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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 44278
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 282.

#1. To: Deckard (#0)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/opinion.html

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/boundvolumes/554bv.pdf

District of Columbia v Heller, 554 US 570 (2008)

From Heller at 581:

Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret their object: “Arms.” The 18th-century meaning is no different from the meaning today. The 1773 edition of Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.” 1 Dictionary of the English Language 107 (4th ed.) (hereinafter Johnson). Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary defined “arms” as “any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.” 1 A New and Complete Law Dictionary (1771); see also N. Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language (1828) (reprinted 1989) (hereinafter Webster) (similar).

Heller at 582:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

Heller at 584:

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford). When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, Justice Ginsburg wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment … indicate[s]: ‘wear, bear, or carry … upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose … of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion) (quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We think that Justice Ginsburg accurately captured the natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes participation in a structured military organization.

Heller at 620:

We described the right protected by the Second Amendment as “ ‘bearing arms for a lawful purpose’ ”

Heller at 624-25:

“In the colonial and revolutionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)). Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns. That accords with the historical understanding of the scope of the right, see Part III, infra.

We conclude that nothing in our precedents forecloses our adoption of the original understanding of the Second Amendment.

Heller at 626:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).

Heller at 627-28:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6 Ed.

Arms. Anything that a man wears for his defense, or takes in his hands as a weapon.

The "right to keep and bear arms" existed in the colonies, was brought forth into the states before the union, and was protected by the 2nd Amendment. The right which existed in the colonies came from the English common law. The Framers saw no need to explain to themselves what that right to keep and bear arms was.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

Heller at 593-95:

By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone 136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140; see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities concurred. See G. Sharp, Tracts, Concerning the Ancient and Only True Legal Means of National Defence, by a Free Militia 17–18, 27 (3d ed. 1782); 2 J. de Lolme, The Rise and Progress of the English Constitution 886–887 (1784) (A. Stephens ed. 1838); W. Blizard, Desultory Reflections on Police 59–60 (1785). Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.

And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists. In the tumultuous decades of the 1760’s and 1770’s, the Crown began to disarm the inhabitants of the most rebellious areas. That provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms. A New York article of April 1769 said that “[i]t is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 79 (O. Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g., Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769, in 1 The Writings of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They understood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.” 1 Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) (hereinafter Tucker’s Blackstone). See also W. Duer, Outlines of the Constitutional Jurisprudence of the United States 31–32 (1833).

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations upon the individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

Heller at 626-28:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e. g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e. g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16 Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-09   13:00:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: nolu chan (#1) (Edited)

"... by restricting the amendment to common arms."

They had to ... if they were going to rule that the second amendment protected an individual right. You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

As I said at the time, this is what happens when trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You destroy the square peg.

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens. It protects state militias and the arms of state militia members from federal infringement. What are those arms? They are the arms selected by the state militia as necessary for the protection of the state. Round peg. Round hole.

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-09   14:45:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: misterwhite, nolu chan (#2)

You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

As I said at the time, this is what happens when trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You destroy the square peg.

Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xht...ort&fq=true&num=5&hl=true

People out there have this strong hatred for the Second Amendment, and to deliberately dismantle the meaning of "militia" and who they are comprised of, for the sole purpose of depriving the ordinary citizen that lawful Right which has long been recognized in our law books as a personal right. The statute I pointed out is recognized as part of the positive law already in our United States Codes in the Table of Contents as the original positive law. State Constitutions must be concomitant with the original federal constitution, chiefly the Bill of Rights. The purpose of invoking boiler plate case law in this matter is to confuse the issue thus clouding what the reasonable intent of the Second Amendment was intended to be for. The statute I referenced (Title 10 USC. Sec 311 (b) (2) makes it quite clear who the militia are. Unlike the professional standing army, the Class (b) (2) militia is comprised of those like you and me. The professional standing army is controlled by the federal government which includes your State Governors who use their own armies to be deployed when necessary to establish the peace. Contrary to this, We as the general member of the public, represent that second class of being the unprofessional army in that the purpose of having those cannons, tanks, SAMs, and flamethrowers, is to maintain these tools in a safe manner and teach our children about them. Our militia serves for the purpose of protecting not our homeland and overseas but to protect our home and personal property from professional standing armies being used by rogue governments who desire to override our rights as a free people.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-09   16:39:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: goldilucky (#4)

Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly

Title 10 Section 311 Part(b)2 refers to the "unorganized militia" of a state. Currently, 21 States have State Defense Forces (also called State Military, State Guards, or State Military Reserves), authorized by state and federal law and under the command of the governor of each state.

State Defense Forces are distinct from their state's National Guard in that they cannot become federal entities.

I am not aware that any State Defense Force allows their personnel to own SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:43:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite, goldilucky (#23)

I am not aware that any State Defense Force allows their personnel to own SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

I am unaware of any military base that allows active duty military living on base to have their own private SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

Except for authorized persons with authorized weapons, on base personnel are not authorized to be armed, concealed carry or otherwise. One cannot transport their private gun onto a base in their vehicle either.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   15:04:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: nolu chan (#30)

I believe he's thinking private paramilitary groups like the Michigan Militia (Wolverines) qualify as the "unorganized militia" and are protected by the second amendment.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   15:19:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: misterwhite (#32)

I believe he's thinking private paramilitary groups like the Michigan Militia (Wolverines) qualify as the "unorganized militia" and are protected by the second amendment.

The 2nd Amendment protects the RKBA of individuals and is not restricted to militia or any other group. Individuals in the Wolverines are protected by the 2nd Amendment. However, the RKBA has never protected some imaginary right to bear RPGs, SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers. That was not the right enjoyed under English common law by the colonists, and is not the right they brought forward with them into the United States.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   21:18:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: nolu chan (#39)

"The 2nd Amendment protects the RKBA of individuals and is not restricted to militia or any other group."

That's how the Heller court ruled, yes. They were wrong, but that's their ruling.

"However, the RKBA has never protected some imaginary right to bear RPGs, SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers."

Not even for the well-regulated and organized State militias? I seem to recall that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16 calls for "organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia."

We're going to have a dificult time protecting ourselves from an out-of-control Federal government with just the handguns protected by Heller.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-12   10:36:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: misterwhite (#41)

That's how the Heller court ruled, yes. They were wrong, but that's their ruling.

The Supreme court determines the law. You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not change the law.

Individuals in and out of the militia have the rights to keep and bear arms brought forward by the colonists into America, and the right is protected by the 2nd Amendment. The ancient right came from English common law and predates the Constitution.

Not even for the well-regulated and organized State militias? I seem to recall that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16 calls for "organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia."

What arms meant in 1792 is amply described below. It does not expand to any weapon imaginable. The right was not defined in the Constitution because it was well-defined in English common law.

The Militia Act of May 8, 1792 (repealed and replaced 1795).

SECOND CONGRESS. Sess. I. Ch. 33. 1792.

1 Stat. 271

May 8, 1792.

Chap. XXXIII.—An Act more effectually to provide for the National Defence by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.(a)

Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That and by whom each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective states, resident therein, who is or shall be of the age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia by the captain or commanding officer of the company, within whose bounds such citi­zen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this act. And it shall at all times hereafter be the duty of every such cap­tain or commanding officer of a company to enrol every such citizen, as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of eighteen years, or being of the age of eighteen years and under the age of forty-five years (except as before excepted) shall come to re­side within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrolment, by a proper non-commissioned officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch with a box therein to contain not less than twenty-four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cart­ridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball: or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear, so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise, or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger and espontoon, and that from and after five years from the passing of this act, all muskets for arming the militia as herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for

__________

(a) The acts for the establishment of an uniform system for the government of the militia, are: An act more effectually to provide for the national defence by establishing an uniform militia throughout the United States, May 8, 1792, chap. 33; an act providing arms for the militia throughout the United States. July 6, 1798, chap. 65; an act in addition to an act entitled, “An act more effectually to provide for the national defence, by establishing an uniform militia throughout the United States,” March 2, 1803, chap. 15; an act more effectually to provide for the organizing of the militia of the District of Columbia, March 3, 1803, chap. 20; an act establishing rules and articles for the government of the armies of the United States, April 10, 1806, chap. 20; an act in addition to the act entitled, “An act to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and to repeal the act now in force for those purposes,” April 18. 1814, chap. 82; an act concerning field officers of the militia, April 20, 1816, chap. 64; an act to establish an uniform mode of discipline and field exercise for the militia of the United States, May 12, 1820, chap. 96; an act to reduce and fix the military peace establishment of the United States, March 2, 1821, chap. 12, sec. 14.

272

SECOND CONGRESS. Sess. I. Ch. 33. 1792.

balls of the eighteenth part of a pound. And every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, dis­tresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

[snip]

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-14   15:21:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: nolu chan (#45)

That every citizen so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock

Do you know why they had to get a musket? Because they didn't have one. They had rifles for hunting because smoothbore muskets were not accurate.

Now, muskets were fine for volley fire used by the militia, they were cheap, and they were fast reloading. But above the fireplace in the home, proudly displayed, was an expensive rifle.

So what is it? Does the second amendment protect arms in common use at the time (rifles) or does it protect the arms used by the militia (muskets)?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-14   16:04:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: misterwhite (#51)

So what is it? Does the second amendment protect arms in common use at the time (rifles) or does it protect the arms used by the militia (muskets)?

The 2nd Amdt protects the ancient right to keep and bear arms. It does not protect and alleged right to keep Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs). It protects the right to keep and bear arms which are lawful to possess.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-14   22:12:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: nolu chan (#54)

The 2nd Amdt protects the ancient right to keep and bear arms ...

... for Militia members only. Which it why it mentions a Militia.

Prior to the ratification of the Bill of Rights, at least 4 of the 13 states had state constitutions which protected the individual right of their citizens to keep and bear arms. But their "second amendment" language used the phrase, "... the right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State ..."

"Citizens", not "the people". In defense of themselves. Your individual right to keep and bear arms is, and has always been, protected by your state constitution. Which is why gun laws vary from state to state.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-15   10:05:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: misterwhite (#62)

The 2nd Amdt protects the ancient right to keep and bear arms ...

... for Militia members only. Which it why it mentions a Militia.

Hosreshit repeated is still horseshit.

District of Columbia v. Heller, S. Ct. 26 June 2008, Syllabus:

Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2-53.

(a) The Amendment's prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause's text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2-22.

- - - - - - - - - -

District of Columbia v Heller, S. Ct. (2008)

From Heller at 581:

Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret their object: “Arms.” The 18th-century meaning is no different from the meaning today. The 1773 edition of Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.” 1 Dictionary of the English Language 107 (4th ed.) (hereinafter Johnson). Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary defined “arms” as “any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.” 1 A New and Complete Law Dictionary (1771); see also N. Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language (1828) (reprinted 1989) (hereinafter Webster) (similar).

Heller at 582:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

Heller at 584:

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford). When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, Justice Ginsburg wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment … indicate[s]: ‘wear, bear, or carry … upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose … of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion) (quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We think that Justice Ginsburg accurately captured the natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes participation in a structured military organization.

Heller at 620:

We described the right protected by the Second Amendment as “ ‘bearing arms for a lawful purpose’ ”

Heller at 624-25:

“In the colonial and revolutionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)). Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns. That accords with the historical understanding of the scope of the right, see Part III, infra.

We conclude that nothing in our precedents forecloses our adoption of the original understanding of the Second Amendment.

Heller at 626:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).

Heller at 627-28:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6 Ed.

Arms. Anything that a man wears for his defense, or takes in his hands as a weapon.

The "right to keep and bear arms" existed in the colonies, was brought forth into the states before the union, and was protected by the 2nd Amendment. The right which existed in the colonies came from the English common law. The Framers saw no need to explain to themselves what that right to keep and bear arms was.

Heller at 593-95:

By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone 136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140; see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities concurred. See G. Sharp, Tracts, Concerning the Ancient and Only True Legal Means of National Defence, by a Free Militia 17–18, 27 (3d ed. 1782); 2 J. de Lolme, The Rise and Progress of the English Constitution 886–887 (1784) (A. Stephens ed. 1838); W. Blizard, Desultory Reflections on Police 59–60 (1785). Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.

And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists. In the tumultuous decades of the 1760’s and 1770’s, the Crown began to disarm the inhabitants of the most rebellious areas. That provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms. A New York article of April 1769 said that “[i]t is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 79 (O. Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g., Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769, in 1 The Writings of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They understood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.” 1 Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) (hereinafter Tucker’s Blackstone). See also W. Duer, Outlines of the Constitutional Jurisprudence of the United States 31–32 (1833).

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations upon the individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

Heller at 626-28:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e. g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e. g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16 Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-15   13:08:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: nolu chan (#64)

Don't bother citing Heller. I told you the court got it wrong.

And for future reference, don't cite Roe v Wade, Kelo, or Obamacare (the penalty is a tax). They got it wrong there, too.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-15   15:12:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: misterwhite (#65)

[misterwhite #65] Don't bother citing Heller. I told you the court got it wrong.

You got it wrong and Heller (and McDonald) are current Supreme Court precedent.

By contrast you want to keeep digging up the corpses of Cruickshank, Presser and Miller, three very old cases that you happen to like.

I will continue to cite and quote current Supreme Court precedent and you are welcome to dig up the corpses of 19th century post civil war cases and drag them before the forum.

[misterwhite #66] I never said they didn't have the right. They do. Just that the second amendment doesn't protect it.

The 2nd Amendment does protect the individual right to keep and bear arms, as explicitly expressed and held by current Supreme Court precedent.

[misterwhite #67] Yeah. In common use by the militia. According to Miller:

[...]

The question before the Miller court was whether or not a sawed-off shotgun had "any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia". If it did, then the second amendment protected it.

There ya go, digging up that corpse again. This claptrap was crushed in Heller.

District of Columbia v Heller, 554 US 570 (2008)

[595]

2. Prefatory Clause.

The prefatory clause reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State .... "

a. "Well-Regulated Militia." In United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, 179 (1939), we explained that "the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense." That definition comports with founding-era sources.

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[596]

Petitioners take a seemingly narrower view of the militia, stating that "[m]ilitias are the state- and congressionally-regulated military forces described in the Militia Clauses (art. I, § 8, cls. 15-16)." Brief for Petitioners 12. Although we agree with petitioners' interpretive assumption that "mi­litia" means the same thing in Article I and the Second Amendment, we believe that petitioners identify the wrong thing, namely, the organized militia. Unlike armies and na­vies, which Congress is given the power to create ("to raise . . . Armies"; "to provide . . . a Navy," Art. I, § 8, cls. 12-13), the militia is assumed by Article I already to be in existence. Congress is given the power to "provide for call­ing forth the Militia," § 8, cl. 15; and the power not to create, but to "organiz[e]" it—and not to organize "a" militia, which is what one would expect if the militia were to be a federal creation, but to organize "the" militia, connoting a body al­ready in existence, ibid., cl. 16. This is fully consistent with the ordinary definition of the militia as all able-bodied men. From that pool, Congress has plenary power to organize the units that will make up an effective fighting force. That is what Congress did in the first Militia Act, which specified that "each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective states, resident therein, who is or shall be of the age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia." Act of May 8, 1792, 1 Stat. 271. To be sure, Congress need not conscript every able-bodied man into the militia, because nothing in Article I suggests that in exercising its power to organize, discipline, and arm the militia, Congress must focus upon the entire body. Although the militia consists of all able-bodied men, the federally organized militia may consist of a subset of them.

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[598]

3. Relationship Between Prefatory Clause and Opera­tive Clause.

We reach the question, then: Does the preface it with an operative clause that creates an individual right to keep and bear arms? It fits perfectly, once one knows the history that the founding generation knew and that we have described above. That history showed that the way tyrants had elimi­nated a militia consisting of all the able-bodied men was not by banning the militia but simply by taking away the peo­ple's arms, enabling a select militia or standing army to sup­press political opponents. This is what had occurred in Eng­land that prompted codification of the right to have arms in the English Bill of Rights.

The debate with respect to the right to keep and bear arms, as with other guarantees in the Bill of Rights, was not over whether it was desirable (all agreed that it was) but over whether it needed to be codified in the Constitution.

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[599]

It is therefore entirely sensible that the Second Amend­ment's prefatory clause announces the purpose for which the right was codified: to prevent elimination of the militia. The prefatory clause does not suggest that preserving the militia was the only reason Americans valued the ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more important for self-defense and hunting. But the threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens' militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution. JUSTICE BREYER's assertion that individual self-defense is merely a "subsidiary interest" of the right to keep and bear arms, see post, at 714 (dissenting opinion), is profoundly mis­taken. He bases that assertion solely upon the prologue— but that can only show that self-defense had little to do with the right's codification; it was the central component of the right itself.

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[619]

United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, in the course of vacating the convictions of members of a white mob for depriving blacks of their right to keep and bear arms, held that the Second Amendment does not by its own force apply to anyone other than the Federal Government. The opinion explained that the right "is not a right granted by the Con­stitution [or] in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment... means no more

620

than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." Id., at 553. States, we said, were free to restrict or protect the right under their police powers. The limited discussion of the Second Amendment in Cruikshank supports, if anything, the individual-rights interpretation. There was no claim in Cruikshank that the victims had been deprived of their right to carry arms in a militia; indeed, the Governor had dis­banded the local militia unit the year before the mob's attack, see C. Lane, The Day Freedom Died 62 (2008). We de­scribed the right protected by the Second Amendment as " 'bearing arms for a lawful purpose' " and said that "the people [must] look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens of the rights it recognizes" to the States' police power. 92 U. S., at 553. That discussion makes little sense if it is only a right to bear arms in a state militia.

Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 (1886), held that the right to keep and bear arms was not violated by a law that forbade "bodies of men to associate together as military organiza­tions, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law." Id., at 264-265. This does not refute the individual-rights interpretation of the Amend­ment; no one supporting that interpretation has contended that States may not ban such groups.

621

JUSTICE STEVENS presses Presser into service to support his view that the right to bear arms is limited to service in the militia by join­ing Presser's brief discussion of the Second Amendment with a later portion of the opinion making the seemingly relevant (to the Second Amendment) point that the plaintiff was not a member of the state militia. Unfortunately for JUSTICE STEVENS' argument, that later portion deals with the Four­teenth Amendment; it was the Fourteenth Amendment to which the plaintiff's nonmembership in the militia was rele­vant. Thus, JUSTICE STEVENS' statement that Presser "suggested that . . . nothing in the Constitution protected the use of arms outside the context of a militia," post, at 674-675, is simply wrong.

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[621]

JUSTICE STEVENS places overwhelming reliance upon this Court's decision in Miller, 307 U. S. 174. "[H]undreds of judges," we are told, "have relied on the view of the Amend­ment we endorsed there," post, at 638, and "[e]ven if the textual and historical arguments on both sides of the issue were evenly balanced, respect for the well-settled views of all of our predecessors on this Court, and for the rule of law itself . . . would prevent most jurists from endorsing such a dramatic upheaval in the law," post, at 639. And what is, according to JUSTICE STEVENS, the holding of Miller that demands such obeisance? That the Second Amendment "protects the right to keep and bear arms for certain military purposes, but that it does not curtail the Legislature's power to regulate the nonmilitary use and ownership of weapons." Post, at 637.

Nothing so clearly demonstrates the weakness of JUSTICE STEVENS' case. Miller did not hold that and cannot possibly be read to have held that. The judgment in the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men's federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled

622

shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court's basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were "bear[ing] arms" not "for . . . military purposes" but for "nonmilitary use," post, at 637. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: "In the ab­sence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument." 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added). "Cer­tainly," the Court continued, "it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equip­ment or that its use could contribute to the common de­fense." Ibid. Beyond that, the opinion provided no expla­nation of the content of the right.

This holding is not only consistent with, but positively suggests, that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms (though only arms that "have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia"). Had the Court believed that the Second Amendment protects only those serving in the militia, it would have been odd to examine the character of the weapon rather than simply note that the two crooks were not militiamen. JUSTICE STEVENS can say again and again that Miller did not "turn on the difference between muskets and sawed-off shotguns; it turned, rather, on the basic difference between the military and nonmilitary use and possession of guns," post, at 677, but the words of the opinion prove otherwise. The most JUSTICE STEVENS can plausibly claim for Miller is that it declined to decide the nature of the Second Amendment right, despite the Solicitor General's argument (made in the alternative) that the right was collective, see Brief for United States, O. T. 1938,

623

No. 696, pp. 4-5. Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons.

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[623]

It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment. JUS­TICE STEVENS claims, post, at 676-677, that the opinion reached its conclusion "[a]fter reviewing many of the same sources that are discussed at greater length by the Court today." Not many, which was not entirely the Court's fault. The defendants made no appearance in the case, neither filing a brief nor appearing at oral argument; the Court heard from no one but the Government (reason enough, one would think, not to make that case the beginning and the end of this Court's consideration of the Second Amendment). See Frye, The Peculiar Story of United States v. Miller, 3N. Y. U. J. L. & Liberty 48, 65-68 (2008). The Government's brief spent two pages discussing English legal sources, concluding " that at least the carrying of weapons without lawful occa­sion or excuse was always a crime" and that (because of the class-based restrictions and the prohibition on terrorizing people with dangerous or unusual weapons) "the early Eng­lish law did not guarantee an unrestricted right to bear arms." Brief for United States, O. T. 1938, No. 696, at 9-11. It then went on to rely primarily on the discussion of the English right to bear arms in Aymette v. State, 21 Tenn. 154, for the proposition that the only uses of arms protected by the Second Amendment are those that relate to the militia, not self-defense. See Brief for United States, O. T. 1938, No. 696, at 12-18. The final section of the brief recognized that "some courts have said that the right to bear arms in­cludes the right of the individual to have them for the protec­tion of his person and property," and launched an alternative argument that "weapons which are commonly used by crimi­nals," such as sawed-off shotguns, are not protected. See id., at 18-21. The Government's Miller brief thus provided

624

scant discussion of the history of the Second Amendment— and the Court was presented with no counter discussion. As for the text of the Court's opinion itself, that discusses none of the history of the Second Amendment. It assumes from the prologue that the Amendment was designed to preserve the militia, 307 U. S., at 178 (which we do not dispute), and then reviews some historical materials dealing with the na­ture of the militia, and in particular with the nature of the arms their members were expected to possess, id., at 178­182. Not a word (not a word) about the history of the Sec­ond Amendment. This is the mighty rock upon which the dissent rests its case.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

McDonald v Chicago, 561 US 742 (2010)

[Syllabus at 1]

The Seventh Circuit affirmed, relying on three 19th-century casesUnited States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, and Miller v. Texas, 153 U. S. 535— which were decided in the wake of this Court's interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause in the Slaughter-House Cases, 16 Wall. 36.

Held: The judgment is reversed, and the case is remanded.

- - - - - - - - - -

[Syllabus at 2]

(b) The Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, originally applied only to the Federal Government, not to the States, see, e.g., Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243, 247, but the constitutional Amendments adopted in the Civil War's aftermath fundamentally altered the federal system. Four years after the adop­tion of the Fourteenth Amendment, this Court held in the Slaughter­ House Cases, that the Privileges or Immunities Clause protects only those rights "which owe their existence to the Federal government, its National character, its Constitution, or its laws," 16 Wall., at 79, and that the fundamental rights predating the creation of the Fed­eral Government were not protected by the Clause, id., at 76. Under this narrow reading, the Court held that the Privileges or Immunities Clause protects only very limited rights. Id., at 79-80. Subse­quently, the Court held that the Second Amendment applies only to the Federal Government in Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, Presser, 116 U. S. 252, and Miller, 153 U. S. 535, the decisions on which the Sev­enth Circuit relied in this case. Pp. 5-9.

- - - - - - - - - -

[Syllabus at 3]

(d) The Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms fully applicable to the States. Pp. 19-33.

- - - - - - - - - -

[9]

The Court reversed all of the convictions, including those relating to the deprivation of the victims' right to bear arms. Cruikshank, 92 U. S., at 553, 559. The Court wrote that the right of bearing arms for a lawful purpose "is not a right granted by the Constitution" and is not "in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its exis­tence." Id., at 553. "The second amendment," the Court continued, "declares that it shall not be infringed; but this . . . means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." Ibid. "Our later decisions in Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 265 (1886), and Miller v. Texas, 153 U. S. 535, 538 (1894), reaffirmed that the Second Amendment applies only to the Federal Government." Heller, 554 U. S., at_, n. 23 (slip op., at 48, n. 23).

- - - - - - - - - -

[10]

As previously noted, the Seventh Circuit concluded that Cruikshank, Presser, and Miller doomed petitioners' claims at the Court of Appeals level. Petitioners argue, however, that we should overrule those decisions and hold that the right to keep and bear arms is one of the "privi­leges or immunities of citizens of the United States." In petitioners' view, the Privileges or Immunities Clause protects all of the rights set out in the Bill of Rights, as well as some others, see Brief for Petitioners 10, 14, 15-21, but petitioners are unable to identify the Clause's full scope, Tr. of Oral Arg. 5-6, 8-11. Nor is there any consen­sus on that question among the scholars who agree that the Slaughter-House Cases' interpretation is flawed. See Saenz, supra, at 522, n. 1 (THOMAS, J., dissenting).

We see no need to reconsider that interpretation here. For many decades, the question of the rights protected by the Fourteenth Amendment against state infringement has been analyzed under the Due Process Clause of that Amendment and not under the Privileges or Immunities Clause. We therefore decline to disturb the Slaughter­ House holding.

At the same time, however, this Court's decisions in Cruikshank, Presser, and Miller do not preclude us from considering whether the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right binding on the States. See Heller, 554 U. S., at_, n. 23 (slip op., at 48, n. 23). None of those cases "engage[d] in the sort of Fourteenth Amendment inquiry required by our later cases." Ibid. As explained more fully below, Cruikshank, Presser, and Miller all preceded the era in which the Court began the process of "selective incorpo­ration" under the Due Process Clause, and we have never previously addressed the question whether the right to keep and bear arms applies to the States under that theory.

11

Indeed, Cruikshank has not prevented us from holding that other rights that were at issue in that case are bind­ing on the States through the Due Process Clause. In Cruikshank, the Court held that the general "right of the people peaceably to assemble for lawful purposes," which is protected by the First Amendment, applied only against the Federal Government and not against the States. See 92 U. S., at 551-552. Nonetheless, over 60 years later the Court held that the right of peaceful assembly was a "fun­damental righ[t] . . . safeguarded by the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment." De Jonge v. Oregon, 299 U. S. 353, 364 (1937). We follow the same path here and thus consider whether the right to keep and bear arms applies to the States under the Due Process Clause.

- - - - - - - - - -

[13]

An alternative theory regarding the relationship be-

14

tween the Bill of Rights and §1 of the Fourteenth Amend­ment was championed by Justice Black. This theory held that §1 of the Fourteenth Amendment totally incorporated all of the provisions of the Bill of Rights. See, e.g., Adamson, supra, at 71-72 (Black, J., dissenting); Duncan, supra, at 166 (Black, J., concurring). As Justice Black noted, the chief congressional proponents of the Four­teenth Amendment espoused the view that the Amend­ment made the Bill of Rights applicable to the States and, in so doing, overruled this Court's decision in Barron. Adamson, 332 U. S., at 72 (dissenting opinion). None-

15

theless, the Court never has embraced Justice Black's "total incorporation" theory.

While Justice Black's theory was never adopted, the Court eventually moved in that direction by initiating what has been called a process of "selective incorporation," i.e., the Court began to hold that the Due Process Clause fully incorporates particular rights contained in the first eight Amendments. See, e.g., Gideon v. Wainwright, 372 U. S. 335, 341 (1963); Malloy v. Hogan, 378 U. S. 1, 5-6

16

(1964); Pointer v. Texas, 380 U. S. 400, 403-404 (1965); Washington v. Texas, 388 U. S. 14, 18 (1967); Duncan, 391 U. S., at 147-148; Benton v. Maryland, 395 U. S. 784, 794 (1969).

The decisions during this time abandoned three of the previously noted characteristics of the earlier period.11 The Court made it clear that the governing standard is not whether any "civilized system [can] be imagined that would not accord the particular protection." Duncan, 391 U. S., at 149, n. 14. Instead, the Court inquired whether a particular Bill of Rights guarantee is fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty and system of justice. Id., at 149, and n. 14; see also id., at 148 (referring to those "fundamental principles of liberty and justice which lie at the base of all our civil and political institutions" (empha­sis added; internal quotation marks omitted)).

The Court also shed any reluctance to hold that rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights met the requirements for protection under the Due Process Clause. The Court eventually incorporated almost all of the provisions of the Bill of Rights. Only a handful of the Bill of Rights pro-

17

tections remain unincorporated.

Finally, the Court abandoned "the notion that the Four­teenth Amendment applies to the States only a watered-down, subjective version of the individual guarantees of the Bill of Rights," stating that it would be "incongruous" to apply different standards "depending on whether the claim was asserted in a state or federal court." Malloy, 378 U. S., at 10-11 (internal quotation marks omitted). Instead, the Court decisively held that incorporated Bill of

18

Rights protections "are all to be enforced against the States under the Fourteenth Amendment according to the same standards that protect those personal rights against federal encroachment." Id., at 10; see also Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U. S. 643, 655-656 (1961); Ker v. California, 374 U. S. 23, 33-34 (1963); Aguilar v. Texas, 378 U. S. 108, 110 (1964); Pointer, 380 U. S., at 406; Duncan, supra, at 149, 157-158; Benton, 395 U. S., at 794-795; Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U. S. 38, 48-49 (1985).

Employing this approach, the Court overruled earlier decisions in which it had held that particular Bill of Rights

19

guarantees or remedies did not apply to the States. See, e.g., Mapp, supra (overruling in part Wolf, 338 U. S. 25); Gideon, 372 U. S. 335 (overruling Betts, 316 U. S. 455); Malloy, supra (overruling Adamson, 332 U. S. 46, and Twining, 211 U. S. 78); Benton, supra, at 794 (overruling Palko, 302 U. S. 319).

III

With this framework in mind, we now turn directly to the question whether the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is incorporated in the concept of due process. In answering that question, as just explained, we must decide whether the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty, Duncan, 391 U. S., at 149, or as we have said in a related context, whether this right is "deeply rooted in this Nation's his­tory and tradition," Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U. S. 702, 721 (1997) (internal quotation marks omitted).

A

Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the answer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is "the central component" of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at_(slip op., at 26); see also id., at_(slip op., at 56) (stating that the "inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right").

- - - - - - - - - -

[31]

In sum, it is clear that the Framers and ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment counted the right to keep and bear arms among those fundamental rights necessary to our system of ordered liberty.

- - - - - - - - - -

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-16   15:52:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: nolu chan (#68)

Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons.

Correct. Those used by a militia. The Miller court was unsure whether a sawed-off, double-barrel shotgun was a militia weapon.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-16   16:14:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: misterwhite (#70)

Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons.

[misterwhite #70] Correct. Those used by a militia. The Miller court was unsure whether a sawed-off, double-barrel shotgun was a militia weapon.

The Court opined,

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

There was no brief or appearance for Miller. No evidence was provided except by the government. The court can only consider evidence that is before it.

With no relevant evidence before the court whether a short barrel shotgun bore, "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia," the court could not "say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument."

You cite that as precedent for what?

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-18   18:23:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: nolu chan (#75)

You cite that as precedent for what?

That the type of weapon protected by the second amendment was relevent to its usefulness to a militia.

Useful? Protected. Not useful? Not protected.

Meaning, the second amendment has nothing to do with protecting some handgun for self-defense in the home. It's a restriction on the federal government to leave the state militias (and their weapons) alone.

Your right to self-defense with a firearm is protected by your state constitution. Always has been. The Heller court got it wrong.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-18   19:31:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: misterwhite (#81)

You cite that as precedent for what?

That the type of weapon protected by the second amendment was relevent to its usefulness to a militia.

- - - - - - - - - -

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

Presser

In the absence of evidence, the court could not say whether the a short barrel shotgun was a weapon in any part of the ordinary military equipment.

What a precedent. In the absence of evidence, the court could not say.

The District of Columbia argues that the prefatory clause declares the Amendment’s only purpose—to shield the state militias from federal encroachment—and that the operative clause, even when read in isolation, speaks solely to military affairs and guarantees a civic, rather than an individual, right. In other words, according to the District, the operative clause is not just limited by the prefatory clause, but instead both clauses share an explicitly civic character. The District claims that the Second Amendment “protects private possession of weapons only in connection with performance of civic duties as part of a well-regulated citizens militia organized for the security of a free state.” Individuals may be able to enforce the Second Amendment right, but only if the law in question “will impair their participation in common defense and law enforcement when called to serve in the militia.” But because the District reads “a well regulated Militia” to signify only the organized militias of the founding era—institutions that the District implicitly argues are no longer in existence today—invocation of the Second Amendment right is conditioned upon service in a defunct institution. Tellingly, we think, the District did not suggest what sort of law, if any, would violate the Second Amendment today—in fact, at oral argument, appellees’ counsel asserted that it would be constitutional for the District to ban all firearms outright. In short, we take the District’s position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter.

[...]

We are told by the District that the Second Amendment was written in response to fears that the new federal government would disarm the state militias by preventing men from bearing arms while in actual militia service, or by preventing them from keeping arms at home in preparation for such service. Thus the Amendment should be understood to check federal power to regulate firearms only when federal legislation was directed at the abolition of state militias, because the Amendment’s exclusive concern was the preservation of those entities. At first blush, it seems passing strange that the able lawyers and statesmen in the First Congress (including James Madison) would have expressed a sole concern for state militias with the language of the Second Amendment. Surely there was a more direct locution, such as “Congress shall make no law disarming the state militias” or “States have a right to a well-regulated militia.”

[...]

Both the collective and sophisticated collective theories assert that the Second Amendment was written for the exclusive purpose of preserving state militias, and both theories deny that individuals qua individuals can avail themselves of the Second Amendment today. The latter point is true either because, as the District appears to argue, the “Militia” is no longer in existence, or, as others argue, because the militia’s modern analogue, the National Guard, is fully equipped by the federal government, creating no need for individual ownership of firearms. It appears to us that for all its nuance, the sophisticated collective right model amounts to the old collective right theory giving a tip of the hat to the problematic (because ostensibly individual) text of the Second Amendment.

[...]

In determining whether the Second Amendment’s guarantee is an individual one, or some sort of collective right, the most important word is the one the drafters chose to describe the holders of the right—“the people.” That term is found in the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. It has never been doubted that these provisions were designed to protect the interests of individuals against government intrusion, interference, or usurpation. We also note that the Tenth Amendment—“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people”—indicates that the authors of the Bill of Rights were perfectly capable of distinguishing between “the people,” on the one hand, and “the states,” on the other. The natural reading of “the right of the people” in the Second Amendment would accord with usage elsewhere in the Bill of Rights.

The District’s argument, on the other hand, asks us to read “the people” to mean some subset of individuals such as “the organized militia” or “the people who are engaged in militia service,” or perhaps not any individuals at all—e.g., “the states.” See Emerson, 270 F.3d at 227. These strained interpretations of “the people” simply cannot be squared with the uniform construction of our other Bill of Rights provisions. Indeed, the Supreme Court has recently endorsed a uniform reading of “the people” across the Bill of Rights.

[...]

In sum, the phrase “the right of the people,” when read intratextually and in light of Supreme Court precedent, leads us to conclude that the right in question is individual.

Parker v District of Columbia, 478 F3d 372 (DC Cir 2007), Affirmed U.S. Supreme Court, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-18   20:06:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: nolu chan (#88)

In short, we take the District’s position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter.

Well, does the Distict of Columbia have a militia? If not, then the second amendment doesn't apply. I wouldn't call it a dead letter.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-18   20:27:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: misterwhite (#91)

Well, does the Distict of Columbia have a militia? If not, then the second amendment doesn't apply.

The District of Columbia is not a state. It is a Federal district. There was no need for incorporation for the 2nd amendment to apply to the District of Columbia.

The District indicated the 2nd Amendment was a dead letter. The court disagreed and found the District to be in violation of the 2nd Amendment.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-18   23:22:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: nolu chan (#94)

The District of Columbia is not a state. It is a Federal district. There was no need for incorporation for the 2nd amendment to apply to the District of Columbia.

Which is the main problem with the Heller decision. Had, say, Ohio banned handguns in the home for self-defense, the ruling would have been different because the court would have referred to Ohio's state constitution.

So the Heller court felt compelled to twist and distort the second amendment to make it applicable to DC residents. Which it is not.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-19   9:14:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: misterwhite (#101)

The District of Columbia is not a state. It is a Federal district. There was no need for incorporation for the 2nd amendment to apply to the District of Columbia.

Which is the main problem with the Heller decision. Had, say, Ohio banned handguns in the home for self-defense, the ruling would have been different because the court would have referred to Ohio's state constitution.

So the Heller court felt compelled to twist and distort the second amendment to make it applicable to DC residents. Which it is not.

Once again, you do not know what the hell you are talking about and just blather.

Heller only applied to the District of Columbia, not to the States.

McDonald took up the issue regarding thd States and decided that the 2nd Amendment had been incorporated into the 14th Amendment and was fully applicable to all the States.

Heller did not have to twist or distort anything to make it applicable to the District. It is a Federal district, under the control of the U.S. Congress. Congress has the power "to to exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District...." Art. 1, Sec. 8, Cl. 17. The 2nd Amendment automatically applied to the Federal district.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   1:03:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: nolu chan (#108)

Heller only applied to the District of Columbia, not to the States.

And that's where it should have stayed.

"Heller did not have to twist or distort anything to make it applicable to the District."

Sure it did. It applied the second amendment protection of a militia to an individual ... because D.C. residents weren't protected by their own constitution.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   10:39:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: misterwhite (#115)

Heller only applied to the District of Columbia, not to the States.

And that's where it should have stayed.

It didn't. McDonald v City of Chicago,

"Heller did not have to twist or distort anything to make it applicable to the District."

Sure it did. It applied the second amendment protection of a militia to an individual ... because D.C. residents weren't protected by their own constitution.

You are out of your damn mind if you think the Federal Constitution did not apply directly to the Federal District of Columbia.

You are equally out of your mind if you think the Federal District of Columbia is a sovereign state. D.C. has no sovereignty to exercise.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-22   17:06:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: nolu chan (#120)

"You are out of your damn mind if you think the Federal Constitution did not apply directly to the Federal District of Columbia."

Federal Constitution? Whatever.

I'm not referring to the U.S. Constitution. I'm referring to the second amendment which protects state militias. D.C. is not a state. It has no state militia.

So the U.S. Supreme Court twisted the second amendment saying it protected an individual right, and therefore Mr. Heller's right to keep a handgun in the home for self-defense was preserved.

Look. Let's say you're right -- the second amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms which are in common civilian use. What protects state militias and/or the National Guard? What's to prevent the Federal government from disbanding the National Guard and organizing a standing Federal military?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-22   17:24:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: misterwhite (#123)

I'm not referring to the U.S. Constitution. I'm referring to the second amendment which protects state militias. D.C. is not a state. It has no state militia.

Your continued militia argument is just horseshit.

I have patiently explained to you that the 2nd amendment right is an individual right, it has been incorporated into the 14th Amendment, and it applies to the District of Columbia (Heller) and to the States (McDonald).

That you do not personally approve of SCOTUS in Heller and McDonald changes nothing.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-23   0:42:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: nolu chan (#125)

Second request. If you're right, then what protects state militias and/or the National Guard from federal infringement? What's to prevent the Federal government from disbanding the National Guard and organizing a standing Federal military?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-23   9:18:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: misterwhite (#128)

Second request. If you're right, then what protects state militias and/or the National Guard from federal infringement? What's to prevent the Federal government from disbanding the National Guard and organizing a standing Federal military?

A second response. The 2nd Amendment protects the individual right to keep and bear arms. It has been incorporated into the 14th Amendment and applies to all the states.

The First Request and Response is repeated below at the end of this post. The actual dingbat request was,

[nolu chan #97] "Where did you find the constitutional right of a State to form and maintain a militia?"

[misterwhite #104] I would think you would know, being an expert in common law. The authority comes from posse comitatus and pre-dates the U.S. Constitution.

The second amendment says the Federal Government can't infringe on this common law.

You hilariously asserted that 2nd Amendment forbids Federal infringement on something or other in the common law regarding posse comitatus.

If that is what the 2nd Amendment says, quote that part of the 2nd amendment.

The nonsense at your #104 was answered at my #111.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-32/chapter-1/

United States Code, 2012 Edition, Supplement 4, Title 32 - NATIONAL GUARD

Sec. 101 - Definitions
Sec. 102 - General policy
Sec. 103 - Branches and organizations
Sec. 104 - Units: location; organization; command
Sec. 105 - Inspection
Sec. 106 - Annual appropriations
Sec. 107 - Availability of appropriations
Sec. 108 - Forfeiture of Federal benefits
Sec. 109 - Maintenance of other troops
Sec. 110 - Regulations
Sec. 111 - Suspension of certain provisions of this title
Sec. 112 - Drug interdiction and counter-drug activities
Sec. 113 - Federal financial assistance for support of additional duties assigned to the Army National Guard
Sec. 114 - Funeral honors functions at funerals for veterans
Sec. 115 - Funeral honors duty performed as a Federal function

https://www.scribd.com/document/380029027/32-Stat-775-1903-the-Dick-Act-The-Militia-Act-of-1903

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[nolu chan #97] "Where did you find the constitutional right of a State to form and maintain a militia?"

[misterwhite #104] I would think you would know, being an expert in common law. The authority comes from posse comitatus and pre-dates the U.S. Constitution.

The second amendment says the Federal Government can't infringe on this common law.

The nonsense at your #104 was answered at my #111.

You're blowing it out of your ass.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section8

Article 1, Section 8:

The Congress shall have power ... To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

For your cited State Defense Forces, which may be comprised of fat 65-year old men with no military experience, they are authorized by Federal statute.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-32/chapter-1/sec.-109/

[nolu chan #97] "Where did you find the constitutional right of a State to form and maintain a militia?"

[misterwhite #104] I would think you would know, being an expert in common law. The authority comes from posse comitatus and pre-dates the U.S. Constitution.

The second amendment says the Federal Government can't infringe on this common law.

[nolu chan #111] You're blowing it out of your ass.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section8

Article 1, Section 8:

The Congress shall have power ... To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

For your cited State Defense Forces, which may be comprised of fat 65-year old men with no military experience, they are authorized by Federal statute.

https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2016/title-32/chapter-1/sec.-109/

2016 US Code
Title 32 - National Guard
Chapter 1 - Organization
Sec. 109 - Maintenance of other troops

32 U.S.C. § 109 (2016)

(a) In time of peace, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, or the Virgin Islands may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States.

(e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces. Source Credit

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 600; Pub. L. 85–861, §2(2), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1542; Pub. L. 100–456, div. A, title XII, §1234(b)(1), Sept. 29, 1988, 102 Stat. 2059; Pub. L. 109–163, div. A, title X, §1057(b)(3), Jan. 6, 2006, 119 Stat. 3441; Pub. L. 111–383, div. A, title X, §1075(h)(4)(B), Jan. 7, 2011, 124 Stat. 4377.)

The Second Amendment says The Federal Government shall not infringe a RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE. By incorporation into the 14th Amendment, the restriction applies equally to the several States.

Common law. As distinguished from statutory law created by the enactment of legislatures, the common law comprises the body of those principles and rules of action, relating to the government and security of persons and property, which derive their authority solely from usages and customs of immemorial antiquity, or from the judgments and decrees of the courts recognizing, affirming, and enforcing such usages and customs; and, in this sense, particularly the ancient unwritten law of England. In general, it is a body of law that develops and derives through judicial decisions, as distinguished from legislative enactments. The "common law" is all the statutory and case law background of England and the American colonies before the American revolution.

Black's Law Dictionary 6th Ed.

Take your childish argument to your nearest pre-revolutionary colonial court.

There have never been common law courts in the United States.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-24   0:43:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: nolu chan (#132)

The Second Amendment says The Federal Government shall not infringe a RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE.

Did they give a reason? I mean, they didn't need to give a reason. But wait. Yes they did. It's written there in the same amendment. They said that a well regulated Militia was necessary to the security of a free State.

Couldn't be any clearer.

But the Heller court, defying the precedent of Cruikshank, Presser AND Miller, totally ignored the Militia part and decided for the very first time in 200+ years that the second amendment really protected an individual right to keep a handgun in the home for self-defense.

Only the Heller court was smart enough to see that.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-24   9:37:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: misterwhite (#138)

The Second Amendment says The Federal Government shall not infringe a RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE.

Did they give a reason? I mean, they didn't need to give a reason. But wait. Yes they did. It's written there in the same amendment. They said that a well regulated Militia was necessary to the security of a free State.

Couldn't be any clearer.

Yes they gave a reason. The 2nd Amendment says "the right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

But the Heller court, defying the precedent of Cruikshank, Presser AND Miller, totally ignored the Militia part and decided for the very first time in 200+ years that the second amendment really protected an individual right to keep a handgun in the home for self-defense.

Nonsense, directly refuted by the content of Heller.

WHAT precedent do you claim was defied by the Heller court?

Heller, 554 U.S. 619-20, concerning Cruickshank:

We now ask whether any of our precedents forecloses the conclusions we have reached about the meaning of the Second Amendment.

United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, in the course of vacating the convictions of members of a white mob for depriving blacks of their right to keep and bear arms, held that the Second Amendment does not by its own force apply to anyone other than the Federal Government. The opinion explained that the right “is not a right granted by the Constitution [or] in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment... means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress.” Id., at 553. States, we said, were free to restrict or protect the right under their police powers. The limited discussion of the Second Amendment in Cruikshank supports, if anything, the individual-rights interpretation. There was no claim in Cruikshank that the victims had been deprived of their right to carry arms in a militia; indeed, the Governor had disbanded the local militia unit the year before the mob’s attack, see C. Lane, The Day Freedom Died 62 (2008).

Heller, 554 U.S. 620, concerning Presser:

Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 (1886), held that the right to keep and bear arms was not violated by a law that forbade “bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law.” Id., at 264–265. This does not refute the individual-rights interpretation of the Amendment; no one supporting that interpretation has contended that States may not ban such groups.

Heller, 554 U.S. 622, concerning Miller:

This holding is not only consistent with, but positively suggests, that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms (though only arms that “have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia”). Had the Court believed that the Second Amendment protects only those serving in the militia, it would have been odd to examine the character of the weapon rather than simply note that the two crooks were not militiamen.

Heller, 554 U.S. 623, concerning Miller:

Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons.

It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment.

Heller, 554 U.S. 625, concerning Miller:

We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns. That accords with the historical understanding of the scope of the right, see Part III, infra.

We conclude that nothing in our precedents forecloses our adoption of the original understanding of the Second Amendment.

The issue of whether the 2nd Amendment applied to the states was not at issue in Heller. Heller arose from a Federal district, not a state.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-25   0:04:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: nolu chan (#147)

You keep referring to the Heller case as if it was the only case ever brought before the Supreme Court of the U.S. I suggest you get a hold of a reader entitled, That Every Man Be Armed written by this guy stephenhalbrook.com/everyman.html In it, he delves into the sole purpose of it being a necessity for every citizen, whether regulated or not, to keep and bear arms, whether they be long or short-barreled, for the purpose of protecting themselves from enemy invasions and rogue governments.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-25   15:26:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: goldilucky (#155)

"he delves into the sole purpose of it being a necessity for every citizen, whether regulated or not, to keep and bear arms, whether they be long or short-barreled, for the purpose of protecting themselves from enemy invasions and rogue governments."

I agree with that. I'm sure most do. I believe it is every citizen's right and duty to keep and bear arms.

But what makes you think the second amendment protects that right? That's what the debate is all about.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-25   17:27:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: misterwhite (#156) (Edited)

There is no debate about the rights of the people of the United States of America.

The only question that is really at issue is who are the people that this right protects. The original framers of our Constitution made that clear who those people they were referring to (the general john q. public}. They did not trust a federalized army after what they endured in fighting the British Redcoats that burned down our White House.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-25   22:52:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: goldilucky (#158) (Edited)

The original framers of our Constitution made that clear who those people they were referring to (the general john q public.}.

Article 1, Section 2, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution reads:

"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

When this was ratified in 1788, who were "the people" referenced in the above? Everyone? Every citizen? Women? Children? Non-land owners? Slaves? Illegals? Visitors?

You say "the general john q public" so I assume you mean everyone walking around. All of them were "the people" and could vote in 1788?

Here's an uncomfortable fact for you. In 1788, "the people" were the rich, white guys who had something to lose. No one else -- not women, not children, not slaves, not non-citizens ... no one.

In 1788, only "the people" had full rights as citizens. Their right to vote, run for office, own land, and keep and bear arms as part of a militia were protected. Their right to peaceably assemble, petition the government, and be secure against unreasonable searches were protected. No one else.

Granted, over the years that's changed. But in 1788, that's who "the people" were. The U.S. Constitution needs to be interpreted with that in mind.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-26   9:43:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: misterwhite, goldilucky (#159)

Here's an uncomfortable fact for you. In 1788, "the people" were the rich, white guys who had something to lose. No one else -- not women, not children, not slaves, not non-citizens ... no one.

In 1788, only "the people" had full rights as citizens. Their right to vote, run for office, own land, and keep and bear arms as part of a militia were protected. Their right to peaceably assemble, petition the government, and be secure against unreasonable searches were protected. No one else.

Granted, over the years that's changed. But in 1788, that's who "the people" were. The U.S. Constitution needs to be interpreted with that in mind.

"The people" and "citizens" were synonymous terms. Your screed is nonsense. Women and children were citizens. Voting was not a right of citizenship. Slaves had no municipal rights or status and were neither citizens nor aliens. Well before women had a right to vote, they had the right to run for office, and multiple times ran for President of the United States, appeared on the ballot, and won votes. In 1879, a woman attorney was admitted to practice before the U.S. Supreme Court.

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

If the right of suffrage is one of the necessary privileges of a citizen of the United States, then the constitution and laws of Missouri confining it to men are in violation of the Constitution of the United States, as amended, and consequently void. The direct question is, therefore, presented whether all citizens are necessarily voters.

The Constitution does not define the privileges and immunities of citizens. For that definition we must look elsewhere. In this case we need not determine what they are, but only whether suffrage is necessarily one of them.

There is no doubt that women may be citizens. They are persons, and by the fourteenth amendment "all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" are expressly declared to be "citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But, in our opinion, it did not need this amendment to give them that position. Before its adoption the Constitution of the United States did not in terms prescribe who should be citizens of the United States or of the several States, yet there were necessarily such citizens without such provision. There cannot be a nation without a people. The very idea of a political community, such as a nation is, implies an association of persons for the promotion of their general welfare. Each one of the persons associated becomes a member of the nation formed by the association. He owes it allegiance and is entitled to its protection. Allegiance and protection are, in this connection, reciprocal obligations. The one is a compensation for the other; allegiance for protection and protection for allegiance.

[...]

As early as 1804 it was enacted by Congress that when any alien who had declared his intention to become a citizen in the manner provided by law died before he was actually naturalized, his widow and children should be considered as citizens of the United States, and entitled to all rights and privileges as such upon taking the necessary oath; and in 1855 it was further provided that any woman who might lawfully be naturalized under the existing laws, married, or who should be married to a citizen of the United States, should be deemed and taken to be a citizen.

[...]

From this it is apparent that from the commencement of the legislation upon this subject alien women and alien minors could be made citizens by naturalization, and we think it will not be contended that this would have been done if it had not been supposed that native women and native minors were already citizens by birth.

[...]

It is clear, therefore, we think, that the Constitution has not added the right of suffrage to the privileges and immunities of citizenship as they existed at the time it was adopted. This makes it proper to inquire whether suffrage was coextensive with the citizenship of the States at the time of its adoption. If it was, then it may with force be argued that suffrage was one of the rights which belonged to citizenship, and in the enjoyment of which every citizen must be protected. But if it was not, the contrary may with propriety be assumed.

[...]

Being unanimously of the opinion that the Constitution of the United States does not confer the right of sufrage upon any one, and that the constitutions and laws of the several States which commit that important trust to men alone are not necessarily void, we

AFFIRM THE JUDGMENT.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-29   16:50:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: nolu chan (#172)

"The people" and "citizens" were synonymous terms.

"The people" were citizens, but not all citizens were "the people".

If what you say is true, then all citizens could vote -- which was not the case back then. As you proved with your court case. Women citizens and children citizens and non-land- owning citizens (in some states) could not vote.

Now, maybe there were some exceptions in some states, but they were few and far between. The rich white guys were "the people" and had the power and the full constitutional protections.

And who served in the militias?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-29   17:18:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: misterwhite (#174)

If what you say is true, then all citizens could vote -- which was not the case back then.

This is just dumb obstinancy. Minor v. Happersett clearly held that suffrage was not a right conferred by citizenship. That one could vote did not mean one was a citizen, and that one could not vote did not signify a lack of citizenship.

Notice that about half the able-bodied men in the state of Wisconsin in 1862 were foreigners, had not been naturalized, and yet they enjoyed the right to vote under the state constitution. At that time, there was no federal equirement that one needed to be a citizen to vote in elections for federal office.

Male aliens could vote; women citizens born in the United States could not. Voting rights are conferred by law, not citizenship.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924079575241;view=1up;seq=381

OFFICIAL RECORDS: Series 3, vol 2, Part 1 (Union Letters, Orders, Reports)

Page 369 UNION AUTHORITIES.

MADISON, WIS., August 12, 1862.

Honorable E. M. STANTON:

About one-half of the able-bodied men between eighteen and forty- five years in this State are foreign born. They have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States. Have the right to vote under our State constitution if twenty-one years old. Have enjoyed and are enjoying all the privileges of citizens. Are they liable to be drafted? They should be liable. Great injustice will be done to our State if they are exempt, and our quota would be too large if they are exempt. Cannot those who are not willing to subject themselves to draft be ordered to leave the country? Answer this immediately. I must have the time for volunteering extended, as asked for by my dispatches of Saturday and yesterday. Please answer them.

E. SALOMON,

Governor of Wisconsin.

- - - - -

WAR DEPARTMENT,

Washington City, D. C., August 12, 1862.

Governor SALOMON,

Madison, Wis.:

Foreigners who have voted at our elections are regarded as having exercised a franchise that subjects them to military duty. Declaration of intention to become naturalized is not of itself sufficient to prevent their taking advantage of their alienage, but a man who votes must bear arms. Your telegram respecting extension of time for volunteering cannot be answered until tomorrow, some information from different States being required.

EDWIN M. STANTON,

Secretary of War.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As you proved with your court case. Women citizens and children citizens and non-land- owning citizens (in some states) could not vote.

As proved by Minor v. Happersett, after the 14th Amendment,

1. The word "citizen" is often used to convey the idea of membership in a nation.

2. In that sense, women, if born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, have always been considered citizens of the United States, as much so before the adoption of the fourteenth amendment to the Constitution as since.

3. The right of suffrage was not necessarily one of the privileges or immunities of citizenship before the adoption of the fourteenth amendment, and that amendment does not add to these privileges and immunities. It simply furnishes additional guaranty for the protection of such as the citizen already had.

4. At the time of the adoption of that amendment, suffrage was not coextensive with the citizenship of the States; nor was it at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

5. Neither the Constitution nor the fourteenth amendment made all citizens voters.

6. A provision in a State constitution which confines the right of voting to "male citizens of the United States," is no violation of the Federal Constitution. In such a State women have no right to vote.

Syllabus at 88 U.S. 162.

In 1875, after the 14th Amendment, Virginia Minor was held to be a natural born citizen who did not have a right to vote because her state law said so. Suffrage was held to not be a privilege of citizenship.

Your continued attempt to conflate voting rights with citizenship remains misplaced.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now, maybe there were some exceptions in some states, but they were few and far between. The rich white guys were "the people" and had the power and the full constitutional protections.

According to the law, as expounded by the U.S. Supreme Court, voting is not a right conferred by citizenship. And, "women, if born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, have always been considered citizens of the United States."

Your personal misinterpretation of the law is irrelevant.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And who served in the militias?

Who were members of that militia has varied according to which Militia Act was effective. Generally, it was the able-bodied male population between 18-45 years of age. Originally, it was exclusively white male citizens. The age range is now 17-45, and some females are included, and non-citizens are included.

Those who served in the militia comprise that subset of the members of the militia who were in the militia while called to service. Those who served may include persons who were ineligible due to sex, age, race, or alienage.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-31   19:30:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: nolu chan (#176)

half the able-bodied men in the state of Wisconsin in 1862 were foreigners,

That was 1862. Minor v. Happersett was an 1874 ruling.

I'm talking about 1791 when the Bill of Rights was ratified. Who were "the people" (in Article I, S I, Section 2) who were allowed to vote? Rich, white, land-owning adult males.

So then, who were "the people" in the second amendment at that time? Rich, white, land-owning adult males.

Who were the militia? Rich, white, adult males. Only their RKBA was protected because they were the militia.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-01   10:24:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: misterwhite (#179)

half the able-bodied men in the state of Wisconsin in 1862 were foreigners, [had not been naturalized, and yet they enjoyed the right to vote under the state constitution. At that time, there was no federal requirement that one needed to be a citizen to vote in elections for federal office.]

That was 1862. Minor v. Happersett was an 1874 ruling.

That sure is an irrelevant observation with no point whatever.

Half the able bodied men were aliens who had the right to vote. That is absolute proof that having the right to vote was not a mark of citizenship

Women were citizens who did not have the right to vote.

And Minor v. Happersett made the issue clear:

It is clear, therefore, we think, that the Constitution has not added the right of suffrage to the privileges and immunities of citizenship as they existed at the time it was adopted. This makes it proper to inquire whether suffrage was coextensive with the citizenship of the States at the time of its adoption. If it was, then it may with force be argued that suffrage was one of the rights which belonged to citizenship, and in the enjoyment of which every citizen must be protected. But if it was not, the contrary may with propriety be assumed.

[...]

Being unanimously of the opinion that the Constitution of the United States does not confer the right of suffrage upon any one, and that the constitutions and laws of the several States which commit that important trust to men alone are not necessarily void, we

AFFIRM THE JUDGMENT.

That is the way it was from the beginning of the constitutional republic.

There is no constitutional right to vote.

To this day, the individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States.

I'm talking about 1791 when the Bill of Rights was ratified. Who were "the people" (in Article I, S I, Section 2) who were allowed to vote? Rich, white, land-owning adult males.

The people were the men and women who were citizens. For constitutional purposes, the definition of the people has not changed since 1789.

Voting rights did not have shit to do with defining who were the people.

So then, who were "the people" in the second amendment at that time? Rich, white, land-owning adult males.

The people were men and women who were citizens. For constitutional purposes, the definition of the people has not changed since 1789.

Who were the militia? Rich, white, adult males. Only their RKBA was protected because they were the militia.

RKBA was and is an INDIVIDUAL right. It has never made a shit if one was in the militia or not. If your premise were true, RKBA did not apply to anyone over 45. For constitutional purposes, the definition of the people has not changed since 1789.

The militia originally included ALL the poor, dumb white men between 18 and 45. If the militia only included rich, white, adult males, we would still be British. As ever, the vast majority were poor, not rich. You would have had a small militia indeed. The country did not have enough rich, white, adult males to fill an army.

Keep repeating something really, really dumb, and it just stays dumb.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-02   2:25:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: nolu chan (#181) (Edited)

If your premise were true, RKBA did not apply to anyone over 45.

The second amendment protected the right of the states to form and maintain a militia consisting of armed militiamen. Taking away their arms would be an infringement and, therefore, unconstitutional.

According to the Militia Act of 1792, white male citizens between the ages of 18 and 45 were conscripted into a local militia company. Those over the age of 45 were not excluded -- meaning, if they volunteered for the militia, their RKBA was protected by the second amendment.

For those not in the militia, their RKBA was protected by their state constitution.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-02   11:56:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: misterwhite (#184)

The second amendment protected the right of the states to form and maintain a militia consisting of armed militiamen.

The Second Amendment protected the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms, not the right of states to form and maintain a militia. The Federal Congress was empowered to "call forth the militia" and "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia...."

McDonald at 561 U.S. 780:

Fifth, the 39th Congress’ response to proposals to disband and disarm the Southern militias is instructive. Despite recognizing and deploring the abuses of these militias, the 39th Congress balked at a proposal to disarm them. See 39th Cong. Globe 914; Halbrook, Freedmen 20–21. Disarmament, it was argued, would violate the members’ right to bear arms, and it was ultimately decided to disband the militias but not to disarm their members. See Act of Mar. 2, 1867, § 6, 14 Stat. 487; Halbrook, Freedmen 68–69; Cramer 858–861. It cannot be doubted that the right to bear arms was regarded as a substantive guarantee, not a prohibition that could be ignored so long as the States legislated in an evenhanded manner.

IV

Municipal respondents’ remaining arguments are at war with our central holding in Heller: that the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home. Municipal respondents, in effect, ask us to treat the right recognized in Heller as a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause. Municipal respondents’ main argument is nothing less than a plea to disregard 50 years of incorporation precedent and return (presumably for this case only) to a bygone era.

The members of the militia enjoyed an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the militia did not have a right to exist, and was disbanded.

SCOTUS rejected your argument to return to a bygone era.

According to the Militia Act of 1792, white male citizens between the ages of 18 and 45 were conscripted into a local militia company.

The Militia Act of 1792 did not conscript anyone. (Neither does registration under the Selective Service Act.) It defined who was included in the UNORGANIZED militia.

Current law states, 10 U.S.C. § 311: "(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."

It still defines who are included in the UNORGANIZED militia and conscripts nobody.

And the individual right to keep and bear arms, protected by the Second Amendment, does not expire at age 45, a fact you seem utterly incapable of confronting.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   1:39:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: nolu chan (#188)

And the individual right to keep and bear arms, protected by the Second Amendment, does not expire at age 45, a fact you seem utterly incapable of confronting.

The second amendment protect the arms of militia members, no matter their age.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   11:54:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: misterwhite (#195)

The second amendment protect the arms of militia members, no matter their age.

The Second Amendment protects the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms OF ALL AMERICANS.

As the Second Amendment protects the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms OF ALL AMERICANS, it it would protect the right of militia members, if there were any, to keep and bear arms. It would equally protect te INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms of non-members of any militia.

Whether the individual is, or is not, a member of a militia is irrelevant to the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

Militia members, no matter what their age, are between 17 and 45 years old, mandated by Federal statute. The INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms does not end at 45 because it has nothing to do with being a member of a militia. By Federal law, membership in the militia ends at 45.

Heller, at 554 U.S. 580-81

What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):

“‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people."

We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-04   12:34:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: nolu chan (#199)

Whether the individual is, or is not, a member of a militia is irrelevant to the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

It makes a HUGE difference as to the types of arms protected. If we accept that the second amendment only protects those arms that are commonly used by individuals for self-defense in the home, that's going to eliminate protections for a lot of weapons.

If the second amendment protects the arms used by a State Militia, however ...

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-04   12:49:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: misterwhite (#202)

Whether the individual is, or is not, a member of a militia is irrelevant to the individual's right to keep and bear arms.

It makes a HUGE difference as to the types of arms protected.

The second Amendment offers an individual right to keep and bear arms. The right is the same in or out of the militia. As no RKBA right is gained by being in the militia, no RKBA right is lost when the individual turns 45 years old and leaves the militia. His individual right is unaffected by passing the maximum age for the miltia.

There is no huge difference as to the types of arms protected it the individual leaves the militia. There is no difference at all.

Gramps has the same RKBA rights at 46 as he had at 45.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-05   12:50:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: nolu chan (#207)

There is no huge difference as to the types of arms protected it the individual leaves the militia. There is no difference at all.

So "in common use at the time" means nothing?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-05   13:13:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: misterwhite (#211)

There is no huge difference as to the types of arms protected it the individual leaves the militia. There is no difference at all.

So "in common use at the time" means nothing?

It means nothing at all regarding the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms, and membership or non-membership in the militia.

Gramps at 46, ineligible to be a member of the militia, has the same, precise right to the same precise weapons as he had at 45 when he was a member of the militia.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-06   16:20:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: nolu chan (#213) (Edited)

So "in common use at the time" means nothing?

It means nothing at all regarding the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms, and membership or non-membership in the militia.

According to the Heller court:

"Held. 2. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."

Meaning if a weapon is not "in common use" it may be banned. Say goodbye to "assault-style" weapons. Maybe not with this court, but certainly with some future liberal court.

All because YOU wanted the second amendment to protect an individual right.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   9:45:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: misterwhite (#216)

According to the Heller court:

"Held. 2. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."

Your quote is not from the Opinion of the Court in Heller but from the Syllabus which is not part of the Opinion of the Court.

For the statement in context from the actual Opinion at 554 U.S. 627-28:

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16 Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

The Miller holding has nothing to do with a 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms depending on some imaginary connection to being a member of the militia.

What type of weapons are included in the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with WHO has the right to keep and bear arms under the 2nd Amendment.

Meaning if a weapon is not "in common use" it may be banned. Say goodbye to "assault-style" weapons. Maybe not with this court, but certainly with some future liberal court.

All because YOU wanted the second amendment to protect an individual right.

Whether I want the 2nd Amendment to protect an individual right is irrelevant to whether it does or not. The U.S. Supreme Court clearly and definitively answered the question of whether the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right. It does. You do not like that. I don't care if you like that not.

The right has never encompassed anything other than weapons, lawful to possess.

Heller at 582:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

Heller at 626:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).

Heller at 627-28:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Review your bullshit at your #2:

You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

As I said at the time, this is what happens when trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You destroy the square peg.

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens. It protects state militias and the arms of state militia members from federal infringement. What are those arms? They are the arms selected by the state militia as necessary for the protection of the state. Round peg. Round hole.

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.

The militia cited in the 2nd Amendment is the UNORGANIZED MILITIA. It is that mass of able-bodied persons between 17 and 45 years old, going about the business of their private lives.

The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right and has not one damned thing to do with whether someone is part of any ORGANIZED militia.

Nobody is a membeer of the ORGANIZED MILITIA. The ORGANIZED MILITIA does not exist today. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms does. The 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms exists independently of whether an ORGANIZED MILITIA exists, or not. It is a right of the individual, recognized but not conferred by the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms belongs to individuals

  • before they are age eligible for the UNORGANIZED MILITIA,
  • while they are age eligible for the UNORGANIZED MILITIA, and
  • after they are no longer age eligible for the UNORGANIZED MILITIA.

Your misconception of the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms is noted.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   16:51:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: nolu chan (#219)

The Miller holding has nothing to do with a 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms depending on some imaginary connection to being a member of the militia.

Then why did the Miller court ask if the shotgun was suitable for use in a militia? Why even bring it up?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-07   18:40:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: misterwhite (#223)

The Miller holding has nothing to do with a 2nd Amendment individual right to keep and bear arms depending on some imaginary connection to being a member of the militia.

Then why did the Miller court ask if the shotgun was suitable for use in a militia? Why even bring it up?

As Millier was not in a militia, why did that alone not settle the issue?

Heller at 554 U.S. 623:

Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons.

It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment.

The right only extends to certain types of weapons. What type of weapons the right extends to does not mean the right depends on membership in the militia. As the Court observed, "[i]t is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said."

Heller at 554 U.S. 621:

Justice Stevens places overwhelming reliance upon this Court’s decision in Miller, 307 U. S. 174. “[H]undreds of judges,” we are told, “have relied on the view of the Amendment we endorsed there,” post, at 638, and “[e]ven if the textual and historical arguments on both sides of the issue were evenly balanced, respect for the well-settled views of all of our predecessors on this Court, and for the rule of law itself . . . would prevent most jurists from endorsing such a dramatic upheaval in the law,” post, at 639. And what is, according to Justice Stevens, the holding of Miller that demands such obeisance? That the Second Amendment “protects the right to keep and bear arms for certain military purposes, but that it does not curtail the Legislature’s power to regulate the nonmilitary use and ownership of weapons.” Post, at 637.

Nothing so clearly demonstrates the weakness of Justice Stevens’ case. Miller did not hold that and cannot possibly be read to have held that. The judgment in the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court’s basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were “bear[ing] arms” not “for . . . military purposes” but for “nonmilitary use,” post, at 637. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.” 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added). “Certainly,” the Court continued, “it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.” Ibid. Beyond that, the opinion provided no explanation of the content of the right.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-07   21:17:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: nolu chan (#227)

As Millier was not in a militia, why did that alone not settle the issue?

Because the Miller case was about the weapon, not whether or not he was in the militia.

Let's say Miller and his friend transported a machine gun -- an obvious military weapon -- across state lines in violation of the 1934 National Firearms Act. As they did with the shotgun, let's say they challenged their arrest based on their claim that the second amendment protected military weapons. What would the U.S. Supreme Court have said?

As it was, the court didn't know if a sawed-off, double-barreled shotgun had military use, so they couldn't rule on it.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-08   12:00:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: misterwhite (#234)

Because the Miller case was about the weapon, not whether or not he was in the militia.

The Miller case decided that the type of weapon was not protected by the Second Amendment.

As it was, the court didn't know if a sawed-off, double-barreled shotgun had military use, so they couldn't rule on it.

Learn to read the court opinion. The Court did rule on it unanimously and upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236.

Heller at 554 U.S. 621-22:

The judgment in the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court’s basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were “bear[ing] arms” not “for . . . military purposes” but for “nonmilitary use,” post, at 637. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.” 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added).

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1900-1940/307us174

Question

Does the Second Amendment protect an individual's right to keep and bear a sawed-off double-barrel shotgun?

Conclusion

The Supreme Court reversed the district court, holding that the Second Amendment does not guarantee an individual the right to keep and bear a sawed-off double-barrel shotgun. Writing for the unanimous Court, Justice James Clark McReynolds reasoned that because possessing a sawed-off double barrel shotgun does not have a reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, the Second Amendment does not protect the possession of such an instrument.

The Miller court stated, "We are unable to accept the conclusion of the court below, and the challenged judgment must be reversed. The cause will bee remanded for further proceedings."

Jack Miller and Frank Layton were bank robbers and had an unregistered sawed-off shotgun. The Supreme Court reversed the District court, holding that the Second Amendment does not guarantee the right to keep and bear a sawed-off shotgun as a matter of law.

Jack Miller was killed by multiple gunshots on April 3, 1939. Frank Layton pleaded guilty on January 8, 1940 to the National Fireams Act charge which was reinstated by the U.S. Supreme Court.

There was no appearance by anyone for Miller and Layton. There was no presentation of evidence before the Court about whether a short barrelled shotgun was, or was not, common in military use. In the absence of evidence, the Court could not assume it was common in military use.

In Miller, the government argued that, the Second Amendment “refers to the militia, a protective force of government; to the collective body and not individual rights.” Brief for the United States at 21.

Heller established that the 2nd Amendment right is an individual right and not a collective right. Heller at 554 U.S. 592.

c. Meaning of the Operative Clause. Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed by the historical background of the Second Amendment.

Heller at 554 U.S. 623

Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons. It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Let's say Miller and his friend transported a machine gun -- an obvious military weapon -- across state lines in violation of the 1934 National Firearms Act. As they did with the shotgun, let's say they challenged their arrest based on their claim that the second amendment protected military weapons. What would the U.S. Supreme Court have said?

Violation of National Firearms Act. There is no Second Amendment privilege to keep and bear a machinegun.

As for the shotgun, it was a sawed-off or short barreled shotgun.

Miller at 307 U.S. 179,

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily, when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.

Citizens, called to service, were expected to appear bearing arms of the kind in common use at the time by citizens going about their business. Citizens called to service were not expected to show up with machineguns.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-08   22:16:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: nolu chan (#239)

The Miller case decided that the type of weapon was not protected by the Second Amendment.

No. They said they didn't know and didn't want to speculate and they remanded the case back to the lower court for clarification. They made no ruling on the case.

But their statement implied that if the weapon served no military purpose it wasn't protected by the second amendment.

"There is no Second Amendment privilege to keep and bear a machinegun."

But the Miller court concluded the second amendment protected those weapons suitable for use by a militia, did it not?

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-09   9:31:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: misterwhite (#246)

The Miller case decided that the type of weapon was not protected by the Second Amendment.

No. They said they didn't know and didn't want to speculate and they remanded the case back to the lower court for clarification. They made no ruling on the case.

U.S. Supreme Court, as quoted in my #239 to which you purport to respond, emphasis as in my #239.

Heller at 554 U.S. 621-22:

The judgment in the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal indictment for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court’s basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were “bear[ing] arms” not “for . . . military purposes” but for “nonmilitary use,” post, at 637. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.” 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added).

No shithead, they REVERSED the District court and remanded. They did not ask for clarification of jack shit.

From the Mandate:

And whereas, in the present term if October, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and thirty-eight, the said cause came on to be heard before the said SUPREME COURT, on the said transcript of record, and was argued by counsel:

On consideration whereof,

It is now here ordered and adjudged by this Court that the judgement of the said District Court, in this cause be, and the same is hereby, reversed.

AND IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that this cause be, and the same is hereby, remanded to the said District Court for further proceedings in conformity with the opinion of this court.

May 15, 1939

The U.S. Supreme Court did not ask for jack shit to be clarified. They REVERSED the judgment of the lower court, and ORDERED the District court to proceed in conformity with the opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court.

Co-Defendant Frank Layton pleaded guilty to the charges reinstated by the U.S. Supreme Court. Defendant Miller was dead and just stayed that way.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-10   14:52:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#264. To: nolu chan (#256)

they REVERSED the District court and remanded. They did not ask for clarification of jack shit.

Remand -- return a case to a lower court for reconsideration.

The U.S. Supreme Supreme Supreme Court wanted the District Court to reconsider whether the weapon had any usefulness in a militia. The U.S. Supreme Court was not provided with any facts that said it did.

"They REVERSED the judgment of the lower court, and ORDERED the District court to proceed in conformity with the opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court."

Bullshit. You're just making things up. If that were the case, the U.S. Supreme Court would have simply reversed the lower court ruling saying that the weapon didn't qualify for second amendment protection. Period.

They didn't do that because they didn't know that. And they said so.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-11   9:42:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#266. To: misterwhite (#264)

[misterwhite #264] Remand -- return a case to a lower court for reconsideration.

Reverse. To reverse a judgment means to overthrow it by contrary decision, make it void, undo or annul it for error.

Remand. To send back. The act of an appellate court when it sends a case back to the trial court and orders the trial court to conduct limited new hearings or an entirely new trial, or to take some further action.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

Reversal. as used in opinions, judgments, and mandates, the setting aside, annulling, vacating, or changing to the contrary the decision of a lower court or other body. [italics added]

Remand. to send back, as for further deliberation; to send back a matter to the tribunal [or body] from which it was appealed or move. When a judgment is reversed, the appellate court usually remands the matter for a new trial to be carried out consistent with the principles announced in its opinion. Often, the court will simply direct that "the matter remanded [to the lower court] for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion."

Law Dictionary, 2 Ed., Steven F. Gifis

The U.S. Supreme Court reversed the lower court ruling and eliminated the 2nd Amendment defense accepted by the lower court, reversed its judgment, reinstated the charges, and issued a mandate ordering the lower court to conduct forther proceedings not inconsistent with the Supreme Court opinion. The defendant, having no 2nd Amendment defense, pleaded guilty.

[misterwhite #264] You're just making things up. If that were the case, the U.S. Supreme Court would have simply reversed the lower court ruling saying that the weapon didn't qualify for second amendment protection. Period.

Miller found that there is no 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as sawed-off shotguns. Short barrel shotgun possession was illegal per the National Firearms Act.

See U.S. v. Fincher, 538 F.3d 368 (2008)

In discussing the limitations the government can place on an individual's right to possess firearms, the Court noted that Miller does not protect "weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns." Heller, 128 S.Ct. at 2815-16.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-11   15:35:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: nolu chan (#266)

Miller found that there is no 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as sawed-off shotguns

No it didn't. Miller found that there is no 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes the militia, such as sawed-off shotguns, unless it could be shown that sawed-off shotguns were useful to a militia.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-11   17:51:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#272. To: misterwhite (#270)

[misterwhite #268] Yeah, because the idiot appealed based on his second amendment collective right to keep and bear arms (ie., had some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia). Which, of course, he couldn't demonstrate.

- - - - - - - - - -

[misterwhite #269] So I can order a brand-new, full-auto M-16 from Colt as long as I pay the tax?

- - - - - - - - - -

[misterwhite #270] Miller found that there is no 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes the militia, such as sawed-off shotguns, unless it could be shown that sawed-off shotguns were useful to a militia.

- - - - - - - - - -

[misterwhite #271] And that opinion was that the second amendment only protected weapons suitable for use by a militia.

MISTERWHITE'S BULLSHIT GOES TO COURT, Chapter 2

Channel misterwhite, act accordingly, take your bullshit to court, go to prison.

Hollis Wayne Fincher argued "that he has the right to possess these weapons [a machinegun and a sawed-off shotgun] under the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution because his possession has some reasonable relationship to the maintenance of a well regulated militia."

As that was a matter a law, it was a matter for the judge to decide. The Court did not err in prohibiting Fincher from presenting such bullshit to the jury. Fincher presented his bullshit to the court, out of the presence of the jury, and the court found it to be bullshit. The court imposed concurrent sentences of 78 months imprisonment on each of two counts.

Channel misterwhite, act accordingly, take your bullshit to court, go to a well-regulated prison.

https://www.leagle.com/decision/infco20080813073

U.S. v. FINCHER

Nos. 07-2514, 07-2888.

538 F.3d 868 (2008)

UNITED STATES of America, Appellee, v. Hollis Wayne FINCHER, Appellant.

United States Court of Appeals, Eighth Circuit.

Submitted: March 10, 2008.

Filed: August 13, 2008.

Attorney(s) appearing for the Case

Quentin M. Rhoades, argued, Missoula, MT, for appellant.

Wendy L. Johnson, AUSA, argued, Fort Smith, AR, for appellee.

Before WOLLMAN, BOWMAN, and MELLOY, Circuit Judges.

WOLLMAN, Circuit Judge.

Hollis Wayne Fincher was convicted by a jury on one count of possession of a machine gun, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o), 924(a)(2), and one count of possession of an unregistered sawed-off shotgun, in violation of 26 U.S.C. §§ 5841, 5861(d), and 5871. Fincher does not dispute that he possessed these guns or that he did so without a license. He appeals his conviction, however, arguing that he has the right to possess these weapons under the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution because his possession has some reasonable relationship to the maintenance of a well regulated militia. Fincher also challenges the district court's determination that he is not eligible for court appointed counsel and challenges the district court's request to resentence him. We affirm the conviction and remand the issue of Fincher's eligibility for court appointed counsel to the district court for further inquiry.

I. Second Amendment

A. Background

Before Fincher's trial began, the government became aware of Fincher's intention

[538 F.3d 871]

to argue to the jury that his possession of guns was protected under the Second Amendment. Because that issue is a matter of law, the government filed a motion in limine asking the district court to prevent Fincher from arguing matters of law to the jury. After hearing oral argument on the motion, the district court granted the motion in part and denied it in part. In doing so, the district court stated that matters of law are "quintessentially within the province of the judge and not matters to be addressed to the jury." Nevertheless, the district court stated that it would allow Fincher to present evidence outside the presence of the jury that under United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 59 S.Ct. 816, 83 L.Ed. 1206 (1939), and United States v. Hale, 978 F.2d 1016 (8th Cir.1992), his possession of the guns was reasonably related to a well regulated militia.

At the close of the government's case, Fincher moved for judgment of acquittal. The district court denied the motion, stating that it was based on an attack on the law and not the evidence, and that under Hale, 978 F.2d 1016, the fact that a particular weapon may be susceptible to military use does not by itself establish a Second Amendment right to possess the weapon.

During his case-in-chief, Fincher presented his own testimony, which the district court heard in camera. Fincher testified that he possessed the guns as part of his membership in the Washington County Militia ("WCM"), an organization he helped found in 1994. He testified that the purpose of the WCM is to ensure the militia can operate as effectively militarily as possible in a time of state emergency and that the WCM has regular meetings and training sessions for its members. Fincher testified that between seven and nine individuals attend any given meeting of the WCM, though it is not always the same individuals in attendance. The WCM does not maintain a roster of its members or an inventory of weapons.

The WCM is not a secret organization. In fact, along with the other members of the WCM, Fincher wrote and sent letters to federal agencies via certified mail informing them of the WCM's existence and attempting to put them on notice that the WCM was lawful under state law. Fincher also sent at least one letter to the governor of Arkansas, informing him about the WCM, seeking approval, and stating that the governor's failure to object to the WCM's declaration would provide affirmation that the state of Arkansas did not object to the WCM. Fincher denied receiving a letter from the governor stating that the state records did not contain any reference to the WCM and that no such organization was registered with, or sanctioned by, the office of the governor or the state of Arkansas.

In addition to sending written notice of the WCM to various governmental offices, Fincher invited local sheriffs to view the WCM facilities and weapons. Fincher also told state officials that the WCM possessed machine guns, which the public could observe at any one of the three annual picnics sponsored by the WCM, and he showed the machine guns to at least one sheriff. Fincher also testified about how the weapons used by the WCM were chosen and stored, some at the WCM facility and others at the individual members' residences.

When asked about the procedures for activating the WCM in the case of an emergency, Fincher stated that if an emergency occurred while he was the commander of the WCM, he would contact "the sheriff if — if I was able, you know, depending on the emergency, or the governor, or probably any other — or maybe the mayor of a city or any — anyone or no one. If there was an emergency that had to be

[538 F.3d 872]

taken care of, we have the right to preserve life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. We have the duty to. You don't stand around and wait for someone to tell you you can protect your life or perform emergency medical assistance or put out a fire. These are natural offices of the people." He also testified that the state could call up the militia at any point, and that even though the written notices that WCM sent to various governmental offices did not contain any phone numbers or other direct contact information, the governor would know how to contact them.

The district court ruled that Fincher's proffered testimony would not be admitted because the WCM, despite its attempts to receive state recognition, was an unorganized and unregulated militia and therefore, as a matter of law, did not fall within the auspices of the Second Amendment. The district court also noted that even if the WCM was a state-sponsored or state-connected militia, there was no evidence that the person in charge of that militia would determine that possession of machine guns or sawed-off shotguns was necessary to the preservation of a well regulated militia.

B. Discussion

Fincher asserts that the district court erred by not allowing the jury to determine whether his possession of firearms was reasonably related to a well regulated militia and therefore protected by the Second Amendment. We review a district court's grant of a motion in limine for abuse of discretion, Robinson v. Potter, 453 F.3d 990, 995 (8th Cir.2006), and we accord it great deference on evidentiary rulings such as the admissibility of proffered testimony, United States v. Wilson, 103 F.3d 1402, 1406 (8th Cir.1997). We review de novo the district court's legal conclusions, such as whether possession of firearms in relation to membership in a non-state-sponsored militia is protected by the Second Amendment. United States v. Lippman, 369 F.3d 1039, 1043 (8th Cir. 2004).

The role of the jury is to decide facts, not legal issues. United States v. Peck, 161 F.3d 1171, 1174 (8th Cir.1998). Accordingly, the district court did not err in prohibiting Fincher from arguing or presenting evidence regarding a question of law to the jury.

We turn to the question whether the district court erred by concluding that Fincher's possession of the guns did not fall within the protection of the Second Amendment. We conclude that the district court's determination that the WCM was not affiliated with the state militia and therefore not subject to the protections of the Second Amendment under Miller and Hale is well supported by the record.

Fincher contends that our decision in Hale, 978 F.2d 1016, established an affirmative defense to the charge of unlawful possession of firearms. In Hale, we stated that the possession of firearms is not protected unless the possession bears a reasonable relationship to a well regulated militia. 978 F.2d at 1020; see also United States v. Pfeifer, 371 F.3d 430, 438 (8th Cir.2004) (citing Hale); United States v. Farrell, 69 F.3d 891, 894 (8th Cir.1995) (same). Although the WCM is not a secretive organization and has held relatively regular training sessions and meetings over the years, we stated in Hale that "'[t]echnical' membership in a state militia (e.g., membership in an 'unorganized' state militia) or membership in a non-governmental military organization is not sufficient to satisfy the 'reasonable relationship' test." Hale, 978 F.2d at 1020 (citing United States v. Oakes, 564 F.2d 384, 387 (10th Cir.1977)). In Arkansas, the state militia is defined as:

[538 F.3d 873]

(a) The militia shall be divided into two (2) parts: the organized, consisting of the active and inactive Army National Guard and Air National Guard; and the unorganized, consisting of all those persons of the militia not in the active or inactive Army National Guard or the Air National Guard.

(b) The militia shall consist of all able-bodied male residents of the state between the ages of seventeen (17) and forty-five (45) years who are, or intend to become, citizens of the United States, unless exempt by law, together with all other acceptable volunteers, waiving necessary requirements.

Ark.Code. Ann. § 12-61-101 (emphasis added). Thus, despite WCM's attempts to contact the governor's office and become an organized state militia, the district court correctly concluded that Fincher's testimony, even if believed by the jury, would not support his Second Amendment argument because Fincher is not a member of an organized state militia. Rather, Fincher's testimony established that the WCM was an "unorganized" militia because it is not the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard and is not formally connected with the state of Arkansas. Therefore, under Hale, Fincher's possession of firearms is, as a matter of law, not reasonably related to a well regulated militia and is thus not protected by the Second Amendment.

In reaching this conclusion, we have taken into account the Supreme Court's recent decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, ___ U.S. ___, 128 S.Ct. 2783, 171 L.Ed.2d 637 (2008),1 in which the Court held that the District of Columbia's complete prohibition on the possession of usable handguns in one's home violated the Second Amendment. Id. at 2817-18. In holding that the Second Amendment guarantees "the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation," Id. at 2797,2 the Court also stated that the right to possess firearms is not beyond the reach of all government regulation. Id. at 2799, 2816 ("Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.").

In discussing the limitations the government can place on an individual's right to possess firearms, the Court noted that Miller does not protect "weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns." Heller, 128 S.Ct. at 2815-16. The Court also articulated a nonexclusive list of what it viewed to be acceptable government regulation of firearms:

[T]he majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons

[538 F.3d 874]

and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those in common use at the time. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

Id. at 2816-17 (internal citations and footnote omitted).

Accordingly, under Heller, Fincher's possession of the guns is not protected by the Second Amendment. Machine guns are not in common use by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes and therefore fall within the category of dangerous and unusual weapons that the government can prohibit for individual use. Furthermore, Fincher has not directly attacked the federal registration requirements on firearms, and we doubt that any such attack would succeed in light of Heller. Accordingly, because Fincher's possession of guns is not protected by the Second Amendment, the district court did not abuse its discretion in preventing him from arguing otherwise to the jury.

II. Court Appointed Counsel

A. Background

The circumstances surrounding Fincher's court appointed counsel are fully recited in the district court's order, United States v. Fincher, No. 06-50064-001, 2007 WL 2177062 (W.D.Ark. July 27, 2007), and are largely undisputed by Fincher. For the purpose of our analysis, we will highlight the main facts.

Fincher was arrested on November 9, 2006, for violating 18 U.S.C. § 922(o). When he made his initial appearance later that day, he requested the appointment of an attorney because of his financial inability to retain counsel. He executed a "Financial Affidavit In Support of Request For Attorney or Other Court Services Without Payment Of Fee" ("the financial affidavit"), which indicated that he had no personal income, that his wife made $10.50 an hour, that he had $2,000 in savings, that he owned two vehicles of unknown value, one on which he was still making payments, and that he owned his home and 120 acres of real estate in Fayetteville, Arkansas, which had unknown value. Based upon that information, the district court appointed counsel to represent Fincher pursuant to the Criminal Justice Act.

On December 13, 2006, Fincher's appointed counsel withdrew because Fincher had retained other counsel. Thereafter, Fincher was convicted on both counts charged in the indictment. On March 8, 2007, Fincher informed the district court that he no longer had counsel and requested that counsel be appointed for him, which was done.

Before Fincher was sentenced, he executed a quitclaim deed conveying the 120 acres of real estate to his daughters in exchange for consideration of "One dollar ($1.00) and other good and valuable consideration," and reserving a life estate in the property for himself and his wife. Thereafter, the district court imposed concurrent sentences of 78 months' imprisonment on each count. Fincher was also subject to a fine of up to $250,000. Although the guidelines range called for a fine of between $12,500 and $125,000, the district court imposed a fine of only $1,000 under the belief that Fincher had no significant assets.

After sentencing, Fincher requested release on bond pending appeal. The district court conducted a hearing on the

[538 F.3d 875]

matter and agreed that Fincher could be released on $100,000 bond. Fincher indicated that he could not post bond in that amount. The district court noted that Fincher might be able to use his real estate to secure the bond, whereupon Fincher's daughters executed a mortgage for that purpose. As a result, the district court became aware that Fincher's property had significant value, and that Fincher had conveyed it to his daughters.

As a result of these circumstances, on July 3, 2007, the district court held an evidentiary hearing to determine Fincher's financial eligibility for court appointed counsel. The district court received testimony from Fincher, his wife, and his two daughters. The district court also requested that Fincher provide supporting documents, such as his contract with retained counsel and the deed transferring the real estate. In addition, the district court ordered an independent appraisal of the property, which estimated that it had a value of $455,000.

On July 27, 2007, the district court entered an order stating that Fincher "is not now, nor has he ever been at any time material to this proceeding, financially unable to obtain counsel to represent him in this proceeding and that appointments of counsel for him were improvidently made." Fincher, 2007 WL 2177062, at *10. Accordingly, the district court ordered Fincher to reimburse the United States Treasury $8,357.55 for the legal services provided to him by the attorneys appointed under the Criminal Justice Act. Id.

B. Discussion

Fincher asserts that the district court's July 27, 2007, order revoking his eligibility for court appointed counsel should be reversed because he did not misrepresent the value of his real estate when he stated that the value was unknown. He also challenges the appraised value of the property and the district court's conclusion that he owns the property free and clear. Fincher asserts that he was subjectively unaware of the value of the property when he filled out the affidavit, that the property is not worth nearly as much as the appraised value because it is landlocked, and that he owned it as a joint tenant with his wife. Fincher further contends that the transfer of the property to his daughters was legitimate because he informed the Assistant United States Attorney who was working on the case about the transfer.

The Criminal Justice Act provides a framework for ensuring that individuals who are financially unable to afford defense counsel are provided counsel as required by the Sixth Amendment. United States v. Brockman, 183 F.3d 891, 897 (8th Cir.1999). The Act requires that each United States district court create "a plan for furnishing representation for any person financially unable to obtain adequate representation...." 18 U.S.C. § 3006A(a). A person is eligible for court appointed counsel if, after the United States magistrate judge or court conducts an "appropriate inquiry," the court is satisfied that "the person is financially unable to obtain counsel." 18 U.S.C. § 3006A(b). Financial inability to obtain counsel is not the same as being indigent or destitute, but the defendant has the burden of establishing that he or she is financially unable to obtain counsel. Brockman, 183 F.3d at 897; Museitef v. United States, 131 F.3d 714, 716 (8th Cir.1997). "If at any time after the appointment of counsel the United States magistrate judge or the court finds that the person is financially able to obtain counsel or to make partial payment for the representation, it may terminate the appointment of counsel or authorize payment as provided in subsection (f), as the interests of justice may dictate." 18 U.S.C. § 3006A(c); see also 18 U.S.C. § 3006A(f) ("Whenever the United States

[538 F.3d 876]

magistrate judge or the court finds that funds are available for payment from or on behalf of a person furnished representation, it may authorize or direct that such funds be paid...."); Museitef, 131 F.3d at 715.

Thus, our review of the district court's determination of financial eligibility for court appointed counsel is a three-step process. See United States v. Parker, 439 F.3d 81, 92 (2d Cir.2006) (reviewing district court's mid-case appointment of counsel). We must ask, (1) whether the district court conducted an "appropriate inquiry" into the defendant's financial eligibility, (2) whether the district court correctly determined the defendant's financial eligibility, and (3) whether the district court erred when it weighed the "interests of justice." Id. at 92-93. Because we ultimately remand this issue to the district court for further review, we reach only the first of these three questions.

To determine a defendant's financial eligibility, the district court should make a "full inquiry" into the defendant's actual ability to retain counsel. Museitef, 131 F.3d at 716. A full-scale adversarial hearing is not required, however, before a district court may order repayment of attorney's fees under the Criminal Justice Act. United States v. Vale, 140 Fed.Appx. 302, 303 (2d Cir.2005) (unpublished opinion) (citing United States v. Crosby, 602 F.2d 24, 28 (2d Cir.1979)); see also Parker, 439 F.3d at 93 ("The task necessarily varies with the circumstances presented, and no one method or combination of methods is required." (internal quotation omitted)). We review de novo the adequacy of the district court's inquiry. Parker, 439 F.3d at 93 n. 12.

In this case, the district court's initial inquiry was based upon the financial affidavit submitted by Fincher. See id. at 93 (noting that in some cases the court's inquiry may be limited to the defendant's statements on the financial affidavit). Based upon the limited information available at that time, the district court did not err in appointing counsel for Fincher. Brockman, 183 F.3d at 897 (any doubt about the defendant's eligibility for court appointed counsel should be resolved in the defendant's favor); United States v. Cohen, 419 F.2d 1124, 1127 (8th Cir.1969) (district court's determination that defendant was ineligible for court appointed counsel based upon the ownership of real estate with an unknown value and without a more searching inquiry was error).

Although a district court should investigate information contained in an affidavit when the information provided renders the defendant's eligibility questionable, the district court's initial determination of eligibility can be amended when new information comes to light. See In re Boston Herald, Inc., 321 F.3d 174, 179 (1st Cir.2003) (erroneous eligibility determinations can be corrected at a later time). In this case, the district court became aware of the fact that Fincher's property had significant value when it was mortgaged to secure Fincher's $100,000 bond and Fincher testified that he knew that property in the same area had recently sold for between $2,000 and $4,000 an acre. This new information was sufficient to warrant a reexamination of Fincher's eligibility.3

[538 F.3d 877]

Fincher argues that the district court erred in determining that he was not eligible for court appointed counsel because the district court did not take into consideration the fact that the property is landlocked and therefore is not as valuable as the appraisal indicates. Fincher testified at the hearing, however, that the property is located one mile off a public road and that there is an unpaved road that goes directly to the property. Fincher also informed the district court that the property has a right-of-way that, although not currently used, is attached to ownership of the property. Furthermore, it is undisputed that Fincher and his wife currently reside on the property, suggesting that the property is not in fact inaccessible. The appraisal acknowledges that any ingress and egress to the property would need to be improved, as the current road is not paved. Accordingly, we conclude that the district court did not err in accepting as accurate the appraiser's opinion that the property had a value of $455,000, which falls within Fincher's estimate that the property is worth between $2,000 and $4,000 an acre.

Fincher argues for the first time on appeal that because he owned the property as a joint tenant with his wife, he did not own it free and clear, and that the district court therefore erred by concluding otherwise. This late-raised assertion is directly contradicted, however, by the testimony of Fincher's daughter, who testified that Fincher's name is the sole one on the title. Furthermore, Fincher's wife testified that she did not know if she had ever been deeded any portion of the property. Although the quit claim deed that transferred the property to Fincher's daughters in early 2007 recites that Fincher and his wife each owned an undivided one-half interest in the property as tenants in common, there is no evidence in the record that Fincher and his wife owned the property as joint tenants. Accordingly, the district court did not err when it found that Fincher owned the property free and clear because Fincher has not established that there are any mortgages or liens on the property.

Regarding Fincher's transfer of the property to his daughters via quit claim deed, we conclude that Fincher's letter to the Assistant United States Attorney regarding the transfer of the property does not insulate the transfer from later question. Testimony at the evidentiary hearing from Fincher, his wife, and his two daughters, as well as the letter sent to the AUSA, all indicate that the property was transferred after Fincher's conviction to avoid the possibility of the property being sold to pay any fine imposed by the district court as part of Fincher's sentence. Accordingly, the district court did not err in concluding that the attempted transfer of the property should be considered when determining Fincher's eligibility for court appointed counsel.

Despite these conclusions and the fact that the district court conducted a more thorough inquiry into Fincher's eligibility in July 2007 than it did initially, the district court's analysis leaves factual questions unanswered. Thus, we remand this issue to the district court for further consideration of whether Fincher's wife has any ownership in the property and, if so, whether that affects Fincher's ownership of the property or the application of the Arkansas Homestead Exemption. Specifically, the district court must consider whether the entire 120 acres of real estate is protected by the Homestead Exemption, making Fincher eligible for court appointed counsel despite his ownership of the property, or whether the exemption protects

[538 F.3d 878]

only a portion of the real estate. See Ark.Code Ann. § 16-66-210; see also United States v. Trevino, 679 F.Supp. 636, 636 (S.D.Tex.1987) (doubting that defendants should have to sell their homestead to appeal criminal conviction); Perry v. Chief of Police of City of Marianna, Ark., 660 F.Supp. 1546, 1552 (E.D.Ark.1987) (in determining indigency, defendant should not be required to sell his inexpensive car or his home).4 Additionally, the district court should consider whether Fincher has the current ability to reimburse the United States Treasury for the legal services he received in light of the transfer of the real estate to Fincher's daughters.

III. IFP Status on Appeal

We turn next to Fincher's request for in forma pauperis ("IFP") status on appeal. Because we remand to the district court for further review the issue of Fincher's eligibility for court appointed counsel, we do not reach this issue. Nevertheless, Fincher's IFP status on appeal is dependent upon his eligibility for court appointed counsel at the trial level. If the district court concludes that Fincher is eligible for court appointed counsel and therefore should not be required to reimburse the cost of the legal services he received, and Fincher's financial circumstances do not change between the time of the district court and the appellate court proceedings, he should be granted IFP status on appeal. See United States v. Danielson, 325 F.3d 1054, 1077 (9th Cir.2003) (court appointed counsel continues on appeal unless defendant's financial situation changes and he or she is no longer financially eligible).

IV. Sentencing

On the basis of its conclusion that Fincher misrepresented his financial eligibility for court appointed counsel, the district court seeks a remand for resentencing. In light of our conclusion that the district court must conduct a more searching inquiry into Fincher's eligibility for court appointed counsel, we decline the request for remand. Moreover, it is questionable whether we have jurisdiction to remand in the absence of an appeal or cross-appeal from the government, or whether the district court has jurisdiction to resentence a defendant in the absence of statutory authority to do so. See Greenlaw v. United States, ___ U.S. ___, 128 S.Ct. 2559, 171 L.Ed.2d 399 (2008) (holding that a circuit court cannot increase a defendant's sentence without a government appeal or cross-appeal); United States v. Ross, 245 F.3d 577, 585-86 (6th Cir.2001) (district court may not resentence defendant without statutory authority); see also United States v. Sadler, 234 F.3d 368, 373-74 (8th Cir.2000) (a district court's "change of heart as to the appropriateness of the sentence, rather than a correction in the application of the guidelines," is not the type of "clear error" that can be corrected under Rule 35(c) (internal quotation and citation omitted)); cf. United States v. Fortino, No. 07-3476, 2008 WL 2388893, ___ Fed.

[538 F.3d 879]

Appx. ____ (8th Cir. June 13, 2008) (per curiam).

V. Conclusion

The conviction is affirmed. The order directing Fincher to reimburse the United States Treasury $8,357.55 for the legal services he received pursuant to the Criminal Justice Act is vacated and the case is remanded the district court for further proceedings consistent with the views set forth in this opinion.

FootNotes

1. At trial, Fincher's Second Amendment argument focused on his claim of right to possess the guns because they are military weapons and he is a member of the militia and not a claim of an individual right to possess a machine gun or unregistered sawed-off shotgun. Nevertheless, we think it is clear that even if Fincher had made the latter argument at trial, his possession of the guns is not protected under Heller.

2. We note that the Supreme Court did not address the question whether the Second Amendment is incorporated through the Fourteenth Amendment and thus applicable to the states.

3. In its July 27, 2007, order, the district court noted that it should have conducted a investigation beyond Fincher's financial affidavit before it initially appointed him counsel. Fincher, 2007 WL 2177062, at *7. Nevertheless, the district court reasoned that the defendant has the burden of establishing financial eligibility for court appointed counsel and that Fincher did not meet this burden and in fact misrepresented his financial eligibility by listing the 120 acres as having an unknown value when, in fact, he knew that real estate in the same area had recently sold for between $2,000 and $4,000 an acre. See id. (citing United States v. Lefkowitz, 125 F.3d 608 (8th Cir.1997)).

4. Generally, cases in which a defendant's ineligibility for court appointed counsel has been affirmed are based upon the defendant's income and cash flow, not a requirement that the defendant sell his homestead to facilitate the payment of defense costs. See, e.g., Lefkowitz, 125 F.3d at 621 (defendant had recently spent several hundred thousand dollars on other attorney's fees and personal expenses and district court found defendant's own testimony of indigence to be lacking credibility); United States v. Harris, 707 F.2d 653, 661 (2d Cir. 1983) (district court found that defendant had "substantial income" in the past two years and might have had other undisclosed income); United States v. Wetzel, 488 F.2d 153, 157 (8th Cir. 1973) (affirming reimbursement order (for about $350) because defendant received $19,000 for the sale of cattle and owned real estate (the opinion provides no indication that the real estate was defendant's homestead)).

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-12   14:11:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#275. To: nolu chan (#272)

Fincher's "militia" did not meet the criteria of a "well-regulated state militia with officers appointed by the state". Horrible case example.

I would call it a "posse" at best.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-13   18:38:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#278. To: misterwhite (#275)

[misterwhite #275] Fincher's "militia" did not meet the criteria of a "well-regulated state militia with officers appointed by the state". Horrible case example.

Convicted. 78 months.

Only enlistment or commission in the National Guard would meet the requisite militia definition. The court opined Fincher would have lost on an individual right argument as well. Civilians, to include those enrolled in the unorganized militia, have no right to possess an unlicensed machinegun.

From Fincher, supra.

Hollis Wayne Fincher was convicted by a jury on one count of possession of a machine gun, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o), 924(a)(2), and one count of possession of an unregistered sawed-off shotgun, in violation of 26 U.S.C. §§ 5841, 5861(d), and 5871. Fincher does not dispute that he possessed these guns or that he did so without a license. He appeals his conviction, however, arguing that he has the right to possess these weapons under the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution because his possession has some reasonable relationship to the maintenance of a well regulated militia.

[...]

In Arkansas, the state militia is defined as:

(a) The militia shall be divided into two (2) parts: the organized, consisting of the active and inactive Army National Guard and Air National Guard; and the unorganized, consisting of all those persons of the militia not in the active or inactive Army National Guard or the Air National Guard.

[...]

Accordingly, under Heller, Fincher's possession of the guns is not protected by the Second Amendment. Machine guns are not in common use by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes and therefore fall within the category of dangerous and unusual weapons that the government can prohibit for individual use. Furthermore, Fincher has not directly attacked the federal registration requirements on firearms, and we doubt that any such attack would succeed in light of Heller. Accordingly, because Fincher's possession of guns is not protected by the Second Amendment, the district court did not abuse its discretion in preventing him from arguing otherwise to the jury.

[...]

FootNotes

1. At trial, Fincher's Second Amendment argument focused on his claim of right to possess the guns because they are military weapons and he is a member of the militia and not a claim of an individual right to possess a machine gun or unregistered sawed-off shotgun. Nevertheless, we think it is clear that even if Fincher had made the latter argument at trial, his possession of the guns is not protected under Heller.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-14   10:28:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#282. To: nolu chan (#278)

Only enlistment or commission in the National Guard would meet the requisite militia definition.

Again, we have to go back. What was the original intent of the second amendment?

It was added to the Bill of Rights to protect state militias from federal infringement. Anything the federal government did that interfered with or obstructed the state from organizing and arming their citizen militia was unconstitutional.

Period. End of story. That's the way it was for hundreds of years. Until, of course, Heller.

Screw the National Guard … the "organized" and "unorganized" militia … the "active" and "inactive" militia. Weasel words used because you're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole with your stupid Heller and McDonald decisions.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-06-14   10:42:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 282.

#286. To: misterwhite (#282)

[misterwhite #282]

Again, we have to go back. What was the original intent of the second amendment?

It was added to the Bill of Rights to protect state militias from federal infringement. Anything the federal government did that interfered with or obstructed the state from organizing and arming their citizen militia was unconstitutional.

Period. End of story. That's the way it was for hundreds of years. Until, of course, Heller.

Screw the National Guard … the "organized" and "unorganized" militia … the "active" and "inactive" militia. Weasel words used because you're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole with your stupid Heller and McDonald decisions.

Once again, a lot of truly ignorant noise with no research or knowledge of the subject matter. In Heller' fault, because — Benghazi.

The militia was reorganized into the National Guard in 1903, 105 years before Heller.

And Heller and McDonald are the law of the land.

32 Stat. 775, The Dick Act of 21 January 1903, an Act to promote the efficiency of the militia, and for other purposes.

CHAP. 196.—An Act To promote the efficiency of the militia, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House ofRepresentatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the militia shall consist of every able-bodied male citizen of the respective States, Territories, and the District of Columbia, and every able bodied male of foreign birth who has declared his intention to become a citizen, who is more than eighteen and less than forty-five years of age, and shall be divided into two classes—the organized militia, to be known as the National Guard of the State, Territory, or District of Columbia, or by such other designations as may be given them by the laws of the respective States or Territories, and the remainder to be known as the Reserve Militia.

The National Guard was Federalized in 1916, 92 years before Heller.

39 Stat. 188, 211; National Defense Act of 3 Jun 1916 § 111,

SEC. 111. NATIONAL GUARD WHEN DRAFTED INTO FEDERAL SERVICE.When Congress shall have authorized the use of the armed forces of the United States, for any purpose requiring the use of troops in excess of those of the Regular Army, the President may, under such regulations, including such physical examination, as he may prescribe, draft into the military service of the United States, to serve therein for the period of the war unless sooner discharged, any or all members of the National Guard and of the National Guard Reserve. All persons so drafted shall, from the date of their draft, stand discharged from the militia, and shall from said date be subject to such laws and regulations for the government of the Army of the United States as may be applicable to members of the Volunteer Army, and shall be embodied in organizations corresponding as far as practicable to those of the Regular Army or shall be otherwise assigned as the President may direct. The commissioned officers of said organizations shall be appointed from among the members thereof, officers with rank not above that of colonel to be appointed by the President alone, and all, other officers to be appointed by the President by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. Officers and enlisted men in the service of the United States under the terms of this section shall have the same pay and allowances as officers and enlisted men of the Regular Army of the same grades and the same prior service.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-14 11:32:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#315. To: misterwhite (#282)

[misterwhite #241] That's like saying we have an "active" National Guard (those deployed overseas) and an "inactive" National Guard (those at home).

[ROTFLMAO]

- - - - - - - - - -

[nolu chan #278] Only enlistment or commission in the National Guard would meet the requisite militia definition.

[misterwhite #282] Again, we have to go back. What was the original intent of the second amendment?

It was added to the Bill of Rights to protect state militias from federal infringement. Anything the federal government did that interfered with or obstructed the state from organizing and arming their citizen militia was unconstitutional.

Period. End of story. That's the way it was for hundreds of years. Until, of course, Heller.

Screw the National Guard … the "organized" and "unorganized" militia … the "active" and "inactive" militia. Weasel words used because you're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole with your stupid Heller and McDonald decisions.

MISTERWHITE'S BULLSHIT GOES TO COURT, Chapter 6

The history and straight skinny on how the U.S. National Guard and State National Guards are organized.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/496/334/case.html

Perpich v. DOD, 496 US 334 (1990) UNANIMOUS 9-0

U.S. Supreme Court

Perpich v. Department of Defense, 496 U.S. 334 (1990)

No. 89-542

Argued March 27, 542

Decided June 11, 1990

496 U.S. 334

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR

THE EIGHTH CIRCUIT

Syllabus

Since 1933, federal law has provided that persons enlisting in a state National Guard unit simultaneously enlist in the National Guard of the United States, a part of the Army. The enlistees retain their status as state Guard members unless and until ordered to active federal duty, and revert to state status upon being relieved from federal service. The authority to order the Guard to federal duty was limited to periods of national emergency until 1952, when Congress broadly authorized orders "to active duty or active duty for training" without any emergency requirement, but provided that such orders could not be issued without the consent of the governor of the State concerned. After two State Governors refused to consent to federal training missions abroad for their Guard units, the gubernatorial consent requirement was partially repealed in 1986 by the "Montgomery Amendment," which provides that a governor cannot withhold consent with regard to active duty outside the United States because of any objection to the location, purpose, type, or schedule of such duty. Petitioner, Governor of Minnesota, filed a complaint for injunctive relief, alleging, inter alia, that the Montgomery Amendment had prevented him from withholding his consent to a 1987 federal training mission in Central America for certain members of the state Guard, and that the Amendment violates the Militia Clauses of Article I, § 8, of the Constitution, which authorize Congress to provide for (1) calling forth the militia to execute federal law, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions, and (2) organizing, arming, disciplining, and governing such part of the militia as may be employed in the federal service, reserving to the States the appointment of officers and the power to train the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress. The District Court rejected the Governor's challenge, holding that the federal Guard was created pursuant to Congress' Article I, § 8, power to raise and support armies; that the fact that Guard units also have an identity as part of the state militia does not limit Congress' plenary authority to train the units as it sees fit when the Guard is called to active federal service; and that, accordingly, the Constitution neither required the gubernatorial veto nor prohibited its withdrawal. The Court of Appeals affirmed.

496 U. S. 335

Held: Article I's plain language, read as a whole, establishes that Congress may authorize members of the National Guard of the United States to be ordered to active federal duty for purposes of training outside the United States without either the consent of a state governor or the declaration of a national emergency. Pp. 496 U. S. 347-355.

(a) The unchallenged validity of the dual enlistment system means that Guard members lose their state status when called to active federal duty, and, if that duty is a training mission, the training is performed by the Army. During such periods, the second Militia Clause is no longer applicable. Pp. 496 U. S. 347-349.

(b) This view of the constitutional issue was presupposed by the Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U. S. 366, 245 U. S. 375, 245 U. S. 377, 245 U. S. 381-384, which held that the Militia Clauses do not constrain Congress' Article I, § 8, powers to provide for the common defense, raise and support armies, make rules for the governance of the Armed Forces, and enact necessary and proper laws for such purposes, but in fact provide additional grants of power to Congress. Pp. 496 U. S. 349-351.

(c) This interpretation merely recognizes the supremacy of federal power in the military affairs area, and does not significantly affect either the State's basic training responsibility or its ability to rely on its own Guard in state emergency situations. Pp. 496 U. S. 351-352.

(d) In light of the exclusivity of federal power over many aspects of military affairs, See Tarble's Case, 13 Wall. 397, the powers allowed to the States by existing statutes are significant. Pp. 496 U. S. 353-354.

(e) Thus, the Montgomery Amendment is not inconsistent with the Militia Clauses. Since the original gubernatorial veto was not constitutionally compelled, its partial repeal by the Amendment is constitutionally valid. Pp. 496 U. S. 354-355.

880 F.2d 11 (CA 8 1989), affirmed.

STEVENS, J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court.

496 U. S. 336

Justice STEVENS delivered the opinion of the Court.

The question presented is whether the Congress may authorize the President to order members of the National Guard to active duty for purposes of training outside the United States during peacetime without either the consent of a state governor or the declaration of a national emergency.

A gubernatorial consent requirement that had been enacted in 1952 [Footnote 1] was partially repealed in 1986 by the "Montgomery Amendment," which provides:

496 U. S. 337

"The consent of a Governor described in subsections (b) and (d) may not be withheld (in whole or in part) with regard to active duty outside the United States, its territories, and its possessions, because of any objection to the location, purpose, type, or schedule of such active duty. [Footnote 2]"

In this litigation, the Governor of Minnesota challenges the constitutionality of that Amendment. He contends that it violates the Militia Clauses of the Constitution. [Footnote 3]

496 U. S. 338

In his complaint, the Governor alleged that, pursuant to a state statute, the Minnesota National Guard is the organized militia of the State of Minnesota, and that, pursuant to a federal statute, members of that militia

"are also members of either the Minnesota unit of the Air National Guard of the United States or the Minnesota unit of the Army National Guard of the United States (hereinafter collectively referred to as the 'National Guard of the United States')."

App. 5. The complaint further alleged that the Montgomery Amendment had prevented the Governor from withholding his consent to a training mission in Central America for certain members of the Minnesota National Guard in January, 1987, and prayed for an injunction against the implementation of any similar orders without his consent.

The District Judge rejected the Governor's challenge. He explained that the National Guard consists of

"two overlapping, but legally distinct, organizations. Congress, under its constitutional authority to 'raise and support armies' has created the National Guard of the United States, a federal organization comprised of state national guard units and their members."

666 F.Supp. 1319, 1320 (Minn.1987). [Footnote 4] The fact that these units also maintain an identity as

496 U. S. 339

state national guards, part of the militia described in Art. I, § 8, of the Constitution, does not limit Congress' plenary authority to train the Guard "as it sees fit when the Guard is called to active federal service." Id. at 1324. He therefore concluded that

"the gubernatorial veto found in §§ 672(b) and 672(d) is not constitutionally required. Having created the gubernatorial veto as an accommodation to the states, rather than pursuant to a constitutional mandate, the Congress may withdraw the veto without violating the Constitution."

Ibid.

A divided panel of the Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit reached a contrary conclusion. It read the Militia Clause as preserving state authority over the training of the National Guard and its membership unless and until Congress "determined that there was some sort of exigency or extraordinary need to exert federal power." App. to Pet. for Cert. A92. Only in that event could the Army Power dissipate the authority reserved to the States under the Militia Clauses.

In response to a petition for rehearing en banc, the Court of Appeals vacated the panel decision and affirmed the judgment of the District Court. Over the dissent of two judges, the en banc court agreed with the District Court's conclusion that "Congress' army power is plenary and exclusive" and that the State's authority to train the militia did not conflict with congressional power to raise armies for the common defense and to control the training of federal reserve forces. 880 F.2d 11, 17-18 (1989).

Because of the manifest importance of the issue, we granted the Governor's petition for certiorari. 493 U.S. 1017 (1990). In the end, we conclude that the plain language

496 U. S. 340

of Article I of the Constitution, read as whole, requires affirmance of the Court of Appeals' judgment. We believe, however, that a brief description of the evolution of the present statutory scheme will help to explain that holding.

I

Two conflicting themes, developed at the Constitutional Convention and repeated in debates over military policy during the next century, led to a compromise in the text of the Constitution and in later statutory enactments. On the one hand, there was a widespread fear that a national standing Army posed an intolerable threat to individual liberty and to the sovereignty of the separate States, [Footnote 5] while, on the other hand, there was a recognition of the danger of relying on inadequately trained soldiers as the primary means of providing for the common defense. [Footnote 6] Thus, Congress was authorized both to raise and support a national army and also to organize "the Militia."

496 U. S. 341

In the early years of the Republic, Congress did neither. In 1792, it did pass a statute that purported to establish "an Uniform Militia throughout the United States," but its detailed command that every able-bodied male citizen between the ages of 18 and 45 be enrolled therein and equip himself with appropriate weaponry [Footnote 7] was virtually ignored for more than a century, during which time the militia proved to be a decidedly unreliable fighting force. [Footnote 8] The statute was finally repealed in 1901. [Footnote 9] It was in that year that President Theodore Roosevelt declared, "Our militia law is obsolete and worthless." [Footnote 10] The process of transforming "the National

496 U. S. 342

Guard of the several States" into an effective fighting force then began.

The Dick Act divided the class of able-bodied male citizens between 18 and 45 years of age into an "organized militia" to be known as the National Guard of the several States, and the remainder of which was then described as the "reserve militia," and which later statutes have termed the "unorganized militia." The statute created a table of organization for the National Guard conforming to that of the Regular Army, and provided that federal funds and Regular Army instructors should be used to train its members. [Footnote 11] It is undisputed that Congress was acting pursuant to the Militia Clauses of the Constitution in passing the Dick Act. Moreover, the legislative history of that Act indicates that Congress contemplated that the services of the organized militia would "be rendered only upon the soil of the United States or of its Territories." H.R.Rep.No. 1094, 57th Cong., 1st Sess., 22 (1902). In 1908, however, the statute was amended to provide

496 U. S. 343

expressly that the Organized Militia should be available for service "either within or without the territory of the United States." [Footnote 12]

When the Army made plans to invoke that authority by using National Guard units south of the Mexican border, Attorney General Wickersham expressed the opinion that the Militia Clauses precluded such use outside the Nation's borders. [Footnote 13] In response to that opinion and to the widening conflict in Europe, in 1916 Congress decided to "federalize" the National Guard. [Footnote 14] In addition to providing for greater federal control and federal funding of the Guard, the statute required every guardsman to take a dual oath -- to support the Nation as well as the States, and to obey the President as well as the Governor -- and authorized the President to draft members of the Guard into federal service. The statute expressly provided that the Army of the United States should include not only "the Regular Army" but also "the National

496 U. S. 344

Guard while in the service of the United States," [Footnote 15] and that, when drafted into federal service by the President, members of the Guard so drafted should "from the date of their draft, stand discharged from the militia, and shall from said date be subject to" the rules and regulations governing the Regular Army. § 111, 39 Stat. 211.

During World War I, the President exercised the power to draft members of the National Guard into the Regular Army. That power, as well as the power to compel civilians to render military service, was upheld in the Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U. S. 366 (1918). [Footnote 16] Specifically, in that case, and in Cox v. Wood, 247 U. S. 3 (1918), the Court held that the plenary power to raise armies was "not qualified or restricted by the provisions of the militia clause." [Footnote 17]

496 U. S. 345

The draft of the individual members of the National Guard into the Army during World War I virtually destroyed the Guard as an effective organization. The draft terminated the members' status as militiamen, and the statute did not provide for a restoration of their prewar status as members of the Guard when they were mustered out of the Army. This problem was ultimately remedied by the 1933 amendments to the 1916 Act. Those amendments created the "two overlapping but distinct organizations" described by the District Court -- the National Guard of the various States and the National Guard of the United States.

Since 1933, all persons who have enlisted in a state National Guard unit have simultaneously enlisted in the National Guard of the United States. In the latter capacity, they became a part of the Enlisted Reserve Corps of the Army, but, unless and until ordered to active duty in the Army, they retained their status as members of a separate state Guard unit. Under the 1933 Act, they could be ordered into active service whenever Congress declared a national emergency and authorized the use of troops in excess of those in the Regular Army. The statute plainly described the effect of such an order:

"All persons so ordered into the active military service of the United States shall from the date of such order stand relieved from duty in the National Guard of their respective States, Territories, and the District of Columbia so long as they shall remain in the active military service of the United States, and during such time shall be subject

496 U. S. 346

to such laws and regulations for the government of the Army of the United States as may be applicable to members of the Army whose permanent retention in active military service is not contemplated by law. The organization of said units existing at the date of the order into active Federal service shall be maintained intact insofar as practicable."

§ 18, 48 Stat. 160-161.

"Upon being relieved from active duty in the military service of the United States all individuals and units shall thereupon revert to their National Guard status."

Id. at 161. Thus, under the "dual enlistment" provisions of the statute that have been in effect since 1933, a member of the Guard who is ordered to active duty in the federal service is thereby relieved of his or her status in the state Guard for the entire period of federal service.

Until 1952, the statutory authority to order National Guard units to active duty was limited to periods of national emergency. In that year, Congress broadly authorized orders to "active duty or active duty for training" without any emergency requirement, but provided that such orders could not be issued without gubernatorial consent. The National Guard units have under this plan become a sizeable portion of the Nation's military forces; for example, "the Army National Guard provides 46 percent of the combat units and 28 percent of the support forces of the Total Army." [Footnote 18] Apparently, gubernatorial consents to training missions were routinely obtained until 1985, when the Governor of California refused to consent to a training mission for 450 members of the California National Guard in Honduras, and the Governor of Maine shortly thereafter refused to consent to a similar mission. Those incidents led to the enactment of the Montgomery Amendment, and this litigation ensued.

496 U. S. 347

II

The Governor's attack on the Montgomery Amendment relies in part on the traditional understanding that "the Militia" can only be called forth for three limited purposes that do not encompass either foreign service or nonemergency conditions, and in part on the express language in the Militia Clause reserving to the States "the Authority of training the Militia." The Governor does not, however, challenge the authority of Congress to create a dual enlistment program. [Footnote 19] Nor does the Governor claim that membership in a state Guard unit -- or any type of state militia -- creates any sort of constitutional immunity from being drafted into the federal armed forces. Indeed, it would be ironic to claim such immunity when every member of the Minnesota National Guard has voluntarily enlisted, or accepted a commission as an officer, in the National Guard of the United States, and thereby become a member of the reserve corps of the Army.

The unchallenged validity of the dual enlistment system means that the members of the National Guard of Minnesota who are ordered into federal service with the National Guard of the United States lose their status as members of the State militia during their period of active duty. If that duty is a training mission, the training is performed by the Army in which the trainee is serving, not by the militia from which the member has been temporarily disassociated.

"Each member of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States who is ordered to active duty is relieved from duty in the National Guard of his State or Territory, or of Puerto Rico or the District of Columbia, as

496 U. S. 348

the case may be, from the effective date of his order to active duty until he is relieved from that duty."

32 U.S.C. § 325(a).

This change in status is unremarkable in light of the traditional understanding of the militia as a part-time, nonprofessional fighting force. In Dunne v. People, 94 Ill. 120 (1879), the Illinois Supreme Court expressed its understanding of the term "militia" as follows:

"Lexicographers and others define militia, and so the common understanding is, to be 'a body of armed citizens trained to military duty, who may be called out in certain cases, but may not be kept on service like standing armies, in time of peace.' That is the case as to the active militia of this State. The men comprising it come from the body of the militia, and when not engaged at stated periods in drilling and other exercises, they return to their usual avocations, as is usual with militia, and are subject to call when the public exigencies demand it."

Id. at 138. Notwithstanding the brief periods of federal service, the members of the state Guard unit continue to satisfy this description of a militia. In a sense, all of them now must keep three hats in their closets -- a civilian hat, a state militia hat, and an army hat -- only one of which is worn at any particular time. When the state militia hat is being worn, the "drilling and other exercises" referred to by the Illinois Supreme Court are performed pursuant to "the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress," but, when that hat is replaced by the federal hat, the Militia Clause is no longer applicable.

This conclusion is unaffected by the fact that, prior to 1952, Guard members were traditionally not ordered into active service in peacetime or for duty abroad. That tradition is at least partially the product of political debate and political

496 U. S. 349

compromise, but, even if the tradition were compelled by the text of the Constitution, its constitutional aspect is related only to service by state Guard personnel who retain their state affiliation during their periods of service. There now exists a wholly different situation, in which the state affiliation is suspended in favor of an entirely federal affiliation during the period of active duty.

This view of the constitutional issue was presupposed by our decision in the Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U. S. 366 (1918). Although the Governor is correct in pointing out that those cases were decided in the context of an actual war, the reasoning in our opinion was not so limited. After expressly noting that the 1916 Act had incorporated members of the National Guard into the National Army, the Court held that the Militia Clauses do not constrain the powers of Congress "to provide for the common Defence," to "raise and support Armies," to "make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces," or to enact such laws as "shall be necessary and proper" for executing those powers. 245 U.S. at 245 U. S. 375, 245 U. S. 377. The Court instead held that, far from being a limitation on those powers, the Militia Clauses are -- as the constitutional text plainly indicates -- additional grants of power to Congress.

The first empowers Congress to call forth the militia "to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions." We may assume that Attorney General Wickersham was entirely correct in reasoning that, when a National Guard unit retains its status as a state militia, Congress could not "impress" the entire unit for any other purpose. Congress did, however, authorize the President to call forth the entire membership of the Guard into federal service during World War I, even though the soldiers who fought in France were not engaged in any of the three specified purposes. Membership in the Militia did not exempt

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them from a valid order to perform federal service, whether that service took the form of combat duty or training for such duty. [Footnote 20] The congressional power to call forth the militia may in appropriate cases supplement its broader power to raise armies and provide for the common defense and general welfare, but it does not limit those powers. [Footnote 21]

The second Militia Clause enhances federal power in three additional ways. First, it authorizes Congress to provide for "organizing, arming and disciplining the Militia." It is by congressional choice that the available pool of citizens has been formed into organized units. Over the years, Congress has exercised this power in various ways, but its current choice of a dual enlistment system is just as permissible as the 1792 choice to have the members of the militia arm themselves. Second, the Clause authorizes Congress to provide for governing such part of the militia as may be employed in the service of the United States. Surely this authority encompasses continued training while on active duty. Finally, although the appointment of officers "and the Authority of training the Militia" is reserved to the States respectively, that limitation is, in turn, limited by the words "according to the discipline prescribed by the Congress." If the discipline required for effective service in the Armed Forces of a global power requires training in distant lands or distant skies, Congress has the authority to provide it. The subordinate

496 U. S. 351

authority to perform the actual training prior to active duty in the federal service does not include the right to edit the discipline that Congress may prescribe for Guard members after they are ordered into federal service.

The Governor argues that this interpretation of the Militia Clause has the practical effect of nullifying an important State power that is expressly reserved in the Constitution. We disagree. It merely recognizes the supremacy of federal power in the area of military affairs. [Footnote 22] The Federal Government provides virtually all of the funding, the materiel, and the leadership for the state Guard units. The Minnesota unit, which includes about 13,000 members, is affected only slightly when a few dozen, or at most a few hundred, soldiers are ordered into active service for brief periods of time. [Footnote 23] Neither the State's basic training responsibility nor its ability to rely on its own Guard in state emergency situations is significantly affected. Indeed, if the federal training mission were to interfere with the State Guard's capacity to respond to local emergencies, the Montgomery Amendment would permit the Governor to veto the proposed mission. [Footnote 24]

Moreover,

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Congress has provided by statute that, in addition to its National Guard, a State may provide and maintain at its own expense a defense force that is exempt from being drafted into the Armed Forces of the United States. See 32 U.S.C. § 109(c). As long as that provision remains in effect, there is no basis for an argument that the federal statutory scheme deprives Minnesota of any constitutional entitlement to a separate militia of its own. [Footnote 25]

496 U. S. 353

In light of the Constitution's more general plan for providing for the common defense, the powers allowed to the States by existing statutes are significant. As has already been mentioned, several constitutional provisions commit matters of foreign policy and military affairs to the exclusive control of the National Government. [Footnote 26] This Court, in Tarble's Case, 13 Wall. 397 (1871), had occasion to observe that the constitutional allocation of powers in this realm gave rise to a presumption that federal control over the armed forces was exclusive. [Footnote 27] Were it not for the Militia Clauses, it might be

496 U. S. 354

possible to argue on like grounds that the constitutional allocation of powers precluded the formation of organized state militia. [Footnote 28] The Militia Clauses, however, subordinate any such structural inferences to an express permission, while also subjecting State militia to express federal limitations. [Footnote 29]

We thus conclude that the Montgomery Amendment is not inconsistent with the Militia Clauses. In so doing, we of course do not pass upon the relative virtues of the various political choices that have frequently altered the relationship between the Federal Government and the States in the field of military affairs. This case does not raise any question concerning the wisdom of the gubernatorial veto established

496 U. S. 355

in 1952, or of its partial repeal in 1986. We merely hold that, since the former was not constitutionally compelled, the Montgomery Amendment is constitutionally valid.

The judgment of the Court of Appeals is affirmed.

- - - - - - - - - -

[Footnote 1]

The Armed Forces Reserve Act of 1952, provided in part:

"Sec. 101. When used in this Act -- "

"* * * *"

"(c) 'Active duty for training' means full-time duty in the active military service of the United States for training purposes."

66 Stat. 481.

"[Section 233] (c) At any time, any unit and the members thereof, or any member not assigned to a unit organized for the purpose of serving as such, in an active status in any reserve component may, by competent authority, be ordered to and required to perform active duty or active duty for training, without his consent, for not to exceed fifteen days annually: Provided, That units and members of the National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States shall not be ordered to or required to serve on active duty in the service of the United States pursuant to this subsection without the consent of the Governor of the State or Territory concerned, or the Commanding General of the District of Columbia National Guard."

"(d) A member of a reserve component may, by competent authority, be ordered to active duty or active duty for training at any time with his consent: Provided, That no member of the National Guard of the United States or Air National Guard of the United States shall be so ordered without the consent of the Governor or other appropriate authority of the State Territory, or District of Columbia concerned."

Id. at 490.

These provisions, as amended, are now codified at 10 U.S.C. §§ 672(b) and 672(d).

[Footnote 2]

The Montgomery Amendment was enacted as § 522 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1987, Pub.L. 99-661, § 522, 100 Stat. 3871.

[Footnote 3]

Two clauses of Article I -- clauses 15 and 16 of § 8 -- are commonly described as "the Militia Clause" or "the Militia Clauses." They provide:

"The Congress shall have Power . . ."

"* * * *"

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions:"

"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress, . . ."

U.S. Const., Art. I, § 8, cl. 15, 16.

[Footnote 4]

In addition to the powers granted by the Militia Clauses, supra, n 3, Congress possesses the following powers conferred by Art. I, § 8:

"The Congress shall have Power . . . to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; . . ."

"* * * *"

"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"

"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;"

"To provide and maintain a Navy;"

"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; . . ."

"* * * *"

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Moreover, Art. IV, § 4, provides:

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

[Footnote 5]

At the Virginia ratification convention, Edmund Randolph stated that "there was not a member in the federal Convention, who did not feel indignation" at the idea of a standing Army. 3 J. Elliot, Debates on the Federal Constitution 401 (1863).

[Footnote 6]

As Alexander Hamilton argued in the Federalist Papers:

"Here I expect we shall be told that the militia of the country is its natural bulwark, and would be at all times equal to the national defence. This doctrine, in substance, had like to have lost us our independence. It cost millions to the United States that might have been saved. The facts which, from our own experience, forbid a reliance of this kind, are too recent to permit us to be the dupes of such a suggestion. The steady operations of war against a regular and disciplined army can only be successfully conducted by a force of the same kind. Considerations of economy, not less than of stability and vigor, confirm this position. The American militia, in the course of the late war, have, by their valor on numerous occasions, erected eternal monuments to their fame; but the bravest of them feel and know that the liberty of their country could not have been established by their efforts alone, however great and valuable they were. War, like most other things, is a science to be acquired and perfected by diligence, by perseverance, by time, and by practice."

The Federalist No. 25, pp. 156-157 (E. Earle ed. 1938).

[Footnote 7]

"That every citizen so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch with a box therein to contain not less than twenty-four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball: or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear, so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise, or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack."

1 Stat. 271.

[Footnote 8]

Weiner, The Militia Clause of the Constitution, 54 Harv.L.Rev. 181, 187-194 (1940).

[Footnote 9]

See 31 Stat. 748, 758.

[Footnote 10]

"Action should be taken in reference to the militia and to the raising of volunteer forces. Our militia law is obsolete and worthless. The organization and armament of the National Guard of the several States, which are treated as militia in the appropriations by the Congress, should be made identical with those provided for the regular forces. The obligations and duties of the Guard in time of war should be carefully defined, and a system established by law under which the method of procedure of raising volunteer forces should be prescribed in advance. It is utterly impossible in the excitement and haste of impending war to do this satisfactorily if the arrangements have not been made long beforehand. Provision should be made for utilizing in the first volunteer organizations called out the training of those citizens who have already had experience under arms, and especially for the selection in advance of the officers of any force which may be raised; for careful selection of the kind necessary is impossible after the outbreak of war."

First Annual Message to Congress, Dec. 3, 1901, 14 Messages and Papers of the Presidents 6672.

[Footnote 11]

The Act of January 21, 1903, 32 Stat. 775, provided in part:

"That the militia shall consist of every able-bodied male citizen of the respective States, Territories, and the District of Columbia, and every able-bodied male of foreign birth who has declared his intention to become a citizen, who is more than eighteen and less than forty-five years of age, and shall be divided into two classes -- the organized militia, to be known as the National Guard of the State, Territory, or District of Columbia, or by such other designations as may be given them by the laws of the respective States or Territories, and the remainder to be known as the Reserve Militia."

Section 3 provided, in part:

"That the regularly enlisted, organized, and uniformed active militia in the several States and Territories and the District of Columbia who have heretofore participated or shall hereafter participate in the apportionment of the annual appropriation provided by section sixteen hundred and sixty-one of the Revised Statutes of the United States, as amended, whether known and designated as National Guard, militia, or otherwise, shall constitute the organized militia."

Ibid.

Section 4 of the 1903 Act authorized the President to call forth the militia for a period of not exceeding nine months. Id. at 776.

[Footnote 12]

§ 4, 35 Stat. 400.

[Footnote 13]

"It is certain that it is only upon one or more of these three occasions -- when it is necessary to suppress insurrections, repeal invasions, or to execute the laws of the United States -- that even Congress can call this militia into the service of the United States, or authorize it to be done."

29 Op.Atty.Gen. 322, 323-324 (1912).

"The plain and certain meaning and effect of this constitutional provision is to confer upon Congress the power to call out the militia 'to execute the laws of the Union' within our own borders where, and where only, they exist, have any force, or can be executed by anyone. This confers no power to send the militia into a foreign country to execute our laws, which have no existence or force there and can not be there executed."

Id. at 327.

Under Attorney General Wickersham's analysis, it would apparently be unconstitutional to call forth the militia for training duty outside the United States, even with the consent of the appropriate Governor. Of course, his opinion assumed that the militia units so called forth would retain their separate status in the state militia during their period of federal service.

[Footnote 14]

See Weiner, 54 Harv.L.Rev. at 199-203.

[Footnote 15]

The National Defense Act of June 3, 1916, 39 Stat. 166, provided in part:

"That the Army of the United States shall consist of the Regular Army, the Volunteer Army, the Officers' Reserve Corps, the Enlisted Reserve Corps, the National Guard while in the service of the United States, and such other land forces as are now or may hereafter be authorized by law."

[Footnote 16]

"The possession of authority to enact the statute must be found in the clauses of the Constitution giving Congress power 'to declare war; . . . to raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; . . . to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.' Article I, § 8. And of course the powers conferred by these provisions, like all other powers given, carry with them as provided by the Constitution the authority 'to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers.' Article I, § 8."

245 U.S. at 245 U. S. 377.

[Footnote 17]

"This result is apparent since, on the face of the opinion delivered in those cases, the constitutional power of Congress to compel the military service which the assailed law commanded was based on the following propositions: (a) That the power of Congress to compel military service and the duty of the citizen to render it when called for were derived from the authority given to Congress by the Constitution to declare war and to raise armies. (b) That those powers were not qualified or restricted by the provisions of the militia clause, and hence the authority in the exercise of the war power to raise armies and use them when raised was not subject to limitations as to use of the militia, if any, deduced from the militia clause. And (c) that, from these principles, it also follows that the power to call for military duty under the authority to declare war and raise armies and the duty of the citizen to serve when called were coterminous with the constitutional grant from which the authority was derived, and knew no limit deduced from a separate, and for the purpose of the war power, wholly incidental, if not irrelevant and subordinate, provision concerning the militia, found in the Constitution. Our duty to affirm is therefore made clear."

247 U.S. at 247 U. S. 6.

[Footnote 18]

App. 12 (Testimony of James H. Webb, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs, before a subcommittee of the Senate Armed Services Committee on July 15, 1986).

[Footnote 19]

"The dual enlistment system requires state National Guard members to simultaneously enroll in the National Guard of the United States (NGUS), a reserve component of the national armed forces. 10 U.S.C. §§ 101(11) and (13) 591(a), 3261, 8261; 32 U.S.C. § 101(5) and (7). It is an essential aspect of traditional military policy of the United States. 32 U.S.C. § 102. The State of Minnesota fully supports dual enlistment, and has not challenged the concept in any respect."

Reply Brief for Petitioner 9 (footnote omitted).

[Footnote 20]

See Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. at 245 U. S. 382-389; Cox v. Wood, 247 U. S. 3, 247 U. S. 6 (1918).

[Footnote 21]

Congress has by distinct statutes provided for activating the National Guard of the United States and for calling forth the militia, including the National Guards of the various States. See 10 U.S.C. §§ 672-675 (authorizing executive officials to order reserve forces, including the National Guard of the United States and the Air National Guard of the United States, to active duty); 10 U.S.C. §§ 331-333 (authorizing executive officials to call forth the militia of the States); 10 U.S.C. §§ 35OO, 8500 (authorizing executive officials to call forth the National Guards of the various States). When the National Guard units of the States are called forth, the orders "shall be issued through the governors of the States." 10 U.S.C. § 3500.

[Footnote 22]

This supremacy is evidenced by several constitutional provisions, especially the prohibition in Art. I, § 10, of the Constitution, which states:

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

[Footnote 23]

According to the Governor, at most "only several hundred" of Minnesota's National Guard members "will be in federal training at any one time." Brief for Petitioner 41.

[Footnote 24]

The Montgomery Amendment deprives the Governors of the power to veto participation in a National Guard of the United States training mission on the basis of any objection to "the location, purpose, type, or schedule of such active duty." 10 U.S.C. § 672(f). Governors may withhold their consent on other grounds. The Governor and the United States agree that, if the federalization of the Guard would interfere with the State Guard s ability to address a local emergency, that circumstance would be a valid basis for a gubernatorial veto. Brief for Petitioner 41; Brief for Respondents 9.

The Governor contends that the residual veto power is of little use. He predicates this argument, however, on a claim that the federal training program has so minimal an impact upon the State Guard that the veto is never necessary:

"Minnesota has approximately 13,000 members of the National Guard. At most, only several hundred will be in federal training at any one time. To suggest that a governor will ever be able to withhold consent under the Montgomery Amendment assumes (1) local emergencies can be adequately predicted in advance, and (2) a governor can persuade federal authorities that National Guard members designated for training are needed for state purposes when the overwhelming majority of the National Guard remains at home."

Brief for Petitioner 41.

Under the interpretation of the Montgomery Amendment advanced by the United States, it seems that a governor might also properly withhold consent to an active duty order if the order were so intrusive that it deprived the State of the power to train its forces effectively for local service:

"Under the current statutory scheme, the States are assured of the use of their National Guard units for any legitimate state purpose. They are simply forbidden to use their control over the state National Guard to thwart federal use of the NGUS for national security and foreign policy objectives with which they disagree."

Brief for Respondents 13.

[Footnote 25]

The Governor contends that the state defense forces are irrelevant to this case because they are not subject to being called forth by the National Government, and therefore cannot be militia within the meaning of the Constitution. We are not, however, satisfied that this argument is persuasive. First, the immunity of those forces from impressment into the national service appears -- if indeed they have any such immunity -- to be the consequence of a purely statutory choice, and it is not obvious why that choice should alter the constitutional status of the forces allowed the States. Second, although we do not believe it necessary to resolve the issue, the Governor's construction of the relevant statute is subject to question. It is true that the state defense forces "may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces." 32 U.S.C. § 109(c). It is nonetheless possible that they are subject to call under 10 U.S.C. §§ 331-333, which distinguish the "militia" from the "armed forces," and which appear to subject all portions of the "militia" -- organized or not -- to call if needed for the purposes specified in the Militia Clauses. See n. 21 supra.

[Footnote 26]

See, e.g., Art. I, § 8, cl. 11 (Congress's power to declare war); Art. I, § 10, cl. 1 (States forbidden to enter into treaties); Art. I, § 10, cl. 3 (States forbidden to keep troops in time of peace, enter into agreements with foreign powers, or engage in War absent imminent invasion); Art. II, § 3 (President shall receive ambassadors).

[Footnote 27]

In the course of holding that a Wisconsin court had no jurisdiction to issue a writ of habeas corpus to inquire into the validity of a soldier's enlistment in the United States Army, we observed:

"Now, among the powers assigned to the National government, is the power 'to raise and support armies,' and the power 'to provide for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.' The execution of these powers falls within the line of its duties, and its control over the subject is plenary and exclusive. It can determine, without question from any State authority, how the armies shall be raised, whether by voluntary enlistment or forced draft, the age at which the soldier shall be received, and the period for which he shall be taken, the compensation he shall be allowed, and the service to which he shall be assigned. And it can provide the rules for the government and regulation of the forces after they are raised, define what shall constitute military offences, and prescribe their punishment. No interference with the execution of this power of the National government in the formation, organization, and government of its armies by any State officials could be permitted without greatly impairing the efficiency, if it did not utterly destroy, this branch of the public service."

13 Wall. at 408.

[Footnote 28]

See United States v. Curtiss-Wright Export Corp., 299 U. S. 304, 299 U. S. 318 (1936) ("The powers to declare and wage war, to conclude peace, to make treaties, to maintain diplomatic relations with other sovereignties, if they had never been mentioned in the Constitution, would have vested in the federal government as necessary concomitants of nationality"); The Federalist No. 23, p. 143 (E. Earle ed. 1938) ("[I]t must be admitted . . . that there can be no limitation of that authority which is to provide for the defense and protection of the community, in any matter essential to its efficacy -- that is, in any matter essential to the formation, direction, or support of the NATIONAL FORCES"); L. Henkin, Foreign Affairs and the Constitution 234-244 (1972) (discussing implied constitutional restrictions upon State policies related to foreign affairs); Comment, The Legality of Nuclear Free Zones, 55 U.Chi.L. Rev. 965, 991-997 (1988) (discussing implied constitutional restrictions upon State policies related to foreign affairs or the military).

[Footnote 29]

The powers allowed by statute to the States make it unnecessary for us to examine that portion of the Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U. S. 366 (1918), in which we stated:

"[The Constitution left] under the sway of the States undelegated the control of the militia to the extent that such control was not taken away by the exercise by Congress of its power to raise armies. This did not diminish the military power or curb the full potentiality of the right to exert it, but left an area of authority requiring to be provided for (the military area) unless and until, by the exertion of the military power of Congress, that area had been circumscribed or totally disappeared."

Id. at 245 U. S. 383.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-06-16 15:20:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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