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Title: Not Good: U.K. Traces Nerve Agent in Poisoning to Ex-Russian Spy’s Home
Source:
The Wall Street Journal
URL Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-to ... ussian-millionaires-1522258755
Published: Mar 28, 2018
Author: staff
Post Date: 2018-03-28 22:00:21 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 711
Comments: 17
LONDON—After combing through hours of security-camera footage and speaking to hundreds of witnesses, British investigators said Wednesday they believe that the nerve agent used to poison a former Russian spy and his daughter had been applied to the front door of their house. Considerations like this could lead to war. Government says it would review hundreds of visas granted to wealthy Russians in response to attack it blames on Kremlin By Jenny Gross Updated March 28, 2018 7:49 p.m. ET
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#1. To: buckeroo (#0)
This is new. I thought they traced it to the ventilation system in their car. If it was applied to their front door, it sounds like it could have been anyone. But of course Britain is dead set to find a Russian to blame it on.
why are you trying to avoid blaming a Russian? Do people in the UK have access to weapons grade nerve agents? The nerve agent has been identified as something developed by the Russians, sort of a smoking gun
In a word: Motive. What's the motive? Who gains from this attack? Russia does not gain. But there are plenty of other western countries that do gain from framing them to garner this exact response. And if Russia wanted this spy dead, why would they use a sloppy nerve agent when there are no shortage of poisons they could have administered to kill him without inflicting collateral injury as the nerve attack did, if not completely discretely to make it look like a heart attack. It's clear to me that whomever did this wanted it to make international headlines, and wanted Russia to be blamed. It just makes no sense otherwise. Regardless of what people may think of Putin in good/evil terms, he is, without argument, a very intelligent & calculating guy. He would not have ordered this unless he had something to gain. The Russian news "Russia Today" claims the Brits do have a chem weapons lab not far from the crime scene. The Brits are not claiming the gas is from the same "class" of agents as Novichok. As the Brits claim, all the while refusing to give the Russians samples. This is in fact required under international law in these cases. If the Russians are guilty, fine, but why deny them a fair trial? Are the Brits hiding something? The entire west views Russia through the 20th century glasses of communism and a repressed society under an authoritarian government. Those days are gone. Now, Russia is a democracy with it's back to the wall with former Warsaw Pact countries now part of NATO and the US having sponsored a coup in Russia's former ally of Ukraine. The west now has control of countries very close and even on Russia's borders, and yet so many Americans still view Russia as the tyrannical imperialistic bear. No, Putin would have to be stupid to order this nerve gas attack. And Putin is simply not stupid. Not even close. There are plenty of other countries, however, that stand to gain from staging this, so yes, I'm avoiding the "blame Russia" lynch mob, which is what it is right now.
Seems that Putin starts to look more and more like Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi. Do you think that he should end up the same way? Actually yes. Read this about secret research center in Porton Down (few minutes away from Skripal house): The past Porton Down can't hide Actually it was being developed in Uzbekistan Nukus plan. "Andrew C. Weber, a former assistant secretary of defense for nuclear, chemical and biological defense programs, recalls picking his way through a secret, abandoned Soviet research facility in Nukus, Uzbekistan, which the United States was asked to helped destroy in the early 2000s."
Yes,it does. Do you think that he should end up the same way? Unless and until he becomes an actual threat to America,it's none of our business and not for us to say one way or another. That's up to the Russian people. If/when he becomes a serious threat to America,he should be squashed like the KGB slug he is. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Well, expansionist Russia brings her borders closer and closers to NATO troops. Sankt Petersburg is 1 minutes missile flight to Estonia. More menacing that Cuban Crisis of 1961. Since Russia got nukes, she was always a serious threat. Perhaps she needs to be deprived of those sinister weapons and squashed for good, like Iraq and Libya?
Sure! But how do we get there without the whole world being wiped out, us included? Obviously the BEST result (for us anyway) would be to return to the era between 1945 and 1949 when we alone had the atomic bomb and nobody else did. Then we would be able to take care of some things. Chinese platforms? Send the Marines and push the Chinese off. And let Taiwan declare independence. Nuke the Chinese if they try to invade. Crimea back in the Ukraine? Land the Marines, drive out the Russians, nuke them if they try to invade. Etc. Having the monopoly on nuclear weapons, large numbers of them, and the willingness to use them in the early stages of any war to exterminate the nation that dares to raise a sword against America will very quickly cause the world to fall in line under our rule, or be exterminated by nuclear fire and cease to be a problem. Obviously that would be best. The Soviets knew that too, which is why they stole the plans for nukes from us and made a lot of them. And then China. It's why the NORKs want nukes. It's why Israel is invincible. If the Arabs ever DID break through conventionally, the Israelis would use nuclear weapons to quasi-exterminate the Arab race in the countries around them, and that would be that. Nuclear weapons guarantee national security of any nation, because nobody can conquer you if you can wipe them out. So yes, it would be great if we could take out the Russian nukes, because then we would rule the world. Similarly, it would be great for the Russians if they could take our our nukes, because then THEY could rule the world and make no mistake about it: they would, just as we would (and largely HAVE, since World War II). If neither of us, then China. Etc. The problem remains: how, EXACTLY, do you get at Russia's nukes without getting nuked in the process. ANSWER: You don't. You can't. It's impossible. Therefore, better give up the dream of ruling the world, because it is impossible to achieve, by anyone, thanks to nuclear weapons. All we can achieve is universal bereavement, extinction. Living well in our half of the world and letting our evil enemies do the same in THEIR half is far better, for US, then all dying trying to take them out. We need to set our standards and expectations far lower. Stopping Russians from abusing Russians and Norks from abusing Norks is outside of our power. For us to continue to live good lives, Russians have to be allowed to rot in prison because they crossed their government, and Norks have to be allowed to torture and kill Norks. Too bad for the Russians and too bad for the Norks - but we didn't do it. God will punish Putin and Kim. It's not our job, and I'm not willing to die because some other jackass American has an overgrown sense of responsibility to take care of the rest of the world. In fact, for my own happiness it is MUCH more important that aggressive, "the world is our responsibility" men on my own side be crushed down, by people like me, and THEIR political ambitions to fix the world be defeated, by my indifference. I dislike Russian thugs and bullies. But they're on the other side of the world, and if they ever tried to come here I would be perfectly willing to vaporize them (and, unfortunately, all of the innocent children, women and men on THEIR side of the world) in order to keep myself free. But I really hate crusading puritans on MY side of the world, in MY country and culture, because they do things like take away alcohol, or guns, or the ability to smoke or ingest what I want (even though I want nothing - I am unwilling to empower the police to bother other people about THEIR drug habits). So, really, my American political adversaries who want to oppress the rights I care about here, are MUCH greater enemies, problems, cockroaches who need to be defeated, in my mind, than Putin, or Kim - or, I suppose, in the era, Hitler, Stalin and Tojo. We had to go OVER THERE, because Tojo came OVER HERE and Hitler sided with him. Because THEY made it life or death for us, here, I am content to have cremated lots of Japanese and Germans. I don't believe in master races or cultures, but I certainly believe that my OWN life, and that of my family, friends and countrymen, are far more important than the lives of other people elsewhere, so if they attack us, I'm perfectly willing to exterminate entire civilizations if it makes them go away and no longer threaten me. Now, of course, Christ tells me that this is bad. And I know he's right. So I settle back and let go of the idea of simply pre-emptively wiping out all of the potentially threatening people, and I accept that the best thing, really, is the balance of power that prevents ANY of us from winning, and make defeat certain for ALL of us if we try - so that THEREFORE nobody tries. Then we live in peace here, and that CAN live in peace there, if they want to. But they can't get here. Unfortunately, that DOES mean we can't get there to save the weak if the strong devour them. But it DOES mean that, so we have to let God handle THAT justice: it's not our job, not our mandate, not our responsibility.
It's one element we people have in common, generally. Everybody wants to rule the world. Even those with good intent want to rule it to impose their idea of "good" upon everyone else, and even good intentions can have evil consequences. Right now, yes the USA is ruling the world. Or most of it anyway, and while I've defended Russia extensively in recent times, particularly with this nerve gas incident in London, I've no delusions that Russia would not and will not do the same in the future if their current rollback in world affairs is ever reversed. They will strive for power again, no less so than Singapore, Magascar or Bolivia would if they were given the chance. Still right now Russia is almost with their backs to the wall while the USA is on a global rampage of world domination, seeing fit to do things like unapologetically encourage the coup in the Ukraine bringing about all the loss of life and destruction there, including the Malaysian airline shootdown (even if the rebels did shoot it down, which I think likely but not certain, had there been no coup, there would not have been any war in the first place). So.... given the current playing field and offenses, it's the USA that needs to be penalized, not the Russians.
Which is why letting Trump get together with Putin and stopping the "Trump colludes with the [GASP] RUSSIANS!" meme. The USA and Russia HAVE TO collude if were gonna have peace and prosperity for both. Reagan and Gorbachev managed it, and Trump seems to WANT to do that - he's being blocked HERE, not by Russia. It's obvious that Putin is a rational actor and would welcome it. He has said so, openly, many times, during the election and since. Trump can make deals, and Putin is in a better position to make deals than Gorbachev ever was. Putin has also been at the cheated end of deals by American Presidents before, so he's likely to be much better at upholding Russia's interests in the dealmaking than before. The problem with bad deals is that the leader of the other country may agree to it, but if the people hate the deal nothing is accomplished. You have to walk away with the general electorates on both sides of the world feel as though progress was made, their side was not rolled, they accomplished something. Trump is a master at dealmaking, and Putin wants to make a deal. Everybody in America's power structure that has an interest in forever war with Russia is manning the barricades now to stop that conversation at all costs. In a way, Trump is like Gorbachev in the USSR when he went to talk with Reagan at Reykjavic: he has more to worry about from his own party than from the other side. The best way to get there, frankly, is for Trump to use some blunt force in American politics: recognize that HE, PERSONALLY commands the Army, the Intelligence Services, the Justice Department, the CIA and the NSA, and USE THAT POWER to swiftly end the torment he's been put through. Call in Sessions and command Sessions to command Rosenstein to command Mueller to refocus his problem on Hillary Clinton and her collusion with the Russians in the Uranium deal, and her information turnover to the Russians through her server. If Mueller does it, great. WHEN he doesn't, WHEN he resists, command Rosenstein to fire Mueller. If Rosenstein won't, then Sessions fires Rosenstein and fires Mueller directly. If Sessions won't, then fire Sessions and put an Attorney General in there, Interim Appointment, who will. Rudi Giuliani or Chris Christi are both former prosecutors. They would take the job, and they would carry out the orders of their boss. There would be a shitstorm in American politics. So what? The Democrats are in the minority. They cannot, in fact, pass any legislation or do anything at all, not unless a significant number of Republicans cooperate. We know who those men are, so do what Clinton, the Bushes and Obama all did: pull out the dossiers on THOSE men and make it clear that if they do not get in line with the policy, they will be prosecuted. Graham and McCain are not pure. Play the same corrupt, threatening hardball that the bad guys play. Trump's a bad guy anyway, so don't hold back. The Clintons and the Bushes both killed Americans who got in their way. Trump doesn't have to. Prosecution is good enough. But I'm pretty sure that Bolton and Scaramucci, Giuliani and Christi, and many other fanatics on Trumps side, would be willing to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING that Clinton's consiglieris, and the Bush Corleones, and the Obamanites were willing to do for their leader. Trump has the power right now to crush the investigations against him and to silence, one way or the other, every one of those who attack him on his own side, and to put both the Clintons and Obama in prison if they don't play along. And in doing so, he has the power to elevate men who will be just as effective at policing the barricades as Clinton's, the Bushes', and Obama's men were. Then go to Moscow and hammer out a deal for the peace of the world. In Europe, the US gets out of the Ukraine, recognizes the Crimea as Russia (because it is, really, and the people there want it to be). We stop with the forwards basing in Eastern Europe and ease our forces in Europe way, way back, even as the Russians redeploy back from their Western border. That's all we really need to do. Get out of Russia's face and yard with military force, and there's really no ECONOMIC conflict between the two.
I would like to see Putin and Trump meet for a weekend. Once Trump figures out that Putin has been getting the same fake news treatment Trump already knows so well and that he's reasonable and easy to get along with, lots of good cooperation and deals can be made. But yes, Trump is neck deep in the deep state swamp, and Trump apparently hasn't figured that out yet and he's been prez for over a year already. And Bolton? The same idiot who supported -- and still supports-- the Iraq invasion? That's long enough. Trump does need to wake up on that and take some dramatic action.
Not yet, Russia and countries hiding behind Russian nuclear umbrella like China and Iran still are not conquered. If USA (neocons) manages to turn Russia into another Yugoslavia, then in the centralized world, the Hegelian dialectics will move the struggle for power into the center, like in ancient Rome. The Republic will die. Unless the nuclear Armageddon will open ways for the Antichrist.
He's a pro-war attack dog. Perfect for scaring the shit out of the NORKs that the US really WILL invade North Korea and kill Kim (because we may in fact do precisely that), so that when Trump sits down with Kim, Kim realizes that he is literally playing with his life, and perhaps will make a deal that saves his life by ending the Korean War. And that will be an epoch-making (and re-election assuring) victory for Trump.
It's why Israel is invincible. Samson Option. The neoliberal/neocon Delilah cut the magic hair of Russian Samson during Yeltsin rule. But out of self-confidence neglected to do regular haircut. Now the Samson gained back his power and holds fast to the column. Putin said recently, "the nuclear exchange would be a great humanitarian catastrophe that we do not want, but why would we the Russians want the world without Russia?"
To be fair it was Soviet Jews that King Franklin let into the country and put into sensitive positions that stole those plans and gave them to their Soviet masters. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Absolutely! They have a national inferiority complex,and that drives them to do things that isn't even in their own best interests. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Absolutely! They have a national inferiority complex,and that drives them to do things that isn't even in their own best interests. Sorry, I was talking about Russia. Not the USA. :^)
So was I. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
#2. To: Pinguinite (#1)
#3. To: paraclete (#2)
why are you trying to avoid blaming a Russian?
Do people in the UK have access to weapons grade nerve agents?
The nerve agent has been identified as something developed by the Russians, sort of a smoking gun
#4. To: paraclete, Vicomte13, Tooconservative, sneakypete, Pinguinite (#2)
To: Pinguinite: why are you trying to avoid blaming a Russian?
Do people in the UK have access to weapons grade nerve agents?
The nerve agent has been identified as something developed by the Russians, sort of a smoking gun
#5. To: A Pole (#4)
Seems that Putin starts to look more and more like Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi.
#6. To: sneakypete (#5)
Unless and until he becomes an actual threat to America,it's none of our business and not for us to say one way or another. That's up to the Russian people.
If/when he becomes a serious threat to America,he should be squashed like the KGB slug he is.
#7. To: A Pole (#6)
Since Russia got nukes, she was always a serious threat. Perhaps she needs to be deprived of those sinister weapons and squashed for good, like Iraq and Libya?
#8. To: Vicomte13 (#7)
Similarly, it would be great for the Russians if they could take our our nukes, because then THEY could rule the world and make no mistake about it: they would, just as we would (and largely HAVE, since World War II).
#9. To: Pinguinite (#8)
So.... given the current playing field and offenses, it's the USA that needs to be penalized, not the Russians.
#10. To: Vicomte13 (#9)
#11. To: Vicomte13 (#9)
Right now, yes the USA is ruling the world.
#12. To: Pinguinite (#10)
And Bolton? The same idiot who supported -- and still supports-- the Iraq invasion?
#13. To: Vicomte13 (#7)
It's why the NORKs want nukes.
#14. To: Vicomte13 (#7)
The Soviets knew that too, which is why they stole the plans for nukes from us and made a lot of them.
#15. To: Pinguinite (#8)
They will strive for power again,
#16. To: sneakypete (#15)
#17. To: Pinguinite (#16)
Sorry, I was talking about Russia. Not the USA. :^)
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