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Title: What the heck happened to Germany’s military?
Source:
HotAir
URL Source: https://hotair.com/archives/2018/02 ... ck-happened-germanys-military/
Published: Feb 27, 2018
Author: Jazz Shaw
Post Date: 2018-02-27 18:24:25 by Tooconservative
Keywords: None
Views: 11022
Comments: 114
One of the more controversial platform items in Donald Trump’s foreign policy stance on the campaign trail had been an insistence that our Europen allies start investing more in their own military forces and carrying a bit more of the defense load. One country in particular was called out on this and that was Germany. Many in the media scoffed at the idea and even termed it insulting to our German allies. But how real was the need for improvement? Recently it’s been revealed that Germany’s military isn’t just behind the curve on investment and improvements. It’s practically dysfunctional. German Newspaper Die Welt reported on the dismal state of the Bundeswehr (the unified armed forces of Germany and their civil administration) last week and the numbers are staggering. (Translated from German – may be imprecise.) In the Panzerhaubitze 2000 it is already close again: In the inventory of the Bundeswehr, there is this artillery gun 121 times. But only 75 are available, 42 operational (56 percent). Even more dramatic looks at the army aviators. The total stock of the NH90 transport helicopter is 58. In 2017, 37 of these were available on average, while only 13 were available (35 percent). Four of them are in action in Mali – which incidentally means that hardly any staff is available for training at home. Failure to withdraw the NH90 from Mali in the middle of the year will stall the ability for years to come. So the Germans have 95 operable tanks at any given time and less than 200 working Armored Personnel Carriers. Their Air Force is in serious trouble. They have roughly forty operable fighter jets, a good portion of which are already committed to operations around Turkey and Syria. And then there’s the Navy. Shall we talk about the German submarine force? It’s going to be a short discussion. Coming into this winter they had one (!) operable submarine. Sadly, that one grounded on the rocks a few months ago so their total fleet of subs currently stands at… zero. How did things get to this point? A recent interview with the German Defense Minister included some choice quotes. One of them was the explanation that Germany hasn’t paid as much attention to the military because “we are surrounded by friends.” The alternate and somewhat more dismal explanation is, “because we just don’t care.” Germany’s Parliamentary Armed Forces Commissioner, Hans-Peter Bartels, gave a blistering interview to DW this month, citing numerous shortcomings, and they go beyond a lack of heavy machinery. He said that the Army lacked sufficient protective vests, winter clothing and tents to be able to take part in a major NATO training mission. The soldiers are “under stress” and lacking discipline or leadership in too many cases because the German Army has 21,000 vacant officer posts. So will that be changing? Hey… Germany has politics just like we do. Spending two percent of their GDP on the military is a big ask and will require a lot of votes. Don’t hold your breath. And in the meantime, if something serious flares up in that region you may be waiting a while for the German cavalry to arrive. Poster Comment: All of the NATO forces have declined severely. Britain and Germany were two key allies who greatly shrunk their military. And America under 0bama neglected the military badly in fundamental ways. The military was hollowed out. Trump was right to lower the boom on Germany's Merkel. Despite her backtalk, she's left the German military in a shambles. America really has no western European allies to speak of. Thus, the total stock of Leopard 2 main battle tanks is 244th In 2017, an average of 176 were available, the remainder was in the repair or was stored in depots. Of these 176 tanks, 105 were actually ready for use, which makes a quota of on average 60 percent – and yet nothing is said about the extent to which maintenance and spare parts supply are actually sustainable…
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#44. To: sneakypete (#37)
You certainly can explain this to them. Because you visited them on vacation.
That's not the West. In that case I guess they don't count,huh? BTW,they are to the west of people to their east. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
You certainly can explain this to them. Because you visited them on vacation. I sure can. I would tell them that is one example of how free people can dress if they want because there is no commissar insisting they put on a uniform. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Oh yes! Please go there again, and tell them [brainwashed Finns,the Ukrainians,the Balts, and the Poles]. They are still convinced that Havaiian shirt and colorful loose short pants ARE the uniform.
They didn't count enough to us for America to get involved in a war for their defense. Nor did England, France, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Greece, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Greece or any of the other places that Germany invaded from 1938-1942. Nor did they count after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese attacked us on December 7, 1941. We declared war on Japan on December 8, the next day. We didn't declare war on Germany even after Pearl Harbor. Hitler declared war on us, three days later, and commenced torpedoing our ships up and down the coast. THEN we came into the European war - once we were dragged into it by the Germans. So you are correct - all of those people don't count - to Americans. Even after Pearl Harbor Europe didn't count enough for us to declare war on the Third Reich. We were dragged into that war by the Germans. If they never declared war on us, we would have crushed Japan in a couple of years and left Europe to its fate. You can't have it both ways (though you can try). Being sanctimonious about the invasion of nations in the East by Russia, as though THAT deserves a maximal American effort to stop, when America did not of its own volition do anything to stop Germany overrunning the ENTIRETY of Europe. We NEVER decided to go help Europe. The Germans dragged us into the war and we had to fight. We were not the good guys riding to the aid of the beleaguered West and East. We were the last guy on the block who hadn't been beaten up by the Nazis, they attacked us, and we won. It's good for everybody that we did, but we most certainly did not do it to protect the rights of ANY of the countries in Europe that were overrun and attacked. We only did it because Hitler declared war and the Germans started torpedoing our ships right off our coast. We stopped that and crushed Germany, and in the process of crushing Germany we ended up liberating part of Europe. We didn't go over there because the Germans attacked their neighbors, though. So your initial proposition is correct: nobody in Europe counted to us. It was not our affair. It SHOULD have been our affair, when Germany overran Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and France, and then firebombed London. That SHOULD have been the signal for us to get off our asses like the Canadians did. But it wasn't. We didn't care about East OR West. They didn't count to us. We entered the European war only because we ourselves were attacked. Why, then, suddenly care about the Baltic States? Because we WANT a war with Russia, for some reason? Why Russia and not Nazi Germany? Doesn't make sense. Or rather, it DOES make sense: having won an empire and become hegemon of half the world, some -such as Patton - wanted to extend our conquests and conquer the whole thing. But to declare war on Russia in 1946 and attack? We would have been no better than Hitler, and we would have had no better luck either, unless we used atomic bombs. On what pretext could we have done that? That Russia was in occupation of the Baltic States? Seriously? We could justify incineration of millions of civilians in Russia because of a sudden burst of self- righteousness over some Eastern European territories that HAD BEEN Russian for hundreds of years, and had only enjoyed a shaky independence for 20 years, between the world wars. THAT would be justification for an American-perpetrated genocide? No. It would have merely been a pretext. And Americans wanted nothing of it. Patton did, but the nation did not.
I know one thing. I do not want the revival of German army! I do not want any f***ing German troops around !!! To fight on Eastern Front again they would have to go through Poland again. And if you are so clever, Pete, go preach your doctrine to the Latvians, Western Ukrainians, Croats and Bosnian Muslims. They will love it. I am not sure about Romanians and Hungarians. And please stay away from Greeks and Serbs, for your own good, buddy.
Oh yes! Please go there again, and tell them [brainwashed Finns,the Ukrainians,the Balts, and the Poles]. They are still convinced that Havaiian shirt and colorful loose short pants ARE the uniform. Calling you an idiot is bragging on you,comrade. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
They obviously don't count with you,either. You can't have it both ways (though you can try). Being sanctimonious about the invasion of nations in the East by Russia, as though THAT deserves a maximal American effort to stop,.... Remind me where I EVER claimed European invasions of each other was any of America's business. Seems to ME that EUROPEANS should have gotten on their high horses and banded together to join forces to stop Germany first,and then Russia. OOOOPS! That's right,the pussy Frogs have union rules against their soldiers fighting outside of France! My bad. Sorry. It SHOULD have been our affair, when Germany overran Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and France, and then firebombed London. That SHOULD have been the signal for us to get off our asses like the Canadians did. True dat. IF the Fabalous Fiery French had gotten off their asses and made ANY effort at all to do anything buy cower behind their Maginot Line to stop the Germans,MAYBE the US could have justified HELPING the Europeans defend themselves against the Nazi's,instead of having to step in at the last moment to save their worthless asses for them? We entered the European war only because we ourselves were attacked. "We",WHO Frenchman? In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Why fight them,comrade? You know the Poles can't take care of themselves,and need a strong dictator like Stalin to do their thinking for them. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I served in the US military just like you did, comrade. "We" means us Americans. World War II is a long time ago, and the Cold War turned out quite well, so there isn't a whole lot of point getting riled over things that happened so long ago. I'm just not gonna get cranky about World War II. It turned out as well for us as it did probably BECAUSE we stayed out of it until the rest of the combatants had broken themselves economically and bled themselves badly. We came into the fight a giant on a battlefield of broken toys. That worked to our benefit. No, the French military unions don't vote on whether or not to go to war. As here, the French President decides whether to deploy forces or not, and if he sends them, they go. As here, if the public doesn't agree, they can remove the President or weaken his party at the ballot box in the next election.
That is YOUR opinion,not mine. I think it is the height of foolishness to ignore the lessons of the past. The times might change,but human nature remains the same. It turned out as well for us as it did probably BECAUSE we stayed out of it until the rest of the combatants had broken themselves economically and bled themselves badly. It mostly turned out well for us because we were out of range of attacks by the Japanese and the Germans,and none of our factories were bombed to rubble. We also made a BUNDLE selling war supplies to Europe both during and after the war. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I have a strong feeling that you would prefer Adolf Hitler. Perhaps he is your hero,Parteigenosse?
At times, I do wonder if your hero is Joseph Stalin.
You mean Comrade Stalin's Goomba? In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
You can stop wondering. He is a good little comrade,who dreams of a return to communism for Poland. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I've never been to Poland, but I was under the impression that the vast majority got very sick of Soviets (Russians) during the cold war, and were grateful to the US for helping free themselves of them. I guess there are still some "old school" types though.
I am curious, how exactly US helped? Many Poles tend to think that they did it themselves with help from Pope and Gorbachev. Others disagree and add Reagan to the mix. What is your view, and how did you form it?
Do you prefer Third Reich?
First of off, Reagan forced Gorbachev's hand. Gorbachev wasn't that respected in Russia. He ran again and got 1% of the vote. Russia hated him. Pope John Paul was the last Pope I respected a lot. He was very against Communism. Do you agree with him? You are really making it sound like Stalin is your hero
It is getting tedious. You will not understand, but I will tell one thing. I prefer Stalin over Hitler. Half of my family was killed by Germans. In Socialist Poland the surviving part of my family went to university (for free), did useful and respectable work. We had normal life. We were not Commies. You have no clue, and if you could you would nuke the whole world in your pride and prejudice.
I don't prefer either of them. They were both evil tyrants. If you want to count murders, I think Stalin might outrank Hitler. You will not understand, but I will tell one thing. I prefer Stalin over Hitler. Half of my family was killed by Germans. In Socialist Poland the surviving part of my family went to university (for free), did useful and respectable work. We had normal life. We were not Commies. I understand that people tend to judge things by their own experiences.
And you judge by what? By Hollywood movies or by hired guns in media or by books?
It's human nature.
I guess there are still some "old school" types though. I met some Poles who were in the US Army 10th SFG at Bad Tolz in the early 60's who were TDY to Bragg for special training,and to say their hatred for communists and communism was intense was an understatement. APole was probably a member of a family that was an apparatchik. Maybe his parents were professors or minor functionaries,and because of that they had special privileges including access to special stores the typical Pole didn't have. That sort of thing makes their children grow up to believe that communism works because they see their parents and themselves getting special treatment. It never once occurs to them that is how normal people all over the world live every day. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Do you prefer Third Reich? The only difference I have ever been able to spot between the two was the Germans seemed to have a higher standard of living and as a nation were independent. The Poles were nothing but serfs to Moscow,and expendable. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
WHAT "Socialist Poland"? I never heard of such a place. I HAVE heard of COMMUNIST Poland,and apparatchiks,though. Sound like anyone you know,Comrade? In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I heard and read about such stores same way as you did. But I never saw one. And anyone with good grades was able to get to the university. For free. Perhaps your family were German Nazis who hid in America after Ruskies took them to the woodshed. This would explain the chip on your shoulder. Special training to do what? I rest my case.
The only difference I have ever been able to spot between the two was the Germans seemed to You were there? You must be over 90 now. Oh, I forgot, you saw them in the movies.
You take your "views" from what you were and are being told. By your officers, by buddies, by radio show hosts, etc. I won't argue with that.
Special training to do what? I rest my case. You have no case,but you ARE a head case. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
You have no case,but you ARE a head case. Hmm I looked it up, a lot of information is in the open. So you met "some Poles" and you see those guys as the standard of what Polish attitudes and beliefs are or should be. You have a narrow and insular perspective. From Wikipedia: "10th Group began training with unconventional warfare groups from friendly countries in the 1960s, beginning with NATO allies. The group has also trained various components of the militaries of several Middle Eastern countries, including Lebanon, Jordan, Yemen, Iran, as well as Kurdish tribesmen." "It was originally planned that half of the members of the Special Forces would be native Europeans. Many of the initial members of the 10th SFG(A) were Lodge Act recruits, who were strenuously anti-Communist." From http://www.allgerman.com/landkries-BadTolz-Wolfratshausen.htm Bad Tölz is a town in Bavaria, Germany, and administrative center of the district of Bad Tölz-Wolfratshausen. Bad Tölz sits on the Isar River, 670 metres above sea level. It occupies 30.8 square kilometres. In 1937 a SS-Junkerschule (SS Officer Candidate School) was established at Bad Tölz which operated until the end of World War II in 1945. As well, a subcamp of the Dachau concentration camp was located in the town. It provided labour for the SS-Junkerschule and the Zentralbauleitung (Central Administration Building). The former SS-Junkerschule was the base of the U.S. Army's 1st Battalion, 10th Special Forces Group until 1991. https://jeffersonal.issuu.com/madelena2/docs/ganser...s.../71 "General McClure established a Psychological Warfare Centre in Fort Bragg and in the summer of 1952 the first Special Forces unit, somewhat misleadingly called the 10th Special Forces Group, started its training under Colonel Aaron Bank. The 10th Special Forces Group was organised according to the OSS experience during the Second World War, and directly inherited the latter's mission to carry out, like the British SAS, sabotage missions and to recruit, equip and train guerrillas" "After the Gladio scandal broke in 1990 it was revealed that Gladiators had been trained at the camp of the 10th Special Forces Group at Bad Tolz in Germany and that European Gladiators from numerous countries had received special training from the US Green Berets, allegedly also in Fort Bragg in the USA." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio "Swiss historian Daniele Ganser in his 2005 book, NATO's Secret Armies: Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe, accused Gladio of trying to influence policies through the means of "false flag" operations and a "strategy of tension". Ganser alleges that on various occasions, stay-behind movements became linked to right-wing terrorism, crime and attempted coups d'état. In NATO's Secret Armies Ganser states that Gladio units closely cooperated with NATO and the CIA and that Gladio in Italy was responsible for terrorist attacks against its own civilian population." "In the Archer episode "Lo Scandalo", the character Malory Archer mentions having been involved in Operation Gladio when younger. It is described by Lana Kane as "a crypto-fascist shitshow, starring Allen Dulles and a bunch of former Nazis." https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Army_Special_Forces.html "Since their establishment in 1952, Special Forces soldiers have operated in Vietnam, El Salvador, Panama, Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, the Philippines, and, in an FID role, Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa, which was transferred to Africa Command in 2008. Special Forces were formed in 1952, initially under the U.S. Army Psychological Warfare Division headed by then Brigadier General Robert A. McClure. Special Operations Command was formed by the U.S. Army Psychological Warfare Center which was activated in May 1952. The initial 10th Special Forces Group was formed in June 1952, and was commanded by Colonel Aaron Bank. The first Executive Officer was LTC William C. Martin, Jr. The 10th SFG's formation coincided with the establishment of the Psychological Warfare School, which is now known as the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School."
If "Socialist Poland" was such a paradise, what was that whole Solidarity thing about?
Why are you trying to tell me about Special Forces? I was a career SF NCO. My only comment on what you wrote about some of the 10ths operations is that they were written by leftwing shitheads with an agenda. You will never read about the operations from the people that conducted them because they were classified operations. Which means anyone can make any sort of wild claims they want to make,and nobody can refute them without violating their oath. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Maybe you are right. I can't figure out where this is guy is coming from. He loves Pope John Paul (who detested Communism) but yet loves Communism.
You can't see the similarities between Catholicism and Communism? Seriously? Why do you think so many Priests are Communists that support and work with so many "Liberation Fronts"? If you can't see it it's just because you don't want to see it. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I am not Catholic and mostly have no use for it except that they believe in Christ. However, it has always been clear that Pope John was deeply anti-Communist and did help in the cold war effort.
I don't question your expertise, I just Googled what you said and shared what I found.
Here you go again. Commies under every bed?
My apologies. I shouldn't have done that. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Not in MY house. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Who financed / instigated the German Military Industrial complex? https://www.youtube.com/results? search_query=Bush+Hitlers+Banker
Comments (85 - 114) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestHave you tried to explain that to the Finns,the Ukrainians,the Balts, and the Poles?
#45. To: Vicomte13 (#40)
Have you tried to explain that to the Finns,the Ukrainians,the Balts, and the Poles?
#46. To: A Pole (#44)
Have you tried to explain that to the Finns,the Ukrainians,the Balts, and the Poles?
#47. To: sneakypete (#46)
I would tell them that is one example of how free people can dress if they want because there is no commissar insisting they put on a uniform.
#48. To: sneakypete (#45)
(Edited)
In that case I guess they don't count,huh?
#49. To: Vicomte13, sneakypete (#48)
Being sanctimonious about the invasion of nations in the East by Russia, as though THAT deserves a maximal American effort to stop, when America did not of its own volition do anything to stop Germany overrunning the ENTIRETY of Europe. We NEVER decided to go help Europe. The Germans dragged us into the war and we had to fight.
#50. To: A Pole (#47)
I would tell them that is one example of how free people can dress if they want because there is no commissar insisting they put on a uniform.
#51. To: Vicomte13 (#48)
So you are correct - all of those people don't count - to Americans.
#52. To: A Pole (#49)
I know one thing. I do not want the revival of German army! I do not want any f***ing German troops around !!! To fight on Eastern Front again they would have to go through Poland again.
#53. To: sneakypete (#51)
"We",WHO Frenchman?
#54. To: Vicomte13 (#53)
World War II is a long time ago, and the Cold War turned out quite well, so there isn't a whole lot of point getting riled over things that happened so long ago.
#55. To: sneakypete (#52)
need a strong dictator like Stalin to do their thinking for them.
#56. To: A Pole (#55)
I have a strong feeling that you would prefer Adolf Hitler.
#57. To: A Pole (#55)
I have a strong feeling that you would prefer Adolf Hitler.
#58. To: no gnu taxes (#56)
At times, I do wonder if your hero is Joseph Stalin.
#59. To: sneakypete (#58)
#60. To: no gnu taxes (#59)
I've never been to Poland, but I was under the impression that the vast majority got very sick of Soviets (Russians) during the cold war, and were grateful to the US for helping free themselves of them.
#61. To: sneakypete (#58)
return to communism for Poland.
#62. To: A Pole (#60)
#63. To: no gnu taxes (#62)
You are really making it sound like Stalin is your hero
#64. To: A Pole (#63)
I prefer Stalin over Hitler
#65. To: no gnu taxes (#64)
I understand that people tend to judge things by their own experiences.
#66. To: A Pole (#65)
I understand that people tend to judge things by their own experiences.
#67. To: no gnu taxes (#59)
I've never been to Poland, but I was under the impression that the vast majority got very sick of Soviets (Russians) during the cold war, and were grateful to the US for helping free themselves of them.
#68. To: A Pole (#61)
return to communism for Poland.
#69. To: A Pole (#63)
In Socialist Poland the surviving part of my family went to university (for free), did useful and respectable work. We had normal life. We were not Commies.
#70. To: sneakypete (#67)
(Edited)
Maybe his parents were professors or minor functionaries,and because of that they had special privileges including access to special stores the typical Pole didn't have. That sort of thing makes their children grow up to believe that communism works because they see their parents and themselves getting special treatment.
APole was probably a member of a family that was an apparatchik.
I met some Poles who were in the US Army 10th SFG at Bad Tolz in the early 60's who were TDY to Bragg for special training,and to say their hatred for communists and communism was intense was an understatement.
#71. To: sneakypete (#68)
(Edited)
Do you prefer Third Reich?
#72. To: sneakypete (#69)
(Edited)
WHAT "Socialist Poland"? I never heard of such a place.
#73. To: A Pole (#70)
I met some Poles who were in the US Army 10th SFG at Bad Tolz in the early 60's who were TDY to Bragg for special training,and to say their hatred for communists and communism was intense was an understatement.
#74. To: sneakypete, Vicomte13, Tooconservative, Deckard (#73)
I met some Poles who were in the US Army 10th SFG at Bad Tolz in the early 60's who were TDY to Bragg for special training,and to say their hatred for communists and communism was intense was an understatement.
#75. To: A Pole (#63)
#76. To: A Pole (#74)
#77. To: sneakypete (#67)
APole was probably a member of a family that was an apparatchik. Maybe his parents were professors or minor functionaries,and because of that they had special privileges including access to special stores the typical Pole didn't have. That sort of thing makes their children grow up to believe that communism works because they see their parents and themselves getting special treatment. It never once occurs to them that is how normal people all over the world live every day.
#78. To: no gnu taxes (#77)
He loves Pope John Paul (who detested Communism) but yet loves Communism.
#79. To: sneakypete (#78)
#80. To: sneakypete (#76)
Why are you trying to tell me about Special Forces? I was a career SF NCO.
#81. To: sneakypete (#78)
You can't see the similarities between Catholicism and Communism?
#82. To: A Pole (#80)
I don't question your expertise, I just Googled what you said and shared what I found.
#83. To: A Pole (#81)
Here you go again. Commies under every bed?
#84. To: A Pole, Tooconservative, no gnu taxes, sneakypete, Deckard (#29)
Germans had great military in WWII.
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