In case of a war, or threatened war, the Federal government can requisition all of its weapons back for Federal use as it sees fit.

[misterwhite #85]

I'm saying the right is NOT protected by the second amendment and IS protected by state constitutions.

[misterwhite #100]

You openly advocate for municipalities having the power to take away your claimed gun rights, and your guns."

Only if the state constitution allows it and the people want it.

The American people, in their great wisdom, added a 2nd Amendment to their Constitution. Cities and towns are not empowered to disarm their inhabitants. If cities and towns wanted it, and the State constitution allowed it, could cities and towns either permit or ban all abortions?

The Illinois case in point in point is Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 863 (1983). Quilici involved Ordinance No. 81-11. It was held to not violate the 2nd Amendment because the Amendment had not then been incorporated into the 14th Amendment and therefore did not then apply to the states. You voiced your support for a time when one's 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms could be taken away by a village council adopting a village ordinance.

McDonald v. City of Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010) incorporated the 2nd Amendment into the 14th Amendment and held that the 2nd Amendment was fully enforceable against the states. It struck down all laws such as Village of Morton Grove, Ilinois Ordinance No. 81-11 and the Chicago and Oak Park ban on citizen possession of handguns.

While you would prefer to cling to a time when the majority vote of a village council could take away the 2nd Amendment fundamental individual right of the people to keep and bear arms, that is now blessedly unconstitutional. If a state constitutional provision authorizes a municipality to ban handgun possession, such provision of the state constitution is null and void, as are any municipal ordinances flowing from such provision.

The American system was not set up as a democracy where a majority decides for all which rights apply. By its design, it was meant to protect the rights of the minority. The right to free speech is not the right to say what meets with majority approval, but to say that which is greeted with overwhelming disapproval.

Illinois, Chicago, Oak Park, and Morton Grove are sterling examples of how states do not protect the 2nd Amendment fundamental individual right of people to keep and bear arms.

[misterwhite #318]

I said state constitutions protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, subject to constitutional federal laws (as per the Supremacy Clause).

Unless enough people simply ignore federal law and start buying illegal machine guns on the black market.

States Rights! Power to the people! Tenth amendment!

As we all know, and as this thread documents, what you accept as constitutional laws is determined by your own personal legal system, rejecting the opinions of the U.S. Supreme Court and the other Federal courts.

[misterwhite #328]

I said federal law trumps state law, though it looks like states may be able to ignore the Supremacy Clause if they want to.

And you hold that it looks like states may be able to ignore the Supremacy Clause if they want to.

Prior to Heller, if a state constitution did not protect an individual RKBA, of course a state could ban the individual ownership of guns -- as long as it didn't interfere with maintaining a state militia.

"Of course," you say, the state (and even towns and villages) had the lawfully delegated power to take away the fundamental individual right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Also note yet again, even after Heller (2008), the 2nd Amendment had not been incorporated into the 14th Amendment and could not be enforced against the states.

It was McDonald v. City of Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010) which incorporated the 2nd Amendment into the 14th Amendment and held that the 2nd Amendment was fully enforceable against the states.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   11:22:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#338. To: nolu chan (#335)

The difference is in whether the Federal government wants to spend the effort and money to rigorously enforce marijuana laws.

Constitutionality is defined as whether or not the Federal government wants to spend the effort and money to rigorously enforce the laws? If you were taking a test on the U.S. Constitution, I would not put that down as an answer.

The federal government only needs to prosecute the legislators of one state for sedition and the rest will fall in line.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   12:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#339. To: nolu chan (#336)

How do state constitutions perform this miracle of restraining an infringing federal government?

Where does the federal government get the power to infringe the gun rights of citizens? The answer is, they don't have that power. Meaning, the states never thought they'd have to deal with it.

The federal government initially seized that power using the Commerce Clause and furthered their control with the Heller decision.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   13:06:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#340. To: nolu chan (#337)

You have a strange way of expressing your "pro-constitution" views.

My "views" are consistent with the language and the intent of the constitutions I cited.

"Of course," you say, the state (and even towns and villages) had the lawfully delegated power to take away the fundamental individual right of the people to keep and bear arms."

If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

"As we all know, and as this thread documents, what you accept as constitutional laws is determined by your own personal legal system, rejecting the opinions of the U.S. Supreme Court and the other Federal courts."

What I accept as constitutional laws is determined by the language and original intent of the constitution. Sometimes the courts get it wrong. This is one of them.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   13:17:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#341. To: nolu chan (#337)

The fundamental individual right of the people belongs to the people, not the militia.

The fundamental individual right of the people protected by the second amendment belongs to the people of the militia. That's according to the clear language of the second amendment as interpreted for over 200 years.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   13:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#342. To: misterwhite (#338)

Constitutionality is defined as whether or not the Federal government wants to spend the effort and money to rigorously enforce the laws?

I did not say that. If you think that, it is your personal problem. I am not interested in your personal problems.

Murder is a crime and mopery is a crime. When apprehended, one is more likely to result in prosecution than the other.

The federal government only needs to prosecute the legislators of one state for sedition and the rest will fall in line.

They would probably die from laughing.

Sedition is illegal action tending to cause the disruption and overthrow of the government.

Who is trying to overthrow the government, other than yourself?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:33:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#343. To: misterwhite (#339)

Where does the federal government get the power to infringe the gun rights of citizens? The answer is, they don't have that power.

You claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

Now you claim the states never thought they would have to deal with the matter.

The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

I know you don't have an answer, and will never admit it, but I enjoy reading your word salad attempts to change the question to anything but how a state constitution protects the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

State constitutions only apply to the state.

The only way to legally contest a federal law is in federal court.

Meaning, the states never thought they'd have to deal with it.

As for the states never having thought of the Federal government as a usurper of rights, that is just more bullshit. It was adddressed and published in Federalist 46 by James Madison.

Madison, Federalist 46, re the Militia

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:34:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#344. To: misterwhite (#340)

My "views" are consistent with the language and the intent of the constitutions I cited.

The United States has one Constitution. All state constitutions must conform to it.

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

"Of course," you say, the state (and even towns and villages) had the lawfully delegated power to take away the fundamental individual right of the people to keep and bear arms."

If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

Only in bizarro world.

McDonald, Syllabus at 561 U.S. 744

The Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms fully applicable to the States.

The Second Amendment protects the fundamental right to keep and bear arms in every state and territory of the union, and in the District of Columbia. Observance of the right is not optional for the states or municipalities.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”). Explaining that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at 628–629 (some internal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at 628 (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” of self-defense); id., at 629 (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at 630.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:35:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#345. To: misterwhite (#341)

The fundamental individual right of the people belongs to the people, not the militia.

The fundamental individual right of the people protected by the second amendment belongs to the people of the militia. That's according to the clear language of the second amendment as interpreted for over 200 years.

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

That is according to the clear language of the U.S. Supreme Court. Self-defense was the central component of the right itself.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-19   16:36:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#346. To: nolu chan (#342)

Murder is a crime and mopery is a crime.

Murder and mopery are on opposite ends of the crime spectrum.

I'm talking about a state legalizing a recreational drug in violation of federal law vs. a state legalizing the ownership of a weapon banned under federal law.

I don't see a constitutional difference. They both violate the Supremacy Clause.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#347. To: nolu chan (#342)

"Sedition is illegal action tending to cause the disruption and overthrow of the government."

Sedition is overt conduct … that tends toward insurrection against the established order (and) often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent towards, or resistance against lawful authority.

Arrest the legislators, give them a trial, and hang 'em high. That should put an end to the bullshit.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:08:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#348. To: nolu chan (#343)

You claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

I claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental an individual right to keep and bear arms. The individual right to keep and bear arms is not a fundamental right.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:12:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#349. To: nolu chan (#343)

Now you claim the states never thought they would have to deal with the matter.

Correct. They never envisioned the federal government banning weapons under the Commerce Clause. If a state wanted certain weapons banned, they would ban them.

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Well, that IS the question. But let's say the federal government did not act on guns. Then each state would decide, under their state constitution, how they would handle the issue -- as they did for 200 years.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:28:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#350. To: nolu chan (#344)

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

I cited the U.S. Constitution, the Alabama state constitution, and provided a link to the constitutions of all 50 states.

"If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it. Only in bizarro world."

I'm referring to pre-Heller/McDonald. The way it was for 200 years. The way the U.S. Constitution was written and interpreted by all courts through the centuries.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:34:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#351. To: nolu chan (#345)

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

Yes it was. And I reject their activist opinion for all the reasons I cited.

Your argument consists of simply repeating "It's the law" and citing, ad nauseum, excerpts from the rulings.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:40:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#352. To: nolu chan (#345)

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions.

The second amendment refers to the security of a free State. Most state constitutions read "that every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state".

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-19   17:47:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#353. To: misterwrong strikes again, making a fool of himself. --- 101 (#352)

nolu chan (#345) ---- "Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions. ---- mrwrong

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself." ---- Exemplified by the words of the document..

This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot.

tpaine  posted on  2018-06-19   18:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#354. To: tpaine (#353)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

Don’t you proudly live in Communist North Kookifornia?

lol

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-06-19   21:46:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#355. To: misterwhite (#346)

Murder and mopery are on opposite ends of the crime spectrum.

Mopery is measured on the stupidity spectrum. Malicious mopery, committed against a woman on Sunday, is especially heinous (and stupid).

I'm talking about a state legalizing a recreational drug in violation of federal law vs. a state legalizing the ownership of a weapon banned under federal law.

A state may decriminalize marijuana possession under state law. They simply repeal any state law that made it a state crime.

No state can make marijuana possession legal. A state law saying marijuana possession is legal conflicts with federal law and is null and void, and of no effect. A transgressor is still subject to federal prosecution.

If you register or acquire a state permit or license to purchase marijuana, you forfeit your right to possess a gun. You piss away your Second Amendment fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms.

A state law saying automatic weapon possession was legal in the state would be null and void, and of no effect.

I don't see a constitutional difference. They both violate the Supremacy Clause.

Walk into the federal courthouse carrying a doobie and an M-16 and you will learn the difference. One is a minor misdemeanor and the other is a major felony. Congress has given the Department of Justice no funding to prosecute marijuana possession cases, so you won't face federal prosecution for the doobie unless they get funding.

Neither violates the Supremacy Clause. You misconstrue the Supremacy Clause just as you misconstrue the 2nd Amendment. The Supremacy Clause is a statement of which law prevails, federal or state.

States which merely decriminalize marijuana possession under state law do not violate the Supremacy Clause. Just because the federal government enacts a law making marijuana possession unlawful does not mean that a state must have such a law. The nonexistence of such a state law does not make marijuana possession lawful in the state, it just makes it non-prosecutable under state law.

A state law which purports that small amount marijuana possession is legal in the state does not violate the Supremacy Clause. It violates the applicable Federal law.

States may similarly repeal all state gun control laws without violating the Supremacy Clause. That does not make the Federal law any less applicable.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:04:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#356. To: misterwhite (#347)

Sedition is overt conduct … that tends toward insurrection against the established order (and) often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent towards, or resistance against lawful authority.

Arrest the legislators, give them a trial, and hang 'em high. That should put an end to the bullshit.

It is your definition of sedition, and your allusion to it being a capital crime, which are bullshit.

For a criminal conviction, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt of the commission of a violation of the actual criminal statute. That puts an end to your bullshit.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2383/

2016 US Code
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

18 U.S.C. § 2383 (2016)

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2384/

2016 US Code
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

18 U.S.C. § 2384 (2016)

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-18/part-i/chapter-115/sec.-2385/

Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 115 - Treason, Sedition, and Subversive Activities

Sec. 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government

18 U.S.C. § 2385 (2016)

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms "organizes" and "organize", with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:04:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#357. To: misterwhite (#348)

I claim that state constitutions protect the fundamental an individual right to keep and bear arms. The individual right to keep and bear arms is not a fundamental right.

Who gives a shit what you claim? You repetitively claim all nature of silly bullshit. The Constitution has not yet been amended to empower you to take over the functions of the Judicial Branch.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in Heller and McDonald that the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and an individual right.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 579-80:

1. Operative Clause.

a. “Right of the People.” The first salient feature of the operative clause is that it codifies a “right of the people.” The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause. The Ninth Amendment uses very similar terminology (“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people”). All three of these instances unambiguously refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights that may be exercised only through participation in some corporate body.

Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people” in a context other than “rights”—the famous preamble (“We the people”), §2 of Article I (providing that “the people” will choose members of the House), and the Tenth Amendment (providing that those powers not given the Federal Government remain with “the States” or “the people”). Those provisions arguably refer to “the people” acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right.

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause.

McDonald Syllabus at 561 U.S. 744: (boldface added)

The Court eventually moved in the direction advocated by Justice Black, by adopting a theory of selective incorporation by which the Due Process Clause incorporates particular rights contained in the first eight Amendments. See, e. g., Gideon v. Wainwright, 372 U. S. 335, 341. These decisions abandoned three of the characteristics of the earlier period. The Court clarified that the governing standard is whether a particular Bill of Rights protection is fundamental to our Nation’s particular scheme of ordered liberty and system of justice. Duncan, supra, at 149, n. 14. The Court eventually held that almost all of the Bill of Rights’ guarantees met the requirements for protection under the Due Process Clause.

A right protected by the Bill of Rights, only qualifies for selective incorporation via the Due Process Clause if it is determined to be fundamental. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right. It was also clearly held to be an individual right.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

III

With this framework in mind, we now turn directly to the question whether the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is incorporated in the concept of due process. In answering that question, as just explained, we must decide whether the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty, Duncan, 391 U. S., at 149, or as we have said in a related context, whether this right is “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition,” Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 721 (1997) (internal quotation marks omitted).

A

Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the answer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).

Explaining that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at 628–629 (some internal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at 628 (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” of self-defense); id., at 629 (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at 630.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 768: (boldface added)

The right to keep and bear arms was considered no less fundamental by those who drafted and ratified the Bill of Rights.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 787: (boldface added)

In Heller, we recognized that the codification of this right was prompted by fear that the Federal Government would disarm and thus disable the militias, but we rejected the suggestion that the right was valued only as a means of preserving the militias. 554 U. S., at 598–599. On the contrary, we stressed that the right was also valued because the possession of firearms was thought to be essential for self-defense. As we put it, self-defense was “the central component of the right itself.”

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:08:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: misterwhite (#349)

"The question is not whether some federal act is infringement, but how does a state constitution protect the fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms."

Well, that IS the question.

[misterwhite #85]

I'm saying the right is NOT protected by the second amendment and IS protected by state constitutions.

You're the one who said the RKBA is not protected by the 2nd Amendment, but is protected by state constitutions.

When asked how state constitutions perform this miracle, you say that is the question.

Apparently you never had, and still do not have, a clue as to how your state constitutions protect the 2nd Amendment RKBA. In other words, you have been caught bullshitting again.

The question is why did you claim that the RKBA is not protected by the Seconnd Amendment, but is protected by state constitutions, if your are unable to state how state constitutions accomplish this miracle.

But let's say the federal government did not act on guns. Then each state would decide, under their state constitution, how they would handle the issue -- as they did for 200 years.

Let's say the Federal government DID act on guns, because IT DID.

A Federal law is the Supreme Law of the land and strikes down all conflicting state law as null and void, and of no effect, let's not talk about your wet dreams.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:08:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#359. To: misterwhite (#350)

How many currently effective constitutions did you cite?

I cited the U.S. Constitution, the Alabama state constitution, and provided a link to the constitutions of all 50 states.

So the correct answer to my question is that you cited ONE CURRENTLY EFFECTIVE CONSTITUTION. That would be the U.S. Constitution.

You cited the first Alabama constitution of 1819 which has now passed through multiple editions. Other constitutions were in 1865, 1867, 1875, and 1901.

The current constitution at section 256 states:

SECTION 256

Duty of legislature to establish and maintain public school system; apportionment of public school fund; separate schools for white and colored children.

The legislature shall establish, organize, and maintain a liberal system of public schools throughout the state for the benefit of the children thereof between the ages of seven and twenty-one years. The public school fund shall be apportioned to the several counties in proportion to the number of school children of school age therein, and shall be so apportioned to the schools in the districts or townships in the counties as to provide, as nearly as practicable, school terms of equal duration in such school districts or townships. Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race.

Apparently you did not reject the ruling of the U.S. Supreme Court in Brown v. Topeka Board of Education, and permitted the schools to be desegregated to comply with the Court ruling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_in_the_Schoolhouse_Door

The Stand in the Schoolhouse Door took place at Foster Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963. George Wallace, the Democratic Governor of Alabama, in a symbolic attempt to keep his inaugural promise of "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" and stop the desegregation of schools, stood at the door of the auditorium to try to block the entry of two African American students, Vivian Malone and James Hood.

In response, President John F. Kennedy issued Executive Order 11111, which federalized the Alabama National Guard, and Guard General Henry Graham then commanded Wallace to step aside, saying, "Sir, it is my sad duty to ask you to step aside under the orders of the President of the United States." Wallace then spoke further, but eventually moved, and Malone and Hood completed their registration.

A link identifies no specific information and provides nothing to support any brain droppings you may have been muttering about.

"If the state does not protect the right they may infringe it.

Only in bizarro world."

I'm referring to pre-Heller/McDonald. The way it was for 200 years. The way the U.S. Constitution was written and interpreted by all courts through the centuries.

Your argument is insane bullshit.

We are not living in pre-Heller and McDonald.

You may even be surprised to learn we are not living in pre-Plessy v. Ferguson or pre-Brown v. Topeka Board of Education.

We are not even discussing your weird notions about what the law used to be.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#360. To: misterwhite (#351)

Recycling this bullshit over and over does not change the fact that it was emphatically and explicitly REJECTED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT in Heller and McDonald.

Yes it was. And I reject their activist opinion for all the reasons I cited.

And nobody gives a shit it you reject the rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. Their interpretations of the Constitution in Heller and McDonald are the supreme law of the land, and all inconsistent laws were struck down as null and void, and of no effect.

Your argument consists of simply repeating "It's the law" and citing, ad nauseum, excerpts from the rulings.

I cite and provide the actual law that prevails in this country. You blather your personal bullshit which, if blathered in court, gets people sent to prison as amply demonstrated by the court opinions I provided where real people tried to argue your insane bullshit.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:10:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#361. To: misterwhite (#352)

"Self-defense was the central component of the right itself."

Not in the second amendment. It was in state constitutions.

You are still full of shit.

McDonald at 561 U.S. 767: (boldface added)

Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day, and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at 599; see also id., at 628 (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”).

The second amendment refers to the security of a free State. Most state constitutions read "that every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state".

The 2nd Amendment refers to the security of a free state in the prefacing clause, not in the operative clause.

Pursuant to Heller and McDonald, individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right, and the right itself is a fundamental individual right. That is the supreme law of the land.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:11:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: tpaine (#353)

This thread is proof positive that you cannot reason with a wrong-headed idiot.

This thread, with the assistance of a wrong-headed idiot, is a one-stop shopping center with sources to document the falsity and vacuity of his arguments. All it needs is a bookmark for future use.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:14:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: GrandIsland, tpaine (#354)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

They cannot do it without congressional consent, which may be difficult to obtain as it would give current California six senators.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-20   11:16:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: nolu chan, misterwhite (#362)

Can you kindly abbreviate the crux of this ongoing debate?

At its core was it Feral vs. State authoritah vis a vis gun "rights" and limitations on certain arms? Thanks...

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   11:21:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: GrandIsland, tpaine (#354)

I see your libtarded socialist kookifornia shithole is planning on splitting in 3 parts. Communist North Kookifornia, Socialist Kookifornia and RINO Southern Mexifornia.

I don't have a problem with it...other than the proposal conveniently making Frisco and Oakland part of "Northern" CA, polluting the north.

Liberator  posted on  2018-06-20   11:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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