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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: Here’s How The Supreme Court Already Repealed The Second Amendment
Source: The Federalist
URL Source: http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/09 ... ady-repealed-second-amendment/
Published: May 9, 2018
Author: Mark Overstreet
Post Date: 2018-05-09 11:31:39 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 55774
Comments: 421

The Supreme Court effectively repealed the Second Amendment in District of Columbia v. Heller by restricting the amendment to common arms.

In March, retired Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens called for repealing the Second Amendment, implicitly admitting that it does what, in his dissent in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), he pretended it does not: prohibit laws infringing the right to keep and bear arms.

Why Stevens called for repeal and dissented in Heller is a mystery, however. The Second Amendment was repealed, in effect, by Heller’s majority opinion. The opinion went beyond questions raised in the case and laid out a rationale by which Congress, states, and courts could ban the private possession of many offensive and defensive arms today and all such arms of the future.

Heller asked the court to decide whether Washington DC’s bans on handguns, having a loaded firearm at home, and carrying a firearm at home without a permit violated the Second Amendment. Although on imperfect grounds, the court correctly ruled that the first two bans were unconstitutional. It also said if DC required a permit to carry a gun at home, it had to issue permits to qualified applicants. But, the court added, “[w]e may as well consider at this point . . . what types of weapons [the Court’s decision in U.S. v. Miller (1939)] permits.”

The Court Turned Stare Decisis On Its Head

Miller asked whether the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment by requiring that a short-barreled shotgun be registered with the federal government. Oddly, before the court heard the case, one defendant died and the other disappeared, so their lawyer didn’t go to Washington to present evidence on their behalf.

The court thus concluded, “[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession and use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense” (emphasis added).

For the right to “ordinary military equipment” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense,” the court cited the decision of the Tennessee Supreme Court in Aymette v. State (1840), that “the arms, the right to keep which is secured [by Tennessee’s constitution] are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”

Heller said, “We think that Miller’s ‘ordinary military equipment’ language must be read in tandem with what comes after: ‘[O]rdinarily when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.’”

However, that mischaracterizes Miller. The arms to which Miller said people have the right are those that have a “relationship to a well regulated militia.” “Ordinary military equipment” is the first example of arms the court said have that relationship, and “what comes after” is a second example: other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.” It was three paragraphs later that the court stated the obvious: people commonly possessed “common” arms.

Moreover, Heller didn’t read Miller “in tandem.” It gave weight only to Miller’s comment about “common” arms, while rejecting Miller’s and Aymette’s endorsement of the right to arms relating to militia purposes, “ordinary military equipment,” and other arms that “could contribute to the common defense.”

Why ‘Common’ Can’t Be the Standard for Owning Arms

Heller’s mischaracterization of Miller is the first reason why “common” cannot be the standard for arms to which people have the right. “Common” is also vulnerable to deliberate misinterpretation. For example, while the percentage of gun owners who own an AR-15 is about the same as the percentage of drivers who own a Mercedes, judges who oppose the right to arms would likely rule that only Mercedeses are “common.”

A second reason “common” cannot be the standard was noted by Justice Stephen Breyer in his dissent in Heller. He explained, “[T]he majority determines what regulations are permissible by looking to see what existing regulations permit. There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning.”

Breyer had in mind the majority’s argument that fully automatic rifles, common in the military, could be banned because they aren’t common among private individuals. The circularity is that they aren’t common among private individuals because they have been prohibitively taxed since 1934, banned in about half the states for almost as long, prohibited from importation since 1968, and banned from domestic manufacture since 1986.

A third reason is that the U.S. Framers didn’t limit the right to “common” arms. For example, cannons, though not as common as handheld arms, weren’t excluded from the Second Amendment. In protecting the right to arms for defense against tyranny, the Framers intended for the people to win. Several quotations from them illustrate the point.

James Madison: “Let a regular army . . . be at the devotion of the federal government. . . . [T]he State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.”

Alexander Hamilton: “[The] army cannot be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.”

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms.”

Tench Coxe: “As the military . . . might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the [Second Amendment] in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

Noah Webster: “[T]he whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”

You Can’t Protect Freedom With a Slingshot

A fourth, and the most important, reason was pointed out, but rejected by Heller’s majority opinion, written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia, an originalist from whom we might have expected faithfulness to the Framers’ intent. Referring to fully-automatic rifles, Scalia wrote:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service . . . may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the [amendment’s] prefatory clause. . . . But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Although some laud Heller for recognizing an individual right to some arms, its false standard allows Congress and the states to ban arms they and the courts claim are not “common” or that are useful “in military service.” As Breyer put it, “On the majority’s reasoning, if tomorrow someone invents a particularly useful, highly dangerous self-defense weapon, Congress and the States had better ban it immediately, for once it becomes popular Congress will no longer possess the authority to do so.”

Breyer was mocking his colleagues, but “tomorrow” is important because firearms are near the end of their 500-year era of usefulness for the military purpose the Framers intended. Notwithstanding gun-control supporters’ complaints about the supposed new-fangledness of this or that firearm or firearm accessory, firearms are glorified slingshots.

Three thousand years ago, David slew Goliath with a rock ballistically comparable to a .45 caliber pistol bullet. Gunpowder propels a bullet more predictably than a whirling leather thong, but bullets, like rocks, are inert projectiles.

Sometime this century, the government will be equipped with offensive and defensive handheld arms and even more futuristic arms that will render firearms as obsolete for defense against tyranny as bows and arrows are today. While our troops should be equipped with the best equipment possible when fighting America’s enemies, it requires little imagination to envision how extraordinary technologies, such as those developed by the Pentagon’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, could be misused against the American people.

Of course, regardless of Heller and whether the Second Amendment is repealed, Americans have the right to keep and bear arms, including for defense against tyranny. As a wiser Supreme Court recognized in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), the right, which existed before the Constitution, is “not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.”

But rights are a concept. Laws that are enforced have tangible effect. In early April, U.S. District Court judge William Young ruled that Heller’s endorsement of restrictions on fully automatic firearms permits Massachusetts to ban semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines that many firearms use. Other courts have upheld similar bans.

If Americans allow their rights to be choked in this manner, they could find themselves no longer in control of government, but rather at its mercy.

Mark Overstreet is a firearm instructor and author in central Texas. He retired in 2016 as the senior research coordinator of the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, after 25 years with the organization. His views do not necessarily reflect those of the NRA.

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#1. To: Deckard (#0)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/opinion.html

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/boundvolumes/554bv.pdf

District of Columbia v Heller, 554 US 570 (2008)

From Heller at 581:

Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret their object: “Arms.” The 18th-century meaning is no different from the meaning today. The 1773 edition of Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.” 1 Dictionary of the English Language 107 (4th ed.) (hereinafter Johnson). Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary defined “arms” as “any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.” 1 A New and Complete Law Dictionary (1771); see also N. Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language (1828) (reprinted 1989) (hereinafter Webster) (similar).

Heller at 582:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

Heller at 584:

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford). When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, Justice Ginsburg wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment … indicate[s]: ‘wear, bear, or carry … upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose … of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion) (quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We think that Justice Ginsburg accurately captured the natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes participation in a structured military organization.

Heller at 620:

We described the right protected by the Second Amendment as “ ‘bearing arms for a lawful purpose’ ”

Heller at 624-25:

“In the colonial and revolutionary war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen and weapons used in defense of person and home were one and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614 P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)). Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns. That accords with the historical understanding of the scope of the right, see Part III, infra.

We conclude that nothing in our precedents forecloses our adoption of the original understanding of the Second Amendment.

Heller at 626:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).

Heller at 627-28:

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6 Ed.

Arms. Anything that a man wears for his defense, or takes in his hands as a weapon.

The "right to keep and bear arms" existed in the colonies, was brought forth into the states before the union, and was protected by the 2nd Amendment. The right which existed in the colonies came from the English common law. The Framers saw no need to explain to themselves what that right to keep and bear arms was.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

Heller at 593-95:

By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone 136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140; see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities concurred. See G. Sharp, Tracts, Concerning the Ancient and Only True Legal Means of National Defence, by a Free Militia 17–18, 27 (3d ed. 1782); 2 J. de Lolme, The Rise and Progress of the English Constitution 886–887 (1784) (A. Stephens ed. 1838); W. Blizard, Desultory Reflections on Police 59–60 (1785). Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.

And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists. In the tumultuous decades of the 1760’s and 1770’s, the Crown began to disarm the inhabitants of the most rebellious areas. That provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms. A New York article of April 1769 said that “[i]t is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 79 (O. Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g., Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769, in 1 The Writings of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They understood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.” 1 Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) (hereinafter Tucker’s Blackstone). See also W. Duer, Outlines of the Constitutional Jurisprudence of the United States 31–32 (1833).

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations upon the individual right, however, we must determine whether the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports with our interpretation of the operative clause.

Heller at 626-28:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e. g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e. g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16 Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M–16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-09   13:00:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: nolu chan (#1) (Edited)

"... by restricting the amendment to common arms."

They had to ... if they were going to rule that the second amendment protected an individual right. You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

As I said at the time, this is what happens when trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You destroy the square peg.

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens. It protects state militias and the arms of state militia members from federal infringement. What are those arms? They are the arms selected by the state militia as necessary for the protection of the state. Round peg. Round hole.

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-09   14:45:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Y'ALL (#2)

if they were going to rule that the second amendment protected an individual right. You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

The second amendment doesn't protect arms for ordinary citizens.

The second amendment protects arms for ordinary citizens.

Ordinary arms are the means used by citizens to obtain tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns etc, --- from their enemies...

tpaine  posted on  2018-05-09   15:23:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: misterwhite, nolu chan (#2)

You can't have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

As I said at the time, this is what happens when trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You destroy the square peg.

Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xht...ort&fq=true&num=5&hl=true

People out there have this strong hatred for the Second Amendment, and to deliberately dismantle the meaning of "militia" and who they are comprised of, for the sole purpose of depriving the ordinary citizen that lawful Right which has long been recognized in our law books as a personal right. The statute I pointed out is recognized as part of the positive law already in our United States Codes in the Table of Contents as the original positive law. State Constitutions must be concomitant with the original federal constitution, chiefly the Bill of Rights. The purpose of invoking boiler plate case law in this matter is to confuse the issue thus clouding what the reasonable intent of the Second Amendment was intended to be for. The statute I referenced (Title 10 USC. Sec 311 (b) (2) makes it quite clear who the militia are. Unlike the professional standing army, the Class (b) (2) militia is comprised of those like you and me. The professional standing army is controlled by the federal government which includes your State Governors who use their own armies to be deployed when necessary to establish the peace. Contrary to this, We as the general member of the public, represent that second class of being the unprofessional army in that the purpose of having those cannons, tanks, SAMs, and flamethrowers, is to maintain these tools in a safe manner and teach our children about them. Our militia serves for the purpose of protecting not our homeland and overseas but to protect our home and personal property from professional standing armies being used by rogue governments who desire to override our rights as a free people.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-09   16:39:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: goldilucky (#4)

Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns.

If those ordinary citizens are part of a state militia, then those weapons are protected by the second amendment. Each state, however, decides how and where those weapons will be kept.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-09   17:50:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: misterwhite (#2)

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.

The Federal Constitution.

The 2nd Amendment created no right. It protected a right already existing in the people who chose to become part of the constitutional union. That right to keep and bear arms belonged to the colonists as English citizens under English common law.

The Bill of Rights had no application but to the Federal government when written. The BOR was applied to the states by the 14th Amendment.

Some original states did not adopt the common law in their constitution, but all either did in their constitution or by statute.

The 2nd Amendment prohibits the Federal government from infringing upon the right. It explicitly identifies a power that has not been delegated. The right was defined in English common law and carried forward into the American union.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch1.asp

Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Book the First - Chapter the First: Of the Absolute Rights of Individuals

5. THE fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W. & M. ft. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-09   19:42:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: misterwhite (#5)

Each state, however, decides how and where those weapons will be kept.

No, the statute clearly states those classifications of the militia. This is where the deceit in the law has been pushed by the anti-gun lobbyists. They know exactly what they are doing because it is they who are aiding and abetting terrorists by pushing for open borders and allowing all these third world people; many of which are terrorists, into this country. They are the ones bringing in the chaos to disrupt and overthrow this government. Furthermore, it is not our government that is protecting the John Q. Public but rather the John Q. Public comprised of those able-bodied citizens who are being demonized for trying to protect their property and family from a rogue government that does not give a damn about them let alone safety for the American people.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-09   19:42:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: goldilucky (#4)

Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly

No, it does not. It says nothing about ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers, or machine guns.

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-10/subtitle-a/part-i/chapter-13/section-311/

THE MILITIA - 10 U.S.C. § 311 (2012)

§311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85–861, §1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

The RKBA, as defined in English common law, and brought forth into the American union, never applied to weapons other than those which were lawful to possess. What is lawful to possess is determined by law.

The statute I referenced (Title 10 USC. Sec 311 (b) (2) makes it quite clear who the militia are.

The part of a statute you reference [10 USC § 311(b)(2)] does nothing more than define one class of the militia designated as the "unorganized militia."

It does not state that this class may possess weapons or arms that the law has determined are unlawful to possess, or which require a license to possess.

Citizens may possess tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns if they have a proper license to possess them.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-09   19:56:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: nolu chan (#8)

The part of a statute you reference [10 USC § 311(b)(2)] does nothing more than define one class of the militia designated as the "unorganized militia."

It does not state that this class may possess weapons or arms that the law has determined are unlawful to possess, or which require a license to possess.

Citizens may possess tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns if they have a proper license to possess them.

And that class of the unorganized militia is what our founding fathers stood for. They did not believe in a federal militia which is why that Class (b)(2) applies. The Other classifications of the militia apply to the federal militias and those organized and deployed by the Governors of each State of the union. Those are the ones you invoke are the "lawful" militia in accordance with your case law. But the statute I just posted clearly addresses who those unprofessional class of militias are. They are, indeed, a member of our militias who have the right to own cannnons, flamethrowers, and etc. And this is what all the big fuss is about when there really is no need for any at all. When you cannot trust your own government to protect you, it becomes the dire duty of those very citizens to buckle down and take back their government even if by means of arms. We see this happen in Russia where the citizens are protesting against their government. And boy do they. We see this happen in Egypt where the people of Cairo protest against unruly leaders unfit to lead.

But in this great country of America, we have those who tells us the law does not imply the right for citizens to bear arms. This is not only false in its entirety, but unAmerican and falls under seditious speech doctrine! You people want your war... well then bring it on.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-09   21:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: goldilucky (#9)

[goldilucky #7] Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly

- - - - - - - - - -

[goldilucky #] But the statute I just posted clearly addresses who those unprofessional class of militias are. They are, indeed, a member of our militias who have the right to own cannnons, flamethrowers, and etc.

That is your misguided interpretation of a constitutional provision which has no such content.

No only does the cited provision not say it clearly, it does not say it at all.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-09   23:15:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: nolu chan (#6)

So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions.
The Federal Constitution.

So you're sayng the Founders trusted the newly-formed Federal government so much that they were willing to rely on them to protect the right of ordinary citizens to keep and bear arms? Hah!

As you said, the Federal government was not given the power to interfere with State militias or the arms of their members -- yet the Founders wrote the second amendment anyways. Because they didn't trust the newly-formed Federal government, and the states refused to support the U.S. Constitution unless it contained a Bill of Rights.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-10   9:23:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: nolu chan (#10) (Edited)

No, it is your case law you posted that completely misinterprets who the lawful members of the militia are. Your case law never details those two classifications of the militia. Not once did you even make reference to Title 10 of the armed forces and the militia. What you referenced is some case law designed to override and diminish the importance of the classifications of the militia. The two classifications serve as an important reminder of what this country was founded under. Your case law generalized and misguided the reader which is actually very deceitful. And in law, I'm sure you were taught that deceit is legal but not lawful.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-10   11:01:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: goldilucky (#4)

No, it is your case law you posted that completely misinterprets who the lawful members of the militia are. Your case law never details those two classifications of the militia. Not once did you even make reference to Title 10 of the armed forces and the militia.

What the heck do think I quoted at #8 ???

I did not quote case law, I quoted the Federal statute, Title 10 United States Code Section 311.

You had stated at #4 that, "Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly...."

You quoted nothing.

I quoted the section of law [10 USC § 311] which you claimed says quite clearly that you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. In fully quoting your claimed source, I readily demonstrated that it does not say a mumbling word about tanks, SAMs, flame throwers or machine guns, neither quite clearly, nor even opaquely.

Now that I have told you what it is, perhaps you will recognize it is what you cited but failed to quote.

http://law.justia.com/codes/us/2012/title-10/subtitle-a/part-i/chapter-13/section-311/

THE MILITIA - 10 U.S.C. § 311 (2012)

§311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85–861, §1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-10   18:52:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: misterwhite (#11)

So you're sayng the Founders trusted the newly-formed Federal government so much that they were willing to rely on them to protect the right of ordinary citizens to keep and bear arms? Hah!

No, those are your words. I did not say that.

As you said, the Federal government was not given the power to interfere with State militias or the arms of their members -- yet the Founders wrote the second amendment anyways.

I definitely did not say that either. The Founders were the guys around at the revolution and the founding.

The Framers were those who crafted the original Constitution at a constitutional convention.

The Bill of Rights was introduced in the first Congress of the United States. Representative James Madison first introduced amendments on June 8, 1789, as recorded in:

The Congressional Register; or History of the Proceedings and Debates of the First House of Representatives of the United States of America, Namely,

New-Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, South-Carolina and Georgia

Being the ELEVEN STATES that have Ratified the Constitution of the Government of the United States.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/271187763/Congressional-Register-Volume-1-aka-Lloyd-s-Debates-1789

See Madison, on June 8, 1789, at page 414.

At the time that the matter of the amendments to the Constitution were taken up in the Congress, there were ELEVEN states in the union, Rhode Island and North Carolina having not ratified the Constitution.

The amendments, later called the Bill of Rights, were not introduced at a Constitutional Convention of Framers, but at a congressional committee of the then eleven states of the union.

Because they didn't trust the newly-formed Federal government, and the states refused to support the U.S. Constitution unless it contained a Bill of Rights.

The Constitution had been ratified and the new government had been formed before the amendments to become the Bill of Rights were introduced in the first House of Representatives by Representative Madison on June 8, 1789.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-10   19:35:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: nolu chan (#8)

Citizens may possess tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns if they have a proper license to possess them.

When citizens have to get permission from their governments to possess tanks, SAMs, flamethrowers and machine guns, they do not have rights but instead as you are plainly stating it, they have privileges...not rights. And this is also wrong. In a society where only a privileged few can possess such artillery and machine guns, the rest of those citizens are not free.

You don't get the government to grant you a privilege for something you already have ...and that is a personal Right. You do not license rights....only privileges. Either that Right exist or it doesn't.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-10   23:20:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: misterwhite (#2)

If I was your neighbor. You can bet your ass I'd have a cannon pointed at your house 247!

A K A Stone  posted on  2018-05-10   23:42:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: A K A Stone (#16)

If I was your neighbor. You can bet your ass I'd have a cannon pointed at your house 247!

Assuming all your "imagination" came to fruition, I think you would load the cannon with another Pant load; worthless bullshit in other words.

buckeroo  posted on  2018-05-10   23:54:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: A K A Stone (#16)

If I was your neighbor. You can bet your ass I'd have a cannon pointed at your house 247!

That's why you can't have one. When they do a background check on you it states, "No cannon for you!"

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:08:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: goldilucky (#15)

In a society where only a privileged few can possess such artillery and machine guns, the rest of those citizens are not free.

The federal government cannot prevent states from possessing such armament. You're free if you trust your state. The Founders did.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:11:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: nolu chan (#14)

So you're sayng the Founders trusted the newly-formed Federal government so much that they were willing to rely on them to protect the right of ordinary citizens to keep and bear arms? Hah!

No, those are your words. I did not say that.

Yeah, you did.

When I asked and answered my question, "So what protects the individual right to keep and bear arms? State constitutions", you replied, "The Federal Constitution."

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:17:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: nolu chan (#14)

The Constitution had been ratified and the new government had been formed before the amendments to become the Bill of Rights were introduced in the first House of Representatives by Representative Madison on June 8, 1789.

More correctly, "The Constitution had been ratified and the new government had been formed because the amendments to become the Bill of Rights were promised by Representative Madison".

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:21:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: nolu chan (#14) (Edited)

As you said, the Federal government was not given the power to in interfere with State militias or the arms of their members -- yet the Founders wrote the second amendment anyways.

I definitely did not say that either. The Founders were the guys around at the revolution and the founding.

Oh, please. It that your argument? Nitpicking wordplay?

You acknowledged that the second amendment "identifies a power that has not been delegated". Meaning, the U.S. Constitution did not give the Federal government the power to disband the State militias and confiscate their arms. Yet James Madison wrote the second amendment anyways and the Founders/Framers signed it.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:29:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: goldilucky (#4)

Yes, you can have ordinary citizens with tanks, SAMs, flame throwers and machine guns. Title 10 Section 311 Part (b) 2 says this quite clearly

Title 10 Section 311 Part(b)2 refers to the "unorganized militia" of a state. Currently, 21 States have State Defense Forces (also called State Military, State Guards, or State Military Reserves), authorized by state and federal law and under the command of the governor of each state.

State Defense Forces are distinct from their state's National Guard in that they cannot become federal entities.

I am not aware that any State Defense Force allows their personnel to own SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   9:43:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: misterwhite (#19)

The federal government cannot prevent states from possessing such armament. You're free if you trust your state. The Founders did.

You are not free if you trust your state. The founders did not create states for people to depend on If this were the case, we'd be living under Communism.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-11   10:50:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: misterwhite (#23)

I am not aware that any State Defense Force allows their personnel to own SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

That's because you are not aware that Title 10 Section 311 (b) (2) applies to the John Q. Public in general. And you should be aware of its existence because it has been in the books for a long time.

You state the following:

Title 10 Section 311 Part(b)2 refers to the "unorganized militia" of a state. Currently, 21 States have State Defense Forces (also called State Military, State Guards, or State Military Reserves), authorized by state and federal law and under the command of the governor of each state.

What you are referring to is Title 10 Section 311 (a) in reference to the professional standing army. This section is reserved for the professional standing army only.

In our Bill of Rights, the purpose of referring to Title 10 Section 311 (b)(2) is to prevent violations of the Third Amendment from happening on private property. We see this happening a lot but the US Supreme Court does not discuss the importance of the Third Amendment regarding quartering of US troops and professional standing armies on private property. No, the founding fathers did not want for professional standing armies to be used on private property. An example of this was the 1992 Ruby Ridge case.

goldilucky  posted on  2018-05-11   11:02:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: misterwhite (#22)

Because they didn't trust the newly-formed Federal government, and the states refused to support the U.S. Constitution unless it contained a Bill of Rights.

The Constitution, as ratified, flatly did not contain a Bill of Rights.

As you said, the Federal government was not given the power to interfere with State militias or the arms of their members -- yet the Founders wrote the second amendment anyways.

Neither the Founders nor Framers wrote the Second Amendment. It was a product of the first U.S. Congress. It was not an initiative of the people, as was the Constitution written at a convention, it was an initiative of the Federal legislature.

The Second Amendment to the Federal Constitution protects the individual right to keeep and bear arms.

So you're sayng the Founders trusted the newly-formed Federal government so much that they were willing to rely on them to protect the right of ordinary citizens to keep and bear arms? Hah!

I documented that they relied on the United States legislature to draft the Bill of Rights and offer it to the States for ratification.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   14:03:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: goldilucky (#25)

What you are referring to is Title 10 Section 311 (a) in reference to the professional standing army.

No. Title 10 Section 311 (a) refers to the members of the militia.

Title 10 Section 311(b)(1) refers to the National Guard.

Title 10 Section 311(b)(2) refers to the unorganized militia (e.g., State Defense Forces).

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   14:28:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: nolu chan (#26)

Neither the Founders nor Framers wrote the Second Amendment.

Did I say they did? I think we all know James Madison (a Founding Father) wrote the second amendment and introduced it to Congress. Because the Federal government wasn't to be trusted. Which was my point.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   14:43:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: goldilucky, misterwhite (#25)

That's because you are not aware that Title 10 Section 311 (b) (2) applies to the John Q. Public in general. And you should be aware of its existence because it has been in the books for a long time.

You state the following:

Title 10 Section 311 Part(b)2 refers to the "unorganized militia" of a state. Currently, 21 States have State Defense Forces (also called State Military, State Guards, or State Military Reserves), authorized by state and federal law and under the command of the governor of each state.

What you are referring to is Title 10 Section 311 (a) in reference to the professional standing army. This section is reserved for the professional standing army only.

You do not know what you are talking about.

10 U.S.C. § 311 pertains to the militia. And no, the militia is not the regular troops or standing army. No part of 10 U.S.C. § 311 pertains to the regular troops or standing army.

Militia. The body of citizens in a state, enrolled for discipline as a military force, but not engaged in actual service except in emergencies, as distinguished from regular troops or a standing army.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

To become a member of the active duty U.S. Armed Forces, one must sign up to join. To become a member of the militia, one must be the requisite age.

Army. Armed forces of a nation intended for military service on land.

Regular army. The permanent military establishment, which is maintained both in peace and war according to law. Compare Militia.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed.

Navy. A fleet of ships; the aggregate of vessels of war belonging to a nation. In a broader sense, and as the equivalent to "naval forces," the entire corps of officers and men enlisted in the naval service and who man the public ships of war, including in this sense, the officers and men of the Marine Corps.

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed

The regular armed forces consists of persons who have been commissioned (officers) or who have enlisted (members).

To become part of the regular armed forces, you obtain a commission or enlist. To become part of the militia, or to cease being part of the militia, you have a birthday.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   14:58:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: misterwhite, goldilucky (#23)

I am not aware that any State Defense Force allows their personnel to own SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

I am unaware of any military base that allows active duty military living on base to have their own private SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers.

Except for authorized persons with authorized weapons, on base personnel are not authorized to be armed, concealed carry or otherwise. One cannot transport their private gun onto a base in their vehicle either.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   15:04:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: misterwhite (#28) (Edited)

Neither the Founders nor Framers wrote the Second Amendment.

Did I say they did?

Yeah, you did, and I quoted you saying it. I'll quote you again and bold face it so you can see it.

[misterwhite #11] As you said, the Federal government was not given the power to interfere with State militias or the arms of their members -- yet the Founders wrote the second amendment anyways. Because they didn't trust the newly-formed Federal government, and the states refused to support the U.S. Constitution unless it contained a Bill of Rights.

Neither the Founders, nor the Framers, wrote the Bill of Rights. It was written in the U.S. Congress.

The states ratified the Constitution and Washington was inaugurated, and the new government was formed without a Bill of Rights in existence.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   15:13:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: nolu chan (#30)

I believe he's thinking private paramilitary groups like the Michigan Militia (Wolverines) qualify as the "unorganized militia" and are protected by the second amendment.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   15:19:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: nolu chan (#31)

yet the Founders wrote the second amendment anyways.

Fine. Yet the Founders wrote included the second amendment anyways.

And it wasn't written in the U.S. Congress. It was written by Founding Father James Madison, modified, and passed by the U.S. Congress.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   15:26:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: nolu chan (#31)

and the new government was formed without a Bill of Rights in existence.

So? Madison promised that one would follow. They believed him and he delivered.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   15:28:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: misterwhite (#33)

Yet the Founders wrote included the second amendment anyways.

And it wasn't written in the U.S. Congress. It was written by Founding Father James Madison, modified, and passed by the U.S. Congress.

The Founders held a revolution. They did not include the second amendment in the Declaration of Independence or Articles of Confederation.

The Framers attended a Constitutional Convention and crafted the text of the original Constitution, as ratified, with NO amendments.

Representative Madison, as a member of Congress, initiated the process of calling for drafting of amendments by the Congress.

Madison's congressional campaign pledge to introduce amendments to the Constitution came after ratification. He was not running for Congress before there was a Constitution.

Madison was the primary author of most of the amendments that were adopted as the Bill of Rights, but what Madison proposed is not what came out of the congressional sausage machine. His draft was amended in the House, further amended in the Senate, further amended by the House-Senate Conference Committee, and the Committee issued a report with their final draft.

It was written in the Congress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Proposal and ratification

Anticipating amendments

James Madison, primary author and chief advocate for the Bill of Rights in the First Congress

The 1st United States Congress, which met in New York City's Federal Hall, was a triumph for the Federalists. The Senate of eleven states contained 20 Federalists with only two Anti-Federalists, both from Virginia. The House included 48 Federalists to 11 Anti-Federalists, the latter of whom were from only four states: Massachusetts, New York, Virginia and South Carolina.[34] Among the Virginia delegation to the House was James Madison, Patrick Henry's chief opponent in the Virginia ratification battle. In retaliation for Madison's victory in that battle at Virginia's ratification convention, Henry and other Anti-Federalists, who controlled the Virginia House of Delegates, had gerrymandered a hostile district for Madison's planned congressional run and recruited Madison's future presidential successor, James Monroe, to oppose him.[35] Madison defeated Monroe after offering a campaign pledge that he would introduce constitutional amendments forming a bill of rights at the First Congress.[36]

Originally opposed to the inclusion of a bill of rights in the Constitution, Madison had gradually come to understand the importance of doing so during the often contentious ratification debates. By taking the initiative to propose amendments himself through the Congress, he hoped to preempt a second constitutional convention that might, it was feared, undo the difficult compromises of 1787, and open the entire Constitution to reconsideration, thus risking the dissolution of the new federal government. Writing to Jefferson, he stated, "The friends of the Constitution, some from an approbation of particular amendments, others from a spirit of conciliation, are generally agreed that the System should be revised. But they wish the revisal to be carried no farther than to supply additional guards for liberty."[37] He also felt that amendments guaranteeing personal liberties would "give to the Government its due popularity and stability".[38] Finally, he hoped that the amendments "would acquire by degrees the character of fundamental maxims of free government, and as they become incorporated with the national sentiment, counteract the impulses of interest and passion".[39] Historians continue to debate the degree to which Madison considered the amendments of the Bill of Rights necessary, and to what degree he considered them politically expedient; in the outline of his address, he wrote, "Bill of Rights—useful—not essential—".[40]

On the occasion of his April 30, 1789 inauguration as the nation's first president, George Washington addressed the subject of amending the Constitution. He urged the legislators,

whilst you carefully avoid every alteration which might endanger the benefits of an united and effective government, or which ought to await the future lessons of experience; a reverence for the characteristic rights of freemen, and a regard for public harmony, will sufficiently influence your deliberations on the question, how far the former can be impregnably fortified or the latter be safely and advantageously promoted.[41][42]

- - - - - - - - - -

James Madison's proposed amendments to the Constitution:[49]

First. That there be prefixed to the constitution a declaration that all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from the people.

That government is instituted, and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right of acquiring and using property, and generally of pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government, whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purposes of its institution.

Secondly. That in article 1st, section 2, clause 3, these words be struck out, to wit: "The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each State shall have at least one Representative, and until such enumeration shall be made;" and in place thereof be inserted these words, to wit: "After the first actual enumeration, there shall be one Representative for every thirty thousand, until the number amounts to—, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that the number shall never be less than—, nor more than—, but each State shall, after the first enumeration, have at least two Representatives; and prior thereto."

Thirdly. That in article 2nd, section 6, clause 1, there be added to the end of the first sentence, these words, to wit, "But no law varying the compensation last ascertained shall operate before the next ensuing election of representatives."

Fourthly. That in article 2nd, section 9, between clauses 3 and 4, be inserted these clauses, to wit, The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience by in any manner, or on any pretext infringed.

The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable.

The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good, nor from applying to the legislature by petitions, or remonstrances for redress of their grievances.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

No soldier shall in time of peace be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner; nor at any time, but in a manner warranted by law.

No person shall be subject, except in cases of impeachment, to more than one punishment, or one trial for the same office; nor shall be compelled to be a witness against himself; nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor be obliged to relinquish his property, where it may be necessary for public use, without a just compensation.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

The rights of the people to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, to be informed of the cause and nature of the accusation, to be confronted with his accusers, and the witnesses against him; to have a compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

The exceptions here or elsewhere in the constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people; or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.

Fifthly. That in article 2nd, section 10, between clauses 1 and 2, be inserted this clause, to wit: No state shall violate the equal rights of conscience, or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases

Sixthly. That article 3rd, section 2, be annexed to the end of clause 2nd, these words to wit: but no appeal to such court shall be allowed where the value in controversy shall not amount to — dollars: nor shall any fact triable by jury, according to the course of common law, be otherwise re-examinable than may consist with the principles of common law.

Seventhly. That in article 3rd, section 2, the third clause be struck out, and in its place be inserted the classes following, to wit:

The trial of all crimes (except in cases of impeachments, and cases arising in the land or naval forces, or the militia when on actual service in time of war or public danger) shall be by an impartial jury of freeholders of the vicinage, with the requisite of unanimity for conviction, of the right of challenge, and other accustomed requisites; and in all crimes punishable with loss of life or member, presentment or indictment by a grand jury shall be an essential preliminary, provided that in cases of crimes committed within any county which may be in possession of an enemy, or in which a general insurrection may prevail, the trial may by law be authorized in some other county of the same State, as near as may be to the seat of the offence.

In cases of crimes committed not within any county, the trial may by law be in such county as the laws shall have prescribed. In suits at common law, between man and man, the trial by jury, as one of the best securities to the rights of the people, ought to remain inviolate.

Eighthly. That immediately after article 6th, be inserted, as article 7th, the clauses following, to wit:

The powers delegated by this constitution, are appropriated to the departments to which they are respectively distributed: so that the legislative department shall never exercise the powers vested in the executive or judicial; nor the executive exercise the powers vested in the legislative or judicial; nor the judicial exercise the powers vested in the legislative or executive departments.

The powers not delegated by this constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the States respectively.

Ninthly. That article 7th, be numbered as article 8th.

- - - - - - - - - -

Federalist representatives were quick to attack Madison's proposal, fearing that any move to amend the new Constitution so soon after its implementation would create an appearance of instability in the government.[50] The House, unlike the Senate, was open to the public, and members such as Fisher Ames warned that a prolonged "dissection of the constitution" before the galleries could shake public confidence.[51] A procedural battle followed, and after initially forwarding the amendments to a select committee for revision, the House agreed to take Madison's proposal up as a full body beginning on July 21, 1789.[52][53]

The eleven-member committee made some significant changes to Madison's nine proposed amendments, including eliminating most of his preamble and adding the phrase "freedom of speech, and of the press".[54] The House debated the amendments for eleven days. Roger Sherman of Connecticut persuaded the House to place the amendments at the Constitution's end so that the document would "remain inviolate", rather than adding them throughout, as Madison had proposed.[55][56] The amendments, revised and condensed from twenty to seventeen, were approved and forwarded to the Senate on August 24, 1789.[57]

The Senate edited these amendments still further, making 26 changes of its own. Madison's proposal to apply parts of the Bill of Rights to the states as well as the federal government was eliminated, and the seventeen amendments were condensed to twelve, which were approved on September 9, 1789.[58] The Senate also eliminated the last of Madison's proposed changes to the preamble.[59]

On September 21, 1789, a House–Senate Conference Committee convened to resolve the numerous differences between the two Bill of Rights proposals. On September 24, 1789, the committee issued this report, which finalized 12 Constitutional Amendments for House and Senate to consider. This final version was approved by joint resolution of Congress on September 25, 1789, to be forwarded to the states on September 28.[60][61]

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   16:14:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: misterwhite (#34)

So? Madison promised that one would follow. They believed him and he delivered.

Madison's promise came as a campaign pledge while running for Congress against James Monroe. That is after the Constitution was ratified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Proposal and ratification

Anticipating amendments

James Madison, primary author and chief advocate for the Bill of Rights in the First Congress

The 1st United States Congress, which met in New York City's Federal Hall, was a triumph for the Federalists. The Senate of eleven states contained 20 Federalists with only two Anti-Federalists, both from Virginia. The House included 48 Federalists to 11 Anti-Federalists, the latter of whom were from only four states: Massachusetts, New York, Virginia and South Carolina.[34] Among the Virginia delegation to the House was James Madison, Patrick Henry's chief opponent in the Virginia ratification battle. In retaliation for Madison's victory in that battle at Virginia's ratification convention, Henry and other Anti-Federalists, who controlled the Virginia House of Delegates, had gerrymandered a hostile district for Madison's planned congressional run and recruited Madison's future presidential successor, James Monroe, to oppose him.[35] Madison defeated Monroe after offering a campaign pledge that he would introduce constitutional amendments forming a bill of rights at the First Congress.[36]

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   16:17:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: nolu chan (#35)

My point was that they did not trust the federal government. The BOR is proof of that.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-11   16:47:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: misterwhite (#37)

My point was that they did not trust the federal government. The BOR is proof of that.

In your dreams. The Congressional Register, on the amendments, holds otherwise.

Congressional Register, Vol. 2, p. 107

July 21, 1789

Mr. GERRY

He wished gentlemen to consider the situation of the states—seven out of thirteen had thought the constitution very defective, yet five of them has adopted it with a perfect reliance on congress for its improvement....

"A perfect reliance on the congress."

"A perfect reliance on the congress."

One more time.

"A perfect reliance on the congress."

Or, as you put it at #11,

the states refused to support the U.S. Constitution unless it contained a Bill of Rights.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   21:11:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: misterwhite (#32)

I believe he's thinking private paramilitary groups like the Michigan Militia (Wolverines) qualify as the "unorganized militia" and are protected by the second amendment.

The 2nd Amendment protects the RKBA of individuals and is not restricted to militia or any other group. Individuals in the Wolverines are protected by the 2nd Amendment. However, the RKBA has never protected some imaginary right to bear RPGs, SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers. That was not the right enjoyed under English common law by the colonists, and is not the right they brought forward with them into the United States.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-05-11   21:18:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: nolu chan (#38)

He wished gentlemen to consider the situation of the states—seven out of thirteen had thought the constitution very defective, yet five of them has adopted it with a perfect reliance on congress for its improvement....

As I said, they didn't like it but they trusted Madison to add a Bill of Rights.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-12   10:26:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: nolu chan (#39)

"The 2nd Amendment protects the RKBA of individuals and is not restricted to militia or any other group."

That's how the Heller court ruled, yes. They were wrong, but that's their ruling.

"However, the RKBA has never protected some imaginary right to bear RPGs, SAMs, machine guns, or flamethrowers."

Not even for the well-regulated and organized State militias? I seem to recall that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16 calls for "organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia."

We're going to have a dificult time protecting ourselves from an out-of-control Federal government with just the handguns protected by Heller.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-05-12   10:36:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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