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Bang / Guns
See other Bang / Guns Articles

Title: Pittsburgh Murder Conviction Shows Why Being Afraid Doesn’t Make It Self-Defense
Source: Bearing Arms
URL Source: https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/ ... conviction-illustrates-hammer/
Published: Jan 28, 2018
Author: Tom Knighton
Post Date: 2018-01-30 05:35:58 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 1886
Comments: 24

When you talk about self-defense shooting, the phrase “I was in fear of my life” gets thrown around a lot. Some will even try and argue that you can use that argument to justify almost any shooting, that as long as you can say you were scared then a jury will let you off the hook.

Which, of course, is complete and total bovine excrement.

Don’t believe me? Tell it to this guy.

A ride-share van passenger convicted of murder in the shooting death of a man outside a Pittsburgh club has been sentenced to 15 to 30 years in prison.

Thirty-eight-year-old Derek Vasos testified that he was “scared to death” when he shot 28-year-old Donald Ketter Jr. early on Feb. 5 outside the Carrick Literary Club. He said Ketter appeared to be in a rage and seemed to have something in his hands. At Thursday’s sentencing, the judge said that Ketter posed no danger.

If he was “scared to death,” why was he convicted?

Well, the story is sparse, but it appears that the fear was all in Vasos’s head.

But Judge Cashman discounted those claims.

“There was no danger you were in. You weren’t going to suffer serious bodily injury or death,” the judge said.

At trial, testimony showed that Vasos had gotten into an Uber after leaving the after-hours Carrick Lit Club early in the morning of Feb. 5.

As the Uber was pulling away on Copperfield Avenue, its path was blocked by Mr. Ketter, who was standing in the middle of the street blocking traffic.

Vasos, who was sitting in the Uber’s front, passenger seat, honked the car’s horn, but Mr. Ketter didn’t move.

Vasos testified that Mr. Ketter appeared to be in a rage, took off his belt and wrapped it around his hand in what he interpreted as a threat. As Mr. Ketter approached Vasos’ window, Vasos said he pulled out his legally possessed gun and fired once out of fear. He then fled in the Uber, eventually turning himself in hours later.

The fact that Vasos left the scene probably didn’t help his case.

However, the real deciding factor was probably the fact that, as things stood, the worst he was going to get was a butt whooping. In almost no state are you justified in using lethal force to stop a butt whooping.

Vasos may well have been terrified. I’m not going to dispute that.

However, for lethal force to be justified, it needs to pass the reasonable man test. Would a reasonable man believe there is a threat of serious bodily harm or even death. While I don’t want to get in a scrap with an enraged guy who has wrapped his fist in a belt, that doesn’t justify an armed response in and of itself.

At least, that’s what the jury found.

This is an important thing to keep in mind when you’re talking about an armed response. You need to understand what may or may not be considered justification for lethal force. Just saying you’re scared isn’t enough, nor should it be.

 


Poster Comment:

Different rules apply for cops.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 11.

#3. To: Deckard (#0)

In almost no state are you justified in using lethal force to stop a butt whooping.

How do we know this maniac was going to stop with a butt whooping?

The guy was "in a rage" and "standing in the middle of the street blocking traffic". He took off his belt (a lethal weapon) and approached the car.

Unless you started the fight, why should any armed individual have to tolerate a butt whooping? Bad ruling.

misterwhite  posted on  2018-01-30   10:01:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: misterwhite (#3)

The guy was "in a rage" and "standing in the middle of the street blocking traffic". He took off his belt (a lethal weapon) and approached the car.

And the shooter was inside the car,shooting out the window.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-01-30   10:16:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: sneakypete (#7) (Edited)

The guy was "in a rage" and "standing in the middle of the street blocking traffic". He took off his belt (a lethal weapon) and approached the car.
As Mr. Ketter approached Vasos’ window, Vasos said he pulled out his legally possessed gun and fired once out of fear.
And the shooter was inside the car,shooting out the window.
Uh, let’s see how being inside the car with the window rolled up protects someone from rage.

Sitting in a car with the window rolled up is no protection, the man in this video had a baton….the man in the article had a belt with a buckle that would do the same thing …

Gatlin  posted on  2018-01-30   14:48:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Gatlin (#10) (Edited)

Sitting in a car with the window rolled up is no protection,

It is if the car is running. He is shielded and can just put the car in gear and drive off.

You NEVER kill anyone as long as there are any other options available to you.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-01-30   15:02:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 11.

#12. To: sneakypete (#11)

It is if the car is running. He is shielded and can just put the car in gear and drive off.

You NEVER kill anyone as long as there are any other options available to you.

Bullshit.

I have just PROVEN to you with videos that a car window is NO shield.

Furthermore, the article stated traffic was BLOCKED so the Uber driver was not able to JUST put the car in gear and drive off.

You should NEVER make assumptions when all the facts are not available to you. Which brings me back to the point I was making on another post when you jumped in off my topic …

Gatlin  posted on  2018-01-30 15:22:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: sneakypete (#11)

It is if the car is running. He is shielded and can just put the car in gear and drive off.

This assumes he was truly shielded. He was certainly reasonably shielded, but that assumes all the guy had was a fist wrapped in a belt. If he had a gun instead or in addition, then obviously a rolled up window would do no good.

To that end, this seems to have been his undoing:

Vasos testified that Mr. Ketter appeared to be in a rage, took off his belt and wrapped it around his hand in what he interpreted as a threat.

He admitted in court he knew the guy had a fist wrapped in a belt, ergo, that he had no gun in at least that hand. It seems he had no way to legitimize in court any fear that the guy had a gun.

Of course if he said the guy reached f or his waistband that may have gotten him off as it gets cops off all the time, it works well as that's the natural place for any person's hand to be more often than not.

You NEVER kill anyone as long as there are any other options available to you.

A good rule. But yes, in spite of what I said, the case does show a double standard between cops and civs. Cops are no doubt well versed in the importance of articulating a true fear of getting killed, whereas civs are not.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-01-30 19:51:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 11.

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