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Title: Saudi prince: Maybe the Palestinians should've taken the deals they were offered
Source:
HotAir
URL Source: https://hotair.com/archives/2018/04 ... -shouldve-taken-deals-offered/
Published: Apr 30, 2018
Author: Ed Morrissey
Post Date: 2018-05-01 02:51:50 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 7051
Comments: 88
Now, MBS says, it’s time to make a deal or “shut up and stop complaining”: “In the last several decades the Palestinian leadership has missed one opportunity after the other and rejected all the peace proposals it was given. It is about time the Palestinians take the proposals and agree to come to the negotiations table or shut up and stop complaining.” MBS also made two other points on the Palestinian issue during the meeting: Under MBS’ leadership since taking effective power in June 2017, Saudi Arabia has aligned itself far more with the West. Decrees from the royal palace are now allowing women to drive and to dress in something other than black abayas and niqabs while in public. MBS has opened cinemas in Saudi Arabia for the first time in decades. He’s either cleaning up corruption or purging dissidents and hardliners, but either way MBS is making sure that he directs public policy for Saudi Arabia for the next several decades, and directs it to come closer to the West. The main intention of all this appears to be an effort to isolate Iran, which has become an existential threat to Sunni power in the region. Our invasion and then abandonment of Iraq didn’t help in that effort, which is why even the previous crown prince took a distinctly cool approach to Barack Obama at the end of his presidency. MBS knows that he’ll have to modernize in order to make Western nations comfortable with any partnership for the region, and that the glut on oil markets means that the Saudis can’t simply use energy as leverage any more. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they’ve been playing footsie with Tehran more than Riyadh, and now they’re going to pay for it. Choosing sides has consequences, and with the stakes as high as they are now, the Saudis see the Palestinians as dispensable. They’d rather ally openly with Israel to keep Iran at bay, and the best way to do that is for the Palestinians to take a deal and get on with their lives. Unfortunately again for the Palestinians, they still can’t decide what they want, or even how to discuss it: President Mahmoud Abbas is expected to use the four-day Palestinian National Council (PNC) meeting to renew his legitimacy and to install loyalists in powerful positions to begin shaping his legacy. Abbas has billed the meeting of the Palestinian National Council (PNC), the de facto parliament of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, as a chance to establish a united front against Israel and the United States, after President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. The hardline Islamists in Hamas and Islamic Jihad, both of which are aligned with Iran, have boycotted the event, ostensibly because its West Bank location puts them at risk of arrest by Israel. But Reuters notes that three factions of the PLO are also boycotting, in part because they believe Abbas hasn’t been open enough to working with IJ or Hamas. The event is seen as an anachronism by other Palestinians, a desperate attempt by Abbas to emphasize his legitimacy as the Palestinian Authority leader while being largely ignored by all sides. The Saudis have had enough. Perhaps Abbas should take MBS’ advice and cut a deal while he still can. Poster Comment: Ha! The Pali animals are being thrown under the bus as the Saudis see Israel as a more valuable ally in the struggle against Iranian hegemony instead of playing the whipping boy of Arab Jew-hate propaganda.
Or maybe they should stop sucking up to Iran. That’s the real subtext of the surprising rhetoric coming from Mohammed bin Salman, the young crown prince of Saudi Arabia who’s rewriting the Middle East script after seizing power in a family feud last year. Barak Ravid reports for Axios that MBS, as he’s colloquially known, told representatives of Jewish groups last month that while Saudi Arabia still wants a just and lasting settlement for the Palestinians, they could have gotten that themselves. According to my sources, the Saudi Crown Prince told the Jewish leaders: A powerful but rarely convened assembly that calls itself the Palestinian “supreme authority” meets for the first time in 22 years on Monday, but boycotts and rifts suggest it will struggle to achieve its stated goal of unity against Israel and the United States.
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#1. To: Tooconservative, Pinguinite, sneakypete, Vicomte13, Deckard (#0)
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Doesn't it matter. Whatever choice Indian tribes made the result was always the same. They had the land so they were targeted for extinction. All else is a smoke screen. Yeah; "The Pali animals". So were the Indian animals, Slav animals (WWII), slave Negro animals (when their labor was needed). You stink malodorously at this moment. Did you soil yourself?
Would you feel better if I called them Vermistinians?
I think you need a doctor.
What we are coming to is goodbye Palestine. Israel cannot afford another Iranian enclave on its borders. Faced with the possibility of increased Iranian presence in Syria, Israel cannot afford enemies like Iran so close. The shooting of many Palestinian protesters recently points to a ramping up of Israeli attitudes. If the Palestinians want a state they might have to give up Gaza, they will then have to deal with the problem of Hamas themselves
Whatever they give up will not be enough. They are cornered. BTW, the nearest Shia "Iranian" enclave is in southern Lebanon. Israel decided to invade it in 2006. Got sound beating and had to flee.
You mean the Saudi Peace Plan that was endorsed by the 22-member Arab League in 2002 at the Beirut Summit and re-endorsed at the 2007 Arab League summit and at the 2017 Arab League summit? Well, the Palestinians did accept that deal. Trouble is, the Israelis didn't. They'd rather steal the land and force the Palestinians out of the territory granted to them by UN Resolution 181.
Was Israel even allowed to attend this summit? LOL I didn't realize LF was such a hotbed of Israel-haters. And the Arab League is as toothless and unimportant as OPEC. You're stuck in the past. Even the Saudis have made hardcore changes in their Pali policies. The Gulf states will follow as usual.
Don't know. But they were presented with the plan and rejected it. "And the Arab League is as toothless and unimportant as OPEC." Still, you have 22 Arab nations agreeing to peace and a recognition of Israel. That's gotta count for something. "I didn't realize LF was such a hotbed of Israel- haters." For blockading Gaza and stealing Palestinian land and property? Nah. The Palestinians, however, don't like it one bit.
Their foreign minister welcomed it as part of a diplomatic dialogue. As usual, the Pali animals refused to negotiate under any terms with Israel. This is why the Sunni monarchs are abandoning the Palis. Their foreign policy will not be tied to this long-time loser of a policy, especially since they want Israel to be a military bulwark against expansion of Iran's hegemony across the region. And it doesn't hurt that Israel is a nuclear power. The Iranians alone might provoke an Israeli nuclear attack on them, solving the problems of the oil monarchs of the Gulf states and S.A. Nothing about the Palis offers a win like that for the oil-rich Sunni states. The Palis are just a bad bet that has never paid off and, after decades of failure, they're being cut loose. I guess all you Pali sympathizers will just have to get used to the new reality.
"The Arab Peace Plan has received the full support of Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority, which even took the unprecedented step of placing advertisements in Israeli newspapers on November 20, 2008 to promote it." "The Palestinian Authority published full-page notices in Hebrew in four major Israeli daily newspapers, which reproduced the text of the Initiative in full and added that "Fifty-seven Arab and Islamic countries will establish diplomatic ties and normal relations with Israel in return for a full peace agreement and an end to the occupation." Sure does look like they supported it. Israel didn't.
They both supported it publicly at a high level. But the Palis refused, as usual, to negotiate.
They offered a peace plan in 2002, 2007, and 2017 that had the support of the Arab states and gave Israel the peace and recognition they insisted on. Sorry. The Israelis are the ones who refused to negotiate. Then again, why should they? They have nukes.
They propose (to dictate) a treaty with Israel but the Palis constantly refuse to actually negotiate at all. They refuse to even acknowledge officially the existence of Israel in any form. They have taken this position for a long time.
That's in the peace plan.
Whatever they give up will not be enough. They are cornered. I hate to say it because no matter how much we may disagree,we ALL want the entire Muddle East to stop murdering each other as well as everyone else,but I just don't see it happening. Too much ignorance,and too many religious leaders to exploit the ignorance. Conflict means wealth and power to the shitheads running things all over the Muddle East,and since they are rarely the ones that do any dying because of it,they ain't going to give it up until somebody there manages to kill off ALL his opponents. Maybe not even then. It's not only what they do,it's who they are and have been for over a thousand years.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Their "peace plan" is to drive the Jews into the ocean. It always was. Now it is clear that that is not going to happen. And the Saudis no longer care much because Iran is a regional threat to the Sunni monarchs. And the Palis are embracing Iran as well. And so the Palis have invited the Sunni monarchs to abandon their cause.
First of all, there is no such country or people as Palestine. These are mongrel squatters on land legally purchased by Israel in the late 19th century. Until the Jews bought the land from Arabs who thought they were stupid for wanting to buy it, the land was virtually uninhabitable. The Jews through hard labor made the land livable. The Arabs there now are just the offspring of laborers who came there to be hired by the jews. Other Arab countries have plenty of money to take care of these squatters if they really wanted to. The point is nothing was ever stolen.
While you may be right there was a British mandated territory called Palestine "In 1918, the Jewish Legion, a group primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.[133] Arab opposition to British rule and Jewish immigration led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of a Jewish militia known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi, or the Stern Gang, paramilitary groups later split off.[134] In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine under terms which included the Balfour Declaration with its promise to the Jews, and with similar provisions regarding the Arab Palestinians.[135] The population of the area at this time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11%,[136] and Arab Christians at about 9.5% of the population.[137]" ~ Wikipaedia The name Palestine has been used for a long time, having originally been used by the Romans. Clearly, there were arabs in the early twentieth century
Mmm, delicious phrase. Did you lift it from Der Sturmer? You might like this map of avg brain size (native populations no squatters) By the way, do you realize that Jews are more "mongrelized" than Palestinians?
Palestine refers to a region. There is no country of Palestine.
The Jews legally bought and owned the land. There was virtually nobody living there when they did.
Earlier. Palestine. from Latin Palestina (name of a Roman province), from Greek Palaistine (Herodotus), from Hebrew Pelesheth "Philistia, land of the Philistines." They were in Canaan before Hebrews. The map below shows the actual Jewish Kingdom - Judea. Israel - Samaritan kingdom of "the lost tribes" is in blue to the north. Edom (descendents of Esau, brother of Jacob) were converted by force to Judaism under Maccabee rule. Since they they make major part of Sephardi - Middle Eastern DNA ;) Ashkenazi Jews DNA in male lineage (Y chromosome) derives in large part from Sephardim and from converted Khazars ( semi-nomadic Turkic tribe north of Caucasus and Caspian Sea). In female line (marked by mitochondria) most of genes come from Germanic/Slavic gene pool. So much for racial purity. Jews are not a race, it is a RELIGION!
Exactly like in North America. White settlers legally bought and own the land. Indian tribes were inferior race, that were nobody. Jawohl, Parteigenosse.
Your Muslim cousins don't want peace. Israel should just kill them all. Yes that means all of them. You should go and fight for your Muslim cousins. You're a pussy letting your people down.
You mean all 6 millions of them? Including Christians?
The land was barren and virtually uninhabitable before the Jews improved it. Nobody lived there except for a few nomads. The injuns were killing each other long before any white men came. They were even warring with other members of their own tribes.
"Barren" land of Palestine end of XIX and first decades of XX century:
Maybe put them in boxcars and ship them off to concentration camps like Auschwitz, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka? What the fuck makes you any different than the Nazis?
Four thousand.
Well, he is a Nazi. Only with different "master race"
And there won't be if Israel has their way.
Northern Peoples have the biggest brain buckets.
so this would suggest Russians are smarter than the rest, if they are so damn smart how come they haven't learned to come in from the cold, and this map might also explain something about my neighbours
My head is too large for the hats. I need XXL size, hard to find. Really.
Northern peoples have the largest empty heads
When the British Mandate of Palestine was divided by UN 181 into two territories -- one for the Jews and one for the Palestinians -- that division was based on location of the settlers in the area. "These boundaries were based solely on demographics. Overall, the Jewish State was to be comprised of roughly 5,500 square miles and the population was to be 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs. The Arab State was to be 4,500 square miles with a population of 804,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews."
They like the cold.
Yeah. Some wandering Jew pitched a tent in the desert 4,000 years ago and that established the State of Israel forever.
From whom?
And Israel has plenty of money and territory to abide by UN 242 and allow the Palestinians their own state.
For many centuries, Palestine was a sparsely populated, poorly cultivated and widely-neglected expanse of eroded hills, sandy deserts and malarial marshes. Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described it as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." As late as 1880, the American consul in Jerusalem reported the area was continuing its historic decline. "The population and wealth of Palestine has not increased during the last forty years," he said. The Report of the Palestine Royal Commission quotes an account of the Maritime Plain in 1913: The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached [the Jewish village of] Yabna [Yavne]....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants. Lewis French, the British Director of Development wrote of Palestine: We found it inhabited by fellahin who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the prevalent malaria....Large areas...were uncultivated....The fellahin, if not themselves cattle thieves, were always ready to harbor these and other criminals. The individual plots...changed hands annually. There was little public security, and the fellahin's lot was an alternation of pillage and blackmail by their neighbors, the Bedouin. Surprisingly, many people who were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause believed the Jews would improve the condition of Palestinian Arabs. For example, Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: "It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country." Even a leading Arab nationalist believed the return of the Jews to their homeland would help resuscitate the country. According to Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia: The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna'ihilasliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor. A Population Boom As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947. This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943. The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem. Jewish Land Purchases Despite the growth in their population, the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. The truth is from the beginning of World War I, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins. Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price." It was only after the Jews had bought all of this available land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry. When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay." In 1931, Lewis French conducted a survey of landlessness and eventually offered new plots to any Arabs who had been "dispossessed." British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government's legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer. In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al-Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded. The Peel Commission's report found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless. It pointed out that "much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased....there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land." Moreover, the Commission found the shortage was "due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population." The report concluded that the presence of Jews in Palestine, along with the work of the British Administration, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities. In his memoirs, Transjordan's King Abdullah wrote: It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping (author's emphasis). Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews. The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. "In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre." By 1947, Jewish holdings in Palestine amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin. Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As'ad elShuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement, including members of the Muslim Supreme Council, sold land to Jews.
Those so called "Palestinians" weren't even there until the Jews bought the land and made it inhabitable.
The Palestinians have actually had numerous opportunities to create an independent state, but have repeatedly rejected the offers: In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed the partition of Palestine and the creation of an Arab state. In 1939, the British White Paper proposed the creation of a unitary Arab state. In 1947, the UN would have created an even larger Arab state as part of its partition plan. The 1979 Egypt-Israel peace negotiations offered the Palestinians autonomy, which would almost certainly have led to full independence. The Oslo agreements of the 1990s laid out a path for Palestinian independence, but the process was derailed by terrorism. In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. In 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from almost the entire West Bank and partition Jerusalem on a demographic basis. In addition 1948 to 1967, Israel did not control the West Bank. The Palestinians could have demanded an independent state from the Jordanians. On the contrary whilst Jordan was in control Arafat said there was no longer a claim as it was no longer part of Palestine. Once it was back in Israeli hands it miraculously became disputed land again! This is one of many reasons Jews and Israelis are cynical. The Palestinians have spurned each of these opportunities. A variety of reasons have been given for why the Palestinians have in Abba Eban’s words, “never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” Historian Benny Morris has suggested that the Palestinians have religious, historical, and practical reasons for opposing an agreement with Israel. He says that “Arafat and his generation cannot give up the vision of the greater land of Israel for the Arabs. [This is true because] this is a holy land, Dar al-Islam [the world of Islam]. It was once in the hands of the Muslims, and it is inconceivable [to them] that infidels like us [the Israelis] would receive it.” The Palestinians also believe that time is on their side. “They feel that demographics will defeat the Jews in one hundred or two hundred years, just like the Crusaders.” The Palestinians, Morris says, also hope the Arabs will acquire nuclear weapons in the future that will allow them to defeat Israel. In 2000, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 isolated settlements. In exchange for the 3 percent annexation of the West Bank, Israel said it would give up territory in the Negev that would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third. Barak also made previously unthinkable concessions on Jerusalem, agreeing that Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capital of the new state. The Palestinians would maintain control over their holy places and have “religious sovereignty” over the Temple Mount. According to U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross, Israel offered to create a Palestinian state that was contiguous, and not a series of cantons. Even in the case of the Gaza Strip, which must be physically separate from the West Bank unless Israel were to be cut into non-contiguous pieces, a solution was devised whereby an overland highway would connect the two parts of the Palestinian state without any Israeli checkpoints or interference. The proposal also addressed the Palestinian refugee issue, guaranteeing them the right of return to the Palestinian state and reparations from a $30 billion fund that would be collected from international donors to compensate them. “In his last conversation with President Clinton, Arafat told the President that he was “a great man.” Clinton responded, “The hell I am. I’m a colossal failure, and you made me one.” Arafat was asked to agree to Israeli sovereignty over the parts of the Western Wall religiously significant to Jews (i.e., not the entire Temple Mount), and three early warning stations in the Jordan Valley, which Israel would withdraw from after six years. Most important, however, Arafat was expected to agree that the conflict with Israel was over at the end of the negotiations. This was the true deal breaker. Arafat was not willing to end the conflict. “For him to end the conflict is to end himself,” said Ross. The prevailing view of the Camp David/White House negotiations—that Israel offered generous concessions, and that Yasser Arafat rejected them to pursue the war that began in September 2000—was acknowledged for more than a year. To counter the perception that Arafat was the obstacle to peace, the Palestinians and their supporters then began to suggest a variety of excuses for why Arafat failed to say “yes” to a proposal that would have established a Palestinian state. The truth is that if the Palestinians were dissatisfied with any part of the Israeli proposal, all they had to do was offer a counterproposal. They never did. Anyone that is against Israel should satisfy themselves as why this may have been? I believe, when it comes to the Palestinians, as David Crosby has it: "They Want It All"
The Saudi Peace Plan calls for a Palestinian State with the borders defined in UN 242 (in the aftermath of the Six-Day War). This gives Israel more land than they had before under UN 181. Israel rejected it and continues to this day to steal land beyond the Green Line. Because they can.
The only people there were Palestinians until the Jews fled Europe and moved in. They bought the land from Palestinians, nitwit.
Palestine would look like Indonesia without the water.
What voluntary concessions has Israel made in their conflict with the Palestinians? In 1947, Israel accepted the UN partition plan that allotted it only part of the land west of the Jordan, even though all Palestine west and east of the Jordan had been mandated to the British for the cultivation of a Jewish homeland. The Arab leaders rejected the plan. After the War of Independence, Israel offered compensation for the property that displaced Arabs had lost (some accepted compensation, many didn't), and it allowed thousands of Arabs back. In 1967, having conquered Jerusalem, Israel refrained from asserting full authority over the Temple Mount, leaving day-to-day management to the Muslim Waqf. Rather than keep the West Bank Arabs at a distance, it allowed them free travel into Israel and back (until terrorism forced a stop). In the Oslo agreements, which were intended (at least by Israel) as an interim step toward a termination of conflict, Israel allowed the Palestinian Arab leaders, despite their terrorist past, to return from Tunisian exile and form the Palestinian Authority. It gave them civilian authority over a large portion of the population and terrain and it permitted the return of thousands more Arabs into Israel itself. In the course of further negotiations, Israel has made such gestures as prisoner releases and building freezes. The most dramatic gesture was the total withdrawal from Gaza. Just as Oslo was followed by a wave of suicide bombings against Israel, the withdrawal from Gaza was followed by rocket attacks on Israel. Nonetheless, to this day Israel provides water and electricity to Gaza. There are small concessions being offered all the time. For the most part, Israel has stuck to the 1993 Oslo Accords in terms of passing on territory to the Palestinian government as they have not fulfilled their end of the deal that would facilitate more transfers. I really don’t want to go into all the concessions, but I’ll just state two instances. The first and more recent was an attempt to kickstart peace talks before Donald Trump visited Israel. The other and more well known concession was when Israel released 104 long-term prisoners, including murderers and those who assisted murders from prison as part of a demand to start peace talks with the Palestinians. I can’t think of any country other than Israel that would do that.
They bought the land from a number of Arabs at inflated prices. The so-called Palestinians are mostly just Jordanians.
I admire your meaty posts here but you are up against crypto-antisemites here. They mount (deliberately) uninformed propaganda to justify their Joo-hate. You cannot reasonably hope to persuade them by arguing from the facts.
These guys are pikers compared to the Jew haters over at Freedumb4um.
There were other British reports, also from XIX century, about poverty in Irish villages. Must be English rule there was not much better , than of the Turks. Do you hate Irish too?
Poverty was not unique for the Arabs under Turkish rule, or for the Irish. Photos from Jewish town in 1920s Poland: Next decade, poor Americans: Poor Polish children in 1930s Poland:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. That everybody who supports jews like people living in poverty? Maybe you hate these guys:
Look, half of my family was killed during the WWII by people like you. I know your kind. It is you who hates people who are weaker, or poor, or stigmatized. I do not hate you at all. Probably you act our early trauma, when you felt to be under.
I don't see that coming from gnu. But there is a real stench of unwarranted smug condescension and Lefty accusations of various "thought crimes" reeking in every post you make.
I don't hate anybody poor, Pole. My dad grew up in the depression and was genuinely hungry almost every day of his life at that time. This isn't about poor people. It's about propaganda - keeping people poor to promote a political agenda.
So you try to distance yourself from the poor and excluded, by contempt and hostility. I had comfortable childhood. Not because my parents were Commies, they were professionals who had good start before Communism. After the Communists took over they got "impoverished" as they could have only one servant. Grandparents had several. I do not claim any credit for my inherited privilege, same way I do not put any blame on my friends of poor background. Yet, sometimes I feel in them bitterness and resentment toward people like me. Those are toxic feeling, try to free yourself from them. Life and universe are greater than the social divisions and injustice.
Sorry, I will try harder not to be smug ;)
Well, I can appreciate your background. The people in Palestine could be living in luxury right now if the other Muslims wanted it.
Just the opposite. They screwed the ignorant peasants. Man, you are like 0 for 10 in your claims. Where are you getting your information from?
Honestly? They offered not to take as much land as they were planning on taking. That's their "concession". "even though all Palestine west and east of the Jordan had been mandated to the British for the cultivation of a Jewish homeland." Nope. The Balfour Declaration stated, “His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.” A home for the Jewish people in Palestine. Not, "All of Palestine as a home for the Jewish people. All others not welcome". Which is how the Israelis read it.
I'm waiting for facts. All I'm getting is propaganda.
Not total withdrawal. Israel continues their 12-year blockade of Gaza which has "devastated Gaza's economy, caused widespread destruction and left most people largely cut off from the outside world." Then Israel has the balls to say, "See? The Palestinians can't function without us."
Reputable sources. I've given numerous examples of where Israel tried to give reasonable offers to these mongrel Arabs, and you you have ignored them all. Arafat died a multi-millionaire. Why do you think that is? This could go on forever. If you wish to worship people who cheered the 911 terrorism and want to hate Jews, feel free to continue in your line of thought. However, I am done.
They were not the least bit reasonable. UN 242 was reasonable. The Saudi Peace Plan was reasonable.
Go to the hospitals that specialize in treating hydrocephalics.
That's the way that "claims" get made, isn't it? "It's mine!" "No it isn't!" "It's MINE!" "Why would you even think that?" "Because I said 'It's mine' first!" "So what?" "So therefore, it's mine!" "No it isn't." "Well, me and this gun here say that it's mine." "Ah. Well. Alright then." Later: "He ADMITTED that it's mine!" "No I didn't." "You said 'Alright', which means that you admitted it's mine." "No, you were pointing a gun at me, so I said what I needed to say to save my life. I do not admit that it's yours." "You did!" "I did not!" "You DID!" "No, I didn't." Both whip out guns and shoot each other, with their families watching. 10 years later, the boy of one of the deceased says to the boy of the other "It's mine!"
He, he. I did have tomography. No water, only brain tissue.
And there won't be if Israel has their way. And either way it is none of our concern.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I don't know if Russians are smarter than other Europeans,but I do know they are the only Europeans who haven't been living as slaves ever since the country was founded. First it was the Czar,and then it was the Commizar. Either way things were upside down,and the idiots were in charge. A smart man that wants to live takes care to not embarrass or insult his idiot master. I also know I have met a hell of a lot of smart Russians.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Have you tried letting some of the hot air escape?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Yeah,those two look like they are having fun.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Why do you care?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
No kidding. I finally had to quit posting there. You just can't reason with foaming at the mouth cretins.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
That's where I am on this conflict between Jew and Muslim, Israeli and Palestinian, and the whole Middle East. Time was, we needed the oil, so it mattered. Now we are an oil exporter, so the whole region doesn't matter so much. It's a hopeless mess because of 4000 years of stubborn and violent culture. Two religions, neither of which are mine, are in violent conflict (my co- religionists are being driven out of the region in droves). So, I say have generous immigration to CHRISTIANS fleeing the violence of the Middle East - and Christianity is easy to test. And as to the rest of the nuthouse? Not my circus, not my monkeys, don't need the region, don't care, ain't gonna - and wish we'd just get out.
"The U.S. has sent almost $300 billion in military and economic aid to troubled Middle East and Central Asian countries over the past six decades." That's our tax dollars. And what has it gotten us? THAT'S why I care.
Don't take it personally and you don't know they got it anyway, many intermediataries. Giving people aid doesn't buy you anything, not even loyality
Don't be ridiculous! It buys votes every day of the week,and politicians exist to gather votes. Kind of like tiny little perpetual motion machines. They say they have to get voted back into office in order to do anything,so they need to focus more on gathering votes than anything else. ESPECIALLY more than they spend on trying to bring America back on a Constitutional footing. kinda makes you wonder which came first,the bribe or the vote,doesn't it?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
It doesn't explain why they are so poor with an economy much smaller than Texas despite considerable oil wealth. They also tend to drink themselves to death at an early age. And they only seem happy while living under despots of some flavor or another. It never works out for them though. Maybe they aren't so smart.
Certainly the bribe
THAT'S why I care. We are brothers on THAT one! I say we just let the backwards bastards kill each other off,and maybe make a few bucks selling them weapons to do it with.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
No,but communism does. They also tend to drink themselves to death at an early age. Yes,they do. If you didn't know any better,you would think they are Irish. In the case of the Russians,it is 100 years of being born and living in a communist police state. In the case of the Irish,it is possibly hundreds of years of living in a Catholic police state,plus they just like to drink and fight. And they only seem happy while living under despots of some flavor or another. And how would we know that? Other than the 15 minutes or so of living free under Yeltsin,all they have ever known were despots,going back to the time of the Mongol invasions. Maybe even before the Mongols. It never works out for them though. It never works out for anyone but the despot and his family.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Certainly the bribe You are right,of course. In fact,it could be safely claimed that a vote is little more than a bribe magnet.
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Well, as Kanye said, after 400 years it sounds like a choice.
Hey! If you can't trust the wisdom of a brilliant man like Kanye,who can you trust?
In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Oh, spare us the sarcasm, please
I think Kanye sucks, about as much as Will Smith whose fame and fortune I never grasped either.
Let us put aside the question, if the purchasing power parity is or not the proper way to measure economy size. Russia looks quite typical when you do not compare her with USA, Dubai or Liechtenstein. The real question why Americans got so rich? 1. they started from the high point, being better than average settlers from the most civilized and prosperous countries. 2. they were protected by the oceans from foreign invasions and wars 3. they did not waste time and resources on bringing primitive tribes up and to integrate. They just exterminated them. 4. in XIX century they distributed seized lands for free to the general public 5. they inherited from British, French and Spanish colonial methods of wealth and labor extraction and more ...
Maybe the Palestinians should've taken the deals they were offered The Pali animals are being thrown under the bus
#2. To: A Pole (#1)
Yeah; "The Pali animals".
#3. To: Tooconservative (#2)
Would you feel better if I called them Vermistinians?
#4. To: Tooconservative (#0)
(Edited)
#5. To: paraclete (#4)
. If the Palestinians want a state they might have to give up Gaza
#6. To: Tooconservative (#0)
Saudi prince: Maybe the Palestinians should've taken the deals they were offered
#7. To: misterwhite (#6)
(Edited)
You mean the Saudi Peace Plan that was endorsed by the 22-member Arab League in 2002 at the Beirut Summit and re-endorsed at the 2007 Arab League summit and at the 2017 Arab League summit?
#8. To: Tooconservative (#7)
Was Israel even allowed to attend this summit?
#9. To: misterwhite (#8)
Don't know. But they were presented with the plan and rejected it.
#10. To: Tooconservative (#9)
As usual, the Pali animals refused to negotiate under any terms with Israel.
-- Wiki
#11. To: misterwhite (#10)
#12. To: Tooconservative (#11)
But the Palis refused, as usual, to negotiate.
#13. To: misterwhite (#12)
#14. To: Tooconservative (#13)
They refuse to even acknowledge officially the existence of Israel in any form.
#15. To: A Pole (#5)
. If the Palestinians want a state they might have to give up Gaza
#16. To: misterwhite (#14)
That's in the peace plan.
#17. To: misterwhite (#8)
For blockading Gaza and stealing Palestinian land and property?
#18. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
First of all, there is no such country or people as Palestine.
#19. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
"These are mongrel squatters"
#20. To: paraclete (#18)
#21. To: A Pole (#19)
#22. To: paraclete (#18)
#23. To: no gnu taxes (#21)
The Jews legally bought and owned the land. There was virtually nobody living there when they did.
#24. To: misterwhite (#10)
#25. To: A K A Stone (#24)
Israel should just kill them all. Yes that means all of them.
#26. To: A Pole (#23)
#27. To: no gnu taxes (#26)
The land was barren and virtually uninhabitable before the Jews improved it. Nobody lived there except for a few nomads.
#28. To: A K A Stone (#24)
Israel should just kill them all. Yes that means all of them.
#29. To: sneakypete (#15)
=It's not only what they do,it's who they are and have been for over a thousand years.
#30. To: misterwhite, A K A Stone, sneakypete, Pinguinite, Vicomte13, Tooconservative, Deckard (#28)
What the fuck makes you any different than the Nazis?
#31. To: no gnu taxes (#20)
Palestine refers to a region. There is no country of Palestine.
#32. To: A Pole (#19)
You might like this map of avg brain size (native populations no squatters)
#33. To: A Pole (#19)
You might like this map of avg brain size
#34. To: Vicomte13 (#32)
Northern Peoples have the biggest brain buckets.
#35. To: A Pole (#34)
#36. To: no gnu taxes (#21)
The Jews legally bought and owned the land. There was virtually nobody living there when they did.
-- ht http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-u-n-partition-plan
#37. To: paraclete (#33)
if they are so damn smart how come they haven't learned to come in from the cold
#38. To: Vicomte13 (#29)
Four thousand.
#39. To: no gnu taxes (#21)
The Jews legally bought and owned the land.
#40. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
Other Arab countries have plenty of money to take care of these squatters if they really wanted to.
#41. To: A Pole (#27)
#42. To: misterwhite (#36)
#43. To: misterwhite (#40)
And Israel has plenty of money and territory to abide by UN 242 and allow the Palestinians their own state.
#44. To: no gnu taxes (#43)
I believe, when it comes to the Palestinians, as David Crosby has it: "They Want It All"
#45. To: no gnu taxes (#42)
Those so called "Palestinians" weren't even there until the Jews bought the land and made it inhabitable.
#46. To: no gnu taxes (#43)
In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank.
#47. To: misterwhite (#45)
(Edited)
#48. To: misterwhite (#45)
The only people there were Palestinians until the Jews fled Europe and moved in.
#49. To: no gnu taxes, A K A Stone (#43)
#50. To: Tooconservative (#7)
I didn't realize LF was such a hotbed of Israel-haters.
#51. To: no gnu taxes (#41)
We found it inhabited by fellahin who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the prevalent malaria
#52. To: All (#51)
#53. To: A Pole (#51)
#54. To: no gnu taxes (#53)
(Edited)
Maybe you hate these guys:
#55. To: A Pole (#54)
It is you who hates people who are weaker, or poor, or stigmatized.
#56. To: A Pole (#54)
#57. To: no gnu taxes (#56)
I don't hate anybody poor, Pole. My dad grew up in the depression and was genuinely hungry almost every day of his life at that time.
#58. To: Tooconservative (#55)
But there is a real stench of unwarranted smug condescension and Lefty accusations of various "thought crimes" reeking in every post you make.
#59. To: A Pole (#57)
#60. To: no gnu taxes (#48)
They bought the land from a number of Arabs at inflated prices.
#61. To: no gnu taxes (#47)
What voluntary concessions has Israel made in their conflict with the Palestinians?
#62. To: Tooconservative, no gnu taxes (#49)
You cannot reasonably hope to persuade them by arguing from the facts.
#63. To: no gnu taxes (#47)
The most dramatic gesture was the total withdrawal from Gaza.
#64. To: misterwhite (#60)
Where are you getting your information from?
#65. To: no gnu taxes (#64)
I've given numerous examples of where Israel tried to give reasonable offers
#66. To: A Pole (#34)
I need XXL size, hard to find. Really.
#67. To: misterwhite (#38)
Yeah. Some wandering Jew pitched a tent in the desert 4,000 years ago and that established the State of Israel forever.
#68. To: Vicomte13 (#66)
Go to the hospitals that specialize in treating hydrocephalics.
#69. To: misterwhite (#31)
Palestine refers to a region. There is no country of Palestine.
#70. To: paraclete (#33)
so this would suggest Russians are smarter than the rest,
#71. To: A Pole (#34)
My head is too large for the hats. I need XXL size, hard to find. Really.
#72. To: A Pole (#37)
They like the cold.
#73. To: misterwhite (#38)
Yeah. Some wandering Jew pitched a tent in the desert 4,000 years ago and that established the State of Israel forever.
#74. To: no gnu taxes (#50)
These guys are pikers compared to the Jew haters over at Freedumb4um.
#75. To: sneakypete (#73)
(Edited)
Why do you care?
#76. To: Vicomte13 (#75)
#77. To: misterwhite (#76)
That's our tax dollars. And what has it gotten us? THAT'S why I care.
#78. To: paraclete (#77)
(Edited)
Giving people aid doesn't buy you anything, not even loyality
#79. To: sneakypete (#70)
I also know I have met a hell of a lot of smart Russians.
#80. To: sneakypete (#78)
kinda makes you wonder which came first, the bribe or the vote, doesn't it?
#81. To: misterwhite (#76)
"The U.S. has sent almost $300 billion in military and economic aid to troubled Middle East and Central Asian countries over the past six decades." That's our tax dollars. And what has it gotten us?
#82. To: Tooconservative (#79)
It doesn't explain why they are so poor with an economy much smaller than Texas despite considerable oil wealth.
#83. To: paraclete (#80)
kinda makes you wonder which came first, the bribe or the vote, doesn't it?
#84. To: sneakypete (#82)
And how would we know that? Other than the 15 minutes or so of living free under Yeltsin,all they have ever known were despots,going back to the time of the Mongol invasions. Maybe even before the Mongols.
#85. To: Tooconservative (#84)
Well, as Kanye said, after 400 years it sounds like a choice.
#86. To: sneakypete (#85)
Hey! If you can't trust the wisdom of a brilliant man like Kanye,who can you trust?
#87. To: sneakypete (#85)
#88. To: Tooconservative (#79)
It doesn't explain why they are so poor with an economy much smaller than Texas despite considerable oil wealth.
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