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Title: Christian Peace
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Published: Feb 13, 2018
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2018-02-13 19:05:02 by Vicomte13
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Views: 12559
Comments: 101
It's been a rough couple of days around here. Several of us, myself included, have not behaved in a manner at all befitting of a follower of Jesus. I propose that we cut that off and come back together in peace. We worship the same God and follow the same Lord. And he admonished us to love each other. Having gone in the other direction and riled ourselves up with hatred, what do we have to show for it? Nothing good. So lets cut our losses and get back in line with our leader, who is in heaven. For my part, I am sorry for all of the harsh words. I was hurt and angry, and lashing out, trying to inflict hurt and spread around the hate. We all know this is bad. I'm sorry I did it, and I will work much harder to keep my hot blood in check in the future. If I hurt any of you, I'm sorry. VxH, let's make peace. Too Conservative, I'm sorry I swore at you. A K A Stone - it's your site, and I spread crap all over the place out of wrath. I am sorry, and I will try to not do that ever again. Our interpretations of Christianity are different, but do we disagree that we are not supposed to carry on like this? Surely we all do. So let's all repent of it, change a different direction, turn the other cheek, forgive and forget, and move on in a more positive direction. That's what I will try to do.
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#53. To: redleghunter (#42)
It's true in other churches too. The converts are often the most knowledgable and serious. I was kind of shocked when I found out just how many people think that sitting in a pew half-awake for an hour each week was all that was needed to punch their tickets for the Pearly Gates. They not only had no interest in theology or what the denomination stood for, they actively resisted any attempt of any kind to examine the distinctive beliefs of their church or any other. They worked at being uninformed and ignorant. They weren't terribly virtuous or sinful in any way, just totally uninterested. And I'm not exaggerating. Believe me, I could tell a few stories that would shock you.
No, they aren't. Rome is all about obeying the infallible doctrines promulgated by the pope and the rare church councils like Council of Trent or Vatican II. To Catholics, the bible is a mere creation of the Catholic church. There are no bible-believing Catholics. There are only pope-obeying Catholics. Period. If the pope infallibly promulgated a doctrine that the bible was harmful and that all Catholics must get rid of their bibles, they would have no choice. They would obey or they would no longer be considered Catholic and have no access to Catholic sacraments. And those sacraments have a powerful hold on them.
Not my judgment to make. I was just pointing out Catholic doctrine on the matter and linked you to why they say so. The source and summit of the Roman Catholic faith is communion. No communion and God's Grace is cut off according to the catechism. That is why they consider it a mortal sin. Now if you asked me 8 years ago if missing church is a sin, I would probably say no. But now? Why would I want to miss church on Sunday and small group Bible Study? It took a really bad sickness recently due to chemo treatments for me to miss fellowship with fellow Christians. I can't wait for the next church event and look forward to Sundays. I am a member of an Evangelical church which is very active and very young in age range. It's a pleasure to see so many young couples with 4-5 kids all running around. At 50 I'm an old guy there.
Yeah, on paper. But when did they last enforce it on anyone? When did they refuse communion for that, refuse a burial because of it, refuse deathbed rites from a priest? They don't. Not that I know of. So it's required but mostly toothless.
There is something refreshing and cheerful about the man and he is still very appealing, even so long after he lived. He had a knack for preaching and oratory and wasn't afraid to be passionate in the pulpit. He was, in private life, quite lively and there are many humorous anecdotes about him. He was as witty as Churchill or Oscar Wilde when he was in the mood for it.
When I started attending another church in July, the pastor mentioned the above to me. He does not like the term church membership and prefers partnership. Which means being a partner is you do more than pew fill. Very vibrant ministries within and without the church. Such only works if you have motivated members wanting to serve the Lord and others. I was amazed at how active this church truly is and sound doctrine for oldies like me. :-) The senior pastor is a grad of a Presbyterian university and the assistant pastor is from a Reformed Baptist university. The elders are a mixed bag of both. We even have an elder who was an Army Presbyterian Chaplain. Then of course we have the Greenbay Packers family which shows up late to service wearing their football jerseys. :-) No church is perfect.
Again you can say stuff like that but since it isn't based on scripture as far as I can tell. "Full of grace" is definitely in the Bible. The angels words are the beginning of the "Hail Mary" prayer that we Christians say. 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Well...I kinda hate to break it to you but... The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory".[5] This doctrine was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius XII on 1 November 1950, in the apostolic constitution Munificentissimus Deus by exercising papal infallibility.[6] While the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church believe in the Dormition of the Theotokos, which is the same as the Assumption,[7] whether Mary had a physical death has not been dogmatically defined. In Munificentissimus Deus (item 39) Pope Pius XII pointed to the Book of Genesis (3:15) as scriptural support for the dogma in terms of Mary's victory over sin and death as also reflected in 1 Corinthians 15:54: "then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory".[8][9][10] In the churches that observe it, the Assumption is a major feast day, commonly celebrated on 15 August. In many countries, the feast is also marked as a Holy Day of Obligation in the Roman Catholic Church and as a festival (under various names) in the Anglican Communion. So Mary never did die but Catholics didn't find out about it until the pope informed them in 1950 that she just kinda floated off into the air. And, having informed them that she didn't die after all, they were further required to believe that she didn't die or they were no longer considered Catholic. Apparently, the Eastern Orthodox believe in the Dormition which is the same thing except Mary fell asleep (died), was bodily resurrected (like Jesus), then ascended into heaven by God's power. Jesus, by comparison, ascended into heaven under His own power. I do hope you won't resort to some sort of low sarcasm. That would be so disappointing.
I wish I knew of a church around here that was anything like that.
Let's not go too far. The majority of Catholics who are motivated to read the Bible (Cardinal Newman highly encouraged Bible studies for the laity but with a priest leading and Vat2 encouraged as well). However, as a former RC the Bible is to be studied with holy tradition as the guide. My personal experience growing up in a strict Irish Catholic family may have been rare. My mother grew up in Ireland and loved church in her small town. She would hear weekly the liturgy readings from Scriptures and wanted more. She asked one is the Sisters at Catholic school for a Bible. She was quite scolded that only the priest kept the Bible. When she came back to the US after the seas were clear of Uboats, she a few years later married my dad and as a wedding gift received her first Bible. She would read to us from that Catholic Bible every night along with our prayers. I quickly loved the stories the wonderful artwork in the Bible and drank in those evenings and even more reading during Advent, Lent and Holy Week. Of course I aced all my religious studies and catechism classes. My Aunt on my dad's side was a Bible thumping Catholic too. She and my uncle were Charismatic Catholics. She gave me my very first Bible at age 10 and such is the history of this Bible thumper. :-)
They don't. Not that I know of. So it's required but mostly toothless. The confessional is their answer. I don't know if it was the parish priest's rule but I remember going to confession before every holy day of obligation was not optional. I remember as a 10 year old trying to come up with stuff to confess. I was always arguing with my siblings so that was an easy one. Again it depends on the motivation and devotion. With my mother we never missed a Sunday even on vacation and only missed if we were running a high fever. I don't think I witnessed my mother miss church at all in my time under my parents roof. And my dad was an usher and Knights of Columbus and was always doing something with the Church to include run BINGO nights. We were more strict than the Reagan family on Blue Bloods. :-) Even when in Florida retired they were even more active. When both of them were homebound in their 80s they found ways to get to church and if not due to their waning months of life a priest or Eucharistic minister came by the house or assisted living facility. I remember visiting my dad before he passed. He gave me a mission to find his priest and get him to come to his nursing home. I had to track down the dude and bring him there. I was successful. When he got there my father asked him a few questions about the book of Romans. Mind you his mind was not all there, but here I was answering his questions and the priest was listening. FYI my parents got involved with an Evangelical Bible study when they moved to their retirement community. They both accepted Christ as Lord and Savior a few years before they passed. They stayed with the Catholic church as that is all they knew.
Until a century ago, lay Catholics were very strongly discouraged from reading the bible at all, even the bible translations slanted toward Catholic doctrine. Even a few decades back, I recall a Catholic telling me they weren't allowed to read a non-Catholic bible without permission from the local priest and they would have to answer to why they would even want to read such a thing. There may be bible-believing Catholics now but that was not the tradition of the Catholic churches, either in Europe or America. I did know one of those Catholic charismatic women once. Never missed Mass on Saturday night so she could get up early and spend Sunday at the local Assembly of God. Your aunt was probably about the same. At one time, AoG seemed to be about 20%-30% Catholics from what I could tell. And these local Catholics were quite conservative.
I think we discussed this before but did you read his Downgrade letters? Very instructive for today. He was cheerful but a lion against the error of the liberal theology coming out of Germany and infecting the Arminian churches in England. I posted an intro and link here:
Woh. I never realized you were from such a devout Roman Catholic family. Urban Catholic life, especially on the east coast, was obviously quite different from the kind of Catholicism you would find in rural America in places that I knew. Only in the largest towns could anyone go to Mass every day. In places like NYC, many older people would expect daily Mass as a matter of course. The sacraments gain a powerful hold in that way.
And the Eastern Orthodox don't hold either the Immaculate conception or the Assumption as ancient church teachings. Nor do they believe in the torments of purgatory. I have some interesting links on that if interested.
We had extensive discussion of it back when I was at FR. A sad chapter in his life. He had lived through a period of great evangelism and great popularity but as he became old, he found himself being forced to defend what he considered to be settled dogma within his own denomination, the English Baptists. Kind of a sad end to the career of the greatest English preacher. Another career like that was the Presbyterian John Gresham Machen. He withdrew and formed the Orthodox Presbyterian church. Still, a sad ending. These are examples of why I say that the most important thing that determines what a church will stand for in 50 or 100 years is their knowledge of and adherence to doctrine. Sometimes, people just get tired of correct doctrine, their itchy ears lead them away toward other things.
Now that I didn't know. Or at least I don't recall it. I was being, of course, a little tongue-in-cheek with my summary of the Assumption. Rome did not actually promulgate doctrine that Mary never died. Maybe she died, maybe she didn't. But she did get beamed up to heaven, either alive or dead. Or maybe she died, got resurrected on earth and then got beamed up if you're Orthodox (I swear, you cannot say the word Theotokos around those people, they go nuts). Anyway, Stone probably is in shock now over the Mariology of the Roman church. Sometimes called the Mariolatry of Rome by those who take a dim view of how they deify Mary, contrary to scripture.
Urban Catholic life, especially on the east coast, was obviously quite different from the kind of Catholicism you would find in rural America in places that I knew. Only in the largest towns could anyone go to Mass every day. In places like NYC, many older people would expect daily Mass as a matter of course. The sacraments gain a powerful hold in that way. I meant my mother never missed Sundays and Holy days. However she did take us to mass on Wednesdays during summer vacation from school. It was mom me my siblings (dad at work) and two pews of elderly ladies. Where I grew up in NY there were very few Protestant churches. There was a SDA church near the local parish. We would joke it was a vampire church because we never saw people coming and going and no cars in the parking lot. Then next to my friends house there was an Episcopal church. Again a ghost town. Two blocks from my friends house was a small Evangelical chapel which was in a residential area. Really weird but in the middle of a block of middle class homes off the main road was this chapel. It was packed every Sunday and Tuesday. Cars parked on three streets. One summer day my friend was invited to Vacation Bible School to that chapel. He invited me to tag along. We were 12 and that was where I heard the Gospel for the first time. The rest is history praise be to God.
Most true.
Interesting. I've heard very similar stories before. Of course, the Catholics love to have converts but it seems to be that enthusiastic converts to Catholicism is pretty rare, even if they do lavish a lot of attention on them. OTOH, Catholic converts to Prot churches are welcomed but no special effort to convert them to Protestantism is made. Yet it seems there are far more Catholics converting to Protestantism than vice versa. It's not even close in my experience. I always noticed that the ex-Catholics were all avid Bible students, just loved scripture, like they were starved for it.
It was what the Orthodox call the Pseudo Synod of Florence (CA. 1439). One of those let's get back together because these Muslims are quite annoying. You will have to go past a bit of the usual supercilious and pedantic EO introductions. But it gets really interesting half way down. Basically the Orthodox could not find any ancient teachings on purgatory and any Orthodox churches which did have some leanings look to purgatory as a toll house. Kind of like the Bema seat. At one point an RC bishop made the point that purgatory was where we go to be punished for venal sins to receive forgiveness. The EO bishop responded that one can only be punished or forgiven but not both. :-) He's right.
The Orthodox can have a very dry wit when they're making a serious point. And no one actually laughs. I always thought the EOs won every debate with the RCs. Didn't do them any good because the RCs never seemed interested in the truth. When I hear people suggesting we need more ecumenical dialog, I always think of how little good it did for the Orthodox. Rome does not dialog in good faith, only for their own advantage.
I'm not in shock. I knew they would explain it away like they do with everything.
Enjoyed your re-telling of your early impressions and belief... My north Jersey town was also largely RCC.
My father -- born in the early 1930s -- lived and grew up in Harlem, NYC. His family were Italian immigrants, poor, and living in a cold-water flat on the 4th or 5th floor. Heat was partially provided by whatever driftwood and scrap wood could be scrounged from the banks of the East River along with his dad. They'd also scrounge up wild mushrooms and greens. It was a tough existence, substinance was meager. BUT...there was little or ZERO crime. To your point of "Urban Catholic life," the local parish routinely provided many of the parishioners' needs, from clothes, to food, to any and all kinds of help. The church was THE epicenter of its local society. Many remained stout RCCs for life, working those rosaries to the bone (like Gramma.) She may have attended mass often -- including obviously Sundays -- but I NEVER hear a single word from her regarding the Bible when I was a child. (Just a random memory): From age 7-15 of routinely attending Mass on Sunday (as well as attending Catechism for 4 years), I never heard any Scripture during a sermon other than a brief verse from one of the NT Gospels. Never was any Old Testament scripture ever uttered.
Even here with a majority Prot community, I never knew anyone growing up who hadn't been born in the local Catholic hospital (unless they were one of the last ones in the era to be born at home). Those nuns were fierce but did a great job, really served the community. No one ever backtalked them at all (any kid who did would have gotten a beating). You didn't mess with the nuns in their hospital. You didn't make any jokes either. It was unthinkable. They had real authority and little patience for debate even with adults. They were a blessing to all of us. No doubt of it.
I have heard that before, more than once. I do think they do a lot better over the last 30 years. Vatican II did lead to some positive changes. Prior to that and starting around 1910, while Catholics had been officially (very mildly) encouraged to read the Bible and know it, it still wasn't all that accepted as a practice among the older pre-Vatican Catholics. They were all Mass-and-sacraments types and it couldn't be spiritually correct if it wasn't uttered in Latin with reference to the theology of Thomas of Aquinas. You know what I mean. Vatican II tried to do more to compete with the teaching of the Bible in the Prot churches, especially in wealthy Western countries that were the breadbasket of Vatican fundraising. They knew they needed to compete. The Vatican is a church but every church is still a business in some sense, as distasteful as it sounds to say it. So around the Eighties, it seems they got much more active in preaching some scripture and encouraging bible study, always within the lines naturally.
We've grown up in two different environs...and yet wound up HERE. I agree -- the nuns of yore were tough ol' broads, doing very important work. NEVER would anyone think of sassing them. You didn't mess. Even the tough guy thugs feared their wrath. Their patience and sense of humor bone seemed to be broken. Whether in your Midwest or in my urban/suburban parts...I'd always thought THAT to be a shame. They were mostly helpful but...mostly also joy-less. They obviously took their suffering seriously to the point of even emotional deprivation. I always felt sorry for the one sweet young pretty nun whose bitterness had not yet come to fruition.
Yup. IN LATIN. Especially in NYC. They knew they needed to compete. The Vatican is a church but every church is still a business in some sense, as distasteful as it sounds to say it. So around the Eighties, it seems they got much more active in preaching some scripture and encouraging bible study, always within the lines naturally. "Competition" in that sense of forcing the RCC to become...I guess, "more Protestant" in style if not also in content somewhat wound up a good thing. That said, the Mass always seemed to be more about all the little traditional rites and performance art, and little to do with teaching the word. By my end days of attending Mass they'd even brought in folk guitarists to perform the music instead of the tradition pipe organ, which definitely signaled a different direction.
Speaking of a different direction, didn't the change come along around the time that the priest stopped facing the altar to consecrate and started facing the congregation? There are still Catholics (Mel Gibson would be one), who get very hot on that topic. I think us Prots just don't get the whole dispute, anyway I don't. Gibson funded that Latin rite church just so his dad could attend a real old-fashioned pre-Vatican II Catholic mass in Latin and with the priest facing the altar.
I may have been too young or bored to notice. The olde-timers would have noticed something like that...or someone paying attention. My son attended a mass several years ago with his friends, who attended RCC. His impression was first and foremost that he was impressed by...THE SHOW. The whole rites thing is impressive if you're watching it from a performance standpoint. There are still Catholics (Mel Gibson would be one), who get very hot on that topic. I think us Prots just don't get the whole dispute, anyway I don't. Gibson funded that Latin rite church just so his dad could attend a real old-fashioned pre-Vatican II Catholic mass in Latin and with the priest facing the altar. I don't get it either; can't fathom a God who dings Salvation (and knocks off points) because of something like that. OR, forgetting to dab the finger in the Holy Water tray, a women lacking headwear, or any number of Venial Sin oversights. Well, Mel is traditional about SOME things, isn't he? So he did establish his own church? Just for his dad? Heard he's planned a follow up to 'The Passion...', which will explore the aftermath of Christ' last days before ascending afterward. Should break more theater attendance records as Hollywood continues to hate on Gibson.
Gibson's father was something else. Gibson is an outspoken critic, both of the post-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church and of those Traditionalist Catholics, like the Society of Saint Pius X, who reject Sedevacantism. Gibson is also a proponent of various conspiracy theories. In a 2003 interview he questioned how the Nazis could have disposed of six million bodies during the Holocaust and claimed that the September 11, 2001 attacks were perpetrated by remote control.[1] He has also been quoted as saying the Second Vatican Council was "a Masonic plot backed by the Jews".[2] . . . In 2006 Gibson's foundation, The World Faith Foundation of California, which is funded by Mel Gibson, purchased an existing church structure in the Pittsburgh suburb of Unity, Pennsylvania, and established there a Tridentine sedevacantist congregation called St. Michael the Archangel Roman Catholic Chapel.[38] The Reverend Leonard Bealko, purportedly a former Roman Catholic priest who had left the church voluntarily in 1986, was appointed pastor. By mid-2007 Gibson and his fellow congregants had dismissed Bealko and dissolved the congregation amid charges that Bealko had misrepresented his credentials and mishandled finances.[39] So that Sedevecantist church didn't last but, at the time, it was kind of a Thing when it became clear to libmedia that Gibson and papa were both very very conservative Catholics. Papa made other inflammatory comments too, doing his son no favors.
There are plenty of conspiracies to speak out about as we know....(naah, you wouldn't know about that) Questioning the Holocaust was the one subject the Gibsons invoked was what made them/him persona non grata to begin with in a Hollywood that's known to be very Jewish, very liberal, very Atheist, and very anti-Christian. I may not agree with the Gibsons on the Holocaust, but it was after all just an opinion. Hollywood has many opinions that at least 50% of America finds offensive. I give Mel points for trying to reach out to God while helping others develop their faith.
I wuz wrong. That Sedevecantist chapel is still in business and doing business in Latin. ST. MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL CATHOLIC CHURCH It looks like a charming little church. Nicely maintained and equipped, as these places go. I'd guess they still benefit from some Gibson money. Update: nope, that one is in Florida. Gibson's was in Pennsylvania.
Ok, I'll bite... The claim of a 911 "remote control" facet of the attack is interesting, given there is no video footage of the Pentagram "plane." Gibson may have something there. Given what we know today about who runs what, and to what extent those PTB are willing to retain/wield power, it can be said that NO explanation of 911 can truly be discounted or dismissed. Even MORE SO in light of the ongoing coup against DT that's been exposed.
Trying again, I think his dad's chapel may have closed. But Mel did build his own Latin-rite church in the hills around Malibu. This seems to be the correct picture of it. Sounds about right. Priest facing the altar, everything Latin.
Thanks. The subject just seemed to be a good place to share.
The sermon or the liturgy as well? I know by my conscious post Vat 2 upbringing, we had one OT/NT epistle reading, a reading from Psalms and then a Gospel reading.
I'm going to see it in the actual theatre this time because Hollywood hates on Gibson. :)
The sedevacantists are right, Francis is a usurper. FAKE pope!
One can only imagine what Hutton Gibson would have said about Pope Frank ascending while B16 was still alive. A Catholic cheeky enough to write a book called Is The Pope Catholic? would have had some fun opinions on that topic, no doubt. There are more of them around than is generally realized, I think. Not that I object.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI have found the RCIA Catholics know Catholicism better than cradle Catholics. Just my observation. They have to go through the conversion training which is quite rigorous and they do so as volunteers and not compelled like some are growing up.
#54. To: A K A Stone (#44)
That is why I like debating and talking to Catholics. Because your beliefs are supposed to be based on the Bible.
#55. To: hondo68 (#52)
Do you think that not going to church at least once a week is a big sin?
#56. To: redleghunter (#46)
There are minimum requirements. Not attending church at least weekly and on feast/holy days of obligation is considered by the Catholic Church as mortal sin. Unless one is too sick.
#57. To: redleghunter (#50)
Thanks for the Spurgeon.
#58. To: Tooconservative (#53)
I was kind of shocked when I found out just how many people think that sitting in a pew half-awake for an hour each week was all that was needed to punch their tickets for the Pearly Gates. They not only had no interest in theology or what the denomination stood for, they actively resisted any attempt of any kind to examine the distinctive beliefs of their church or any other.
#59. To: A K A Stone (#45)
(Edited)
Well the Blessed Virgin Mary did get some special privileges like being free from original sin, and full of grace.
Luke 1:27-29 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
#60. To: A K A Stone (#47)
(Edited)
If Mary never sinned why did she die?
The Assumption
The Assumption of Mary into Heaven, often shortened to the Assumption and also known as the Feast of Saint Mary the Virgin, Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary (the Dormition),[3][4] according to the beliefs of the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and parts of Anglicanism, was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her earthly life.
#61. To: redleghunter (#58)
I was amazed at how active this church truly is and sound doctrine for oldies like me. :-) The senior pastor is a grad of a Presbyterian university and the assistant pastor is from a Reformed Baptist university. The elders are a mixed bag of both. We even have an elder who was an Army Presbyterian Chaplain.
#62. To: Tooconservative, A K A Stone (#54)
There are no bible-believing Catholics. There are only pope-obeying Catholics. Period.
#63. To: Tooconservative (#56)
Yeah, on paper. But when did they last enforce it on anyone? When did they refuse communion for that, refuse a burial because of it, refuse deathbed rites from a priest?
#64. To: redleghunter (#62)
My personal experience growing up in a strict Irish Catholic family may have been rare. My mother grew up in Ireland and loved church in her small town. She would hear weekly the liturgy readings from Scriptures and wanted more. She asked one is the Sisters at Catholic school for a Bible. She was quite scolded that only the priest kept the Bible.
My Aunt on my dad's side was a Bible thumping Catholic too. She and my uncle were Charismatic Catholics. She gave me my very first Bible at age 10 and such is the history of this Bible thumper. :-)
#65. To: Tooconservative (#57)
There is something refreshing and cheerful about the man and he is still very appealing, even so long after he lived. He had a knack for preaching and oratory and wasn't afraid to be passionate in the pulpit. He was, in private life, quite lively and there are many humorous anecdotes about him. He was as witty as Churchill or Oscar Wilde when he was in the mood for it.
#66. To: redleghunter (#63)
Again it depends on the motivation and devotion. With my mother we never missed a Sunday even on vacation and only missed if we were running a high fever. I don't think I witnessed my mother miss church at all in my time under my parents roof. And my dad was an usher and Knights of Columbus and was always doing something with the Church to include run BINGO nights.
#67. To: Tooconservative (#60)
So Mary never did die but Catholics didn't find out about it until the pope informed them in 1950 that she just kinda floated off into the air. And, having informed them that she didn't die after all, they were further required to believe that she didn't die or they were no longer considered Catholic.
#68. To: redleghunter (#65)
I think we discussed this before but did you read his Downgrade letters?
#69. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone (#67)
Nor do they believe in the torments of purgatory.
#70. To: Tooconservative (#66)
Woh. I never realized you were from such a devout Roman Catholic family.
#71. To: Tooconservative (#68)
These are examples of why I say that the most important thing that determines what a church will stand for in 50 or 100 years is their knowledge of and adherence to doctrine. Sometimes, people just get tired of correct doctrine, their itchy ears lead them away toward other things.
#72. To: redleghunter (#70)
One summer day my friend was invited to Vacation Bible School to that chapel. He invited me to tag along. We were 12 and that was where I heard the Gospel for the first time. The rest is history praise be to God.
#73. To: Tooconservative (#69)
#74. To: redleghunter (#73)
The EO bishop responded that one can only be punished or forgiven but not both. :-)
#75. To: Tooconservative (#69)
#76. To: redleghunter (#70)
#77. To: Tooconservative, redleghunter (#66)
Urban Catholic life, especially on the east coast, was obviously quite different from the kind of Catholicism you would find in rural America in places that I knew. Only in the largest towns could anyone go to Mass every day. In places like NYC, many older people would expect daily Mass as a matter of course.
#78. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#77)
To your point of "Urban Catholic life," the local parish routinely provided many of the parishioners' needs, from clothes, to food, to any and all kinds of help. The church was THE epicenter of its local society.
#79. To: Liberator (#77)
From age 7-15 of routinely attending Mass on Sunday (as well as attending Catechism for 4 years), I never heard any Scripture during a sermon other than a brief verse from one of the NT Gospels. Never was any Old Testament scripture ever uttered.
#80. To: Tooconservative (#78)
(Edited)
#81. To: Tooconservative (#79)
They were all Mass-and-sacraments types and it couldn't be spiritually correct if it wasn't uttered in Latin with reference to the theology of Thomas of Aquinas. You know what I mean.
#82. To: Liberator (#81)
By my end days of attending Mass they'd even brought in folk guitarists to perform the music instead of the tradition pipe organ, which definitely signaled a different direction.
#83. To: Tooconservative (#82)
Speaking of a different direction, didn't the change come along around the time that the priest stopped facing the altar to consecrate and started facing the congregation?
#84. To: Liberator (#83)
(Edited)
11 kids? Yeah, pretty Catholic. Conquering the world, one supine event at a time. Hutton Peter Gibson (born August 26, 1918) is an American writer on Sedevacantism, a World War II veteran, the 1968 Jeopardy! grand champion and the father of 11 children, one of whom is the actor and director Mel Gibson.
#85. To: Tooconservative (#84)
#86. To: Liberator (#83)
(Edited)
#87. To: Tooconservative, Deckard (#84)
#88. To: Liberator (#85)
(Edited)
So in 2003 the actor decided to help change things back to the way they were, building a chapel in Malibu, Calif. – The Church of the Holy Family. Tucked away in the tree-covered mountains of Agoura Hills, 30 miles northwest of downtown Los Angeles, the rustic church, unaffiliated with the Roman Catholic archdiocese, has a foot-tall crucifix on the altar and the priest keeps his back to the parishioners as he performs mass every morning entirely in Latin. In church, women must wear head coverings.
Among traditionalists, there is a more extreme group affiliated with the ultra-conservative stream of Catholicism known as Sedevacantism, meaning, “the seat [of the papacy] is empty.” They believe there has been no legitimate pope since 1958. Gibson hasn’t said he shares that belief, though his father, Hutton Gibson, is a well known anti-Vatican II activist and author of the book Is the Pope Catholic?
#89. To: Liberator (#76)
Enjoyed your re-telling of your early impressions and belief... My north Jersey town was also largely RCC.
#90. To: Liberator (#77)
From age 7-15 of routinely attending Mass on Sunday (as well as attending Catechism for 4 years), I never heard any Scripture during a sermon other than a brief verse from one of the NT Gospels. Never was any Old Testament scripture ever uttered.
#91. To: Liberator (#83)
Should break more theater attendance records as Hollywood continues to hate on Gibson.
#92. To: Liberator, Vatican II Beatniks, TooConservative, redleghunter (#81)
By my end days of attending Mass they'd even brought in folk guitarists to perform the music instead of the tradition pipe organ, which definitely signaled a different direction.
CMRI: A Traditional Catholic Religious Congregation
#93. To: hondo68 (#92)
(Edited)
The sedevacantists are right, Francis is a usurper. FAKE pope!
CMRI: A Traditional Catholic Religious Congregation
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